Pontiac B body front suspension [Archive]

TheMonkey

11-14-2006, 07:29 AM

unfortunately, i cannot select new tubular front control arms for my '61 Bonneville (yet). anyone make custom arms?

would i be able to either box the stock front control arms, or weld in some webbing into the stamped channels to stiffen these up?

what has anyone else done to get these into positive caster territory? i was considering milling 0.150" off the face of the UCA shaft (currently > 0.750" thick), but don't like the idea of that. maybe rotate the towers that the shaft bolts to (worried about really screwing up the geometry though). or maybe something more radical to get away from rear steer?

imortantly though, orig Q is whether boxing or webbing the stock arms is worthwhile?

thanks,
Scott.

astroracer

11-14-2006, 08:25 AM

Just a thought but compare the track width of your Bonne to some of the more common PT cars. F cars or G cars that have a lot of aftermarket support. If one of those suspensions compares favorably to your "space", do a swap. Doing a complete front suspension swap isn't all that difficult and it would get you into the land of "readily available high performance parts"...:Alchy:
Just thinking out loud...
Mark

Marcus SC&C

11-14-2006, 08:38 AM

If you can get a few measurments for me (cross shaft bolt spacing,length cross shaft centerline to ball joint centerline and offset) we can do some adj. tubular arms for it. Then you can set the alignment where ever you like. IWe`ve done them for a an early B body before,if I recall correctly we based it on a 2nd Gen F body arm then changed it to suit. Modularity is cool! :) Mark SC&C

TheMonkey

11-14-2006, 11:26 AM

thanks for the replies.

i think i need to do a lot more reading / research to better understand where i want this geometry to end up. i might be able to accomplish this without a full front end swap (although land of "readily available high performance parts" sounds pretty good to me).

i'm going to be down to the bare bones this winter. i would be comfortable relocating the UCA shaft mounts on the frame if i can get comfortable with where to shift them relative to where they are now.

mark - i checked out your website; your adjustable arms look really great. i'm wondering though... it seems that you can adjust the relative position of the upper BJ (caster range, and SAI), but i don't know if i have a problem with my roll center height. adjustable arms seem attractive if i can keep my shaft mounts in place, but i might be forced to start fabricating anyway to drop the mount height. although, continued adjustability after the welding is done is not a bad thought.

what about the orig Q.... does anyone have an opinion of additional stiffness over stock stamped arms could be felt &/or appreciated (assuming same geometry)?

thanks, Scott.

shep

11-14-2006, 08:43 PM

Those arms are 40+ years old if nothing else add the bracing for safety and piece of mind. As for feeling it, I doubt that it would make that much difference.

TheMonkey

11-15-2006, 05:28 AM

Those arms are 40+ years old if nothing else add the bracing for safety and piece of mind. As for felling it, I doubt that it would make that much difference.

when you say 'felling', are you referring to the vertical drop in the mounting? if so, why don't you think this would make much of a difference? it seems that this is a very normal update on cars from this era.

astroracer

11-15-2006, 06:04 AM

Scott,
The SC&C arms will work fine for little changes but I doubt they will gain you much in the way of real handling improvements with your stock geometry and steering.
Moving suspension points around is NOT what you want to do. The issues you may fix (like R/C Hgt and Migration) are inconsequential when it comes to what you may do to the steering geometry. Bumpsteer, ackerman and anti-dive will all be affected when you start moving control arms around without taking the steering into account.
This is why I suggested a complete front clip swap. Putting in a complete, known suspension, removes all of these variables. Your options after the swap would be endless but I think the addition of the later model geometry and disc brakes (after a rebuild) would be so far above what your current suspension can do that you would be happy with that for a while... You can do this swap for very little money, initially, knowing that what you are doing will work and then, once the car is up and driving, make improvements as time and money see fit.
I don't know what you are planning for an engine but this swap will work with any BBC or Pontiac block and, with a little work on the motor mounts, will except the stock motor in your Bonne'.
Just some stuff to think about.
Mark

TheMonkey

11-15-2006, 08:15 AM

thanks Mark.

an entirely new front end is a bit more than i was anticipating, but i will explore it. i suppose as long as i'm down to the bones anyway, now is the time to address it.

