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View Full Version : Help phasing rotor with BS3 and MSD-2345



davepl
08-02-2006, 09:44 AM
Between Precision Turbo not answering period and John's yes/no answers, I'm still a little hazy on the steps to check rotor phasing.

The part I don't fully get is when you drill a big hole in your distributor cap and shine the timing light in to make sure the rotor tab aligns with the cap post.

I -thought- that if the phasing wasn't right, you should just be able to rotate the distributor housing, since that rotates the cap. But why does that not change anything? Is it because the magnetic pickup for the reluctor tabs rotates too, so you're not changing anything?

Basically, my three questions are:

1) What are you looking for when you're peering in there? Just to make sure its on the right pole? Or that its not too far out of alignment?

2) How far out of alignment is too far?

3) What to do if its too far out of alignment? Is geting a phasable rotor (with the elongated screw holes) the only option?

Thanks in advance for any help... this is really frustrating, because the BS3 manual has about 12 pages on how to install a Windows setup program and -nothing- on, oh, setting up an inductive pickup ignition.

Sparky
08-02-2006, 09:09 PM
Hopefully this link will help answer some of your questions and/or help you correct the Rotor phase.

http://home.comcast.net/~sparky007/Big_Stuff_3_IPU_Setup.pdf

It’s really important to have Rotor phase properly set up. The primary reason for this is so you don’t end up with misfire conditions. When the Rotor is out of phase, Spark has the tendency to jump forward to the next pole on the Cap causing a misfire. Spark usually won’t jump backwards.
As for setting up rotor phase, it needs to be set up at the most retarded value of timing you will be running at. For example: if you’re running a boosted application and at full boost the timing is at 20 degrees. You need to phase the Rotor at 20 degrees.

You will need to drill a hole in the Cap between the Rotor pole and the Cyl pole (usually between the Rotor pole and Cyl # 1), closer to the Cyl pole then the Rotor pole. Attach the inductive pick up of the timing light to Cyl # 1. With the hole drilled in the top of the Cap, you will want to shine the timing light through the hole while the engine is running at 20 degrees of timing. You’ll want to make sure that the rotor is directly lined up with the Cap pole Cyl # 1. If the alignment is off you may have to use a Rotor that has elongated holes. Most of the time the elongated holes in the Rotor will get the Rotor Phase aligned.

All of this is explained in more detail in the link above. The link also covers setting up the type of distributor you are using.

I hope this helps,
Sparky

davepl
08-02-2006, 09:27 PM
Yes, I've read the link before hand, but it really only says to "check it", and not hor far off before it needs attention.

Can someone explain why rotating the cap doesn't change the phasing? After all, it does rotate the cap when you rotate the housing, and not the reluctors, which are driven off the shaft from the cam.

Blown353
08-03-2006, 07:28 AM
Just to clarify a bit: You want to run as much lead as your ECU will allow (i.e. with a FAST it's 62 degrees) as the box will typically only let you run a maximum timing of your lead degress minus so many degrees for computational time (again, using FAST as an example 10 degrees.) Thus if you're running 60 degrees of lead on the distributor then the box will let you run a maximum of 50 degrees of timing. Being that the majority of engines run best during light throttle cruise with timing in the high 40s / low 50s it pays to run as much lead as possible on the trigger.

Also, I like to phase the rotor such that the rotor is pointing directly at the terminal on the cap at the amount of timing that your engine likes at peak torque-- because at peak torque cylinder pressures are highest and thus so is load on the ignition system and chances of a crossfire/misfire are highest, so having the rotor pointed directly at the terminal on the cap during those conditions minimizes the chances of crossfiring to another terminal during periods of high load.

