Still waiting on paint....getting nervous.

[trapin]

Well....it's been 4 weeks since my car was supposed to go to paint and the guy is still working on that '40 Ford that was supposed to be finished around July 5th. I don't know what to think here. It didn't look like there was all that much left to do on it, he kept telling me he was real close. Last Sunday I called him and he told me there was no change. I'm starting to get scared that this guy is avoiding me because he feels he low-balled me on the price and now doesn't want to do my car for that. If that's the case...why not just come out and say it? But I don't know...maybe he really is still working on it and the owner of the '40 Ford is making changes or being a pain in the ass or whatever. My wife told me not to call him again and just to wait for him to call when he's ready. I think I'll do that...but how much longer should I wait? The week leading up to July 5th he felt he would have the Ford done on July 9th, that's how close he indicated he was. What the hell could have happened that has caused the project to drag on another 4 weeks? He only does one car at a time and this is his full time job.

I don't know. I need my Pro-Touring brothers here to advise me from this point. Your thoughts?

[JoshStratton]

I am with you and your nervousness. I am always afraid of low-ball jobs. I guess I don't trust people and if a job is low-balled, I think you will get that kind of quality.

I have only had one car painted before by someone else. It only took 2 weeks to get it back and the job was great. I think that was just a fluke though, because, judging by everyone else I have heard from, taking months outside of the schedule seems to be the norm. I think they call it 'paint prison'?

My biggest worry about leaving a car in someone else's hand is the horry stories I have heard about businesses up and leaving do to various reasons and the owner losing their car.

[trapin]

I have heard that too, Josh. But in the case of a business going belly-up...how would someone lose their car? I've heard of peoples car's being trapped in the shop while the company and bank go through litigation, but I've never heard of that person not being able to ever get their car back. How could that be possible? The bank has no right to that car....it's not the shop's property. Damn....now you're REALLY scaring me. LOL!!!

[rockdogz]

Some people are just unable to give an accurate date to save their life... I've had some experience with this! If it's like this now, then when it comes time for your car to be done, next week may easily turn into three weeks ago... Or next month into three months ago... you get the idea.

[JoshStratton]

I've heard of peoples car's being trapped in the shop while the company and bank go through litigation...

So sorry. This is actually what I meant. That kind of stuff can take so long you never know when you would get it back.

[65chevelle''ss'']

I wouldn't worry about it at all to be honest with you..... I have come to the conclusion that some people have no real comprehension of time and on top of that "deadlines" don't mean a thing either...

My car has been in the bodyshop for over two years. I have seen probably two dozen deadlines come and go. I get things like "it's gonna be done by halloween" or "I'm going to SEMA one month from now, the car will be done then," etc etc etc.....

Are you happy with the quality of his workmanship so far???

I suggest that as long as you are happy with his workmanship and the quality of job he is giving you then I wouldn't worry about how long it takes. If my car takes 2 more years but it gets finished to the quality I would expect it to be, I will still be happy with it. My guy works afterhours pretty late sometimes, does your??

Try stopping by sometime afterhours with a six pack and never even look at or mention your car to him.... Shows your not ALL about your car and you do care about the long hours he puts in working on it for you.... Just my .02 cents

[JoshStratton]

^
^
^
He offers some excellent points. I wouldnt really worry about it either. In fact, I think it is great that he only works on one car at a time. That lets you know that he is going to be focused on you and only you.

[David Sloan]

[quote=trapin) He only does one car at a time and this is his full time job.

I don't know. I need my Pro-Touring brothers here to advise me from this point. Your thoughts?[/quote]

Did he give you a set price? If he did an he gave the guy with the 40 a quoted price he is loosing his a$$.

A lot of shops did this an now they are not in business anymore or they just dont quote a firm price.
There customer would want a slick paint job. They would tell them they could do it for said price, then they get the car stripped and find all kinds of shiiiiitt wrong. The customer comes in an says but you said this price for this work an iam going to sue you if i dont get it.

Hope this works out for you!!
Call me if you would like to talk over the phone about this.
And iam not trying to get you to send me your car to do, just trying to help!

[ProdigyCustoms]

Ya know, in his defense. it is real easy to fall behind. I have a situation as we speak were we worked the hood of a car for 2 weeks on and off while materials cured, molding the scoops we originally did not intend to mold. Get the hood perfect straight, test fit all the panels, and the hood is a 1/2" longer then the fenders! It was built wrong. So in the meantime, we need the bumper which is 1500 miles away for some test fitting, trimming or something, etc. That takes nearly a week to ship, now it is a repo piece of crap. So now I was supposed to get a parts car to dissect last Friday, it is not coming until tomorrow, so now it is nearly 3 frickin weeks because of a hood. Add that to getting a little overly involved to make it extra nice in some under carriage areas we were not going to paint, but shultz instead, and all of a sudden it is a couple months.

I would HIGHLY suggest dropping by and seeing the 40 Ford. If the quality is there, and he is just behind because he is "involved", you may want to wait him out. If it does not look good, find somewhere else.

