Best 1st Gen Bolt On Suspension Kit?

[BRIAN]

Looking for kit type suspension that providesZ06 style handling. Not looking to impress anybody with Vette suspension or big dollar conversion that doesn't do anything but look good. I am looking for easy bolt on or little mod set up that is proven package. I know you guys have just about evry 1st gen set up out there so I know you can tell me what works and which mfg is just full of S@#$ with their claims. I am not looking to tune or adjust everything every other ride. Anybody have proven ideas? Global West? Hotchhkis? Martz?This is "touring" car not SCCA racer. It will be going in a 1968 Firebird. Thanks

[baz67]

Well there are going to be many opinions on this. I will give it a shot.

The front: GW or DSE uppers. Stock lowers with GW del-a-lum bushings. Lowering spring at around 500-550 lbs/in for a small block. Shocks-Bilstein or IAS. Hotchkis front sway bar.

The rear: DSE or Hotchkis leafs and a good set of shocks. GW del-a-lum bushings for the leafs. NO rear sway bar.

Finally a good set of rims and tires. 245 on a 8.5" rim for the front and 275 on a 9.5" rim on the rear. You can have the worlds best hardware on the car, but will handle like a truck if you can not get traction to the ground.
Brian

[Flyboy]

Well, right now i'm planning on going with the DSE front coilover conversion kit, and POSSIBLY the Wayne Due IRS install kit for a C4 independant rear.

I really want to see what this new DSE front subframe kit is going to look like when it comes out next year though. :candle:

[BRIAN]

I will retain stock frame which only mods will be to weld the seams and that is info I was looking for but do you actually use this set up? Rear will be mini tubbed. I am looking into either Global or DSE full kits at this time but am open to ideas. I am looking for easy project that I don't have to be engineer to set up.I want to spend my time building not on computer like I am today. I am asking because I really want set up were someone can tell me that is what they have and how it works and possibly maybe a performance number to substantiate it. It will be full tilt approx 500 real Hp stick shift SBC car. I want reliability not a race set up or pieces that kind of work together and need constant tinkering. Thanks any help is appreciated.

[zman1969]

Well im doing GW uppers , del-a-lum lower bushings and hotchkis frt and rear springs, not sure how big frt sway bar i have 1" and 1 1/8" avail but im putting a ls1 in so i think 1" will be enough since theyre lighter than a SB. oh i also did DSE subframe connectors too -not running so i cant tell you how it is yet

[baz67]

Brian, you said bolt on so I did not include the DSE coilover conversion. I am using the DSE conversion at the Guldstrand location with GW uppers. Stock lowers with del-a-lum bushings. Hotchkis sway bar.
Brian

[Marcus SC&C]

Brian,sounds like you`re not into fluff. That`s cool. IMO the package that makes the most profound improvement in suspension geometry will give you the best performance potential. Once that`s done you select the springs,then tune with shock rate and swaybars. Our Street Comp Stage 2 package is the only one I`m aware of that will raise the RC height and improve the camber curves in a meaningful way right out of the box. Combine it with redrilling the perches ala Guldstrand and you`ve got some seriously good geometry for hardcore handling. It also virtually eliminates bumpsteer,making the car more pleasant to drive and more predictable when driving it hard. The adj. tubular arms let you dial in perfect no compromise performance alignment settings and lock them in. Once set you can forget about em. Combine it with the right tires,a set of HO Racing or DSE springs,a set of adj. aluminum QA1 shocks (set at 5F/4R) and a 1" front bar and you`ll have a very formidable combination for challenging a Z06. You can check it out at www.SCandC.com and e-mail or call us with any questions or for details on putting a complete program together for your car. Marcus

[Mkelcy]

I guess I'd suggest stock UCA's and LCA's with either GW or DSE bushings, Guldstrand mod, decent shocks and springs, a Hotchkiss hollow front sway bar and big tires on 17's.

It's relatively cheap and I think you'll be amazed at how well it handles. It's what I've got and (although I've not done any road race work) it handles incredibly well on the Angles Crest Highway and doesn't beat me up when I visit my son at UC Santa Cruz, a 350 mile trip one way.

