E85 Buring 383

[oddball383]

I am taking a 350 boring and stroking to a 383+. I am planning to run 12.5 to 1 compression(to much not enough) with kieth black hyperutectic pistons, gm performance fast burn 23 degree heads, intake is still in question, and i dont know a thing about alcohol cams.
I know i want something i can cruise the streets with all day long, and i am not looking to race, jsut to show off once in awhile.

[rocketman]

To me there's not enough research into it,right now to burn it,new car companys are having a hard time with it.takes all stainless fuel lines,can't run plastic,the engine will get worse MPG,not better there's a 5 mpg loss on e85,is what I have read.a friend at work has been burning it in his 06 chevy truck and went from 21 mpg to 16.

[oddball383]

I have already switched all the fuel lines, fuel pump, carb, etc. No big deal. Anyone redoing a car is going with stainless fuel/break lines.

Fuel economy may drop but when you compare price for distance its still CHEAPER. I did the research paper for college. Then you have the power gain, along with more O2 exiting though the exhaust. And if your board you can make your own alcohol (get the feds permit first) then add 15% gas. All positives.

[68nate]

I have also been researching E85 to run in my Pontiac. Everything I have read says stainless steel or aluminum fuel line, good filtration, and jet or calibrate approximately 10% richer. Also good to 12:1 compression- most e85 is rated at 110 octane. One of the articles was by a guy who builds race cars to run on E85. I have heard of some hard start issues, though. I will be doing some testing with E85 in the next few months, I'll let you know how it works out.

[dutch]

... a friend at work has been burning it in his 06 chevy truck and went from 21 mpg to 16.

On an engine built for dino gas, E85 is less efficient. Build an engine ethanol specific, and the efficency gap closes by some margin.

The (biggest) problem that I see right now is that it isn't available everywhere. So, if you take a road trip with your e85 specific engine (read high compression), and run out of ethanol ... you can't just fill up with 93 octane.

[rocketman]

WOW,I am surprised,I learned a little .

[Matt]

You stole what I thought was my coolest new idea. Sigh.

Serious props for doing this, I'm very interested to see how it works. There are about 900-1000 stations in the US with e85, so you might not be as SOL as you think with road trips.

[MarkM66]

Just hope the government does stop subsidizing the cost of E85.

[dutch]

There are about 900-1000 stations in the US with e85, so you might not be as SOL as you think with road trips.

Compare that to the well over 100,000 dino gas stations in the US. The closest E85 to me is over 90 miles away. Only 4 (public) in my state of AZ!

[nancejd]

I think the key to all of this is the dual fuel vehicles. If you can use either, people will vote with their wallets at the stations they go to. If enough people buy it, other stations will want to carry it, and soon, it's commonly available.

[68nate]

Vera Sun is one of the largest ethanol producers in the country. They have a couple plants here in Iowa and are building more. They have teamed up with Shell oil company and one of the big three on a big ethanol push. Shell is going to install Vera Sun pumps in several stations in the Chicago area, if it goes well they will expand from there. Wally world has also announced it plans to install E85 pumps in all their gas stations.

[StRacerDuke]

http://www.turbomustangs.com/smf/index.php?topic=47094.0

Here's a great read on E85 on performance applications. A few guys have done real world testing with it so far with great results.

[Fuelie Fan]

I have also been researching E85 to run in my Pontiac. Everything I have read says stainless steel or aluminum fuel line, good filtration, and jet or calibrate approximately 10% richer.

Who told you Al is ok? Aluminums will be corroded by alcohols. To whoever said you can't run plastics, that's also not true. Flex fuel vehicles still use pastic tanks and nylon-6 lines.

some of this has been discussed already:

https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21561&highlight=e85

Be safe and have fun!

[hardline_42]

I think the key to all of this is the dual fuel vehicles. If you can use either, people will vote with their wallets at the stations they go to. If enough people buy it, other stations will want to carry it, and soon, it's commonly available.
I think that dual fuel vehicles really can't do E85 justice. The idea of being able to run on both gasoline and ethanol is nice but the engine can only be optimized for one type of fuel or neither - not both. The engine management system can compensate to allow the engine to run but, as has already been stated, the main performance advantage of E85 is the ability to run very high compression. Since there are so few E85 stations (there aren't any here in NJ), car manufacturers have to design the engines for the lowest common denominator (pump gas compression). The car-buying public only sees less fuel mileage and poor performance from E85 thus making it even less popular even though it's due to the less-than-optimal engine setup. Of course WE know that switching from one fuel to the other is as "easy" as swapping heads or adding forced induction (assuming the corrosion issue has already been addressed) but essentially you have to have a dedicated motor and there isn't enough E85 infrastructure for production vehicles to offer that kind of option. Still, my plan is to farm a few acres and run a turbo diesel truck off of corn oil, a hot rod engine off of ethanol and my alcoholism off of corn liquor! :Alchy:

