What to get now that WD has closed ???? [Archive]

rob07002

09-19-2006, 11:48 AM

Since I've commited to an aftermarket sub and went from leaning toward a Martz or CA frame over to a WD what do I do now.

Origianally the two above sounded like a farirly good deal, but since then I was convinced I could do better with WD and some trips to the salvage yard for c4 parts for roughly the same price.

Now that he is no longer building new subs what to do? 21st and DSE are out of my price range.

ilovefirstgens

09-19-2006, 12:26 PM

whats wrong with building a stock one? and am i remembering correctly that lateral dynamics was gonna come out with one...

rob07002

09-20-2006, 05:34 AM

Well mainly I like the clean look the aftermarket piece gives and R & P steering is a must.

I'm usually a function over form guy, but I must admit I like the WOW factor also.

hamrhed97

09-20-2006, 08:02 AM

I'm in the same boat...I have a 67 Firebird Convert. and I had just managed get my hands on the C4 suspension parts when I read about Wayne Due closing shop. Does anyone know if Wayne will open up shop again? I wanted to go aftermarket for the improved geometry, rack & pinion steering, and tire clearance. Is anyone out there making a subframe comparable to Wayne's in price and functionality?

ilovefirstgens

09-20-2006, 10:56 AM

Well mainly I like the clean look the aftermarket piece gives and R & P steering is a must.

I'm usually a function over form guy, but I must admit I like the WOW factor also.

Get yourself a stocker, get a grinder and goto work! Im saving up for a 21st century rig and have a unisteer rack i wont need...

Steve Chryssos

09-20-2006, 11:41 AM

rob07002

09-20-2006, 11:49 AM

Lean AWAY from the Martz and CA subs if you are into overall function. 21st Century makes a great subframe and so does DSE. If you have time to wait, I'm sure other good clips will find their way onto the market.

Steve, you know something we don't?????????:secret:

Brian, I hear you about the stocker and a grinder ( I have both ) but I just made my mind a long time ago that I wanted to go with aftermarket.

Before WD closed he was working on a sub that would use all the cool guy arms and such with a fairly decient price tag, now that would be awsome!

Mean 69

09-20-2006, 12:35 PM

It is my understanding that Art Morrison's team will be coming out with their version of a replacement front clip in the next couple of months, I don't know any details, but they are obviously pretty savy in terms of suspension systems. We (Lateral Dynamics) will also be coming out with front suspension setups, initially based on the stock front frames (which can work a lot better than people think), and later with a new, completely custom setup. All of the suspension design is done, it is just a question of completing the mechanical engineering and design, prototyping, and testing, much of which is actually happening already. That doesn't take long ----- yeah right. Anyway, we have one customer committed to using our revised stock based setup (which will employ the bitchin' ATS spindles), and another for the full boogie version, along with our own test mules, so everything is in place, it's just a question of timing. If you are on a tight schedule for a aftermarket replacement frame deal, don't count on us in the next few months, we have our plate very, very full.

By the way, I think we will be one of the few "newer" aftermarket suspension companies coming out with a completely new front setup that DOESN'T use a Corvette spindle (i.e. DSE, WD, 21st, XV, etc)!

A modified stock setup will work better than you probably think if the correct parts are chosen, by the way.

Mark

silver69camaro

09-20-2006, 01:22 PM

Like Mark said, we'll have our own subframe out soon. The future will be pretty exciting for Camaro guys who want subframes, between us, Lateral Dynamics, DSE and others, there will be a very diverse selection that should fit most people's needs.

I'm pretty excited to drive the prototype in the near future. With much less than 1" of lateral roll center migration, excellent dynamic bumpsteer characteristics, and fantastic camber gain should make a properly setup Camaro an absolute blast to drive. I am indeed a track bruiser, so you can bet your right foot that it will be pushed to its limits.

67bird

09-20-2006, 03:13 PM

Not to steal the thread, but:

Matt,
Will the new frame let us Firebird guys use a Pontiac motor? I presented the same question to DSE and they thought their's would, but honestly I don't see how with the way the frame is designed to accomodate the R&P. The first gen frame mounts have supports that tie into the lower control arm mounting point. I know that we (First gen Firebird owners) don't represent a huge part of the market, but I just though I would throw it out there. I know before WD closed I had discussed with him the posibility of making a version of the frame that he made with the DSE components but with mounts for a Pontiac engine and he said it was possible. I was really interested in one of these, but have since decided on revising my stocker due to the issues mentioned above by using a Pontiac engine.

silver69camaro

09-21-2006, 05:30 AM

Ben, that's an excellent question. One of the salesmen here brought up that idea and I thought it would be great if we could do that. I am currently working on trying to get dimensions for a Pontiac motor to see if this is possible. However, I will admit, small blocks and LS motors will be priority for their reduced weight. We here are serious about functionality as you probably know from Art's '55 Chev, so anything we can do to make something perform better will be at the top of the list.