really though.... how noticeable is the difference in handling & driving enjoyment between '61 rear steer vs. something with later style engineering? i mean, i believe it exists, but worth the time/effort/headache of a swap of this magnitude?

my frame does not have a removable front subframe, so i would think that adds to the complications. there is a front subframe from a 1980 TA that i know of locally. i'll do some measuring, and consider how this might mate. i'm going to be at the restoration shop next week to discuss body work, so i'll ask them their thoughts on this approach for the frame too.

motor being built is a Ponch 455.

thx, Scott.

astroracer

11-15-2006, 09:26 AM

really though.... how noticeable is the difference in handling & driving enjoyment between '61 rear steer vs. something with later style engineering? i mean, i believe it exists, but worth the time/effort/headache of a swap of this magnitude?

Well, Scott, that's what you have to ask yourself... The biggest question is, what is the final use of the car going to be? Race track? Street racer/corner burner? Cruiser? If it's a driver, on the street, what are your expectations? Is doing all of this going to be "better" then a simple bushing swap (to poly), better shocks and a good sway bar? You would be surprised what a moderate lowering, high performance low profile tires and a good set of shocks will do.
Yea, I know, front steer/rear steer/positive camber gain/roll center migration.... On a RACE car all of this stuff is important. For a street car, where getting on the expressway at 70 mph instead of 65 is your only gauge, does it really matter? I'm not trying to flame you here, I just want you to stop and think about what is important for YOUR car.
If it's not a race car I would suggest simply rebuilding the current suspension and adding a few bolt on Hi Perf parts. And remember, whatever you do in the front needs to be reflected in the rear to keep the car balanced.
Mark

TheMonkey

11-15-2006, 10:14 AM

.... I'm not trying to flame you here, I just want you to stop and think about what is important for YOUR car.
.....

Mark- no worries. i appreciate the critical thinking.

.... If it's not a race car I would suggest simply rebuilding the current suspension and adding a few bolt on Hi Perf parts.....

on a '61 convertible i have with the same front end: new springs + kyb shocks + fat sway bar was an amazing improvement over stock. although, after that, i put a new front end bushing kit on with disc brakes and new rims/tires. and it was terrible with the 245/45/17 tires. center of tire line pushed out only by 3/8", but the wide tires accentuated everything, and the car hunted all over the road. i tried factory spec negative caster, and could only get close to vertical on adjustment. i'm not sure if more positive caster would fix that issue entirely, but i know that some work has to be done beyond just bushings, bar, etc.

....And remember, whatever you do in the front needs to be reflected in the rear to keep the car balanced.
Mark

what do you mean? do you have any examples?

astroracer

11-15-2006, 10:42 AM

Wide tires on a rear steer... I see where you are coming from. Input is amplified and the rear steer doesn't like to center itself like a front steer will with a little additional caster.
As far as the rear goes, don't update the front without updating the rear. Poly bushings up front vs. worn out rubber in the back won't help the handling... That's all I was trying to say.
How about a frame swap? Early to mid 90's Caprice/Impala SS... You may be able to adapt the front steer components to your chassis BUT, again, it depends on how important it is to you...
Do some part number searches on an on-line parts house. My Astro Van uses the same steering knuckle as the later '77 on up "B" bodies. Check ball joint and bushing numbers between your '61 and a '91 Caprice, you may be able to do some judicious parts swapping...
Mark

Tony@AirRideTech

11-15-2006, 12:03 PM

Marcus SC&C

11-15-2006, 01:23 PM

Scott, Marks makes some good points but I don`t get the sense that you want to chop the car up and make it into a road race car. You just want it to drive and handle a lot better than it does now (comparable with a decent new car) yes? The adj. arms won`t do much at all for the geometry but they will do a lot for the alignment. Rear steer or not we`ve found some + caster and - camber to have noticable benefit on rear steer Camaros and Novas. I`m not talking theory here,I just realigned a `69 Camaro ragtop with modern perf. specs yesterday. We do it all the time. Since we don`t have all the numbers we don`t know if it`ll effect the bumpsteer for better or worse but the effect will be slight either way. I`m not familliar enough with those cars to tell you what would help the geometry but if you want to get into it a little give me a call. With a few measurments it`s easy to tell the basic trends the front end and steering follow and tweak it to make it much better,if not perfect. We`ve gotten pretty good geometry out of a `46 Plymouth front end (the mother of screwed up front ends!) with a few tweaks and carefully chosen parts. That thing was so bad Suspension Analyzer wouldn`t let me enter the specs in stock form,it kept flashing ERROR! ERROR! :barf: Bear in mind that 2nd Gen F body and B body front ends aren`t without their problems either. There`s a lot of different ways to go,a good clean sheet custom front end would be awesome but tweaking the stock front end will give you the best bang for the buck. Mark SC&C

