Shock recommendation

[Jeremy]

I just finished the vette brakes mono spring conversion and found that the factory second gen shocks are too long. In looking at shock specs, it looks like first gen f body shocks should be short enough to work.

For those that are wondering I need a shock with a compressed length of 9 inches or a little less with the suspension at full compression. Max length at full drop is 11 1/2 inches.

I was quite pleased with the Edelbrock shocks but I have read some posts that say Edelbrocks don't work as well with stiffer springs. If someone can comment on the suitability of these shocks with stiffer springs, please do so. VBP said that the Edelbrock shocks should work real well with the setup FWIW. I haven't been able to drive the car more than in and out of the garage due to the weather, but the VBP spring is a little stiffer.

I am running some old cheapo shocks right now to make sure there are no other bugs.

Give me some recommendations in the under $150/ea range.

I did also speak to VBP about the shock length and they seemed genuinely suprised. George had never heard of a problem with stock shocks. I wonder if anyone else had run the suspension through its full range of moton before hooking up the spring to find this out. The other thing I found out was the Edlebrock shocks were a little longer compressed than the parts store cheapies. Probably would never matter in a stock setup but I thought I would share as it might matter on a lowered car.

I wonder if the complaints of ride harshness on the VBP setup might be due to shocks bottoming out over some bumps?

While checking things out I put a level on the shocks with the car at a simulated ride height and the shock was vertical so I was happy to see that. I will also be checking the distance from the pivot point to see if VBP changed the motion ratio.

[Jeremy]

I got a chance to drive the car today in town and a few miles at highway speeds. The ride is quite acceptable and it actually takes bumps better.

I definitely need to get the shock issue sorted out as the el cheapos do some weird things with the combo. Bumps below 20 mph and the car is real bouncing feeling, not harsh, just under damped? Between 20 and 40 and things are pretty smooth. Bumps to one side only pass without issue, although bumps to both wheels are a little bouncy. Above 40 and it is real smooth. I was very pleased with the handling as it is much quicker to respond than the factory setup.

The car feels much lighter as well. I did raise the front ride height 3/8 inch and I am sure that has something to do with it, but I would guess the 33 pound weight savings helped as well.

Please chime in with shock recommendations as I know I will need something decent to get things dialed in. I am leaning towards Konis right now, although I would like to know how you adjust them as the setup makes removing shocks to adjust them a pain.

[SHANE 73Z]

Jeremy,

I have kinda had the same feeling with the Edelbrock shocks. The front feels way underdamped especially on the rebound side of travel.

I also ran into the same thing when I installed my circle track springs & adjusters. When I first dropped the car, it was about 2" too low and it blew the seals on the driver side shocks. I believe I have heard people comment that an S-10 shock is a good alternative for length. I dont know what you might find for valving in them though.

Shane

[jeffandre]

I installed the VBP mono spring setup over 10 years ago and had to install 'bushings' in between the bottom of the lower control arm and the shock mounts bar to essentially allow my stock length Koni shocks to fit properly. The bushings are made out of stainless tubing, cut to a length between 0.75-1.0 inches in length. I used longer grade 8 bolts to bolt the shocks into place with no problems. I have heard that the standard Bilstein's are the shocks of choice for the mono spring system, straight from VBP when I was researching this very topic 2 years ago, so I will likely purchase t a set at some point (less than $300 for a set of 4).

Apparently the standard Bilstein's (not the heavy duty versions) have the best affordable off-the-shelf design for our mono spring system. I am sure that some double-adjustable shocks would probably be the ultimate, however getting them set right would require magic and luck for most of us.

[chicane67]

X2.... Bilsteins.

[Jeremy]

Spacers between the shock and the a arm was my next step. I am glad you gave me your lengths as I was looking at 3/4 to start with. I am actually running some parts store cheapies right now. I was going to try the Edelbrocks with spacers next week and see how that goes.

Bilsteins were coming up high on my list although I haven't been able to find out for sure if they make one for a first gen f body as the length should be a little shorter.

I hope to get out and drive the car again today, a little longer this time. So far I am quite pleased with the system. The ride is much better than I thought given reviews that I have read. Once I get the shocks dialed in, it should be great.

[Jeremy]

I got a chance to drive the car on my "test" loop today which is a 10 mile round trip with a mix of city streets, county highways, and interstate.

I was actually very pleased with the ride. I actually think the ride is much much improved over the ws6 springs. Now it is probaby not fair as the factory springs were 26 years old, but the ride is very nice.

The creaks over driveway cuts are gone as well and the suspension seems to track over bumps better. Road noise seems less as well. The fiberglass spring was touted to soak up irregularities and vibrations and I believe it after today's drive.