[element180]

I took this from Wikipedia so take it for what it's worth



Risks

E85 can cause damage, since prolonged exposure to high concentrations of ethanol may corrode metal and rubber parts in older engines (pre-1988) designed primarily for gasoline. The hydroxyl group (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxyl_group) on the ethanol molecule (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molecule) is an extremely weak acid, but it can enhance corrosion for some natural materials. For post-1988 fuel-injected engines, all the components are already designed to accommodate E10 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E10) (10% ethanol) blends through the elimination of exposed magnesium and aluminum metals and natural rubber and cork gasketed parts. Hence, there is a greater degree of flexibility in just how much more ethanol may be added without causing ethanol-induced damage, varying by automobile manufacturer. Anhydrous ethanol in the absence of direct exposure to alkali metals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alkali_metal) and bases is non-corrosive; it is only when water is mixed with the ethanol that the mixture becomes corrosive to some metals. Hence, there is no appreciable difference in the corrosive properties between E10 and a 50:50 blend of E10 gasoline and E85 (47.5% ethanol), provided there is no water present, and the engine was designed to accommodate E10. Nonetheless, operation with more than 10% ethanol has never been recommended by car manufacturers in non-FFVs. Operation on up to 20% ethanol is generally considered safe for all post-1988 cars and trucks.
In addition to corrosion, there is also a risk of increased engine wear for non-FFV engines that are not specifically designed for operation on high levels (i.e., for greater than 10%) of ethanol. The risk primarily comes in the rare event that the E85 fuel ever becomes contaminated with water. For water levels below approximately 0.5% to 1.0% contained in the ethanol, no phase separation of gasoline and ethanol occurs. For contamination with 1% or more water in the ethanol, phase separation occurs, and the ethanol-water mixture will separate from the gasoline. This can be observed by pouring a mixture of suspected water-contaminated E85 fuel in a clear glass tube, waiting roughly 30 minutes, and then inspecting the sample. If there is water contamination of above 1% water in the ethanol, a clear separation of ethanol-water from gasoline will be clearly visible, with the colored gasoline floating above the clear ethanol-water mixture.
For ethanol contaminated with larger amounts of water (i.e., approximately 11% water, 89% ethanol, equivalent to 178 proof ethanol), considerable engine wear will occur, especially during times while the engine is heating up to normal operating temperatures. For example, just after starting the engine, low temperature partial combustion of the water-contaminated ethanol mixture takes place and causes engine wear. This wear, caused by water-contaminated E85, is the result of the combustion process of ethanol, water, and gasoline producing considerable amounts of formic acid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formic_acid) (HCOOH, also known as methanoic acid and sometimes written as CH2O2). In addition to the production of formic acid occurring for water-contaminated E85, smaller amounts of acetaldehyde (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetaldehyde) (CH3CHO) and acetic acid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetic_acid) (C2H4O2) are also formed for water-contaminated ethanol combustion. Of these partial combustion products, formic acid is responsible for the majority of the rapid increase in engine wear.
Engines specifically designed for FFVs employ soft nitride (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitride) coatings on their internal metal parts to provide resistance to formic acid wear in the event of water contamination of E85 fuel. Also, the use of lubricant oil (motor oil) containing an acid neutralizer is necessary to prevent the damage of oil-lubricated engine parts in the event of water contamination of fuel. Such lubricant oil is required by at least one manufacturer of FFVs even to this day (Chrysler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler)).
For non-FFVs burning E85 in greater than 23.5% E85 mixtures (20% ethanol), the remedy for accidentally getting a tank of water-contaminated E85 (or gasoline) while preventing excessive engine wear is to change the motor oil as soon as possible after either burning the fuel and replacing it with non-contaminated fuel, or after immediately draining and replacing the water-contaminated fuel. The risk of burning slightly water-contaminated fuel with low percentages of water (less than 1%) on a long commute is minimal; after all, it is the low temperature combustion of water contaminated ethanol and gasoline that causes the bulk of the formic acid to form; burning a slightly-contaminated mix of water (less than 1%) and ethanol quickly, in one long commute, will not likely cause any appreciable engine wear past the first 15 miles of driving, especially once the engine warms up and high temperature combustion occurs exclusively.
For those making their own E85, the risk of introducing water unintentionally into their homemade fuel is relatively high unless adequate safety precautions and quality control procedures are taken. Ethanol and water form an azeotrope (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azeotrope) such that it is impossible to distill ethanol to higher than 95.6% ethanol purity by weight (roughly 190 proof); regardless of how many times distillation is repeated. Unfortunately, this proof ethanol contains too much water to prevent separation of a mixture of such proof ethanol with gasoline, or to prevent the formation of formic acid during low temperature combustion. Therefore, when making E85, it becomes necessary to remove this residual water. It is possible to break the ethanol and water azeotrope through adding benzene or another hydrocarbon prior to a final rectifying distillation. This takes another distillation (energy consuming) step. However, it is possible to remove the residual water more easily, using 3 angstrom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angstrom) (3A) synthetic zeolite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeolite) pellets to absorb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absorption) the water from the mix of ethanol and water, prior to mixing the now anhydrous ethanol with gasoline in an 85% to 15% by volume mixture to make E85. This absorption process is also known as a molecular sieve (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molecular_sieve). The benefit of using synthetic zeolite pellets is that they are essentially comparable to using a catalyst (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalyst), in being reusable and in not being consumed in the process, and the pellets require only re-heating (perhaps on a backyard grill, in a solar reflector furnace, or with heated carbon dioxide gas collected and saved from the fermentation process) to drive off the water molecules absorbed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absorption) into the zeolite. Research has also been done at Purdue University on using corn grits as a desiccant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desiccant). [3] (http://news.uns.purdue.edu/UNS/html3month/820611.Ladisch.corngrits.html) Once the ground corn becomes water logged, the corn grits can be processed much as the zeolite pellets, at least for a number of drying cycles before the grits lose their effectiveness. Once this occurs, it is possible to run the now water-logged corn grits through the natural fermentation process and convert them into even more ethanol fuel.
Running a non-FFV with a high percentage of ethanol will cause the air fuel mixture to be leaner than normal in carbureted or open loop fuel injection engines, and cause closed loop fuel injection systems to adjust for the increase in oxygen content of the fuel mixture. A lean mixture, when leaner than stoichiometric, is unlikely to cause heat related engine damage because temperature decreases quickly once there is a surplus of air during the combustion event. The surplus air cools the burn, and lowers the exhaust gas temperature. The effects of surplus oxygen on the catalytic converter may be undesirable, and if too lean the engine will display roughness in operation. If the percentage of ethanol used results in sustained operation in the range between stoichiometric and best power mixture, problems may develop. In this range, between peak exhaust gas temperature and approximately 50 degrees rich of peak, combustion temperatures are at the highest possible, and may exceed the design temperatures for the engine. Detonation margins are reduced, and if operation at elevated temperatures is allowed to persist over considerable periods of time, heat related damage to valves and pistons can occur. Without in depth knowledge of the engine's mixture control system and instrumentation to monitor exhaust gas temperature, cylinder head temperature, cylinder pressure, and/or exhaust oxygen content, it is difficult to know whether the engine is operating in the "red" zone, or an acceptable mixture zone. Closed loop fuel injection systems eliminate much of the risk. This is also why the check engine light will illuminate if you mix more than around 50% to 60% E85 by volume with your gasoline in a non-FFV. If this happens, just add more 87 octane regular grade gasoline as soon as possible to correct the problem. (Some premium blends contain up to 10% ethanol; to correct the problem as quickly as possible, always add regular grade gasoline, not premium grade gasoline.) These fuel/air mixture related problems will not happen in a properly-converted vehicle.