pitts64

11-15-2006, 06:54 PM

I wonder what type of suspension mods they did to the NASCAR Pontiacs of this period (61-64).
I wish I had concrete answers for you Scott but it seems we are both at the same point here with our B bodies.
My suspension guy didn't recommend adding positive caster either.
I think he said something about adding a little more negative camber.
When I remove my control arms this winter I'm going to look into Del A lum bushings.
From what I "hear" about Poly, its OK for the front but no good for the rear.

TheMonkey

11-15-2006, 07:42 PM

Now on some of the Pontiac B body cars... If I remember right, if they are a candian built car it is very likely that it has a Chevrolet chassis under it like what is found under the Impala, BelAir Biscayne. We even had a 58 pontiac wagon once that was like this. On the other hand, it may be like the 61-67 Buick Chassis too.... does your car have a boxed style lower control arm and use a forward mounted strut rod?

yes, the canadian versions were on chevy chassis, and came with the chevy motors too. the big advertising push for pontiac in '61 was the new 'widetrack' which was only on the US cars.

i'm not sure what you mean by fwd mounted strut rod.

Scott, Marks makes some good points but I don`t get the sense that you want to chop the car up and make it into a road race car. You just want it to drive and handle a lot better than it does now ....

yes, this is true. but remember, i'm at a bare bones frame. if i do all my research now and explore opportunities, it might not be that big of a job, except i may run into other headaches when hanging the sheet metal.

i found an example of Steve Barcak from Pontiac Heaven in Arizona had put a 73-77 Grand Prix front clip on a '61. i'll talk to him a bit about this.

...
When I remove my control arms this winter I'm going to look into Del A lum bushings.
From what I "hear" about Poly, its OK for the front but no good for the rear.

my '61 has metal on metal bushings on the tops, and rubber on bottom. if i keep the original front end, i'd prob put firm bushings on bottoms, move the UCA mounting holes back about 3/8" for caster. maybe put on adjustable arms with firm bushings up top if more adjustability is desired in the SAI.

i am going to box my rears and keep rubber.

we'll get it figured out. i knew coming into this that resources are not as plentiful for us, but it makes for more of an adventure.

pitts64

11-15-2006, 07:53 PM

Scott, did you check out Indian Adventures Ground Grabbers?
http://gallery.bcentral.com/GID4716958DD198762-Traction-Bars.aspx

TheMonkey

11-16-2006, 05:05 AM

Scott, did you check out Indian Adventures Ground Grabbers?
http://gallery.bcentral.com/GID4716958DD198762-Traction-Bars.aspx

Yes this is an adventure. You need more then a pocket full of money with these cars!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDofS1BXlYM

the ground grabbers are on perpetual backorder. IA keeps waiting on the bushings, i'm not sure why they don't tool around some more available bushings. i think they only come with poly.

i have heard that boxed stockers work great, and i *think* i want stiff arms with rubber bushings in back.

thanks for sharing the vid. very cool. listening to a tuned 462 is a great way to start the day. cars like that are the reason i've fallen under the spell.

pitts64

11-16-2006, 06:42 AM

I think we need to post some detailed suspension photos with measurements so the experts here can help us.

Are you going to Norwalk next year?

Tony@AirRideTech

11-16-2006, 07:21 AM

i'm not sure what you mean by fwd mounted strut rod.

See attached......

TheMonkey

11-16-2006, 09:57 AM

Are you going to Norwalk next year?

i don't think next season is going to happen, but i think it's in my future. you will be there? are you driving your car out?

Tony- the pontiac does not have the strut rod. both upper and lower control arms are A style, and the only other linkage is to the sway bar.

maybe i'll scan in a couple pages out of my service manual tonight that shows the suspension setup.

pitts64

11-16-2006, 12:10 PM

Here are some photos I found.