Handling is phenominal. I would have thought increasing the front stiffness would have made it understeer badly, but it is more neutral. It is so balanced and goes right where it is pointed. Turn in is a hair slow but I have not double checked the alignment so there maybe something there, although the car drives great.

[Marcus SC&C]

Jeremy, ditto on the Bilsteins. If the rate of the mono spring is higher than your WS6 springs you might want to try the revalved Hotchkis Bilsteins shocks. They`re only a little stiffer but it should still help.
Adj. shocks would really be the way to go though so you can tune them to your taste and driving style. QS1 16 way adj. Varishocks are $177ea.,not too much over your target price and well worth it for the performance gain and tunability. The 1st gen fronts are 12.55" OAL, 4.25" travel and 8.30" compressed.
If the springs raised the ride height 3/8" you lost a little + caster,just a tiny bit of - camber (probably 1/8* or less) and gained some toe in (again probably very little) which might explain some of the slower turn in. The rest may be the additional springs rate. Understeer doesn`t always show up as a gross balance change it can also deaden turn in. If you`re running poly bushings with the front bar you might want to try rubber at least on the end links to take the edge off the bar sometimes that`ll help turn in if the front roll rate is a little high. Once you check the alignment you may not need to though. Mark SC&C

[Jeremy]

Marcus,

Thanks for the replies. I figured I lost a little on my alignment.

I called Bilstein today and was blown away by their customer service. Through my research I had found that a 69 camaro shock should have fit my length requirements (it was also listed for 70-76 camaro so that helped). I asked them for the compressed length and they came back in seconds with it. I explained to them that I was working on non stock application and needed a shock to fit a GM application with a compressed height between 8.5 and 9 inches. They found a chevelle application and I asked them to compare the valving as I needed the one with higher rebound damping. Within seconds again, they told me that the camaro application had slightly higher rebound damping.

By far some of the best customer service/technical support I had ever gotten from a large manufacturer. If their shocks were as good as advertised I will be quite pleased.

I ended up ordering the shocks for a 69 Camaro and had them shipped next day. They should be here on Monday and I am off so I should get them installed.

The only downside is I received an email from a Bilstein shock dealer after I placed my order stating that the lower t-bar might be different. Every GM car from 66 to 80 that I have worked on seemed to have the same lower shock mount. Can anyone confirm? I will check them off course before I mount them, but it will drive me crazy all weekend wondering if they are the same.

[6'9"Witha69]

The Bilstein T bars don't even line up on GW control arms unlike most other brands. A little filing to elongate the hole in the cross bar made 'em fit. If they are too far off to fit for you, see if the cross bars for your existing shocks will fit and swap 'em in.

[Jeremy]

My order from summit came today and they shipped the wrong shocks. They are Bilsteins but I have no idea what application they would be for. The length is way to long to be a front shock and it has a t bar on one end and a stud at 90 degrees to the shock on the other.

Since I had time on my hands I mounted the Edelbrocks with some 3/4 inch spacers. Everything fits this way and I have 95 % full suspension travel. It is still slightly bouncy at slow speeds but only when both wheels encounter a bump. I think that has something to do with the mono leaf. The spring rate feels real mild on the lowest setting. I can move the suspension fairly easily by pushing on the fender. In driving it is not harsh over most bumps. There are some bumps that are harsh before and after the suspension change so I am not blaming that on the suspension.

It handles wonderfully. By far the best handling car I have driven. The highway ride is amazingly smooth. I am probably most suprised with the decreased road noise. The car seems sooo much quiter.
I'll probably try the poly spring to arm bushings to see if the rubber are loading and unloading enough to add to the bouncy problem. It takes about 10 minutes to switch them out so it is no big deal to go back. The setup is very repeatable in its setup. I set the end bolts to the same length as before and the ride height was exactly the same as before switching shocks (you have to remove the spring to swap shocks).

I'll drive the car at least a month with the Edelbrock shocks and continue to research shock options. I'll see if I can get the shock values from Bilstein for 4th-6th gen vettes as they use a similar setup. I figure you don't hear about vettes being bouncy, so whatever they use must control the fiberglass spring very well. I'll probably research the vari shocks a bit more and see what they have to offer. I like the adjustable rebound and their's looks pretty easy to adjust.

Overall I am very pleased with the setup. I love the highway ride and the town ride is very liveable and better than the stock setup.

[Jeremy]

Marcus,

Thanks for the tip on the rubber end link bushings. I swapped them in today and the turn in was much crisper. The ride seamed better as well as the bouncy feeling being drastically diminished.

It gets aligned tomorrow.