Thus if your engine likes 30 degrees of timing at peak torque you should phase the rotor so that at 30 degrees BTDC on the crank the rotor is pointing directly at the terminal on the cap, while the reluctor wheel is giving the pickup the signal to the ECU @ 60 degrees BTDC (or however much lead the ECU will allow you to run.) This is why you need to phase the rotor/reluctor, because "out of the box" the reluctor and rotor are aligned with no lead; the reluctor and rotor terminal are aligned because in a carb'd application the distributor always fires when the reluctor passes the pickup. For an EFI application you need the reluctor and trigger signal to lead the rotor so the ECU receives the signal prior to the actual spark event because the ECU delays the spark signal X number of milliseconds to achieve the correct timing number. Thus the rotor needs to be set to "lag behind" the reluctor and pickup by a little bit.

It will take a little bit of playing to get it right. Took 3 tries to get mine where I wanted it (60 degrees of trigger lead and having the rotor pointing directly at the terminal at 25 degrees BTDC.) Would be a lot easier with a distributor with an adjustable rotor, I had to keep pulling mine out and moving the reluctor until I got it where I wanted it.

davepl
08-03-2006, 08:25 AM
How do you move the reluctor? I have ordered one from BS3 that has 10 degrees of reluctor advance built in, but I don't see any other way to adjust it "bit by bit".

When you say you kept pulling yours our and moving the reluctor, how'd you move it?

Blown353
08-03-2006, 11:04 AM
How do you move the reluctor? I have ordered one from BS3 that has 10 degrees of reluctor advance built in, but I don't see any other way to adjust it "bit by bit".

When you say you kept pulling yours our and moving the reluctor, how'd you move it?

The reluctor on my MSD distributor was held to the shaft via 2 set screws. I'd move the reluctor a bit then screw it back down. When I got it where I finally wanted it I put a scribe line on it then removed the set screws one at a time to dimple-drill the shaft for the set screws to lock into. A little bit of red loctite and things are doing just fine.

The BS3 multi-position reluctor + an adjustable cap/rotor would make things very easy.

merlinpro69
09-08-2006, 07:15 PM
I have the 2345 MSD and I ended up using their "capt-adapt" so I could phase my rotor and it worked perfect! On this dist it should come standard...I had asked MSD if the cap-adapt would work and they had no clue...I thought that was weird, but after some other ???s I had about setting up my 2345, I lost all faith in their tech dept...I'm sure they are great guys, as I have dealt with them many a time and was happy with their advise, but on this dist...(2345), they had no idea what was up...I knew more than they did...I should have known when I got the 2345, the instructions, were for the 8570 model...they said that those should be close enough!!! Sorry, but not in the same park! Anyway, if you get this, do the MSD capt-adapt, you will be happy you did! :jump:

davepl
09-08-2006, 07:22 PM
I've actually already ordered the cap-a-dapt system with the adjustable rotor, and its sitting on my bench now!

When you were doing your phasing, would you be so kind as to run down the procedure? Specifically, I'm wondering what RPM you did it at. If I decide that my peak torque will be at 4000rpm and that's where I want to optimize the rotor phase, and at that RPM I plan to run, say, 32 degrees, do I have to run the engine up to 4000rpm?

I was wondering if I could just plunk 32 degrees into the idle cells of the timing table and do this whole thing at idle.

The prospect of leaning over an un-tuned brand-new motor while running it at 4000rpm and trying to peek into the cap with a timing light seems a little scary to me :-)

Thanks!
- Dave

Sparky
09-21-2006, 10:11 AM
If you follow the procedure that the above PDF file illustrates you should have no problem setting Crank Angle Reference, Cam Synchronization and Rotor Phase.
The document supports these procedures very well and I reference it all the time.

The information provided below is on page 6 in the link I posted above.

To check rotor phasing dynamically, the distributor cap will need to be modified so that the position of the rotor tip to the cap terminal can be observed when the engine is running.
To do this, a large hole must be made in the distributor cap, near a terminal that can be easily observed. To help see the rotor tip, mark the top of it with white correction fluid. Install the modified distributor cap. Connect the timing light inductive lead on the plug wire going to the terminal with the hole near it. Start the engine and run it at a 3,000 RPM. Make sure the “Dash” timing value reads the desired timing for maximum power. You may have to set the values in the timing map to correspond to this. Shine the timing light into the hole in the cap. The light from the timing light should show the rotor tip in-phase with the cap terminal at the timing for peak power. Most timing lights have somewhere around a degree of propagation delay so keep that in mind when looking at the tip.

sc68z28
09-26-2006, 08:06 PM
This is good stuff!!
I am also using MSD's #2345 with a FAST, and have not done any phasing work yet (poss time bomb?)
I was thinking that an adjustable rotor would work. The MSD tech did not understand me either, and I got instructions for the #8570 with my #2345 too!