Marcus SC&C

11-16-2006, 01:51 PM

The parts and geometry look a lot like C2/C3 Corvette. Best I can tell from the pics the pickup points of the upper and lower arms are roughly parallel (maybe down a little at the ball joints?). RC height should be above ground (a good thing) but camber gain is probably almost neutral. C2/C3 cross shafts are probably the same spacing. That would make adj. arms easy and that would take care of the alignment. Stingrays and shoebox Chevys with roughly similar geometry respond very well to taller upper ball joints. The higher roll center helps reduce body roll and the - camber gain helps keep the tires planted with the roll that`s left. Later B body suspension isn`t really much better than what you`ve got by the looks of it. Mark SC&C

pitts64

11-16-2006, 02:22 PM

The main thing I'm after is better straightaway feel. I'd like my car to be harder to turn out of the center (straight).
My car (64 bonneville) handles bends well.
I installed a AGR 12 to 1 box and big Addco front sway bar.

pitts64

11-16-2006, 02:26 PM

Monkey are these what your looking for?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=008&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=180051340621&rd=1&rd=1

TheMonkey

11-16-2006, 02:47 PM

i would say that is a similar sensation to my convertible '61. it drives straight, but you better keep your hands on the wheel. it doesn't 'float', it 'nibbles'.

which all kind of spells out: more caster.... doesn't it?

TheMonkey

11-16-2006, 02:50 PM

Monkey are these what your looking for?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=008&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=180051340621&rd=1&rd=1

those look like a one-off fabrication that will require a bit more fabricating for bushings. i know that i don't want metal on metal. the catalina is a bit shorter on the back end than the Bonneville. i'm not sure that they have the same RCAs.

i think the stock ones will be fine with some reinforcement. i already have 8 new rubber bushings for them.

jaybee

11-16-2006, 02:51 PM

Marcus, can you expand on the "taller upper ball joint" comment?

pitts64

11-16-2006, 03:19 PM

The control arms are all the same.
You might want to give each bushing a little tack to keep it in place.
Too bad you can't get the Indian Adventures bars. They are very nice. They have two angle adjustments, one for automatic and one for stick cars.

67 caprice

11-17-2006, 03:43 AM

[quote=TheMonkey]. anyone make custom arms?

/quote]
http://www.performanceonline.com/store/customer/product.php?productid=18219&cat=715&page=1
THIS IS FOR A CHEVY B BODY 58 - 64
IT SHOULD WORK FOR YOUR 61 BONNEVILE

67 caprice

11-17-2006, 03:44 AM

[quote= anyone make custom arms?/quote]
http://www.performanceonline.com/store/customer/product.php?productid=18219&cat=715&page=1
THIS IS FOR A CHEVY B BODY 58 - 64
IT SHOULD WORK FOR YOUR 61 BONNEVILE

Marcus SC&C

11-17-2006, 06:38 AM

Jaybee, using taller upper ball joints extends the effective spindle height and changes the angle of the upper arms. This changes the camber curves and due to the way the arm`s angles interact with each other it also raises the roll center which generally reduces body roll. There`s a lot more to it than that but that`s gist. We use CNC machined modular ball joints that let us change the pin or stud height to make the changes we want. On these cars we can do a 3 bolt flange joint but the extra height may make it a little harder to get a performance alignment out of it. On `55-`57 Chevys and C2/C3 Vettes we use the adj. tubular upper arms to eliminate the alignment issues and a more common 4 bolt Chevelle housing to fit the arms. That would be the easiest way to go on these cars as well. I can tell you from experience the extra + caster,a little - camber makes a BIG difference on this type of front end,we do this sort of thing all the time. The tall ball joints won`t make any different cruising down the highway but you`ll get noticably less body lean in the corners and much better mechanical grip from the tires. Big cars that handle are cool. :) Mark SC&C

pitts64

11-17-2006, 11:51 AM

Mark, I e-mailed you about the adjustable uppers with the tall ball joint.

TheMonkey

11-17-2006, 12:29 PM

Mark-

does a taller BJ have the same effect as lowering the mounting holes of the shaft?

as i think about it, the adjustable arms may be my route also. even if a taller BJ was avail for the stock arm, caster is still a problem.