[Marcus SC&C]

No problem. I`m glad it worked out for you. :twothumbs It`s amazing how a little tweak here and there can make a big difference sometimes. Mark SC&C

[Jeremy]

With respect to shocks, I will pass on something I read on another board. Several people reported that the Edelbrocks can be choppy during cold weather and that the Bilsteins don't have the same problem.

I can't comment on the Bilsteins yet, but I might be inclined to believe it about the Edelbrocks. The first few times I drove my car with the VBP suspension and the Edelbrocks, the weather was 20 to 30 degrees. I picked it up from the alignment shop today and it was 55 to 60 degrees. The car ran super smooth with no bounce or choppiness, so there may be something to what I read.

One other quesion, with my current setup, the max caster they could get was 2.7 degrees keeping camber in spec. Going with the arms from Marcus seems like the only way I can get more. I am not opposed to this, but I am looking for opinions on how much I will notice a caster change from 2.7 degrees to 4.5-5 degrees before I spend any money.

[chicane67]

2.7 to 4.5-5 is going to make a very noticeable difference in high speed stability and incrrease the road feel in the steering wheel itself.

I'd say... its time for some arms. 5-6* would even be better for some alignment configurations... and maybe it will for the VBP stuff as well.

[Jeremy]

The transverse spring is supposed to be 80% stiffer in roll than a comparable rate coil spring. Apparently the vette engineers were trying to do away with a front bar and use the unique properties of the transverse leaf.

I thought I would test this theory and loosened my endlinks (rubber) as much as I could just before they would rattle. I drove the car this way and it was wonderfull. The car was very balanced and ride over bumps was greatly improved. I don't know how much the front bar is working now.

I will probably remove the endlinks and see how things go. I would definitely say I will be at least moving to a smaller front bar to balance things out and smooth out the ride. It will also reduce the weight on the front.

I'll keep everyone posted, but so far the possibilities look good.

[Jeremy]

I was bored today and figured I would play with the spring rate on the VBP setup. It took 30 minutes or less to change the rate and I went from the softest to the middle setting.

The ride is so much better. It felt like the first setting may have been bottoming out suspension travel. Bumps are much softer and the car is much controlled. The bouncy feeling is much less as well, but I figured that might happen. It also made the front end a little stiffer in turns but I too would have guessed that given a stiffer spring rate.

The system is definitely adjustable and easy to change. I can't wait until the Bilsteins come in to see how that affects things.

[81Nascar]

Sounds pretty awesome.

[Jeremy]

The Hotchkis Bilsteins for a 69 Camaro came today and I got them installed. The lower mounts needed a little massaging as they were a little narrow, but otherwise no problems. They were the perfect length and I now have full suspension travel.

With the springs set on medium, the ride was incredible. Bumps that used to make me slow down and cringe pass without any fuss. The car feel so light and responsive. Turn in is very crisp and this is still with the endlinks as loose as I can go. The next step is to remove them and see if I even need a front bar.

On bumps were both tires hit the bump at the same time, it feels like I could use just a tad more rebound control, but it is not uncomfortable at all. The car never feels out of control. It rides so smooth that I will most likely try the stiffest setting on the spring.

I am truly amazed the difference a set of shocks can make. It makes me wonder how well the Hotchkis Bilsteins would work on the rear with the stock leaves.

[6'9"Witha69]

I am truly amazed the difference a set of shocks can make. It makes me wonder how well the Hotchkis Bilsteins would work on the rear with the stock leaves.Shocks make all the difference in the world. Glad to hear your combo is coming out right.

[jeffandre]

The Hotchkis Bilsteins for a 69 Camaro came today and I got them installed. The lower mounts needed a little massaging as they were a little narrow, but otherwise no problems. They were the perfect length and I now have full suspension travel.

With the springs set on medium, the ride was incredible. Bumps that used to make me slow down and cringe pass without any fuss. The car feel so light and responsive. Turn in is very crisp and this is still with the endlinks as loose as I can go. The next step is to remove them and see if I even need a front bar.

On bumps were both tires hit the bump at the same time, it feels like I could use just a tad more rebound control, but it is not uncomfortable at all. The car never feels out of control. It rides so smooth that I will most likely try the stiffest setting on the spring.

I am truly amazed the difference a set of shocks can make. It makes me wonder how well the Hotchkis Bilsteins would work on the rear with the stock leaves.

Jeremy, any word on the trying the stiffer spring setting yet? I ran both the middle and stiffer setting, never the softest one. How are the shocks doing now that you have had more time with them? I plan on getting the Bilsteins too, looks like 69 Camaro fronts, and probably 70 Camaro rears (have VBP rear springs, 200#).

