Your wisdom wanted

[johnny_k]

I am new to this site, and new to car rebuilding/upgrading all together. I have been researching like crazy for the past couple of years, trying to decide if I should even attempt to under take a project like this. You see, I love cars, but have been confined to appreciating them for what they are instead of making them into what they could be. Well, a couple of weeks ago I became committed by buying a 68 Camaro. The VIN tells me it was originally a 6 cylinder, but somewhere along the way it got a 350, and a four speed. Anyway, now I have the base to start from, and the motivation, but lack the knowledge needed. Let me clarify one thing. I am not into drag or track racing. It simply started by my father getting a Dodge Viper for himself a couple of years ago. Ever since then I have wanted more power, and more performance for myself. So, on to my big questions,

1. Has anyone ever tried to drop a Bill Mitchell 632 into a first generation Camaro? I have fallen in love with that motor, and if it can work, I would really like to know how. I understand that this may very well define the term overkill, but I am displacement hungry.

2. With large amounts of power, I understand that the structural integrity of the car is something that needs consideration. I plan on getting a new front subframe, but who makes the best one for my type of application (lots of power, and lots of weight up front)?

3. Then, I noticed that a lot of people use roll cages to strengthen their cars. I don’t want a roll bar. I want to be able to get in and out of the vehicle, and would like to still be able to use the rear seats. What kinds of alternatives are out there, if any?

4. I was thinking that for a transmission I would go with a G-Force T-56. Anyone have any comments about those transmissions?

5. For a clutch, I am more uncertain about what to get. I have been looking at Tilton, Quartermaster, and Centerforce clutches. I am leaning towards the 7.25 diameter carbon/carbon 3 plate clutch from Tilton, but am very open to suggestion.

6. As the driveline needs to be revamped, I was thinking of going with a stage three custom rearend from Currie enterprises. It is a nine inch rear, with choice of gear ratios. Once again, anyone have any thoughts?

7. What about a rear suspension? What can handle drag racing type launches, but won’t quit on me when I push the car hard into corners?

8. In regards to tires, I am very torn between going with something newer looking, like a Goodyear Eagle F1 or a BFG Radial T/A for the classic look. I have also looked at Mickey Thompson tires. For the rear tires, I do plan to use the DSE mini tub kit. What is the general consensus on the best “whole package” tire? (meaning that it will stick well on the launch, hold in the corners, and not wear too quickly)

I think that covers my major questions for now. I know that these questions are all over the place, but I decided to lump then together and throw them in the general discussion area instead of posting multiple threads. Forgive me if this turns into a cluster going in many directions. Also, if there are any other major components I forgot to mention that would be crucial to a build of this magnitude, please feel to bring it to my attention. I welcome all advice/wisdom you all have to share. Thanks,

John

[Matt@RFR]

We've gone round and round on this subject lately: Race car performance on the street. You say that you're not into racing, but then you talk about a 632 in an early camaro, with no cage (not even a bar!), and performing racing type manuevers on the street. What you're talking about is even more dangerous than actually racing the car on a race track!!! You will not have the luxury of professionally prepared racing surfaces, you will be driving in proximety to completely untrained drivers, and no on-sight ambulance.

Besides the glaring safety factor of a cage, there's something else to consider: Chassis flex. With monster torque from a big-inch motor, you'll be twisting the living hell out of ANY car that doesn't have a roll cage! Your doors will never shut right, and your quarter panels (atleast) will never be straight again, if you ever manage to get the thing to launch decently.

I'll say it again: If you're not willing to live with a jungle gym in your car, then you shouldn't be willing to go fast enough to need one.

By the way, welcome to the board! :)

[Andrew McBride]

"2. With large amounts of power, I understand that the structural integrity of the car is something that needs consideration. I plan on getting a new front subframe, but who makes the best one for my type of application (lots of power, and lots of weight up front)?"Here is the top of the line suspension.
http://www.waynedue.com/

I would spend some time on the forum and evaluate some other cars and figure out what you are wanting to achieve with the car, I believe you will find some great ideas on here that will help you decide what is right for your car. Welcome to the site.

