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View Full Version : how many here do track days in a classic PT car?



c4racer
09-14-2006, 10:36 PM
I've been doing track days for ~10 years, so I have plenty of seat time. Also did several years of SCCA autox competing for points. All of my experience has been in later model cars:
'89 Camaro, '91 Vette, '98 M3, '04 Z06, '06 Evo

Here is my current dilemna. I picked up a very well prepped '69 Camaro with ~380hp LT1 and Wayne Due suspension and BAER brakes. The car needs a few things to dial it in and it also needs a manual tranny (has 4LE60 - bah). Already has a 4-point roll bar and nice Recaro seats too, along with a nice Momo wheel. I need to drop about $5K into the car to set it up how I'd like it. Once I do that it will be set up nicely for the street and will really be a reasonably capable open track day car. The car is quite nice with a fresh paint job and completely redone body work. Not full show quality, but very nice driver.

My problem is finances - things would be much more comfortable for me and give me more flexibility to finish the '69 properly if I sold my '06 Evo. But the Evo is currently both my main daily driver and my track day car. I don't mind switching off between my SUV and the Camaro for my daily driving and I could always pick up a decent beater commute car if felt the need. But I'm thinking if I sell the Evo I will have to rely on the Camaro as my track car as well.

My main concern is going off roading with it and doing some damage, but I guess that risk is there with the Evo too, but I hate to risk the Camaro somehow. My second concern is reliability - the motor is a lightly modded LT1 with under 15K miles, so no issue there - more worried I will find some other weak link and get stranded at the track. I tend to do ~3-4 track days a year, so not major and doesn't really justify owning a truck to tow to the track although I do have a car trailer.

So I guess my question is, how many of you guys take your nice and shiny PT classics and beat on them on the road course? And how many actually drive your car to the track as opposed to trailering?

Wondering if I could learn and be convinced one way or the other from the collective experience here.

pic of my car for reference:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

BonzoHansen
09-15-2006, 05:38 AM
Poke thorugh, you'll find a bunch of guys do. It sounds like it is built to be driven, so why not?

alcino
09-15-2006, 09:02 AM
I drive my car to the track and beat and bring it home. I even drove it home 110miles with 3 spun bearings(needless to say I bought a oil pressure gauge and baffled the oil pan after that).

Your car sounds solid. I would not worry about tracking it. Just bring tools a few parts and watch you gauges. I usually bring jack, stands, oil, belts, tools to take off most parts, tuct tape, and hose clamps. It sucks to drag all the stuff around and not use. But its nice to have when you need it and you can make quick friends when people are in need.

Worst case you have it towed. I rather chance a tow if catastrophic failure, than hassle with buying/storing or renting a trailer plus having/getting a vehicle that can tow it all.

c4racer
09-15-2006, 12:50 PM
Ya - that is kinda where I'm at, although coming from a place where I had a fully prepped race car and tow set-up that still makes me nervous!! But ya - I carry that type of stuff to the track even with a new car, and normally go with a few buddies who also have stuff. I think we will soon get to the point where one car goes on a trailer so there is at least an easy option back home if needed, since all the cars are street driveable and legal anyways. Problem is we drive 180miles to Thunderhill which is a haul if something goes wrong. I've been on the wrong end of that but was able to ride home on someone's trailer and drive their "track" car home.

The SUV I have now is a small car-based one that I use for family trips, ski trips, business use, but it cannot tow much ~3500lbs, so useless as a tow vehicle. And I really don't want the hassle and expense of keeping a tow capable vehicle around either, it just is not needed for any other reason right now. And seems like a complete waste for 3-4 events / year too..

vanzuuk1
09-15-2006, 01:23 PM
Dave pozzis crew walk the walk, alcino included, but there are a lot of showtouring cars out there.

formula
09-15-2006, 02:08 PM
As soon as a track day happens to pop up at a time I can get to it, I'll be out there wringing the bird out...I just haven't had the chance yet. I daily drive my car, too. I'd say do it.

Tony@AirRideTech
09-15-2006, 02:56 PM
Thats why they make replacement parts and body shops........ run it man! have fun!

ilovefirstgens
09-15-2006, 05:52 PM
The better question would be,

"Those of you with WORKING cars, how many of you do trackdays"

Bandit
09-15-2006, 06:36 PM
I will once I can get everything working properly--I am not afraid of the track but the officials don't like it too much when you leak fluids and have no safety equipment--LOL :dunno:

Paul

David Pozzi
09-15-2006, 06:41 PM
That's a great looking Camaro!

