New markets

[Fuelie Fan]

Some of you know this, some of you don't, but I work for a fuel injection company. What I'm more sure of is that most of you haven't heard of us, and that's ok.

What we are looking for are some niche markets that the other aftermarket EFI companies haven't hit very hard. I'm probably posting on the wrong site, since high end cars are pretty well covered, but I know a lot of you play around with more than just big buck camaros and mustangs.

Generally, we try to target more towards people who are doing fuel injection for the first time, and want something easy to set up and get running, not somebody who needs 16 cylinder fuel trim and four stages of NOS.

So, hit us up with suggestions! Which groups of car owners (except the Yugo Club of america, they've learned to deal with neglect) is under-supported by the EFI aftermarket? Off road or on, 4 6 or 8 cylinder, We're even considering motorcycles (though Harleys actually have a few options already, as it turns out)

[Jagarang]

I'm not aware of any significant EFI bolt-ons for Ponchos. I did see one article a few years ago in Hot Rod? and FAST was mentioned but the intake had to be specially fabricated and it wasn't optimally thought out. Is Pontiac to close to what you consider "mainstream"?

[Drewhelm]

There's not enough support of the traditional Pontiac motors! Both V8 and OHC 6's. Some people have been able to utlize FAST and Holley setups but the person setting it up has to be pretty well versed in the process and an aftermarket intake has to be significantly modified.

I don't think I've seen a simple bolt on EFI system for Pontiacs.

[Zefhix]

pm sent :)

[Fuelie Fan]

Two votes for Pontiac! Interesting!

[pushrod243]

being an owner a a custom harley shop i think our market is wide open for a user friendly tuneable fuel injection system. Harleys is not tuneable except for chips which are very protected by the factory. K&N's powercommander doesn't write a program directly to the factory ecm they just adjust outputs to change performance. They also have a high failure rate. There are several others dabbling but I have a customer with a high dollar aftermarket setup that wont even idle below 1800 rpm. The manufacturer tells him it hasnt ran long enough at low rpms for the ecm to build up its parameters. It is a closed loop system with an o2 sensor and is advertised to be self correcting and has over 500 miles on it. The bike is very unmanageable. I havent found a alternative system for his bike. just my $.02

[myclone]

Syclone/Typhoon crowd.. Not a huge customer base but there isnt much out there off the shelf other than one after market PROM and then you have to step up to the FAST (or similar) system. Granted some ppl have learned to burn their own PROMs but there arent many of us (and its a HUGE pain with big cams due to being a speed density system).

Buick GN/T Type crowd.. Same deal here but a bigger customer base than the syty crowd with more PROMs available from more sources. However, there are quite a few that would like to step up to doing their own tuning but the price of systems like FAST are a hurdle.

I would think that there would be a possibly large customer base in the older 3rd gen F body crowd as they are stuck burning PROMs also if they cant swallow the cost of after market systems.

Personally, I would have everything I own right down to the weed whacker fuel injected if there was something available for less than the arm/leg the FAST systems command.

[Zefhix]

Two votes for Pontiac! Interesting!

WHOA!!! My server did not like that email you sent me. Something nasty came with it so i never got it :( Just email me at my other acct.-
origzefhix at hotmail dot com OR you can pm me Andy. Thanks :)

[zbugger]

I'm wondering why there aren't any smog legal F.I. kits out there. I'd love that on my '77 Camaro, but I still have to deal with the damn smog nazi's. Is it too much hassle to get a F.I. system to get past the C.A.R.B.?

[Kenova]

What I'd like to see is similar to Allan's request. I'd like a throttle body injection system that does a better job of atomizing the fuel. Barry Grant has/had a unit that looked like it would do a good job (Venturi Fuel Injection) but the controller was not adjustable. It also struck me as being a little pricey. Holley's Commander system is supposed to be quite user friendly, but I feel the fuel could be better atomized.
The throttle body systems may not be as good or as cool looking as the port injection systems, but they are easy to swap from one engine or manifold to another. A smog legal TBI would be just the ticket for some of the cars built in the late '70s and early '80s.
Ken

[OHCbird]

Count this as a thrid vote for Ponchos- although there are a few guys out there making manifolds. You need somebody like Jim Butler, etc to market a kit. Olds guys would probably love it, but the deeper you get, the more 'carburetor only' mentality you find.

The problem with bolt-on EFI is that it's never bolt-on. People have to realize that!