Andrew

[Ralph LoGrasso]

Hey John,

Welcome aboard! I'll take a stab at some questions.

1). I believe Hot Rod mag. had a 69 Camaro with an all aluminum 632 in it that they built. I'm not too sure on the name of the car, you may want to search their website for that article, it may offer some tips and tricks to stuffing that rat in there.

2). I agree with Andrew, I'd go with the Wayne Due, or possibly the new DSE subframe that is coming out soon. The C.A.R.S. frame is pure bad ass as well.

3). I agree with Matt, I would DEFINITELY install a cage. If not a cage, then a bar. Even if you keep the door bars out, a regular 4 point bar will provide some safety. For a 632 making tons of power, I'd look at a 6 or 8 point cage though. Safety first :)

4). I'm planning on the G-force T56 for my project as well. I have not heard anything bad about them. Some other companies to consider or just shop around are Keisler and D&D.

5). I'll leave that to the clutch experts, I'm not very well versed in the area of clutches.

6). Currie makes a nice rearend. 9" is generally considered stronger than a 12 bolt by most people, but a lot of guys still love their 12 bolts. For a 632 with drag type launches, I'd want atleast 33 spline axles in that thing. Use a gear calculator to figure out what ratio to use based on what top speed you're looking for, what trap speed you're looking for, and also what rpms you'll see while in 6th cruising on the highway.

7). If you're looking for something that's gunna hook really good, I'd probably just stick with a nice set of leaf springs from DSE or GW. It is all subjective to what you want though. If you want the ultimate in handling, go with a 3-link. Is your car going to be primarily a street/strip car? Mostly a cruise car? Or just an all around pro-touring car?

8). What tire/wheel combo are you thinking of running(sizes)? I'm going with Michelin Pilot Sports (18x9/18x12 & either 265/35/18 or 275/35/18 up front & 335/30/18s out back). There are a ton of companies that make excellent tires. Toyo Proxes T1S is a great tire, Nitto 555R, BFGoodrich G-Force KDW, Yokohama AVS Sport, etc. I know that doesn't really help, but it gives you some other brands/models to look at.

One major thing that you forgot is brakes. This really depends on if you're planning on running 17" diameter or bigger wheels. If so, both Wilwood and Baer make great kits. Wilwood has a nice 6 piston front kit with a 13" rotor, and baer has everything from their track kit w/ 2 piston calipers up to 6 piston calipers and 15" rotors(you'll need 19" wheels). They both make a ton of kits for the 9" as well. Touring Classics also makes a nice kit that utilizes C5 components.

Good luck on the build!

[ProdigyCustoms]

1 We did a pump gas 632" Sonny Leonard Pro stock style motor some years ago in a street rod. No replacement or displacement. Yes, it will fit in your Camaro on factory style big block mounts, but you will spend some serious money on bolt ons though. Exhaust becomes a big consideration in big cube applications. You will need sewer can size exhaust to extort all that HP.

2 Subframe will totally depend on intended purpose. Is you are more focused on corners and cruising, Wayne Due is by far the best. If you are more inclined to straight lining and cruising, A stock frame would be fine, or the Chris Alston would be a great choice. Either will have to be frame connected into a crossmember and roll bar.

3 We have designed a bar the is functional in both added strength and safety, will pass NHRA tech, looks good, and allows full access to the back seat.

4 I would only consider a TKO 600, and then you will still probably break it if it dead hooks at the track will all that torque. But shy of a Jerico / Lenco (race only transmissions), it is the only that would stand a chance of living.

5 Call Any good clutch company, they will set you up once you have your final combo. I like dealing with Red at McCleod.

6 A 9" or 12 bolt will be fine as long as it comes from a reputable source.

7 I would use Leaf springs and Cal trac bars. They work OK for all occasions.

8 Quote "What is the general consensus on the best “whole package” tire? (meaning that it will stick well on the launch, hold in the corners, and not wear too quickly)"
LOL, I'll take a blond, big hooters, tight ass, just the right amount of stupid, but smart enough to have intelligent conversation, a total nympho and NO baggage, problems or maintenance requirements. LOL!
You will sacrifice here somewhere. Sticky tires go away very quick, tires that wear well introduce you to trees and telephone poles. Drag radials are an option. Mickey Thompson's drive like doo doo, and ET Street or Hoosier Quick time pros are totally dangerous on wet roads should you get caught in the rain. 335 radials hook better then smaller tires, but as referenced in many other post here, still go up in smoke at the track with any real power.
Two sets of rear tires will be the answer, cruise on 335, race on slicks.