I had at least 3 different front coils setups, and 2 different leaf setups before switching everything to the VBP epoxy springs. The control, quickness, predictability, and overall comfort with relatively high spring rates has been phenomenal. It has been a while since the car has seen the road, but I know it will see limited time this summer. Marcus has me thinking about adjustable shocks again, we'll see...

[Jeremy]

I haven't had enough opportunity to drive the car much with all the snow we have been getting lately. It actually feels a little under sprung still. I did get a chance to tighten the end links on the front sway bar and see how much difference that made. I was expecting mucho understeer and it actually tightened things up a bit, but it still feels pretty balanced around town.

The shocks are definitely worth the money. Even with 3/4 inch spacers under the Edelbrocks, I am sure I was bottoming the shocks over certain bumps adding to the harshness. With the shorter shocks, I could get full movement of the suspension when I tested.

Before the shock change, tight end links made the car under steer so bad it was not enjoyable to drive. I don't know enough about shocks to say why it is more balanced now with a tight sway bar but it is.

If ride comfort is important I recommend the rubber cushions to mount the spring to the arm. I tried the poly and they were noticeably more harsh. I would say that the rubber compresses a bit at first and softens road impacts. Most of the time rubber compressing is a bad thing but in this case I think it is beneficial. I would say that it acts like a progressive spring and the first 1/4 inch or so compresses at a much lower rate than the leaf spring. Since the movement is controlled by the geometry of the arm and the shock, it isn't changing any alignment specs, just the level of resistance.

I agree with you that the springs react very quickly. I think the ride has actually improved on my car and it just feels lighter, although loosing weight up front never hurts.

I do plan to weld the mounts to the subframe and gusset everything where I can to make up for the material I removed. I hope to add composite leafs this summer or fall. How do you like the 200# rate for the rear? I was leaning towards the 150 but VBP does not list this anymore, just the 200.

[jeffandre]

The 200# rear springs were my first VBP parts, followed the the front spring setup a few years later. I love them, they replaced 160# Rancho leafs and were tighter and more comfortable, with less road noise and harshness. The rear reacts so fast and smooth that I was actually able to do scary moves under extreme pressure with the same reaction and predictability my buddies Porsche 911 has. Of course he can beat me in a race, but I can stick to him like glue on the freeway offramps. Same thing with another guy who had a serious 944 Turbo. As long as I had speed heading into a turn, I could plant on his rear and push.

I'll get enough ride comfort with the Del-a-lum bushings that replaced the poly's int he VBP control arms. I also welded the front spring mount to the subframe, didn't like the bolt setup.

My memory of highway driving before the VBP springs was that I had to hit about 80 before the car felt right (slalom front coils, Rancho 160# leafs). After the VBP springs were installed it handled much better and felt right at regular freeway speeds.

[Jeremy]

I agree about the road noise. It was remarkable how much less noise the transverse leaf transmits, even with solid bushings in the arms.

Glad to hear you like the rear springs. I had thought about flex a form springs but it sounds like I will stick with VBP. If you don't mind, could you measure from the ground to the top of the rear fender arch? I would also need to know your tire size. I am looking to see how the ride height with the springs will compare to my current height as I really like it.

[jeffandre]

I agree about the road noise. It was remarkable how much less noise the transverse leaf transmits, even with solid bushings in the arms.

Glad to hear you like the rear springs. I had thought about flex a form springs but it sounds like I will stick with VBP. If you don't mind, could you measure from the ground to the top of the rear fender arch? I would also need to know your tire size. I am looking to see how the ride height with the springs will compare to my current height as I really like it.

Jeremy, my fender arch is different than yours, closer to the ground by 2+ inches (Camaro). I have 345/30/19's, and the top of the tire is just out of view when looking at the tire/fender lip area from the same level. The front spring eye is moved inward, and a bit lower than stock. The rear spring eye is also moved inward (not as much as the front), and higher up as it is riding in a slider, instead of on a shackle. I am running 2" lowering blocks at this time. I expect the car to drop a little when it is fully back together, between 1/4 and 1/2 inch. I cannot recall where my rear was when I had the springs in the stock mounting locations, but I think I had 2" lowering blocks and still wanted to go lower. The VBP springs brought the rear up too high for me. Here's a few pics of where the rear ride height is now:

http://new.photos.yahoo.com/[email protected]/album/576460762323338225/photo/294928803274228509/15
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/[email protected]/album/576460762323338225/photo/294928803274229073/16
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/[email protected]/album/576460762323338225/photo/294928803274229688/17
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/[email protected]/album/576460762323338225/photo/294928803274230319/18
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/[email protected]/album/576460762323338225/photo/294928803274231043/19

[Jeremy]

I got a chance to change the springs to the stiffest setting. It took about 20 minutes. With practice I am getting real quick at it. The car road great, the best that it ever has. It is very responsive yet the car stays level at all times. Before the conversion, it seemed to "bob" a lot more with road dips. It also tracks much much better, although I still need to rebuild my rag joint.