We do open track events with my wife's 73 Camaro and I will run my 67 Camaro when it's done.

I've seen overheated power steering and brakes, engine oil temps get up there too, so cooling is important along with general good car prep. A first gen Camaro needs a 4 row copper core raidator or an aluminum radiator.

I've got lots of suspension tips on my web page.

David

mpozzi
09-15-2006, 07:12 PM
Dave and I built our '73 to use and have fun thrashing it at both autocross and open track events. While it's not my daily driver (gas mileage sucks!!), the car gets out a few times a month to terrorize the neighborhood.

Your EVO vs Camaro is the proverbial "apples and oranges" as both cars are fun in their own individual ways. The EVO hauls butt and handles well where the Camaro will do pretty much the same thing only with a bit more noise and ferocity. For a larger, heavier car, the Camaros handle extremely well and are also well balanced. While I haven't driven an EVO, I can speak well for the Camaro as being a very fun track car.

Your new '69 is pretty cool and if you're worried about rock chips (yes, they'll be there after you finish a track event), use painters tape on the areas you want to protect. I gave up keeping the paint nice and just do the best I can to make our car presentable from 50 ft. away or at 50 mph.

Where are you located as you mention Thunderhill and being about 180 miles from that track?? We're about the same distance away. There's a Speed Ventures event at Buttonwillow the end of this month and October 1st (we might go to the October 1st day) and Green Flag at the same track the Thanksgiving weekend. Think about getting the car together and run with us.

While we trailer the '73, others that open track drive 'em to and from the events. Not sure how much track days you've done but if you don't go crazy, you'll leave with an intact car. I say take it's virginity and track the Camaro.

Mary Pozzi

c4racer
09-15-2006, 10:41 PM
I've done many dozens of track days - been doing them for 10 years. I live in San Jose, BTW and my favorite track is also the closest to my house - Laguna!! I am doing Oct. 19th with a private group up at THill, but in the Evo not the Camaro. The car is 90% there but needs a few very important things before it can see track duty:

- First and foremost need to junk the 4LE60 slushbox and install a TKO
- Also the tires are completely shot
- And the rear suspension is also shot - worn shocks, original mono-leafs
- Front suspension is good to go - the car has a Wayne Due subframe
- Of course I need to dial in the alignment to make sure there is enough negative camber.
- Better pads - easy enough
- Power steering? What's that? HA - car is currently manual rack, but I plan to convert to power steering. I have a cooler from a C4 sitting idle, maybe I can adapt that, or just run redline and see how it goes.
- stock 4th gen AL radiator seems to be adequate so far in traffic up to mid 90's anyway
- car needs an oil cooler, I have everything to plumb one up in stock in my shop, I just need the cooler itself and a place to put it - probably something I will just monitor for starters and see how it does and see if I plan to continue to run the car.

I have extensive track experience in a 3rd gen Camaro and this 69 set-up the way it is really reminds me of that car, so I have a pretty good sense of what it would be like on the track. The Evo is a much more precise and agile tool with near perfect controls - brake pedal feel is perfect, pedal placement is spot on for easy heal and toe, shifter is smooth and accurate, and there is more grip than you ever think possible so the adhesion circle is really amazing. It's a real rocket ship. There is no way I'd be turning equivalent lap times in a Camaro unless it had about 50% more power, then maybe closer. The cars actually have similar weights - my Camaro is 3300 with a full tank of gas, which is actually about 50lbs lighter than an Evo. But the Evo is much more nimble, has a shorter wheelbase and is narrower as well. The cars are not similar at all and the Evo is cleary a superior track machine. But, I am just out there having fun - not racing or going out to set lap records and I am sure the Camaro would be as fun if not more fun to drive. More fun because you don't see many classic cars out there going fast on a road race course, and you have the sense of accomplishment that something you built (or in my case perfected for track use at least) can run hard on track and then carry you home afterwards. In theory anyway!! HA..

There is something very special about running a classic car with a rip snorting V8 on the road course that I can certainly get into the idea... Maybe even enough to risk the paint. It's not a perfect paint job anyway - cost a bunch, but really not up to my standards beyond a driver anyway.

I can feel myself starting to lose grip on that slippery slope :Alchy:

Scott

jvike
09-19-2006, 06:20 AM
I have roadraced my 1970 Plymouth Cuda. And it isn't a proper PT car yet! Look at this thread: https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22028 The car was out of the paintshop little over a month before. It sure is nice to have a mint body and fresh paint, but I don't see the use in it if I can't drive it like they where ment to. :drive1:
Edit; here is a link to my brothers 69 Mustang.. he had a little mishap, but it was an easy fix. https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10153

c4racer
09-19-2006, 10:48 AM
Very cool!! Love the track. Neat Cuda and Mustang, while I am not a Mopar or Ford guy those just have to be the coolest of their breed and I really love the look - especially the wheels on that Mustang. My buddy has a '70 Mach1 and I've always loved that car too - the fastback lines are some of the best from the muscle car era for sure.