As far as other areas of concern, there are many in this type of build. Everything really needs to be well planed and expert advice is always recommended. I have seen to many magazine / Internet board readers build monsters that rotate the earth on its axis that won't fall off a cliff fast. Every little thing counts. Either hire a competent shop, or find a consultant / confidant that you feel you can trust. nothing will give you a bigger headache then trying to sort through information from 50 different opinionated advisers.

[johnny_k]

Thank you for the responses all. I also really appreciate the warm welcome. I have a few answers for some of your questions, and a couple of comments.

In response to MATT@RFR:
I just find it hard to believe that with the amount of resources we seem to have at our fingertips that someone hasn’t created a solution to having a stronger car structurally without making it so that you have to crawl in and out of the vehicle. One of the big things I read about the pro-touring definition is that you take an older car and make it perform at the same level as new age exotics, without sacrificing too much the drivability of the car.

On another note, I completely understand the safety factor when introducing something that is at a race car level to the urban streets of America. I would hope that all here never unleash their beasts in a manner that would endanger other people on public streets.

To give you a general understanding of my mentality, let me give you a little info about me. I grew up not performance driven; I was into loud. In high school I was one of those kids that got ridiculous car stereos. Each time I got a new stereo, I thought that would be the last one, but then after a while, I would feel this burning desire for more. After my third one, I finally realized what it was that kept me changing things. I wanted to be the limiting factor. I wanted music that would play louder than any volume I would ever actually want to listen to. It was the feeling of disappointment in those first stereo’s when I would turn it up, and then reach the distortion level before I got to the max volume level I wanted. I wanted pure, perfect quality music at any volume I would so choose to listen to. It was this mentality that has found itself in my new project. I want a car that will go faster than I am willing to, that will corner harder than I want to; a car that will exceed me. I want to be the limiting factor in this car. I want a car to scare me with its capabilities. I know that I will go through many more rebuilds and cars if I “settle” somewhere. That is why I am going overboard with everything from the very beginning.

In response to Andrew McBride:
Thank you for your heading me in the right direction.

In response to Ralph LoGrasso:
Once again, thanks to you too for the insight. I would say that right now everything is in the research stages, but here are some general answers to your questions.

2. I had heard on another forum (a different site) that the Wayne Due subframe had been giving some guys grief (alignment issues I believe). I had been leaning towards the DSE one that is coming out because of that. I just wanted to make sure I wasn’t out of line, or missing something.

7. I know it is asking for a lot, but in terms of suspension, I was hoping for something that does it all. That being said, I would realistically want something mainly that would hold in the corners, but wouldn’t die if I decided to get on the gas hard.

8. In terms of wheels and tires. I was planning on 17 inch Torq Thrust II’s all the way around. I don’t know specifically what tires would fit in front, but for the rear wheels I know that with the DSE mini tub I can fit up to 335’s underneath the rear. So I was figuring that somewhere between 315 and 335’s for the rear. I had no idea what brand of tire to go with, so was hoping for suggestions.

About brakes, I wanted to do a lot more research on that before I started asking for recommendations. I have manual drums all the way around right now. I wanted to see what kind of conversion kits there were out there. My general feeling though is that the system of choice is a Baer system, and would not be surprised if I go that way in the end, but don’t feel I know enough yet to even be very good at taking recommendations.

Thanks once again for the input.