So anyway, at the moment, I'm trying to locate a Pontiac motor that I can measure.

Steve Chryssos

09-21-2006, 06:09 AM

Steve, you know something we don't?????????:secret:

Yeah. That AME and Lateral Dynamics have clips in the works. Big secret now, huh. If you hold a gun to my head and ask me to guess, I'd say that the AME parts will be a natural extension of the Wayne Due clips and the Lateral Dynamics kit will think outside the box and take things to another level.

I don't know what it is about front clips, but I'd guess that there will be others as well. As a businessman, I view it as financial suicide to jump into a market where the sales price is high and the pie is cut up into many slices. But the clips will keep coming.

If you would like to read a more in depth article on the DSE clip, check out the MuscleRides.com web magazine.

http://www.musclerides.com/Pages/Members/DSE0701_1.php

silver69camaro

09-21-2006, 06:25 AM

Steve,
Your attitude comes off negative. As a businessman, you should also know that having a negative attitude towards a fellow company/competitor is a huge no-no in the world of public relations.

I can tell you that our target market will be very similar to what Wayne Due had...that does not mean we will come out with the same product (in fact, he used OUR products to make his own)...it just means that we will do what we think is best to serve that particular market.

I can also tell you that Lateral Dynamics probably wont shoot for the same market that we will. Sure, our targets will overlap somewhat, but Mark's customer may not be the same as ours. We applaud this type of competition because it gives a customer a chance to decide what product will fit his needs...and an informed customer is a happy customer. That being said, from what Katz has told me about Mark, I am sure he is going to produce a killer product and I'm excited to see it.

J68Bird

09-21-2006, 07:02 AM

snip.......So anyway, at the moment, I'm trying to locate a Pontiac motor that I can measure.

Matt,
My plan/budget doesn't include a new subframe, but I do have a pontiac motor on the stand. I'm pretty good with measuring/dimensioning. If you want I can whip up a ProE model for you.

J. Clear
68 Firebird Conv.
455/4spd (under construction)

FJB2069

09-21-2006, 07:50 AM

I just received one of the last C5 units from WD about 2 weeks ago, complete spindles to shocks. The workmanship appears excellent, but I may mind waiting for the DSE unit if anyone is interested in this one. PM me.

96Z28SS

09-21-2006, 08:40 AM

I heard that the Wayne Due's frames would be built by AME but would be sold as Wayne Due Clips. That way Wayne would get around the zoning and not have to build them.

FJB2069

09-21-2006, 08:48 AM

I heard that the Wayne Due's frames would be built by AME but would be sold as Wayne Due Clips. That way Wayne would get around the zoning and not have to build them.

Waynes issues are not only zoning and I am not sure who or what will happen with Wayne Due subframe except to say based on what he told me he will not be involved.

silver69camaro

09-21-2006, 08:49 AM

I heard that the Wayne Due's frames would be built by AME but would be sold as Wayne Due Clips. That way Wayne would get around the zoning and not have to build them.

Holy cow, who told you that?? Seriously, how did that get started?
:lurk:

rockdogz

09-21-2006, 09:10 AM

TitoJones

09-21-2006, 09:30 AM

Matt-

I don't think Steve-o's post was negative in the least. I think he is trying to say, there are already 7 different front clips out on the market for the 1st gen, and adding more isn't going to make any one company into a billionare.

If there were 8 different front spindles available for the F body at the time we engineered the AFX spindle, we would have gone another route.

Tyler

parsonsj

09-21-2006, 09:36 AM

I thought the recent Pigeon Forge event to some extent proved that the driver and the tire is more important than the subTrue. For a single lap (60 second) race. That doesn't mean that geometry, weight, and CG mean nothing. It just means that the driver and tire are the most important elements. The message from Pigeon Forge is that you can have a hell of a lot of fun without spending $15K on high end sub-frames, brakes, wheels, and the like. If somebody thinks they need all that to have fun, they are wrong.