Is this cap-a-dapt a kit? Or do I order the cap #8441 & rotor #8420, or will just the rotor work with my cap?

My distributor is installed at 54 degrees BTDC, with a max cruise and decell timing advance of 44* (could be more). Peak torque is set at 28*

So 54* - 28* =26 half of that is 13. My rotor will need to be phased back 13* or more, if I move the distributor up to 60*??

Thanks for all the great info on this, Dave are you starting to get this?
It really just clicked for me. --Bill.

MonzaRacer
10-27-2006, 12:21 PM
We make this stuff so complicated. I am staying away from distributor based timing problems with my new FlexFI setup Iam proto typing.
We are working on using GM style module/coil packs. the neest thing is I have decided to drop the hammer and offer setups with tdc crank sensor ring to go under your harmonic balancer and a simple hall switck crank sensor.
so far we have been proto typing the sensor ring to press on to a balancer and let the computer handle timing uses. I also am getting the distributor adapter (its a plug kind of like they run in GM 2.8/3.1 and only a hall switch for #1 tdc)
So far everything is going good but machine shop is backed up some as he was working in conjunction with New Orleans machine shop to produce other contractual parts. so far they have me on a month lead time for making proto types but one guy in shop stays over and trys to help work stuff out and I am gonna EFI his car for parts only.
I just can see using a distributor anymore but some systems are going to. We have a bracket that allows the mounting of the module on back of engine but I have one fella who likes not having a dist as he can tuck his engine under a reovable cowl panel and get some good setback for handling.
good luck and I hope you guys can get it worked out.
Lee Abel
AFTERMARKET PERFORMANCE

davepl
05-31-2008, 08:07 PM
It looks like with my Hogan sheet metal intake that there's no way I'm going to get the larger Ford (Cap-a-Dapt) distributor cap in there, which is needed for their adjustable rotor.

Am I hooped, or is it possible to do any rotor phasing with a small cap MSD-2345?

sc68z28
05-31-2008, 08:32 PM
Here is a Quote from an other forum on this subject

"You need to modify your distributor to make the Reluctor phaseable. Since you can not move the rotor in relation to the reluctor, just move the reluctor. To do this, you will need to dissasemble the distributor all the way down to the main shaft. This is a little tricky because of the collar that holds the cam sensor magnet but it can be done. Once you get down to the shaft, remove the snap ring and press the reluctor off the shaft. Discard the roll pin that locates the reluctor, drill and tap two opposing 8-32 holes in the side of the reluctor and install two set screws. Reassemble the reluctor, snap ring, and the rest of the distributor. Make sure to lock out any mechanical advance at this time if it is not allready done. Now your distributor has a phaseable reluctor. You will need to set the phasing first with the crank at whatever your timing is at peak torque (ex. 20 deg). Then, roll the crank back to 50deg and remove the cap and rotor so you can see the reluctor and pickup inside the distributor. With the crank at 50, rotate the reluctor until one of the tabs ligns up with the slot shaped magnet in the blue pickup. Once the reluctor is where you want it, locktite the two set screws down and re-assemble everything. Now, rotate the crank back to 60-90 and remove the collar around the base of the distributor that contains the cam pickup. Note the position of the small magnet in the aluminum collar around the distributor shaft. Mark the base of the distributor to indicate the position of the magnet. Reinstall the split collar with the pickup aligned with your reference mark on the base of the distributor.
Make sure that all this is done on the compression stroke for #1.
If you can not see the small cam sync magnet when you remove the clamp on collar, you may have to rotate your plug wires and start over."

Here is a link to the thread, there is a little more info there.
http://www.efi101.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2923

---Bill.