Mark - your arms can back the BJ up into positive caster? i think i need 1/2" or more. more if i want to play with a couple degrees.

here is a pic of the '61 UCA. note that the BJ is actually slightly fwd of the front bolt. not sure that Jeff's '64 is the same. **** EDITED to add that i wrote this wrong... the BJ is slightly behind the rear bolt; wrote it backwards *****

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

thanks.

Marcus SC&C

11-17-2006, 03:42 PM

Yep,lowering the cross shafts or raising the upper ball joint pivot points have the same effect. If you can confirm the cross shaft bolt spacing (looks like 5" from the pic) and the distance from the centerline of the cross shafts where the mounting bolts pass through to the centerline of the ball joint (grease fitting hole) I can whip up a set of arms no sweat. In plan view it looks a lot like an early Camaro arm,but longer. The offset is no problem early Camaro arms have a similarly extreme offset (facing the other way,Jeff`s looks like it has offset similar to the Camaro). Each leg of the arms adjusts roughly 2" so you can try just about any caster setting you want. Mark SC&C

jaybee

11-19-2006, 02:23 PM

Very interesting as I was prepared to go exactly the opposite direction. Nova ball joints are considerably shorter than Tri5 units. By substituting the Nova ball joint you can fit a wider wheel with more backspacing, because the stock piece sticks up next to the wheel rim whereas the Nova unit will fit inside a 16" or larger wheel. I don't think relocated inner mounts will work on a 55/6/7 with stock control arms as the UCA runs too close to the spring cup and the suspension will top out early. I'm not sure if the same is true of the later B-body cars, but it looks very similar in the pics.

TheMonkey

12-04-2006, 07:05 AM

Mark-

Pitt64 & I both have the same front disc brake conversion, and it sounds like we have similar handling problems - straight away feel.

I do want to get caster back, but I did some other measuring this weekend. I measured the effect of scrub radius of the stock drums vs. the new discs. The new discs push the scrub radius outward (increase) by 5/8", and I did not compensate for that with the offset in the wheel.

I would prefer to keep offset where it is, because I have the same wheels front to back so i can rotate, and the back is a glove like fit. Also, I already own these wheels.

So, here's my question.... if I put on some adjustable arms, and pull the upper BJ inboard a bit to increase the SAI angle, and reduce scrub radius... that could fix scrub radius, but what would the increase in SAI angle do?

I think that the upper BJ would have to get pulled in more than 5/8" because the height difference between upper BJ & lower BJ is more than the height difference between lower BJ & the ground. But anyhow, I think it would help to reduce scrub radius, I'm just not sure what an increase in SAI will do to handling?

Thanks, Scott.

TheMonkey

12-04-2006, 07:14 AM

Duh... SAI can't be changed without a new spindle right? Pulling in upper BJ just changes camber.

The only fix for scrub radius is changing the offset in the wheel I think.

TheMonkey

12-04-2006, 07:17 AM

Unless I weld on another BJ hole onto my spindle just inside the existing hole. Suppose I could raise it, and put it more forward on the spindle at the same time too.

Marcus SC&C

12-04-2006, 09:18 AM

You kinda answered your own question. The problem with welding to those spindles is that they`re ductile iron, not steel. That is not to say that you *can`t* weld to them at all but that the welds almost certainly wouldn`t be up to the job at hand. I wouldn`t try it. Looking at those pics I can see what you mean about the SAI and scrub radius though! That`s pretty bad. A lot more backspacing would the be easiest way to improve the scrub radius issue. Of course it looks like you`d also have to get larger dia. wheels to clear the upper ball joint/UCA. You know how it is,whenever you change one thing.... :) Mark SC&C

pitts64

04-16-2007, 07:34 PM

Wanted to bump this thread up.

Scott I was wondering how far along you are with your projects?

pitts64

04-16-2007, 07:41 PM

I wanted to know how far back does a rear sway be need to be mounted on the lower control arm?
I have a Addco 1" rear bar that came with my Addco front bar.

This is how I rough aligned it. Don't laugh too hard it works!

TheMonkey

04-17-2007, 05:34 AM

Wanted to bump this thread up.

Scott I was wondering how far along you are with your projects?

Hey Jeff-

Things are moving along. The car is in the body shop getting the treatment. I expect to have it back with new paint probably in June or more likely July. I've been busy running around getting work done to the bright work so the car will look nice when I get it back. Bumpers and trim getting the treatment. Va va voom.