You stole what I thought was my coolest new idea. Sigh.

Serious props for doing this, I'm very interested to see how it works. There are about 900-1000 stations in the US with e85, so you might not be as SOL as you think with road trips.

Actually,I think it's closer to 1500 but still not nearly enough for widespread use.

[nancejd]

But performance won't cause stations to add more dispensers and tanks that can pump it. How many places actually have the Sunoco 100 octane for instance. Dual fuel vehicles aren't the end of the chain, they are the beginning.

Let me put it another way. Who in their right mind would buy an E-85 only vehicle daily driver vehicle right now? Even if you had 10,000 stations nationwide, they would mostly be concentrated in a few locations. It would be like having an electric vehicle. You could drive it locally, but long trips become an impossibility.

Dual fuel solves this problem in the same way that hybrids do. Notice how the manufacturers are starting to offer their hybrids with plug ins? It's the same deal.

Now for a project vehicle, I think E-85 would be cool as a single fuel vehicle, provided you actually have access to it.

[pdq67]

Vera Sun is one of the largest ethanol producers in the country.

Fwiw, ADM is the largest producer of the stuff!!

The owner contribute's to BOTH poli parties so that he gets his 50 cents/gallon sub!!!

As well as to keep a 54 cents/gallon tariff on imported Ehthanol!!

As for CR., go 13.5 to 1!!

And E85's octane is 105 or so!!

pdq67