In response to ProdigyCustoms:
Thank you for the information. I have a couple more questions for you though. Quote, “but you will spend some serious money on bolt ons though” Like what, and how much is serious money? I will look into your cage, I think I have been convinced at this point that there is simply no way around getting a cage. Thanks for the heads up on making sure I have a “guy” in a shop that I can trust. I do indeed have a “guy” who is going to help me out. I just want to make sure I have tapped everyone possible, for all the information possible before I go to him. I figure he will ask me if I have any preferences when I go to him for advice. If I give him a list of main parts I am interested in, like engine, transmission, and rear end for example, then he will help me fill in the gaps with the small stuff I’ll need in conjunction to that.

Once again, thanks to all for your input. I am eagerly listening to what anyone has to say at this point.

John

[Ralph LoGrasso]

John,

No problem. I think you're on the right track with your build and you've certainly come to the right place for info. There are so many guys here with uncountable amounts of experience. Good luck on the build!

Frank,

You have much more experience than me so I'm curious as to why you don't think the G-force T56 will hold up. With all the bells and whistles it's supposed to be rated at approx 800 ft-lb TQ. Is it something in the design/components or are you just not fond of the T56 itself? I know I've talked to a few guys who just don't like them at all for various reasons. Thanks,

[ProdigyCustoms]

A 632 will be a tall deck and will require special headers, different from normal big block headers. A good set of Lemons for a tall deck, $1200? You will also have to go with 3 1/2" to 4" exhaust, or probably oval tubing and mufflers. Either way, pretty pricey. I guess the engine will come with the intake, different for a tall deck? You'll need either a killer FI system, or a custom street Dominator to feed it. Most other stuff will be standard big block stuff.
With a 632, I am assuming you will have 800HP and more torque? Asuming this, you will have to have at least a crossmember, bar and back braces into the trunk. You could get buy with swing out bars, I actually run a front hoop in my street racer with no down bars for many years, but am adding them now along with front subframe bars as I am getting a little concerned about safety as I am making it a little faster.
As far as Wanye Due's sub frame, I have not done an alignment yet, I have a couple in the shop right now and do not see an issue. They are true works of art. Rarely will I outright praise someones product, but Wayne gets it.
Ralph, Long story short, since I drag race and spend some time around the track, I see alot. I just run into lots of guys blowing up 6 speeds. With all that said, I am not totally convinced the TKO's will do any better in mega HP combos, there just is not as many around yet. I do know the guy's that sell the TKO's say they are holding up, but everything changes when you hook something up at the track. The weak link will quickly surface.

[spanky the wondermuffin]

i run a tilton ot2 7.25 3-plate.really more of an on-off switch than a clutch.a pure drag race motor is not going to work on the street.solid roller cams and restrictors aren't made to idle around town.your stock sub is the best choice for what sounds like more of a pro street car.with the dollar amounts you will get into consider building 2 cars ,a nice street car and a ratty drag car.the car you are describing will need a budget of $50,000.write down everything you can think of .add it up,then add at least 50% to get to a number you wish you could keep the car under.many,if not most cars that start down this path never are completed.if your car runs why not slowly upgrade and enjoy it.do everything needed to stick the monster motor in(driveline,safety),then get a motor.

[MrQuick]

In response to MATT@RFR:
I just find it hard to believe that with the amount of resources we seem to have at our fingertips that someone hasn’t created a solution to having a stronger car structurally without making it so that you have to crawl in and out of the vehicle. One of the big things I read about the pro-touring definition is that you take an older car and make it perform at the same level as new age exotics, without sacrificing too much the drivability of the car.



John
A safe roll cage that isn't imposing or hard to enter is possible its just how much do you want to spend. Most "kits" out there are universal and that reflects the price. I could build a cage that is almost invisible and a large person could get around in it but again how much do you want to spend? Most wont put a price on comfort...especially if it was above the 2 thousand mark.

[blazer4corners]

[QUOTE=ProdigyCustoms]A 632 will be a tall deck and will require special headers, different from normal big block headers. A good set of Lemons for a tall deck, $1200? You will also have to go with 3 1/2" to 4" exhaust, or probably oval tubing and mufflers. Either way, pretty pricey. I guess the engine will come with the intake, different for a tall deck? You'll need either a killer FI system, or a custom street Dominator to feed it. Most other stuff will be standard big block stuff.
With a 632,] ...........My buddies got a 632 in his pulling truck that came out of his race car,they need a distributor with an adjustable collar.And if your only making 800 horse on 632 your doing something wrong.