In the meantime I am in the finishing stages of my How much does it cost story. Low ball pricing concerns will be part of the story. The bottom line is you know what is has to cost for a shop to successfully do the job to the level you request and still make money. It is simple math! If you are uncomfortable and feel like he may have low balled the project, you should be concerned.

[David Sloan]

Very good points Frank!
I understand the falling behind part( things get changed or things happen) They hardly ever get done at the time you predict! Because of all the things that happen. We have set backs as well as anybody in this business.
All iam saying is if i tell a man that i will take his car in 2 weeks .It is going to happen. one way or another. We will make room for it and get started working on it.
I have seen to many people with shops go under because of what i stated above.. They loose there butts on jobs qouted then they loose there business.
Cant wait to read your story. Thanks!

[David Sloan]

[quote=ProdigyCustoms]

I would HIGHLY suggest dropping by and seeing the 40 Ford. If the quality is there, and he is just behind because he is "involved", you may want to wait him out. If it does not look good, find somewhere else.


If it was my car that i was going to take to some body to do the work on it. I would do just what Franks said above!!!

We welcome any and all to stop by our shop an check it out!!
Check out our work in person. Dont make your mind up then come back a couple times check us out some more to see the progress we made on the different projects we have in that time frame.
Thanks Hope this helps!!

[Steve Chryssos]

Don't call. Use the time to investigate other shops. Just be glad that he doesn't have your car. And ask yourself if you will get more of the same when he DOES have your car. At that point, he'll have your car, your deposit and your short and curlies.

If this doesn't feel right, DON'T DO IT! (don't) Did I say don't?

[ProdigyCustoms]

Whats real bad is when the shop under estimates the time and adds to the bill continuously. it's bad enough to miss the schedule, it sucks twice as bad when it cost the customer to wait. Tony, you should see who is eating this, the shop or the customer? if it is the shop, can he continue to afford to eat these loses? If it is the customer, do you want to be next?

Just for cusriosity, how much is his quote and what is he doing?

[rockdogz]

I was wondering about this Frank - let's say you're billing the customer in parts as work is progressing off of a pre-agreed estimate. As the job goes on, things take longer than estimated because of all kinds of reasons such as the example you've given. Plus, the customer decides to have some small things changed here or there. At the end, when the customer is to pick up the car and make final payment, is there any legal reason that it has to match up with the estimate? What if they charge you more and just say that it took a lot more work than they thought?

[ProdigyCustoms]

Tom, for us it is real simple. The extra work we are doing on the undercarrige of the car I referenced, we are biting because we want to do it. The hood, we will bite it because it was our job to foresee it. NOW, if the customer adds work (which he has not yet), they will be charged. Basically our invioce states exactly what we will do, complete with a legend to explain things. and a cost, which we will do.

You will not ever find a customer of mine that got charged more then the original agreed cost to get the end result agreed to. Many shops won't do this tyoe of agreement, and I do not fault them as it is industry standard to give a "estimate".

[BRIAN]

You should consider yourself fortunate you found out his work ethics before starting on your car. Be smart and find a new place. It will only get worse. If this is a collision shop I gaurantee he is one of many jumping on the "Hey; I can do that" bandwagon.


To restore a car is 10x the work of doing collision work end of story. There are always delays but you guys should meet and lay it all on the table. Discuss all of your concerns and se how he handles the situation. You will be surprised how that nice guy can turn when it concerns money. Part of the job is communicating with customers. If you are calling everyday that is another story.


Get a new shop and get everything in writing!!

[trapin]

Well...let me give you guys the "low down" on whats going on here.

This guy came recommended to me by 2 other individuals that I'm acquainted with. I have seen his work on a '68 Corvette. It was a black paint job and the workmanship was very good. Gordie (the owner) was also very pleased with Matts work. Matt used to work in prototyping for GM years ago (in fact a friend of mine in the business knows him and used to work with him). He got out of that and opened a body shop with a friend of his. He said he grew tired of all the insurance work and having to deal with insurance adjusters, he just wanted to work on classic cars. So his friend bought him out and he built this shop on his property and has been freelancing for about 2 years. He does one car at a time and doesn't overcharge his customers (his words). He's actually a really nice guy and always invites me out to see what he's working on and I've taken him up on it a couple of times. He's got a nice shop...very clean and organized.

When he came out to look at my car, the price he quoted me was $5000 (to start out) and that the actual price would probably fall between 5 and 6 thousand dollars. Let me explain how that is.....

There is no rust on this car...no repairs that are needed. The fenders, upper and lower front valance panels, both full face quarters, rear valance panel, and drivers side door skin are all genuine GM/NOS parts made in America. The rockers, passenger side door skin, and hood are Goodmark replacements. The NOS stuff was put on the car in '94 and the car has been garaged since. Basically all it needs is to be gone over by a professional to make sure the surfaces are prepared for paint. Prime...block....seal....base....clear....and color sand, that's it. No cutting wheels or mig welders will be necessary. And if there's any filler needed, it will be minimal. Also...I'm not looking for a paint job that will rival the cars strutting across the stage at Barret Jackson, this is going to be a street car. I don't need to be able to comb my hair in my fender. It's so hard to find a painter that understands this because most of them are so frickin' paranoid that someone is going to see it and think that's the best they can do. I guess I can understand that. But if it helps any....I'll just say Ira Shalowitz from Bridgeport, NY painted it and I lost his number. What's the big deal?