FF-
Can you say who you work for, or PM it to me?

[Hammered]

Count this as a forth vote for a Poncho system although I am only waiting on injectors to complete mine:

Accel DFI Gen7
Edlebrock Victor EFI manifold
Kinsler 1000 cfm TB
Rock Valley fuel tank
Aeromotive fuel management
and tons of Russell AN fittings
462 ci, E-heads and hyd. roller

I think that providing a software front end to an OEM style computer and offering parts might be a neat idea. A guy like me could then take a junkyard Mustang 5.0 system, buy a TB adaptor, rig up a fuel system, pre-program it (ala Gen7) and be in business for a lot less money. Does this sound practical?

John

[Fuelie Fan]

Allen and Ken, you hit on exactly something we may develop, especially since CA has frozen the 76 and newer vehicles. In fact, we began talking about it the week after the law was passed.
Currently we are debating either making it for the stock engine, or with a ZZ4 crate engine. The problems with getting it smog certified are large. #1, it's expensive. #2, it's vehicle specific. We can't just get a "small block chevy" EO number, since there are different versions of them in different vehicles. Truck engines are usually quite different from car engines as far as cam specs and so forth. If we want to to do it with the stock engine, then we have to be re-certified for every vehicle platoform. So, we'd have to pay for seperate tests for 82 and older camaros, 82 and older firebirds, 87 and older trucks, etc. So, we have to make absolutely sure we have a market that justifies the costs.
You can see then how we would save a lot of development costs by making a complete smog-legal EFI version of the ZZ4, as we would only need to tune and certify one engine. But, there again, there has to be a market, and requiring the customer to buy a whole new engine certainly does not make things affordable!!!
Plus, smog-legal efi systems are not supposed to be adjustable, unless somebody leaked a way to get around the lock...but who would do that? >:)
We can and have passed a CARB test, we have a smog-legal kit for 79 and older MGs. It is doable.

John, what you are talking about already exists, for Fords there's the twEECer, for GM there's the TunerPro RT.

OHCbird, you're right EFI is seldom a bolt-on, but we're getting closer. We have a very good base fuel map generator and a closed-loop wideband option than can get 90% of the people up and running pretty quickly. Does Jim butler have any experience with EFI other than building manifolds? Does he have any calibration services or experience?

As for the syclone/typhoon/GN crowd, it seems like pretty much any ECU should be able to handle those. I think both the CMP and CKP are 0-12V sqaure waves, and worst case you just don't run a CMP and fire the inejctors batched. Holley Commander 950s are pretty affordable, do they not do a good job with turbo'd engines? Ive only used the Holley on a N/A car. I'm pretty confident that you could use our system on those engines, I'm just wondering why that market isn't already saturated with options. It's certainly something we can look into. Can you recommend a distributor that we should contact about putting a system together?

pushrod243, what part of the country are you in?

[pushrod243]

My shop is in Central florida. We have been here for 14+ years and we specialize in performance and custom builds.

shop web site address

Http://www.scootersperformance.com

John

[Hammered]

Fuelie,

I didn't explain myself well enough. What I'm suggesting is that a software front end be created for a product like twEECer to enable someone to take a Ford 5.0 or equivalent GM system and transplant it onto a non-traditional EFI engine like a Pontiac, Olds, BB Ford etc.. for which "kits" do not exist. It's my belief that if someone could take junkyard ECUs, sensors and TBs adapt them to their engine of choice and have a software that gets them started, then maybe we would see more EFI systems out there. For most guys, the mechanical aptitude exists to do this and the use of junkyard parts reduces the cost barrier. A software that could take engine parameters and generate a starting spark and fuel map, and (unlike Gen7) walk them through a tuning process would greatly lower the complexity barrier that is keeping many from doing this. Maybe I hang around a lot of tight wads, but there are a lot of guys that would trade their time for a lower cost, less sophisticated system. I, on the other hand, paid to reduce risk where possible, hence the parts list above. Hopefully I'll get to validate my approach before the end of the year.