It is not harsh at all. Turn in is real sharp and it handles extremely well. The steering is nice and heavy without feeling sluggish. It understeers a bit, but it balances out real nicely with a little throttle input.

I will probably try pro-touringf-body's rear sway bar struts as they are supposed to be a little stiffer than the factory ones. This should dial in a bit of oversteer to help balance things out.

jeffandre,

Thanks for the pics. When I looked at the arch in relationship to the body line I could see the difference as I had never noticed it before. Yours give me at least something to look it and get a rough idea.

[Jeremy]

I am still running the springs at the stiffest setting. I replaced the rubber mounts with the poly to see what difference that made. It really helped with the remaining bounciness. I did not notice any difference in ride harshness. My wife rode in it for the first time yesterday and noticed the lack of road noise and thought it rode better.

[jeffandre]

I am still running the springs at the stiffest setting. I replaced the rubber mounts with the poly to see what difference that made. It really helped with the remaining bounciness. I did not notice any difference in ride harshness. My wife rode in it for the first time yesterday and noticed the lack of road noise and thought it rode better.

What rubber mounts did you replace? The end mounts are poly on mine, but there I believe there is rubber in the slide assemblies (for adjusting spring rate). Did your shocks come with rubber or poly? I shoudl receive mine this week (thanks to GP Superstore).

[Jeremy]

I ordered my kit with rubber and poly spring to arm bushings and had been trying the rubber ones.

I don't recall what type of bushings came with the Bilsteins. I am pretty sure I used the rubber bushings from my Edelbrocks.

[jeffandre]

I ordered my kit with rubber and poly spring to arm bushings and had been trying the rubber ones.

I don't recall what type of bushings came with the Bilsteins. I am pretty sure I used the rubber bushings from my Edelbrocks.

Cool, I am using the same setups, so I will keep everything as is!

[Jeremy]

The shocks are proving to be very sensitive to temp changes. It was 73 today when I went for a test drive over my normal test loop. There was only one section of road where it felt underdamped. I would say when the temp hits 80 and above I should be right where I want it with the spring on the lowest setting.

From some research I have done, this is not uncommon for gas charged shocks, I have just never noticed it on a factory setup. I would venture to say that it is more sensitive to changes due to the reduced weight.

[Jeremy]

The Hotchkiss Bilsteins worked well for most driving but I wanted more. I just got my varishock double adjustables today. I can't wait to get them in and see how they work. I may even have to knock them out tonight after the little one goes to sleep.

I'll keep you updated on how they work, but they looked great in the spun aluminum. The instructions were well written with great diagrams. All of the hardware and associated pieces are definitely beefy.

[Jeremy]

First impression is that these shocks are awesome.

It took about 1.5 hours to get the swapped out and the worst was figuring out how I was going to mount the bottom. SC&C recommended on top of the arm but due to the construction of the VBP arm, I would have had to do a lot of fitting to the front side of the cross bar.

Since the lower mount is three piece, I disassembled it and slid the eye through the arm and re assembled. This proved the ticket and it mounted up perfectly.

While I was at it I checked total wheel travel and I have 5 1/4 inches.

I checked with Bilstein and the Hotchkiss shocks were 1.81 times stiffer in rebound than compression. Varishock recommended starting on 3 and working from there. I put the compression on 3 and since I needed more rebound than the Bilsteins set the rebound to 6.

On my normal "test" circuit it road like a new car. Bumps were soaked up and no "bouncing."

Two bumps in 10 miles felt a little soft on rebound but the ride was so soft, yet controlled I am leary of going stiffer. The nice thing is I can try and go back. One on ramp at speed used to feel real jittery and it was so smooth now.

Turn in is amazingly quick now even though I backed of the tension on the sway bar endlinks. The front end does not roll at all, or at least it does not feel like it. The car is a little tail happy now but not unnerving.

If anyone considers the VBP setup, go with this shocks as they let you dial in the unique properties of the suspension. I am so happy with it that I was others were closer so I could let them ride in it. It is so much better than the factory setup.

[DarkoNova]

Any pics of the springs? I remember looking for VBP back when this thread was started and couldn't find anything other than Vette parts (obviously, lol), so I'm wondering whether they make these springs anymore? :confused:

Matt

[Jeremy]

They still make them and they are back listed in their latest catalog. I'll try to post some pics in the next few days.