Looks like fun out there - rain would probably keep me off the track in my Camaro, but I have run rain days without any drama. thanks for the info. Oh, and the pic of the 74 Capri 3.0L reminds me of my buddy who had the same car, maybe it was a '73 but same motor. What a great car that thing was. I drove a '63 Impala at the time, quite different.

KAA
09-19-2006, 11:58 AM
I did my first track day in my El Camino last September. I've been back twice this year and will most likely attend one more event in October. Except for one time when I rented a trailer, I've driven it to the track which is 135 miles from my home. The car performs pretty darn well considering I don't have a lot of experience and I don't push it too hard. I do NOT want to go off track with this car. Still, it pulls 1+ cornering g's, hits 144 mph on the straight, and keeps up with the new Vettes. I'm always getting compliments on the car and how well it performs and sounds. It all makes for a great overall experience. However, I realize the limitations. Let's face it, it's too heavy, has poor aerodynamics, and the chassis was never designed for this kind of thing. It's also loud, rough, and a handfull to drive. I'm really getting into road racing and I'm seriously thinking about something that handles better, is lighter, has better aerodynamics, and more creature comforts. I have two Eagle Talons which, like your EVO, are turbo AWD. They make excellent track cars and would be something that I would't worry about damaging nearly as much as I do with my El Camino.

I guess if I was you, I'd see how you like running the Camaro before you ditch your EVO. You may regret it.

c4racer
09-19-2006, 01:25 PM
True, but I've been throwing around another idea too. Picking up a E36 M3 which are getting dreadfully cheap now. I used to have one and did a few track days in that car. Very similar track experience to the Evo, just slightly slower but very close. That would free up enough cash to finish the Camaro how I want it and for some house related expenses (we just finished having a $16K roof installed for example - ouch!!). That way I would have 2 track capable cars and free up the cash that I need right now.

Another much crazier idea I've been toying with is building a 65-72 Chevelle as a cruiser with the LT1 / 4LE60 out of my Camaro and then dropping in a fresh 450hp miniRam 355 that was destined for a road race project that I scrapped.... The possibilities are endless... My biggest concern with that route is I will probably not end up freeing up much if any cash for the house, although I could at least free up the cash to finish the Camaro towards road race prep. But do I really need 2 PT classic Chevies? haha.. Maybe I asked the wrong group that question.....

:slap:

David Pozzi
09-19-2006, 08:33 PM
Scott,
Install A PS cooler, I used a small auto trans cooler from Summit and it works super. With no cooler, I've recorded PS temps coming off the track at 375deg, so on track temps would be even higher. The PS box has teflon seals on the piston that will melt. It's beyond what better oil can handle for very long.

Plan "B":
Buy my wife's 330I. (her suggestion).

ProBell
09-19-2006, 08:56 PM
I track my car. I am going to Lime Rock Park this Fri, and Sat. I have a trailer so I normally tow to the road course and drive to the drag strip.
I have had one good slide across the rumple strips and grass. No harm done just some extra weight in dirt. I say put insurance on it and go run it. Randy

c4racer
09-19-2006, 09:54 PM
It's insured, although Haggarty specifically denies coverage for damage at any racing facility so that is another thing I didn't think of...

David. No box on my car. Using a rack from a Fox Mustang. WD frame. While now I have a manual rack I plan to install the quick ratio AGR unit and a TurnOne PS pump and will run a remote reservoir. I think I have a stock C4 cooler sitting on a shelf that would work. I think the manual would be way more hassle getting through T11-13 at THill or the the corksrew and T11 at LSIR. So definately going to switch to PS. Manual brakes I can deal with, but no reason for manual steering in a road race capable street car that I can think of!!
The builder was not a road racer.

c4racer
09-19-2006, 10:02 PM
Wow - quite an interesting car you got there Pro-Bell!!

Did you do the fab work and NASCAR style suspension? I would love to adapt something like that for the rear of my car.

What are you running for steering gear and PS pump?

BTW - how does the 245f / 255r tire combo work on track? Seems you would be under-tired in the back to handle all that power and tq out of the corners. How does she hook?

