Bleeding help - dry system

[Chad-1stGen]

Hi all,

Trying to bleed the brakes on my 68 Camaro from scratch and so far it hasn't gone that smoothly.

Running a cast iron master cylinder 29969 casting which I belive is the early vet style booster, not sure of borse size.

aftermarket 5 port proportioning valve.

stock front disk
touring classis rear disk (C4 model)
Stock styled lines - 3/16 fronts, 1/4 front to rear, and 3/16 rears.

I bench bled the master cylinder using fittings with holes back into the resevoir. Took about 45 minutes but finally got all the air out.

Bleeding was done old fashioned way with two people and a clear line into a bottle of fluid.

Ok so I started bleeding the car (furthest wheel to closest wheel). Overall I haven't had to many problems with round 1 of bleeding. I did discover a few loose fittings that I had to tighten which caused the 1st wheel (passenger rear) to take a long time to bleed. I got fluid to the caliper pretty quick but took a ton of bleeding to get no air. Other 3 wheels went pretty quick.

After the last wheel I tried the pedal and it sinks right to the floor and provides very little brake pressure. I can spin a tire with the brakes applied no problem and if I spin a tire and then apply the brakes I hear the pads rub the rotor slightly but they don't even stop a free spinning tire.

Sooooooo. Should I continue bleeding this thing or check something else?

Thanks

[Tom Welch]

Check to see if the brake pedal pushrod is the correct length, also the bore size of the m/c may be wrong for the application. It may not move enough fluid. Are the rear brakes taking too much fluid? are the front and rear brakes compatible on the same brake system? Maybe Touring classics can provide some insight.

[Chad-1stGen]

I asked touring classics when I bought the kit and they seemed to think that it would move enough fluid. I decided to try bleeding some more and sure enough I got some some more air out and discovered that the banjo bolts for the hose to caliper are weeping fluid. Since I already cranked on em pretty good I got out my torque wrench and they are already at 55 lbs which sounds awefully high to me.

For now I think air is still the problem. Once bled I may still need to get an adjustable valve. It's a power car and the pushrood is the right lenght. booster and m/c were bought as a kit.

Thanks

[Chad-1stGen]

well bled a total of about 4 hours. 1.5 since the last leak was found. Still getting air and while the pedal is getting stiffer the rear brakes won't even stop the wheels from turning with the engine idling in gear.

Manual bleeding is over rated.

[Chad-1stGen]

Thought I had all the leaks. Bajo bolts on both rear calipers are still leaking. Tried 4 new copper crush washers from TC and they still leak. Man this sucks.

[Tom Welch]

Check the mating surfaces to make sure they are flat and smooth. make sure that the hoses are mounted correctly, some look like they fit either one side or the other but only 1 side is meant to be closest to the caliper mounting surface. If the banjo bolts still leak go to the auto parts store close to you and get some more. Or try the chevy dealer. Once the leaks are solved I bet that your brakes will be ok.

[Chad-1stGen]

Well I think I got the leaks solved. Has to sand the hell out of the lines. Absolutley terrible quality on the mating surfaces. Now it appears I have a bad master. Can't get all the air out of the system. had a pretty solid pedal that went soft without doing anything. pump the hell out of it and it will build pressure. Tried bleeding again and now after one or two pumps when I open the bleeder screw for another pump it sucks fluid back into the caliper.

[Tom Welch]

Chad, please explain your bleeding process.

[glock73110]

Chad it is possible to get the calipers on the wrong side are the bleeders on top

[Chad-1stGen]

Well I got the problem fixed and even drove the car around the block :) My first drive in the car ever!

The process I was using the bleed was the 2 man appoach. I say push and open the bleeder valve, close the valve and say release. repeat the process. had a bleeder kit with clear hose and bottle.

The problem was two fold. First getting the leaks fixed due to the poor finish on the mating surfaces of my brake lines. Second the master cyclinder that came in the kit purchased a few years ago was bad. Since a reman M/C was $19 I ended up buying one from the parts store, it was bad out of the box and wouldn't even bench bleed. Exchanged it and low and behold had the brakes bled in about 30 mins after installing the 3rd M/C.

