Opening up a can of worms...

[Turbo T]

Before I get into this, I'd like to point out that I realize how broad of a topic this is, and how widely the answers can vary based on the unique design of the specific car involved. I'm not trying to get anyone here to do "the hard work" for me and figure out everything I need to do to make my car handle, I just have some thoughts and questions. That being said, here goes:

I'm getting really frustrated. :help: While it is, of course, plausible to make a 3500lb car handle, even if it wasn't designed to do so in the first place, how difficult and expensive is it to get a car to actually do this? I know there are people here with 35 year-old cars that handle like go-karts, but these folks seem to have things like engineering degrees, plasma cutters, and very deep pockets, or they work for GM, or own their own race team or something. I am just turning 26, make a paltry wage in the military (until Feb. 07), and have, at best, a basic set of tools. No lift, no tig welder, no flux capacitor, etc. I do know my way around a car, and understand the systems and parts that make it all work, and I'm learning more with every project I tackle, but I was raised on carbs and straight-line performance, so suspension is DEFINITELY my weakest subject.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a154/deadxxreckoning/Motorwerks/bookcoversmall.jpg) I'm reading this book right now, and it's telling me all sorts of great information on how to make a car handle, and I'm pretty sure I now understand the theory of caster, camber, toe in/out, rebound, compression, etc. but this knowledge has only complicated my dilemma. For one thing, I still can't afford Brembo brakes or a completely new subframe or anything like that, but now I feel like a simple upgrade of the stock components isn't going to really do anything. Where do I start!?!?

Another thing... I can't think of one book or mag I've seen where someone explained how these types of modifications work in the real world. Okay, great, so the 2nd Gen Camaro test car with coil-overs, sway bars, new bushings, and airbags can outperform a stock 2nd Gen by 4mph in the slalom. WHO CARES!? I mean, yeah that's great, but I don't know what .86 G's feels like in a corner versus .83 G's, and while I understand that the modded car is better than the stock car, can it hang with a C5 Corvette now? Is it even close? Or did all that suspension work simply enable it to outhandle other stock 2nd Gen?

I've read about 50% of the book and I still have no friggin' idea where to begin on my car. I just keep finding more and more parts that I think I need or else I'll end up dumping money into a suspension set-up that's completely imbalanced and unpredictable (ie. a waste of money).

I try to be realistic. I don't expect to be able to get Z06 handling on a tight budget any more than I expect to run 9's on a tight budget, but I still need to know where to spend my money first, and on what. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:


BTW, if anyone DOES feel like doing the hard work for me :poke: , or just has a bit of advice to offer, I drive an '87 Buick Regal T with completely stock suspension, save for a few frame and body braces.

[ProStreet R/T]

Do more research... read these forums, specifically those where we get into some deep suspension theory. Yes it will give you a headache, but at some point certain things will make sense.

One thing, it's all just THEORY till you try it out on YOUR car and see what it does. If I tell you my silver state viper ran 1/8" toe in all around with 4* camber it would be absolutely worthless to any other vehicle... in any other setup race wise. You have to find a balance YOU like. And it's very dependant on vehicle, tires, wheels, power, weight, and a gazillion other things.

Simple answer... there isn't one. Racers kill themselves for hundreads of hours to figure out what works, and one change of any piece and f-up the whole setup.

It sounds like you want something simple that will get the job done, not too involved adjustment wise so you can't get yourself in trouble, and it won't be a waste of money in the long run.

Based on that assessment alone buy THIS (http://www.hotchkis.net/cgi-bin/EDCstore.pl?user_action=list&category=Shop%20by%20Make%3BBuick%3BRegal%3B1978-1988)

I've used Hotchkis parts on many different platforms and it just plain works. No frills, no b/s, they stand behind what they build and it will absolutely do everything they claim.

Don't mess around, get the whole TVS kit and be done with it. If you haven't yet, put some good bushings in the front a-arms and save a few $$$ for a better set of shocks.

Later on you can upgrade the brakes as $$ allows. Add to that a bigger set of wheels and better tires.

But guaranteed the TVS setup will make you very happy. Heck i've made a few guys in C5 Z06's cry with a TVS setup on a flippin dodge dakota.