And one more question - do you stock inner fenders in the front? How do you address the rubbing with that ride ht? Mine rubs with 235's. Just curious if you solved it with stock inners and a BFH or did something more custom.

Damn True
09-19-2006, 10:03 PM
I was under the impression that Haggarty was cool with "driving instruction" (HPDE sorta stuff with regimented instruction) type events, but was opposed to any sort of competition (I.E. time trial, time attack etc). Perhaps I am thinking of a different company.

c4racer
09-19-2006, 10:11 PM
well, I guess that would be open to interpretation. here is the wording on the policy:

Racing
there is no coverage under this policy while auto is being prepared for or being used in a race speed contest, including but not limited to practicing or testing for such an event.

I take that to mean they do not cover you on a track period. Of course unless something really big happens you can always claim it happened on the road somewhere I guess...:ssst:

Damn True
09-19-2006, 10:34 PM
Well it might serve you well to call them spoofing as a non-customer and ask them in VERY specific terms if "instruction events" are viewed as "racing" or practice for the same.

Im sure there are those who would like to have an answer to just such a question.

ProBell
09-20-2006, 02:55 AM
I called my insurance comp. They told me I am covered at any driving school. I would not be covered if it was a timed event.The club events I run are called driving schools and provide you with a instructor depending on your skill level.
Northern Fabrication designed and built the suspension. I did all the assemble.
I have a stock 99 Camaro pump and a DS 600 box." will check my temps coming off track this weekend"
The tire combo works OK,I am still learning so at this point the car is better than me. I plan to go to track tires for next year.
The front tires did rub. I cut the lip off and rolled a pieces of 1/4 inch bar on the edge for support and to make a smooth edge.I then cut the inner well out from the center out and made a crush panel like a race car. I then seam sealed the crush panel to the fender to give it support. If you want I will do my best to post some pictures Early next week.

c4racer
09-20-2006, 12:58 PM
I would love to see pics of what you did on those inner fenders!!

Thanks.

I had lunch with my buddy who built my car today. He had another idea that just might work. Cut the subframe connectors and move the front frame forward about 1/4" and re-weld them up to move the front clip forward relative to the body just enough to get that clearance. that just might work... But maybe your solution is easier. I checked and they do rub on the fender a bit too, not only on the inner. .25" more offset might do the trick as well, or 40 series tires instead of 45. Many ways to skin a cat as they say...

Charley Lillard
09-20-2006, 07:12 PM
For about 50.00 a year you can join AAA and get free towing up to about 50 miles. If you break it at Thunderhill you can have it towed to my house. I'm about 60 miles. How big is your private group on Oct 19th and what do they charge for a day rental ?

c4racer
09-20-2006, 08:26 PM
Charlie - good point - I can do the 100 mile towing option and get it somewhere. I do have AAA btw, just need to upgrade to the longer tow service. Sure is cheaper than buying and maintaining a truck!! :doh:

The group I am running with is a very good group - they keep it on the small side, and basically 2 run groups - beginner / intermediate and advanced 30min sessions back to back all day. Also - opened up for everyone in the later afternoon. more track time than most folks can handle. normally cost is $250 for THill days I think. sold out for this time, but I can let you know about the next event - typically do ~3 per year.

If the question was more what does THill charge for a day rental, not sure about that one. I'm thinking in the neighborhood of $15-20K. Snot cheap.

Charley Lillard
09-20-2006, 08:46 PM
How many cars at the event ? All late model stuff ?

c4racer
09-21-2006, 08:21 AM
roughly 50 cars. Mostly late models - Porsche, Vette, BMW, Audi, Camaro, Mustang, Viper, sometimes exotics. The occasional classic but very rare. But generally relatively high dollar street cars that nobody wants to damage, so courtesy is stressed over everything.

tracar91
09-25-2006, 06:54 AM
I picked my car up from the painter on Tuesday last year, trailered to Memphis from Louisvlle (5 1/2 hrs) Wed, then was out on the track Thursday at 140 mph where I got my first rock chips (I was hounding someone too close down the straight...heheh). I did make one off track (6 360's throught the grass) but didn't hurt anything. I've done 4 track events since the paint was finished, and while I won't win any car shows, It looks pretty good from 20 ft. (I do need to repaint the lower front ground effect, but that was a shopping cart at Walmart, :sick: ).

I trailer because I have the option, but with AAA I wouldn't see the need.

Also, I have a buddy who drove his from NY to Memphis, threw off the harmonic balancer, cracked the block and tranny casing, hit the wall with all for corners of his car, then rented a penske truck and 2 wheel dolly to get it back home. Drove the car back the next year. Refuses to trailer. (He's an Ironman!)