Thanks for the help guys.

[chicane67]

Always.... always.... bench bleed a new master cylinder. It will pay dividends beyond belief.

Glad to hear you got everything worked out. Try the age old gravity bleeding from this point. Its work better then the two man rule.

[parsonsj]

Its work better then the two man rule.At least it's better than the husband/wife rule.

Actually, I'm now a big believer in Motive Products bleeders. Takes 10 minutes, no second person needed, no need to bench bleed masters, and you can change out all your fluid in no time. Awesome tool.

jp

[Rick Dorion]

At least it's better than the husband/wife rule.

Actually, I'm now a big believer in Motive Products bleeders. Takes 10 minutes, no second person needed, no need to bench bleed masters, and you can change out all your fluid in no time. Awesome tool.

jp

I too use the Motive or gravity method and it's worked well even on new systems.

I still remember the geyser when my wife stomped on the pedal before I had the lid back on the MC :)

[parsonsj]

my wife stomped on the pedal before I had the lid back on the MCAnd who was at fault? You, of course. I know that without any other information!

The Motive Bleeder is a great wife replacer for bleeding brakes and clutches. It does exactly what you tell it, it doesn't wander off when you're under the car, and suffers in silence when something goes wrong.

jp

[JEFFTATE]

The Motive Bleeder is a great wife replacer for bleeding brakes and clutches. It does exactly what you tell it, it doesn't wander off when you're under the car, and suffers in silence when something goes wrong.

jp[/quote]

Amen Brother !

[6'9"Witha69]

And who was at fault? You, of course. I know that without any other information!

The Motive Bleeder is a great wife replacer for bleeding brakes and clutches. It does exactly what you tell it, it doesn't wander off when you're under the car, and suffers in silence when something goes wrong.

jp:rotfl:


I needed one of those many times!:hammer:

[MonzaRacer]

OK as for bench bleeding the master cylinder try this, simply get plugs to fit the line holes and stroke the master cylinder slowly(take about 20 to 30 seconds to go down 1 in) and watch for bubbles coming out of the holes inside the master cylinderthen when it olny moves about 1/16th to 1/8th in your ready to put it on the car.
Then with one line open (i do the rear first) I open one bleeder and watch to see if thelevel goes down. As it goes down then afteryou start getting fluid at the open bleeder then open the other on the same axle, then when it starts moving fluid I will close that up and do the same on the front if possible (you can leave the front line off and the plug still in the master cyl. ) Then you go to the whell farthest from the master ,,,open the bleeder then have someone push slowly on the pedal till it stops, close bleeder, let up pedal, then do it at least 3 times and watch master cyl level while doing this. Then have pedal pumper pump the pedal ,not fast just 3 or 4 firm steady pumps and hold it andthen open a bleeder (farthest first) then afte getting sysstem bled hook up front and do it same way.
Then after doing this and thinking you have good pedal, let it set about 20 or 30 minutes and clean up, top off fluid then simply have the pumper get in and place foot on pedal and push , then open bleeder and have them hold it till you close bleeder.
Now if you want the faster approach, buy a Phoenix Injector and reverse bleed the system from the bleeders, air goes up so 2 little hoses in a bottle and simply pushing all the air up, then install the master cylinder and hook it up, tighten both lines then open both lines one turn of the wrench and have your pedal pusher push slowly so as to not spray the engine compartment down. then close them both, do it again and your done.
http://www.phxsyss.com/
These products flat out ROCK! I am on my second kit as the first just plain wore out and the new one gets left at work and I use it almost daily. And if you beat on your cars brakes regularly then brake flushing is a usefull tool and this is the tool i reverse bleed master cylinders with then with the accesories included you can do many things. It can also be set up for other fluids but I keep mine mainly for brakes but do use it some for vacuum work.
AND it really helps if you have a hydralic clutch and about 2 to 4 times a year you can flush the clutch system and keep that new clutch feel.
Hope this helps some people.
Lee