On the other hand, the fastest car was a C5; not a Pinto. Put that driver and his tires on a Pinto, and I guarantee you it won't be as fast as the C5. If the race was extended to be several or many laps, then the equipment will come into play more. Drivers and tires can't overcome brake fade, overheating engines, and fatigue from poor seats or fighting a darty or over/under steering car that would come into play in a longer race.

Of course, one should ask themselves just how many times one expects to run the car in a 50 lap race. :)

jp

silver69camaro

09-21-2006, 09:51 AM

Tyler,
Maybe it was just me, I just got a bad vibe from it. No hard feelings to anybody (especially Steve).

I understand there are a number of clips out there already, and quite frankly, that's why we haven't made one until now. Like you said, why get into a market when there are 5 or 6 others available? But in reality, we are getting many, many, many calls a day asking "Do you make a subframe for first gens?".

Another holdback was our C5 suspension. Previously, we used the stock steering arm on the knuckle. This puts the rack in a terrible position if you want to keep the engine in the stock location...but the geometry is damn near perfect! Well, to save builders the time and expense of extensive engine setback, I developed a new bolt-on steering arm that kept the rack low and out of the way w/o hurting geometry. Well, with the rack out of the way now, we can start putting motors in the stock location.

rob07002

09-21-2006, 09:52 AM

I found this old thread that echoes a lot of what might be being said here:

https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16490&highlight=wayne+due

First I'll say I can't wait to see/learn more about AME's, and Lateral Dynamics' new subs.

Steve I hear you about entering what appears to be saturated market but I feel there is gap being ignored.

I'm not sure if I'm in the minority or what but I have a need in the near future (less then a year) for an aftermarket sub and because coilovers, R & P steering, clean look, strength, Wider Wheels, Possible weight savings, convienence, and price are the priority for me I don't see one offered right now.

Sure the 21st Century and DSE clips are killer, PROBABLY the 2 best on the market as far as performance gains right now, but the pricing hurts and is overkill for my goals.

On the other end of the spectrum we have Fatman, Martz, CA, and some other lesser know subs which have been designated more for drag apps, and in the case of Fatman barely a stock replacement

The sub that fits somewhere in between those two for around $4000 turn key minus brakes, can use current tubular first gen arms, and spindles, and can take advantage of numerous brake choices will be a winner IMHO.

This sub doesn't need to have the best camber curve or accept the largest wheel, or be the litest, just be packaged nicely and turn key for a good price.

Steve Chryssos

09-21-2006, 11:05 AM

Steve,
Your attitude comes off negative. As a businessman, you should also know that having a negative attitude towards a fellow company/competitor is a huge no-no in the world of public relations.

Yup. I know that. And Craig knows that I know that. My post was never intended to be negative. Sorry you took it that way. I'm not sure which part offended you.

I can tell you that our target market will be very similar to what Wayne Due had...that does not mean we will come out with the same product (in fact, he used OUR products to make his own)...it just means that we will do what we think is best to serve that particular market.
Which is exactly what I meant when I stated that the AME part will be a natural extension of the WD stuff..

I can also tell you that Lateral Dynamics probably wont shoot for the same market that we will. Sure, our targets will overlap somewhat, but Mark's customer may not be the same as ours. We applaud this type of competition because it gives a customer a chance to decide what product will fit his needs...and an informed customer is a happy customer. That being said, from what Katz has told me about Mark, I am sure he is going to produce a killer product and I'm excited to see it.

Which is exactly what I said. Looks like we agree on all points. So what part of my post offended you? Please clarify. The part about the pie being cut up? You gotta agree that the market is saturated. Regardless, that shouldn't affect you guys at all--and I never said it would. Please clarify.

Mean 69

09-21-2006, 11:25 AM

You gotta agree that the market is saturated.

I really don't want to get in the middle of this, but I'd have to side with Matt, against this statement. I have several customers of our rear system that WILL NOT use anything other than what we will come up with, and it's only largely a paper design at this point. This, and the fact that many of the components we are designing to accomodate the front suspension are the main (only?) reasons we are even going to do a first gen F Body unit.

The market has many different units to choose from, that I agree with, but not all of them seem to be fitting the market's "wants," agree? If they did, then these fun little threads wouldn't happen every two months, now would they?