[Steve Chryssos]

I am new to this site, and new to car rebuilding/upgrading all together. I have been researching like crazy for the past couple of years, trying to decide if I should even attempt to under take a project like this.

John,
To me, this is far more important than any of your subsequent questions. I cannot recommend a project of this magnitude if you have never built a car before or driven a car like this before. Changing the clip and adding a cage will be more involved than you think--mostly because the work will almost definitely evolve into other fabrication projects. Even if you find a good fabricator, you will not be able to communicate effectively with him. And if you end up with a bad fabricator, you will get screwed. Either way, you'd better have deep pockets.
Furthermore, having 700 Ft-Lbs of torque on hand below 3000 rpm can kill you a lot!

Unfortunately your stereo analogy holds true, but in reverse. You need to make changes to your car in stages. Outside labor is the hardest part of any project. Find a good fabricator. If you absolutely have to get crazy, do the clip first. There will be a small amount of fabricating involved (steering, brake lines, etc.). Make sure your guy can get that job done before moving on to a roll cage or other fab work. Or better yet, keep it simple: Stock chassis with an engine under 500HP.

[Tom Welch]

As a relatively new and quiet member, I have gained considerable knowledge from reading as much of this forum as possible. I have been into cars since I found an old Hot Rod magazine with an article about Don Garlits and the Swamp Rat car that took off part of one of his feet. That was 1970. Now I am building my second car. I built a protouring style car in 1981. Now I'm building my second 67 Firebird. The best advice I can offer is to research this until you are sick of reading, then make a build plan. Drive your Dad's Viper, at a school like Bob Bondurant's driving school. This will provide valuable experience as to how you want your car to ultimately operate. Good luck, remember READ, READ, READ, READ.......................................

[johnny_k]

Steve,

I understand where you are coming from. I battled with the idea of attempting something like this myself for a long time. I know I am not experienced enough for this type of project, but I am not going to learn unless I start somewhere. The main reason that I want to do this right the first time is that I don’t like to part with my cars, especially if I have put some time, energy, and tlc into them, so I won’t be selling any vehicles. Also, I really can’t keep more than two vehicles with me because I have to move about every two-three years, so if I buy one I am going to stick with it. Then we get to the idea of working our way to a more glorious vehicle through stages. My apologies, but I am again going to use a stereo analogy. When using an upgrade method you run into one nasty problem. You have already modified the vehicle in some way when going to the second upgrade. Like for new speakers, you may have drilled holes for those speakers, and altered the grill specifically for them, or for new wiring, you may have already run patch cords all over the car to the various amplifier locations. So when you go to upgrade from there you have made your job ten times harder than just starting with something that is stock because maybe you want different speakers that don’t fit the same way, or maybe you don’t want to put the amplifiers and lightning caps in the same place. I just can't seem to get the idea in my head that it is absolutely neccessary that I start small and work my way up. I have some very professional people helping me out with this, and then I have this forum to better educate me. I may just be stubborn, but I like to think of it as determination. If you still think I am wrong, please continue to call me out (to you, and to any other readers), for maybe if enough people tell me enough times I'll be able to figure it out.

Tom,

Thank you for your input. I fully agree that researching is a job with no end, and will continue to do so no matter what I decide to do to the car, or when I decide to start the project. Here is one question for you though. I have been trying to get through a book about welding, but have hit a brick wall. One, it is a horribly long and monotonous read, and second, I don't think that reading this book is really inevitable going to teach me how to weld. This leads me to my more general question. As I am soaking in as much knowledge as I can here, what sort of things would you recommend for gaining skills? I have thought about this, and have looked for some options, but I can't really find much outside of going to a technical school offering some sort of fabrication course. Here is the hitch, I am in the military, and so taking a couple weeks off to go do something like that really isn't an option. I can't even really commit to night, or weekend courses, because I am never sure I am going to get them off either. So how would you go about solving that?