[THX 138]

You could start with a good handling car in the first place like a 3rdgen f-body, Those are wicked before the weight wears out the high end springs and shocks.

[vanzuuk1]

Forget if it can hang with a vette,gm spends millions on development so the vette will ride and handle a certain way. But if you go to an autocross full of vettes you will be faster than some and slower than others. If you are behind a vette on the street and hes going faster and you just cant catch him, you are both probably close to winding up in a ditch.

I agree with prostreet,pick a system by a company you like and get the whole package. Dirve the car and enjoy the journey,you may change a few parts along the way but make it safe and tweak it to the way you want it.

I have a "bolt on" car, nothing trick, and I love driving it.

Thats my opinion, some will disagree.

[ProTouring442]

I'm in agreement here. While I am no expert, I've been reading a LOT on this board and I think I have a good idea as to what I need for my car. Since your G-body suffers from the same sort of problems as my A-body, I'll give you my formula and you can run with it as you wish.

Front:

-Global West upper & lower A-arms made for a tall spindle. The lower here is more for looks and the fact that my originals were cracked. I don't think the lower is required at all. Del-Alum bushings on both upper & lower. H/O racing 1-3/8 front bar (big block car) and H/O racing springs. KYB Gas-A-Just shocks (but I should have gone with Bilstiens).

-ATS AFX spindle (not yet purchased). It is the same height as the B-body spindle but corrects the bump steer problems. Also accepts Corvette brakes.

-ATS p/s box (not yet purchased). Should really tighten up the steering with great road feel.

-18' repro Corvette Z06 wheels (to clear the brakes) with bolt on adapters. Cheap way of getting exactly the back spacing you need. You can always skim an 1/8" off of the adapter by having a good machine shop chuck it up in their lathe.

Rear Suspension:

-Ford 9" (big block car) with a good limited slip.

-Johnny joints in the upper controll arms (Eldelbrock).

-Johnny jounts in the lowers. No urethane on any of these, bind is your enemy!

-1-3/8 H/O racing bar. Again this is because it is a big block convertible. Still, this might be a bit too big and I may go to the next size down.

-H/O racing springs and KYB shocks. Air Lift air bags for assistance when the trunk is loaded.

SC&C, Global West, or Hotchkis springs and bars should work for you. Do a lot of searching on this site or the Lat-G site and you should get a lot of good info. I don't know about outrunning the Vette, but you should be able to have a nice, modern, tight car for a reasonable amount of money.

Shiny Side Up!
Bill
'72 442 "Inamorata"
www.fquick.com/ProTouring442

[XCESSIV]

Bin there donethat
I have done most of the work for you already.
Suspension a match set of springs Hotsk, Eiback, will work Urethane busing for your front sway bar upfront it is already a 1 1/4" if you can urethatne the front control arms too. Shocks any good shock works well Edlebrock, Koni, Blisten, Rear suspension you can buy lower control arms or box yours in and urethane bush them HRparts sell the kit to box them in IF you want to go bigger sway bar in the back you can or use a set of Airlift bags in the rear. Make sure you have replaced the missing body bushing from the bottom of the car that buick left off. Tires any thing with a v,w,z rating gives you a stiff side wall the bigger the better you don't need name brand:1st:

[ProTouring442]

Rear suspension you can buy lower control arms or box yours in and urethane bush them HRparts sell the kit to box them in IF you want to go bigger sway bar in the back you can or use a set of Airlift bags in the rear.:1st:

Very very very bad! The arms need to be able to twist to avoid bind. Bind leads to snap oversteer which leads to you ruining the nice upholstery in the driver's seat.

Do a quick search, there are about 10 threads on this. Trust me, I came out on the loosing end of at least one of them and stand corrected. Urethane is bad in the rear bushings on the A & G bodies, not to mention the Fox Mustangs.

Shiny Side Up!
Bill
'72 442 "Inamorata"
www.fquick.com/ProTouring442

[Nine Ball]

Simple version?