[yody]

has anyone here used marcus's kit or pieces? i am not the supsension guru but it sounds pretty good. Marcus, maybe someone needs a sponsorship? :)

[baz67]

Markus could you please explain how it increaces the RC without going to a taller spindle that much more than the other way. Remember Brian stated he did not want to tinker with it. Your system looks great, but it could also be very confusing to one that does not understand what the adjustments mean. I am sure your support is great as well, but still every chassis is different.

I have yet to measure the camber curve on the set-up that I am going to use. It will be measured sometime in December(damn work). It would be interesting to compare the curves on your system to the ones already measured.
Brian

[groove22]

I have hotchkis front and rear springs with their sway bar and bilstein shocks. For a true bolt on kit I was impressed. I have other suspension products in my previous cars and this is better than those, (intrax, eibach, tein). The only drawback is the rear shocks they are very stiff but you can used to that. I drove it 86 miles on Texas interstate and it was not that bad, and their interstate is concrete slabs so plenty of bumps in the road. The price is not that bad either. I am going to change the upper and lower control arms when I have the money, they will either be GW or DS&E. I have had the springs for more thatn year and just put bigger wheels tires on. The difference is huge. Good luck on the choices.

Allen

[Marcus SC&C]

Yody,a certain well known fellow from this forum (his initials are D.P. ;) ) has the very first production set of 1st gen tall ball joints (and a 2nd gen set). We may have to wait until next season to get his on track reactions though. :( You should be seeing a Street Comp G-5 and A-6 at SEMA next year though. :)

Baz,it`s pretty simple. It doesn`t really matter how tall the spindle is (technically). What we REALLY care about is the location of the ball joint pivot points. See where I`m going with this? A taller spindle will raise the upper pivot point but so will a taller ball joint stud. :) That`s where the trick modular ball joints come in. Combine this change with some version of the G mod and you end up with a very nice performance camber curve and RC height. RC lateral migration is moderate too. To install the package you just bolt the tall BJs into the tubular arms,replace the stock arms with the tubular ones. Set the alignment using the UCA adjustment sleeves (no shims to mess with),lock the nuts down and you`re done. You can change the adjustments easily if you go to the track or something but on a street car just set it and forget about it. :) The install of a Stg.1 package can take less than an hour (+ alignment). Maybe 1.5 hours for a 1st Gen Stg.2 (+alignment). If you`d like to check out the camber gain etc. go to our site (www.SCandC.com),click on Suspension Packages,then click Street Comp Suspension Specs. There are some graphics that give a pretty good idea of the differences between stock and our modified packages. Marcus

[BRIAN]

MARCUS am I missing the pricing on your web site?

[spanky the wondermuffin]

hey marcus-still can't access your site.what kind of bushings do the pole position arms use?for bolt on stuff the guldstrand mod,springs,shocks,tires,sleeved solid bushings and a sway bar in front and any of the well known leafs out back will work well.i have used that combo.from there i went to the dse coil-over kit,but that is not bolt on.works well.i've since modified that kit,moving the coilover mount as close to the ball joint as i could and raising the upper mount.all phases have seen track and street time.if those upper bj's are the ones i'm guessing they are they also are a precision low friction unit,and you can also get matching low friction lowers.i might give it a shot myself,do it at the track.establish a baseline then swich them out.

[nkopper]

How does the SC&C package compare to the 1" taller SED (or Tyler's ATS) uprights using factory control arms? Specs are here: http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/projectbuild/4526/index1.html

Since the SED uprights were designed to maximize performance with factory a-arms, I don't know if the adjustable a-arms would be more of a help or hinderance. Being able to switch between a street and more aggressive track setting in minimal time would be pretty cool, though.

Nathan

[Fuelie Fan]

I'd be nervous about using extended ball joints on the LCA. What kind of design, analysis, and testing have you done to prove that they won't fail if, for example, I hit a pothole at high speeds?