John

[Jagarang]

I say PONTIAC TOOOOO!! :naughty: :ssst:

[joeljet]

edelbrock will be coming out with a laptop programable system in the spring 2500-3000 but im still interested in other option for my 73 formula thanx joel

[Fuelie Fan]

John,
Trust me, I run with a real group of tightwads myself! I am always looking for "junkyard alternatives" whenever possible for my personal projects to keep costs down, engineering salaries are not very impressive.
It sounds like you are asking for a few different things. the basic software (TwEECer with CalEdit, TunerPro, etc) I think already exists so that you could concievably calibrate an OEM ECU for any engine combination. That's Request #1. your Second request was that it even cross over into less common or now-extinct architectures like the old BB fords, BOP engines, etc. THe challenge here isn't really software, it's hardware. The challenge is setting up the proper ignition system so that the ecu is getting the reference pulses it needs. this is not too difficult, really. A decent mechanic could set something up. Once that's done, an engine is an engine, the software basically doesn't care. (Of course, as you get into more wild combinations, this is less true, stock ECU's may struggle with a real wild cam, whereas an aftermarket ecu with a TPS/MAP blend for fuel control may not).
The third item you cover is making the existing software more user-friendly. If we were to take on the OEM ecu tuning, we'd certainly implement the base fuel map generator and tuning wizards that will be in our next software release. BUT, since our main business is selling ECU's, I don't know if that will ever happen!

To answer those who asked, our company is called Injection Logic, I think we have an article coming up in Hot Rod, with our system on an Inline 6 of all things!

Just out of curiosity, for all those who have said Pontiac, what prevents you from doing a TBI setup using a throttle body that bolts onto any 4bbl intake? TBI can be made to work pretty well, though I admit it can be a PITA to get the throttle response right. Took me a while to get my dad's truck perfect (GM big block throttle body and GM 7427 ecu on a mild 383). Ended up almost doubling the the DTPS PWs. But, if we (hypothetically :) ) had a new TBI system comin out that looked sharp (not like the boring blocks of aluminum that are the Holley throttle bodies) and was pretty easy to adjust, would there be any interest in that, or must a new system be MPFI? The obvious problem with MPFI is a large cash outlay for tooling to make new intake castings. Throttle bodies are much simpler and have a wider potential application base...but if nobody wants them then that's meaningless!

[Zefhix]

Hey, not be a nag but I sent you a pm Andy saying that my email from you was erased by my emailing system. I was curious to know what you sent in response to my initial pm... please email me if you get a chance at my hotmail acct. instead. origzefhix at hotmail dot com
Thanks...I really appreciate it. :cool:
P.S. I would be super-duper intereseted in running a TBI setup from your co. on the BB in our project Chevelle as I was dead set on TBI anyway (I cut agaist the grain as always) :)

[Fuelie Fan]

Keith,
Very very sorry, I was totally convinced that I had emailed you a second time, I guess I was mistaken. Check your inbox and let me know if you recieved my email.

I think TBI defintely has it's place, I love how when you first pop the hood on my nova or my dad's truck, you don't even realize you're looking at an EFI setup. I'm very much into a stock look with modern performance for my Nova, almost "stealthy" I guess.

[Zefhix]

Keith,
Very very sorry, I was totally convinced that I had emailed you a second time, I guess I was mistaken. Check your inbox and let me know if you recieved my email.

I think TBI defintely has it's place, I love how when you first pop the hood on my nova or my dad's truck, you don't even realize you're looking at an EFI setup. I'm very much into a stock look with modern performance for my Nova, almost "stealthy" I guess.

Yes..I got it and emailed you back. I was just getting excited, sorry if I seemed impatient. I definitely agree w/ the TBI statement. Want to keep things low-pro and since the build isn't exotic, I just can't justify the need for an MPFI setup. Plus, I have a cool idea I included in my email!
:git:

[rohrt]

John,
Just out of curiosity, for all those who have said Pontiac, what prevents you from doing a TBI setup using a throttle body that bolts onto any 4bbl intake? TBI can be made to work pretty well, though I admit it can be a PITA to get the throttle response right. Took me a while to get my dad's truck perfect (GM big block throttle body and GM 7427 ecu on a mild 383). Ended up almost doubling the the DTPS PWs. But, if we (hypothetically :) ) had a new TBI system comin out that looked sharp (not like the boring blocks of aluminum that are the Holley throttle bodies) and was pretty easy to adjust, would there be any interest in that, or must a new system be MPFI? The obvious problem with MPFI is a large cash outlay for tooling to make new intake castings. Throttle bodies are much simpler and have a wider potential application base...but if nobody wants them then that's meaningless!
I put a vote in for pontiac to. I have never been that excited over a wet flow system (TBI) rather have fuel rails and be able to change the injectors if needed. My desire is run a ATI supercharger some day or a turbo setup. I also would like to run down the road with a laptop and make adjustments. It would be nice if someone could team up with these guys. I know many have been waiting years to see what they are going to come up with.
http://www.tigerefi.com/index.html

I know some have seen http://www.force-efi.com/machefi.htm system or http://www.rancefi.com/ .
For those that are poor like me the http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html has a very cheap little setup to.