[Jeremy]

These shocks are friggin amazing. I have had time to play with the adjustments and there is a noticeable difference between settings. I played with going softer on compression and it made things worse. I am at 4 on compression and 8 on rebound. I love to drive my car. Bumps are smoother and the handling gets better with every tweak.

I'll never get it dialed in to its maximum potential as I will never see a track, but it will be one heck of a street car. I really believe I 'll get the combo of ride and handling that I am after.

I'll have to tweak the rear at some point to get it to better match the front.

[DarkoNova]

You got them for all 4 corners? Or just the front? I'm starting to think I should get some of these. I hate going over bumps in my car. 600 lb/in springs make it about as tough as running a solid suspension with no springs or shocks. :scared: :seizure:

Did you get the single or double adjustable?

Matt

[Jeremy]

I have the double adjustables for the front only. The rears are quickly becoming a want for the rear, though.

From what I have found shocks will do wonders for your ride quality. I have played with these a bit and found that going stiffer on compression actually improved ride quality. I ran them softer from my baseline and things got worse.

When I think back, impact harshness was terrible with the cheap shocks and not much better with the Edelbrocks. The Hotchkiss Bilsteins were much better, but the Varishocks have improved the ride so much. I will continue to tune until I get the ride I am looking for but so far so good. I enjoy driving it so much now that I look for excuses to drive it. I even purposely drove in the rain three times yesterday because it is that much fun and the car had only seen rain on trips in the past.

[DarkoNova]

Awesome info, thanks. :)

I'll have to try and work them into my budget, heh.

Matt

[Jeremy]

I set them on 5 C and 8 R today. The ride is now as good as my 06 Taurus or 05 Crown Vic around town. On the curves there is no comparison. Real large bumps still give a hint of bounce but joints in pavement, even if they aren't level pass without notice. Even the factory suspension didn't like joints in the pavement. I actually find myself trying to hit reasonable bumps to see just how well they are soaked up.

I got adjusting the shocks down to an art now as I don't get the slightest bit dirty. It takes less than 30 seconds to do both sides.

The car is now starting to understeer a bit which is what I would've expected adding so much more roll resistance to the front. Up until now it has been real tail happy. I am very pleased with this as the car is much more predictable.

It is raining pretty good hear and the roads are real wet. I was turning a corner and the rear got loose (not expected as I was starting in 2nd) and the car was very balanced and predictable. Before if the rear lost traction it wanted to snap around .

I plan to talk to VBP and pass on my results to them. Shock tuning turns this setup into a different animal and really does away with the gremlins others have reported. I really believe they should team up with Varishock and sell these as a part of the kit or at least an upgrade.

[jeffandre]

Now I wish I waited, oh well, I will use my new Bilsteins for a while. I look forward to any updates you have as I was leaning towards the Varishocks but wussed out at the last minute...

We need some video of your car carving corners or cones. You really should look into getting it on a track someday!

[Jeremy]

Just to update my findings in case it will help anyone with a VBP setup.

I had run as high as 7 C 12 R and the front was very tight, but it was no where near matched to the rear. The front did not want to roll and the back did. From the driver's seat I could feel both ends fighting each other. Over dips it felt like there was no suspension movement and the corner hitting the dip would drop harshly.

This got me thinking and I backed off the rebound to 10. I then started paying attention to dips. On the front side of dip, the nose would drop and follow the dip and really want to hit hard on the back side coming out of the dip. I would then drive my wife's Taurus through the same dip and the nose would stay level. I started thinking that the suspension may not be able to drop fast enough with the shocks so tight on rebound. I then remembered my research on transverse springs that they don't store energy like coil springs. I figured that this meant they may need less rebound damping.

Since the shocks are easily adjustable, I tried 7 C and 7 R. You could actually feel the difference going into dips. The nose stayed more level and things were much softer. I tried 8 C and 6 C and the suspension followed the road even better. In turns now, the front and rear feel a lot more balanced. They seem to roll? the same or a lot closer now. I can actually drive the car harder this way with a lot more confidence.

There is no more bouncy feeling left. I think it feels a lot like a factory engineered car in its ride and handling. I'll see how I like my current settings after a longer time, but if they hold, I can see why the system never worked well with off the shelf shocks as I understand they generally run soft compression and high rebound.
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[Jeremy]

The shock settings are holding true in that the setup likes more compression control than rebound. I moved the spring to the middle setting and am running 13 C and 8 R and it rides incredibly well.

I got a chance to drive a c6 convertible today to see how close I was coming in the ride and handling. I drove both on a 20-25 minute drive on a mix of city and highway driving.