To all, thank you for your help and advice,

John

[spanky the wondermuffin]

check to see if there is a community college or something locally that offers welding and see if you can't find a symethetic teacher who will let you come and go as you can.you really do need the hours of laying beads to get good.might as well use someone else's power,tools and material.learning to weld is very worthwhile.have you asked the army to teach you?i disagree with your speaker hole analogy.an engine is a disposable lump that can be taken out and replaced at any time.just like a tire.it will wear out and need replaced anyway at some point.

[ProdigyCustoms]

You have never really built or driven anything like this? You do not know how to weld, and do not have time to learn or be supervised properly? Since there is a higher then not likely hood you could test some of these welds, I think this is one area I would send to a professional.
I mean, if you do the motor yourself, and it is a slug, it is just slow. If you weld yourself, and the welds are no good and you crash, You die!
Seems like a no brainer to me.
FYI, a friend of mine is brother of Pro Stock champ Greg Anderson. Jeff has had lots of seat time and is an excellent driver that won Night of Fire last year. Last night, at Night of Fire (A big drag race) I watched him barrel roll and endo an ex Warren Johnson car at 170MPH in the lights. He walked away, I am sure he is gald a rookie did not weld that one up!

[zbugger]

When using an upgrade method you run into one nasty problem. You have already modified the vehicle in some way when going to the second upgrade. Like for new speakers, you may have drilled holes for those speakers, and altered the grill specifically for them, or for new wiring, you may have already run patch cords all over the car to the various amplifier locations. So when you go to upgrade from there you have made your job ten times harder than just starting with something that is stock because maybe you want different speakers that don’t fit the same way, or maybe you don’t want to put the amplifiers and lightning caps in the same place.

I disagree. That's not entirely true. I see it as just a new starting point. The point at which what you said is true is when you have the entire car gutted and modified beyond belief, but then again, that is just another starting point. It's true that you do have to start somewhere. Starting small is good. I've known a few people that started big, only to have to sell the car because they couldn't handle it. To be honest with you, I think a 450 hp car is a great starting point, but that's because it's still controllable. To me, at least. For the engine that you want to install in the car, it's almost insane to me to do it without a cage in the car. Mash the pedal once and you will see the wrinkled roof for yourself. You really need to take the proper steps to get the car done right in the first place.


I just can't seem to get the idea in my head that it is absolutely neccessary that I start small and work my way up.

Performance cars are different than performance stereos. Not to be harsh, but tell your EMT that when they pull you out of the car after a car with that much power gets away from you. Safety is very important to me, and it should be to you as well. If you were building it a purely a show car, I'd have a different story, but you plan on driving it. Do it right. Make sure your driving skills are up to the task as well.

[David Pozzi]

I've got a friend who is building a vintage race car, he's never driven one before, he's building a killer 800hp motor for it... I've asked to be put in his will. :)

You can build a car with the all out chassis, brakes, etc, and a more mild engine to start with, learn some things about working on it and driving it, then upgrade the engine later.
You might find you don't want the killer engine because you can seldom use that much power in a street engine and it costs a lot of money.

When your life is on the line, you start small and work up to bigger things.

[Steve Chryssos]

I may just be stubborn, but I like to think of it as determination. If you still think I am wrong, please continue to call me out (to you, and to any other readers), for maybe if enough people tell me enough times I'll be able to figure it out.
John

John,
You're stubborn and you're wrong. But let me say that I, myself, am just as stubborn and I'm wrong most of the time. I just wish I had listened when others provided me with the same advice. So now that I've been through the rinse cycle a few times, I like to at least try to help others avoid the same grief.

I don't want to sound like a broken record. So instead I will tell you that you will be absolutely BLOWN AWAY by the performance of a car with half the engine and half the chassis mods. I PROMISE!

Step 1) A-arms, shocks, springs, sway bar, SFC's, steering box.
Step 2) Brakes, wheels & tires.
Step 3) A Bill Mitchell Hardcore 427 small block will haul ass.
Step 4) A good pair of seats.

And as I said in my first reply, if you're gonna go big--just do the front subframe for now. You'll also be impressed with the performance benefit of a roll bar as well as the safety factor.

Whatever you decide, good luck with the project.