Dan Sherwood
09-27-2006, 08:15 PM
In response to the question-With my 67 and 69 camaro, I am one of 3 out of 150 cars that I've ever seen with my road course group doing battle at the track using old iron.

I will proudly say that from one of the slowest 5 years ago with a mild mannered big block, overweight, 4 drums, auto, and stock cooling system camaro, I was the fastest one in my group at a 2.5 mile road course event a few weeks ago.

The car will hang quite well with the fancy porsche, vette and ferrari owners in the corners, and then rips them a new one down the straights.

Later in the evening I can throw on some slicks, readjust the coil overs, turn on a relatively small shot of n20 (150 shot) and run low 10's/high 9's at the dragstrip.

At the last outing on the roadcourse, a few guys in my group noticed the nitrous and wanted to know how big a shot I was using to blow their doors off down the straights? Well none yet, I told them, but I guess I could turn it on and we could see. Not to many thought that was funny. Especially the guy in the $250,000 porsche. Oops.

I do have one guy in a factory (but spiced up) gtr viper that can get me down the straights when I top out at 140 (3.73 gears). I guess the swap from the 69 for the gear vendors is now emminent.

ProBell
09-28-2006, 05:53 PM
c4racer.
Here are some pictures of the front inner fender wells c4racer requested. You can see the crush panel and lip I made. The rest of the cuts were done to let me service the computer and other parts I hid up under the fender. Also cut out a bunch to make room for my front suspension, But will work just the same.

Damn True
09-28-2006, 05:56 PM
Very cool, I have been considering doing something very similar. Any pics of those inners before they were installed?

ProBell
09-28-2006, 06:09 PM
Sorry I do not have any.

c4racer
10-04-2006, 10:24 AM
interesting - thanks for posting the pics.

BTW - I decided the 69 would not be my track car after-all, although I still will occasionally bring it out to play. I picked up a complete and sorted '82 Camaro prepped for the NASA CMC class, so I will be tearing up the tracks in that with the goal to do some true wheel to wheel racing. I pick it up in a few weeks and will run it at THill on the 19th. Not much power, but the price was so attractive other options just didn't make sense to me any more!! Plus I've wanted to try my hand at racing, the competitive side of me coming out I suppose. I used to run SCCA autox in a 3rd gen and really miss the competitive side, but road racing is enough under my skin that I can't see going back to autox now.

Evo is for sale.

Now I need a truck :-)

Varkwso
10-05-2006, 05:00 PM
One of the students had a killer 66 GT350 (a PT clone actually) at Roebling last weekend with NASA- SE.:headbang:

Other than some better track rubber and a little sway bar tuning the car ran out very well:worship:

BB69
10-09-2006, 09:16 AM
Thought I would reply here as I have been setting up track days for the last year. I have taken the Camaro out twice this year, and the Vette went out for the first time last weekend. I trailer my cars to the track because I can, and because it relieves a lot of stress. Also, I try to bring all the tools I would need for most repairs, and that alone would take more room than I have in the car. Throw in the refreshments I bring as the organizer, and a trailer is a must. Below are some videos from previous events.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2006/10/th_LastlapatGrattan-1.jpg (http://s44.photobucket.com/albums/f25/grulich69/?action=view&current=LastlapatGrattan.flv)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2006/10/th_Throughtheesses-1.jpg (http://s44.photobucket.com/albums/f25/grulich69/?action=view&current=Throughtheesses.flv)

mpozzi
10-10-2006, 04:14 PM
Hey C4,

When and in what class did you run your third gen Camaro in Solo II? Dave and I ran one back in the late '80's-early '90's in F Stock.

Mary Pozzi

c4racer
11-06-2006, 01:21 PM
Camaro - Mustang - Challenge with NASA. This is a spec series pitting similarly prepped '82-'97 Camaro's with '79-'93 Mustangs - running stock motors, stock style suspensions and a spec Toyo tire. Close racing and big fields - typically 20-30 cars on a race weekend. Good driver development series that can be run on a very low budget.

They will be running the final race of the season at BW this weekend 11-11/12 if anyone wants to come watch. I will be there running group 4 HPDE on Sunday. Car is #82.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Orngcrush69
11-21-2006, 11:07 PM
C4, Just wanted to remind you that GreenFlag is running at Buttonwillow this weekend if you can make it.

c4racer
11-25-2006, 10:44 PM
Done for the winter. I plan to mostly run with NASA from now on in group 4 during CMC race weekends until I get my comp license and then will be running mostly CMC races.