The owner recommended the competition setting and that is where the car was set for the drive. The ride was very nice but I felt the rear was a little more skittish. The vette seemed a little choppy over one section of road that my car was smoother on. Big dips that hit both front wheels the same, the vette was a little more composed than my car. The steering on the vette was a little heavier than mine and both tracked equally well. Both tended to follow some road ruts/crown slightly.

Turn in was very similar between both cars, although the vettes may have been a hair quicker. I think I can improve in this area with a more agressive alignment.

Brake performance is nearly the same, although the vette feel is much better than mine, particularly in the initial application of the brakes.

Wind buffeting in the vette was much worse than my car with the T Tops out. Much over 70 was annoying to me in the vette and I can cruise 85-90 in mine and the wind doesn't beat me up nearly as bad.

Around town it is easy to feel the difference in torque. My car required much less thottle input to get up to 45-60 in traffic. Part throttle response was better. Full throttle, however was a different story. The vette really comes to life. It was an automatic and the gear splits were perfect. It picked up speed quickly. I was suprised at how much weight it transfered as the front end really picked up adding to the sensation of speed. In a 1/4 mile run I would probably say the vette would get me at the end of the track. Around town it was more fun to drive my car with the great torque.

I know I got a little off track comparing all aspects of the vette and my old TA. I meant to just compare the suspensions, but I thought others might enjoy the comparison. The VBP system seems to get a lot of criticism but I was amazed how close it comes to the c6 in terms of ride and handling on real world streets/driving. On a track it may not be as close, but I don't think I'll see any track time. On normal roads with other traffic present it equals it well.

It was also gratifying seeing my work come close to vette performance for a lot less money (more if you count my time).

[Jeremy]

I thought I would share my latest finding on the VBP setup. I removed the jounce bumpers and it was such an amazing difference that I had to start all over on my shock tuning.

The ride is getting very soft and the handling is amazing. I am also amazed at the lack of rattles now with nothing more than removing the bumpers and re tuning the shocks. I even stepped back up to the middle spring rate and it is still softer than it has ever been.

I covered everything a lot more in depth over at Nastyz28.com. With the jounce bumpers removed I would be curious to see how an off the shelf shock would work now.

[jeffandre]

What are the jounce bumpers? The hard rubber that cushions between the upright bolt and the spring eye and lower control arm? I gotta check the Nasty28 site out, haven't been there in years.

Do you still have your Hotchkis Bilstein's? Try them out for us!

[Jeremy]

They are the triangle shaped pieces of rubber bolted to the top of the lower a arm. They are supposed to be a progressive rate to keep the arm from bottoming. With the spring rates this setup runs, I don't think this is a concern.

I don't have the Bilsteins anymore nor my Edelbrocks.

[Marcus SC&C]

I`m not typically a big fan of totally removing jounce bumpers but I DO like replacing them with more modern non rubber versions. The newer ones are made of an orange almost foamy material (softer than the old rubber ones) and tend to be much more gentle and progressive in nature. The ZQ8 jounce bumpers GM designed for the factory lowered S10 ZQ8 Extreme are direct fit for most older GM cars and work really well. GM PN#15989674 or 15956547, the second number should be slightly firmer. When installed these should almost touch the frame at ride height. They`re only about $10ea. so you don`t have much to loose by trying them. Mark SC&C

[Jeremy]

Thanks for the #'s for different bumpers, but the way the bumpers mount to the arm is not like any other I have seen. The top of the outside edge of the arm is threaded for 1/4 inch bolts and the bumper has a slot on each side of the rubber for the bolts to pass through.

I have really been playing with shock settings since removing the bumpers and am down to 0 C and 3 R and it rides great. It feels a little "heavier" but there is no springy feeling and no bounce at all. Handling is very confidence inspiring and I find I am driving faster than I think.

There is one on ramp that used to get the car pretty bouncy before and I was hitting it hard in fourth and by the time I glanced at the tach I was at redline (105 mph). It was pretty stable for the way the road is contoured and much faster than I have ever felt comfortable at before.

I also drove down the entrance to Lowe's which is about 300 yards of real bad washboard. No bouncy feeling at all. This used to bring out in bad motions in the suspension.

There are only two bumps that I have found now that I can't seem to get perfect suspension motion over, but it is controlled, just not as smooth as I would like.

[Jeremy]

I've continued to play with it as it felt a little heavy and numb at 0 C and 3 R. Where I have ended up is 1 R and 13 C. The car is very responsive and smooth over all road surfaces. There is no bounciness and the front end stays as level as the rear.