-stiffen the chassis. 10-point cage works wonders, even a welded-in 6-point helps tons.
-tighten up all the suspension mounting points, with better bushings or solid bushings.
-stiffen up the shocks and swaybars
-get the center of gravity lower in your car
-good tires. Most people fail to do this, tires are the biggest factor.

If you tackle those, then tweak the geometry up front to find what works, you will be well on your way.

[XCESSIV]

You may be right on the bushing but if you tring any kind of drag racing the rubber bushings if orginal will move around and put the rearend out of alingment. Ther is a lot of flex in the rear of a turbo buick because of the torque. with my current set up i can put the car side ways any time I want because it is predictable, you have to remeber if it still stock it is 20 years old so freshin it up will make a good difference in feel.

[Gonzostyle]

I am surprised no one has really said this, spend some money on yourself and take some driving lessons. Learn what the car is doing and why the car does it. Once you become a better driver you will know where your car needs help. Just my 2 pennies.

-Jeremie

[vanzuuk1]

THATS good advice.

[Ralph LoGrasso]

-good tires. Most people fail to do this, tires are the biggest factor.

This needs to be emphasized more. I see a lot of guys dump tons of money into their suspensions and brakes and cheap out on the tires. A good set of sticky tires is one of the single best upgrades you can do to your car, IMO. I'm not saying run out and buy a set of Michelin Pilot Sport PS2s at $400 each (though do so if you'd like), for the budget minded guys, there are are budget tires (such as the Kumhos I run on my camaro) that are just as sticky but not as expensive.

[Bow Tie 67]

Yes, Yes, Yes on tires.

This is my second year running timed runs on road courses with my 4th gen Camaro. I have the highest tread wear tires in my class rated at 340 ( yes I'm being cheap, for now ) At our last event this year, I have come to with in 9/10's of a second from second place. Most racers are running 100 tread wear tires, so at this point I'm attributing it to my driving skills getting better. The next thing I plan on doing prior to any other change will be to get better tires.

Experience and Tires are the two most important things when racing. All the horsepower in the world only gets you into trouble that much faster. If your stock brakes are acceptable then go with suspension mods first then brakes. If not brakes are a must!!

Now if your only interested in parking lot AX, brakes are not as critical.

[novanutcase]

I third the tire post! Start there and build inward! Before anything though you got to ask yourself what the car will be used primarily for. If it is pure street then you can probably keep the stock CA's and, like nineball says, tighten up the all the suspension points. You'll feel a world of difference by just doing this. You might want to lower your car a little by cutting a coil off the stock springs. Be careful about getting springs that are too stiff as this will compromise ride comfort and not really give you an appreciable difference from stock. Maybe a thicker roll bar. Definitely a cheap way to improve handling. If you want a good primer on suspension and chassis design buy Herb Adams "Chassis Engineering". It is great if you are new to the world of supsensions as it will hold your hand through all the terminology and what each does. It may seem a little daunting at first with all the formulas but if you stick with it and read it over a few times things will start to make sense.

[ProTouring442]

You may be right on the bushing but if you tring any kind of drag racing the rubber bushings if orginal will move around and put the rearend out of alingment. Ther is a lot of flex in the rear of a turbo buick because of the torque. with my current set up i can put the car side ways any time I want because it is predictable, you have to remeber if it still stock it is 20 years old so freshin it up will make a good difference in feel.

Go with the Johnny Joints then, no flex but they allow the twist you need to be able to have lean in the diff.

Looks like a cool ride for sure!!!

Shiny Side Up!
Bill
'72 442 "Inamorata"
www.fquick.com/ProTouring442 (http://www.fquick.com/ProTouring442)

[XCESSIV]

Tires are what meet the pavement I have Toyo T1R they seem to be very sticky now their not like having my MT drag radials in the back, but when I drove the Tail of the Dragon they took a lot of abuse and kept me on the road. Drivers well said that some people need some assistance in their driving, I was very fortunate to start autocrossing in my early 20's with my lowered 77 Regal S/R. I was taught by a 4 time national champion who drove a 1970 Trans Am he was very helpful in teaching how to aproach a curve , pick out the apex when to brake and get back on the gas. It was a great learning lesson for life and how to avoid every day driving acccidents and learn what a car does in panic sit:drive2: urations.