Peace,
Mark

Steve Chryssos

09-21-2006, 11:27 AM

I thought the recent Pigeon Forge event to some extent proved that the driver and the tire is more important than the sub... so basically (as long as it is structually sound and fits the components you want, e.g. R&P, rim and spindle) you're just picking based on looks
:dunno:

Based on lap times, a stock clip car can hang with an aftermarket clip car. At the same time, there is definitely more to it than just looks. Unfortunately, the distinction is difficult to quantify. The difference is more qualitative. I think the biggest difference in driving experience will come from the steering systems. Unfortunately, there is no effective way to put a rack on a stock clip. So you must swap clips to make that--among other things--happen. Other things? Wheel and tire width as well as wheel offset variations come to mind.
RTH2 was a party. Eventually we will perform a more comprehensive test. We will all gather 'round and agree on a set of parameters. RTH will always be a party, so don't expect testing in hermetically sealed chambers or baseline to parts swap comparisons. We're there to drive not test. But we will continue to get a bunch of cars together and run them on the same day with the same clock and the same driver. Additional testing will need to include logged driver feedback on which suspension combination was easiest to drive despite similar lap times. That is the sort of thing that you can't put in an advertisement. (i.e. 27% easier to drive! Buy now!). It is possible to achieve similar lap times from stock and aftermarket clips and still yield a very different driving experience.

We have a lot of video to sort thru. I hope that the footage will help to further the discussion.

67bird

09-21-2006, 11:46 AM

rob07002,
I think if he would have been in business longer Wayne was working on a middle of the road frame. There were pictures posted I think on here and on other forums of a frame that used stock replacement components (ie. DSE arms and AFX spindles). It had the modified DSE geometry built in. It also had a rack, due to Wayne narrowing the rails to allow a big tire in the front. I think the only complaint that was made was that the rear lower control arm mounting point was a single shear mounting point. I think that this could have been revised in the long run, but we will never know. I have only seen one car with one of these frames. It was basically a new, nice looking replacement for someone with all the DSE stuff so that they didn't have to use a stock frame.

silver69camaro

09-21-2006, 12:04 PM

Steve,
I wouldn't say I was offended, I just got a negative vibe from your initial post. I may have jumped to conclusions, but I got the impression that you believed our design would be a "rip-off", more or less, than Wayne Due's product. I also got the impression that since, in your opinion, the market is already saturated, therefor the effort put into our subframe was a waste of time and would not survive in the market. I understand now you didn't mean it this way. All is good :twothumbs

Steve Chryssos

09-21-2006, 12:36 PM

Yeah. Not my intention at all. I was well aware that AME bent the rails for Wayne Due. And I'm glad that there are companies such as AME who will offset the flood of clips.

TLWiltman

09-21-2006, 12:53 PM

I thought the recent Pigeon Forge event to some extent proved that the driver and the tire is more important than the sub... so basically (as long as it is structually sound and fits the components you want, e.g. R&P, rim and spindle) you're just picking based on looks
:dunno:I suppose that is correct, to a degree. A good driver can hustle some pretty terrible equipment around a race course. They'll be faster and safer with better equipment. A "middle-of-the-road driver will probably benefit the most (be highly influenced by their equipment) due to having the skill to run a good line, but not the skill to hustle an "off" car. Followed by the absolute novice who just needs a predictable car to learn with. The main benefit, to me at least, of an aftermarket subframe is tire size (some mods to the stocker can often accomodate the geometry). That, and maybe some equipment interchange with the "circle track" world (options: three-piece sway bars that can be swapped in 5 minutes, 5x5 swaps to match a floater rear, etc...) The rest is often just eye candy. As far as tire size goes. Until I can fit a 335 (or a 25.5x12" slick) w/o flares, I'll never be truly satisfied. Then again, that would require too many compromises to make for a marketable subframe. That said, I would never consider the market to be saturated. Not all the "wants" have been accomodated yet.
-really hard-core-nuclear-bomb-surviving-stuff for the guy who A) doesn't care about being able to get replacement components from the parts store and B) doensn't have the fabrication/engineering skills to make their own, but understands suspension theory well enough to make some desicions/ compromises (the wants and the skills don't always go hand in hand).
-Second Gen stuff. That's slowly being remedied, but that market's far from saturated.
-the "price-conscious-consumer" who just wants bigger tires and decent geometry on a budget. Perhaps using existing aftermarket parts.