[Jagarang]

I'm stupid when it comes to formulating complex systems. Emarrasingly I'm a buy in a box with all the right goodies and maybe I can bolt it on right without destroying anything! I don't really even have time for the bolt on portion of the job and probably have to hire that out as well, much less to R&D, trouble shoot, source viable and correct parts, etc.
That's why my projects cost me so much in labor on top of parts expense. :sad4: :sad4: :sad4: :sad4: :sad4:

[Fuelie Fan]

I'm going to email the guys at Tiger right now. MAybe we can get something going if we team up.

[bnickel]

Keith,
Very very sorry, I was totally convinced that I had emailed you a second time, I guess I was mistaken. Check your inbox and let me know if you recieved my email.

I think TBI defintely has it's place, I love how when you first pop the hood on my nova or my dad's truck, you don't even realize you're looking at an EFI setup. I'm very much into a stock look with modern performance for my Nova, almost "stealthy" I guess.

what i would like to see is a tbi system that is compatible with a mass air sensor, similar to what mass-flo efi has done with their setup but tbi instead of mpfi. if that's even possible, but i ould think that it is, if not at least some type of tbi system that would work with maybe an older speed density version of the eec-iv computer os something like that.

here is a link to their setup
http://www.mass-floefi.com/

[myclone]

FWIW, I contacted a few vendors in the syty/GN crowd and they were about as receptive to it as a group of hunters that got invited to a PETA convention. My apologies for wasting your time.

[rohrt]

I would like to know what you hear back from the Tiger group. If you get a chance read there write up on NV road race it should be on there web site some where.

Jagarang

I know what your talking about when it comes to buying everything in a kit. A no hassel aproach. If Buttler or KRE could distribut a really good kit that would be great.
That Mass Flo system looks pretty cool. Use all GM parts, and no tuning required, keep it looking somwhat stock. The no tuning part kinda takes the fun out of it though, but if you can plug it in and go that is also a huge plus.
I know many pontiackers are scrapers like me and not afraid to rummage through the junk yard to save a few bucks. It hard to get around the cost of a good TB(550), injectors(500) and fuel pump(300) and still make it look good, but cost is always a factor. Edelbrock should be out soon with it FI system but I know with its computer it will not handle boost.
Tiger looks like it going to be a I-rock TPI manifold system. There is not enough info from there pictures on there web site. That would be a very cool system and many parts in the salvage yard for that. I know from reading there site they are all about function and good performance. People after my own heart.

[Fuelie Fan]

FWIW, I contacted a few vendors in the syty/GN crowd and they were about as receptive to it as a group of hunters that got invited to a PETA convention. My apologies for wasting your time. :rotfl:

Thanks for the effort though!

I'll definitely let the poncho fans know if we are able to get anything going

Andy

[bnoon]

I know personally that if someone were to make the junkyard stuff more easily adaptable to the older model stuff, I would probably tackle a Poncho 455+ on my next project for a nice early 80's Grand Prix PT car. Someone needs to gather up all of the godies needed to make such a swap and put it up for sale all in one place. I know that now a days I can search the web and find the fuel rail blanks on one site, hard line adapters on another site, injectors here, tubing for injector bungs there, wiring harnesses out yonder (or in salvage yards), etc. etc. on down the line.

If you gathered up all of this stuff and had on your site along with your own ECU, your budget priced/easier to operate ECU would look like a Cadilac amoung the afore mentioned Yugo's when compared to factory ECU's. Not to mention being able to sell the other bits to keep steady profit from those that continue to do it the hard way themselves.

[Hammered]

bnoon,

I think you captured what I was trying to say earlier. As I get more comfortable with this EFI stuff I may eventually attempt it on my own. For now I'm trying to get my aftermarket system working. I'm hoping to fire it next Friday.

If anyone wants a parts list for a Poncho, I'd be glad to provide it. It won't be cheap though.

John