I'm feeling pretty buried with so many details. The motor build is custom MPFI, & tranny is electronic. Because I'm feeling buried, there are some other aspects of the project that I am going to work on the cool mods after I get a season under my belt of tuning the existing setup. As it is, I'm thinking I'll be lucky if I put it in gear in the Spring of '08.

Front end is one of the things that I'm pretty much going to stick with stock for now. But, I'm going to mill down the face of one end of the UCA shafts so that I can get a few degrees of positive caster This will effectively be the same thing as removing additional shims- currently we can't get positive caster because we've pulled all the shims out of rear bolt until shaft hits mount. If driving straight down the road still feels crappy, I'll prob swap my front tires/rims to a thinner tire and pull offset back into the fender to make up for the 5/8" that the disk brakes pushed out. That is a big adjustment to the scrub radius when we put the disks on. Actually, not sure if yours was the same adjustment, because my '61 came with different bearings than your '64.

So, my mods are going to be basic for now to get rolling again. But then, yesterday, I opened up the issue of Hot Rod mag, and there was a huge spread on a bunch of new aftermarket front clips available.....

I wanted to know how far back does a rear sway be need to be mounted on the lower control arm?
I have a Addco 1" rear bar that came with my Addco front bar.

When I installed this onto my convert, I was wondering the same thing. But there is a bit of a taper to the lower control arms which makes it only fit pretty much in one spot. You'll see what I mean when you actually pull the bar under there and fit it in. IIRC, the bend in the bar for the diff pretty much lines up directly under it. Don't drop the bar when you are fitting in there, it will knock your teeth out. I'll be interested to hear your comments on any differences you feel with the new bar.

pitts64

04-17-2007, 08:10 AM

Hi Scott,
Unless you made a type-o the front bolt boss of the UCS needs grinding not the rear.
Bringing the rear closer will add negative caster and positive camber.

I replaced all of my linkage with Rare Suspension pieces. I had a bad center link!!! It never dawned on me that the steering wheel doesn't lock on our cars so checking the side to side play without somebody holding the steering wheel was a waste of time.:pat:

I also replaced the rear springs with Moog #5415 @ Tin Indian Dave's suggestion. They are perfect!! Just a tad on the soft side that can be adjusted out with Air Lift air bags in the springs.

I also installed a set of Ram Air resto upper rear control arms. Now my rear end is mostly Energy Suspension poly with spherical's just on the rear ends of the lower control arms (IA Ground Grabbers). I'll have a better opinion once I get over 10,000 miles on them.

I contacted Mark at SC&C and I'm going to go with the custom uppers. I'm going to let them do the install and alignment.

Enjoy the ride Scott. :twothumbs

TheMonkey

04-17-2007, 09:39 AM

Jeff-

Sounds like you have been busy too!

.....Unless you made a type-o the front bolt boss of the UCS needs grinding not the rear.
Bringing the rear closer will add negative caster and positive camber....

you are 100% right. thanks for the correction.

....

I contacted Mark at SC&C and I'm going to go with the custom uppers. I'm going to let them do the install and alignment.

.....

i will be VERY interested to hear how this works for you. when are you getting setup?

TheMonkey

04-17-2007, 10:11 AM

....
I replaced all of my linkage with Rare Suspension pieces. I had a bad center link!!! It never dawned on me that the steering wheel doesn't lock on our cars so checking the side to side play without somebody holding the steering wheel was a waste of time.:pat:
....

RARE sells the center link? can you share a link to the product?

What do you mean about not being able to check side to side play and the steering wheel not locking?

Thanks in advance.

pitts64

04-17-2007, 11:49 AM

Scott,
In order to check the linkage play by twisting the front wheel side to side you have to have the steering wheel held in place to keep the twisting movement from going through your steering box.
I still think the best way to check steering linkage is to remove the idler arm frame bracket and the pitman arm from the steering box and check each joint on its own.
The Rare idler arm is a beautiful piece with upper and lower bearings instead of that sloppy screw set-up.

Here is the Rare Suspension link.
http://ecomserv.byted.com/ez/tk_expired.asp
You need a business tax number to order from them but it is well worth it. There suspension parts are top quality. If you don't have access to a tax number e-mail me.