[BRIAN]

After doing some reserach I am now unsure how I will go with build up. I want big rear tire for looks and with that comes cutting rear floor and wheel houses so why not go all the way with 4 bar set up. Also when adding up pricing on front with a coil over conversion kit it borderlines cost of replacement clip. I will see if I can conatain myself to simple bolt ons. I hate to fall into the flash with no added benifit trap but put the two cars side by side and well we know which won't get a second look. Same reason guys bolt in 1000hp engines into cars with street tires, the attention it gets!

[73novaguy]

Marcus. I would prolly be interested in a stage one kit this winter. But I def need some prices! As Speedtech, Global West, and DSE all offer some very reasonable prices for UCAs.

Brian. Sorry bout getting off topic there! I would reccomend going with the new (DSE, Global West, Speedtech) UCA's with a improved shock! You don't need coilovers unless you want to change the ride height of the car often! Just go with some affordable Bilsteins or some other brand with some newer valving they offer! True, they are not adjustable, but with a up to date valved shock, you will also be happy. Swaybar for the front. Then go with a good set of rear leafs from Global or DSE. They all offer good products! Don't get to worried about who has what and how they like them! Cause you will hear 100 different combos and 100 different tatses! Just what fits your budget and goals! Oh ya, then save some cash and get a decent wheel/tire combo for it. (17's or 18's) The low profile sidewall will make huge strides in handling just by tire and wheel! Good luck and keep us informed!

[Marcus SC&C]

All the prices are on the site,just click on Prices and Applications. :) An early Camaro Street Comp Stg.1 runs $529.90 (adj.UCAs and tall modular UBJs). SC Stg.2 is $689.90 (adj.UCAs,tall modular LBJs and tall modular tie rod ends for bumpsteer correction). Pro Lite aluminum sleeve UCAs add $30 and polished nickle plated BJs and tie rod ends add $10ea.

Spanky,the arms use high durometer rubber bushings (comparable to 1LE bushings) will fairly thin cross sections for low loss. The race style arms use greasable steel bushings.

Nathan,the specs on that link aren`t complete but I can give you a rough idea from that. With our package and stock inner UCA pickup points ours is less aggressive. The camber curves are mild and the RC is slightly lower. Used in conjunction with the G mod,which we recomend,ours has a slightly higher RC than those diagrams show and should have more aggressive camber curves. I assume you mean that that package would be used with stock LCAs and modified or aftermarket UCAs? If not the stock UCAs would certainly achieve UBJ bind before they reached their full jounce travel. The UCAs have virtually no effect on geometry (aside from caster),basically they just hold the UBJ in place. Ours are modular so we can assemble them to suit each application perfectly. In most cases customers just set them and forget about them but the beauty of it is that you can dial the alignment in exactly how you want it with no compromises (which you can`t always do with shims,especially on modified vehicles). Of course if you road race or autocross the adjustability is priceless.

Fuelie, the modular UBJs and tie rod ends were designed and tested originally for circle track racing including Nextel Cup. Due to the extreme stresses of the banked tracks,banging into other cars and walls and crashing racers were constantly replacing BJs. These were developed to A) outlast stock BJs under harsh race conditions B) to allow replacement of studs without replacing the BJ body (which in racing are usually welded in the LCAs) C) allow easy geometry changes with different height studs (pins) D) to give smoother suspension travel and easier steering effort through superior materials and machining and adjustable tension. Since their introduction they`ve become really popular with the race crowd because they work exactly as advertised. I came into the picture when I saw they babys and realized how great they`d be for correcting the geometry on classic muscle cars. I talked them into producing them for muscle car applications and did a lot of street testing for them. I`ve had a Stg.2 package with tall UBJ/LBJs on my `86 Monte test/driver for 25K Pa. rough street miles. Rain,snow,giant potholes etc. it`s seen it all and it`s just as tight today as it was when I installed the package. Marcus

[spanky the wondermuffin]

as far as potholes go-running a skinny little 245 on an 18"rim is probably the weak point in a lot of 'pro touring' cars.