I am extremely pleased with the set up. With such soft rebound numbers, the inside front of the car wants to lift slightly transferring weight to the outside. The rear follows suit and it is very predictable and confidence inspiring to push. If the rebound is higher than 5 the car gets very tight on front and just not easy to drive. The steering feels heavier and the turn in is slower.

I strongly recommend anyone looking at the setup, figure on double adjustable shocks for the front as mandatory.

[jeffandre]

Jeremy,
How is the car doing? What settings are your front spring and shocks currently at? Did you do anything about the rear yet? I finally got my front suspension done, but still have the Bilstein's. It moves so easily I will move the front spring stiffness to the middle setting for now. Rear is very stiff, without shocks! I have the rear Bilstein's too, but need to modify my upper shock mount to give them more travel.

[Jeremy]

I've been running on the stiffest spring setting for over 3 months now and am really pleased with the ride. I have shock settings now at 0 compression and max rebound. There is no sense of vaulting and I haven't found any bumps that upset the car anymore. It is very stable and planted feeling. Turn in is very crisp, yet it tracks very well.

I may try the middle spring setting again for a comparison but am very very happy with the front end the way it is now. My wife really enjoys riding in the car and agrees that it feels pretty soft.

For the rear, I have added 150 pound VBP springs and am using Edelbrock IAS shocks. The rear springs were well worth the money as they ride improved nicely and it added some more spring rate. I think I need a little more shock but it isn't bad at all.

Overall the car kinda scares me, not in how it handles, but in how fast I catch myself going. It has more capability than I can safely explore on public streets. If I don't pay attention, I find myself going way too fast. The suspension is very composed, even over rough roads. I probably need to upgrade the brakes now to better match them to the speed potential of the suspension.

Overall I am very very happy with the system now. It took some time to get it to this point and shocks definitely make or brake the system. Who knows what would be possible with different start points for the valving in the varishocks. I would like to try even softer compression settings and stiffer rebound settings. With the range of settings more tuned to the VBP system, it may be possible of even more. From what I have found, the compression settings may not be soft enough for the lower spring rates and I can't tell if I need more rebound on the stiffest as I can't go any farther.

[jeffandre]

Jeremy,
Cool update! One of your posts below said 1 R and 13 C (from 7/26) and it had me really confused. I kept bouncing my suspension without the shocks installed and knew it had to have less compression and more rebound, so that is one of the reasons I asked for an update. It must have been a typo, whew!

On the front I am on the middle setting now, but with the GW bushings and having my front sway bar chassis mount bushings lubed it moves so easily it is remarkable. I will move it to the stiffest setting. I have the 200# rear VB leafs, which are very stiff.

I have the Hotchkis Bilstein's up front and went back to my Koni rears as they have less compression and a firmer rebound (when adjusted all the way) than the Hotchkis ones.

Good point about the adjustable shocks possibly needing more range. I guess when I am finally ready to buy them I will have to look into the actual compression and rebound data for all of the adjustable shocks out there.

What are your current alignment specs? How does it feel at freeway speeds?

[81Nascar]

Jeremy ,glad you upgraded to the rear springs. Night and day isn't it? They have to be experienced. Mine are someof thefirst ones so I'm sure your's are much improved. You have taken things much further than me. I just might have to update the nascar to the front system.:hmm: I think you stiffening up your car has helped alot as well. Way to go.

[Jeremy]

It wasn't a typo. I had tried everything including a lot of compression and no rebound. That's why it was so important for me to keep a log and drive the same roads at the same speeds to get accurate results on the changes. It was one little dip that kept me going as I never, until now, get it dialed in.

My alignment specs are:

Camber

[Jeremy]

My current alignment specs are

Camber -.4 L and -.2 R

Caster 2.7 L and 2.8 R

Toe .03 L and .02 R

It tracks nicely and I find myself cruising on the interstate at 85 - 95 before I realize it. To get any more caster I'll have to get different arms.

I love the fiberglass rear springs. The ride is soo soft and the lack of noise is truly amazing. The poly bushings in the shackles squeak but I would say that is because I am using the factory shackles which are cupped. I need to make some new ones that are flat and I bet that will help a lot. I had to use 1 inch lowering blocks to get the ride height back where I wanted it, but that may have something to do with using first gen springs (too good of a price to pass up).

I would like varishock double adjustables for the rear at some point. I am done for the time being on the suspension as I have some maintenance projects to do (replace heater core, fix the dome light as it doesn't come on with the switch and opening the driver's door, some paint chips, etc).

Mostly I am driving it and enjoying the heck out of it.

I would agree that the chassis stiffening probably helped a lot and made it easier to tune things as the suspension was doing more of the work than chassis flex.

[NOT A TA]

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