So that's where I'm at here. I will note that I have taken this oppurtunity to seek out other painters in the area. I have talked to 2 others so far. One guy has stated $5000 to start the job, the other isn't so sure he wants to drive from Redford to Chesterfield to quote the job as he is swamped right now. The first guy is in Lapeer about 45 minutes from me and he quoted a turn-around time at 6 to 8 months.

Matt has a website and it can be found at; http://www.mattspaintshop.com

Thanks for all the helpful advice (especially David and Frank as I know this is what you do for a living). I appreciate it and will definitely keep you updated on what happens next. This car is fighting me...I can feel it. Nothing has come easy on this project. But I'm going to win the war. So help me God I'm going to win this war.

[Damn True]

Imagine you are doing a renovation on a home.
You call in an inspector to take a look at the place, see if it has termite damage, make sure the foundation is cool, the electric is up to snuff for your additions etc. Essentially your due dilligence.
Then you get an architecht to do some drawings for you. If it's heavy stuff you might get engineering drawings done.
All the above goes to the city to check against code etc etc.

Then you start interviewing contractors who will bid not only the cost, but the timeframe for the project. When you decide which contractor to go with you will agree on a timetable for certain tasks and if you are smart you will apply a penalty clause for late delivery of said tasks. (If it rains you can't put a roof on and that's fine, but if the tile guy has a hangover and the bathroom dosen't get done on time that is penalized).

You'd do all of that for your house right? Why would you do anything less where a car project is concerned?

Frankly I find it appalling that more shops don't take the stand that Frank does in regard to their estimates. What's more amazing is that so many put up with anything less than that.

Granted, if I were to bring in a complete car of unknown condition there is no way I could expect an accurate estimate until the car was blown apart and stripped. But once that is done it seems inexcusable for a PROFESSIONAL to not be able to accurately determine the cost in time/materials to fix whats needs fixin and paint what needs paintin.

What would you say if you were in a steakhouse and the cook came out and said, "Well sir, that $35 porterhouse was a lot harder to cook than we thought. We are gonna hafta charge you an extra $7.50."?

Tony, I'm with Steve-O. I'd spend my time looking for a shop that can and does deliver on time as well as doing quality work.

[Steve68]

Tony, I looked at Matts site, I would stick it out a little longer, looks like nice work, nice shop, and the cars look great when done,

[trapin]

Matt seems like he's pretty adept at estimates. He did come by and check out the car thoroughly. Tell you the truth, I wouldn't mind going as high as $8000 to paint this car....but anything more than that....gimmie a fricking break already.

I got those two other shops from Team Camaro and they came highly recommended. But that's all I got....painters are hard to find. If anyone from Michigan is reading this and can recommend someone I'd greatly appreciate it. I think I will stick it out a little longer but if August comes and goes, I'm going to have to investigate other options.

[krupt0924]

Hey i hope everything works out for u. I live in S/E MI and im about to have my first project painted sooner than later. If u find someone who does good work let me know.

[69lt4]

I was just checking in to see how things were going with your car. I'm getting close to doing the body work and paint. I was going to have someone else do it due to time contraints (2 1/2 and 4 month old kids). I'm thinking I will do it myself with the time to get in a place and then for them to complete it.

Kevin

[awr68]

Tony sorry to hear the bad, yet so common news! If it's anything like around here good/honest painters are hard to find when it comes to these old cars...and they are pretty busy when you find them!!

This thread reminds me I need to take a trip out to the shop I think I'm going to use and see how things are progressing, he's suppose to have it all cleared out by Oct. and start on mine if I'm ready...

I truely wish I was in the SE so I could just take it to David or Frank, at least then I know it would be in good hands and I could trust them when it came to the payment!!

Good luck and keep us updated!!

[trapin]

If it's anything like around here good/honest painters are hard to find when it comes to these old cars...and they are pretty busy when you find them!!
You know what I could add to that Anthony is, "painters that actually want to work." A lot of them will scoff at doing jobs. There must be something about sanding on panels long enough that just burns painters out LONG before they hit their 50's. I know it is hard work, not arguing that. But a guy waves $5000 in your face and says, "And there's more where this came from..." and you STILL turn your back on him. Amazing! Especially on a car like mine where you can leave the cutting wheel and the mig welder in the back of the shop. I just don't know what to do. I got a guy coming out, hopefully, on Tuesday. We'll see what he has to say. I gotta tell you though....I'm getting tired of this. SOMEBODY STEP UP TO THE PLATE ALREADY!!!!!

[rockdogz]

You know what I could add to that Anthony is, "painters that actually want to work." A lot of them will scoff at doing jobs. There must be something about sanding on panels long enough that just burns painters out LONG before they hit their 50's. I know it is hard work, not arguing that. But a guy waves $5000 in your face and says, "And there's more where this came from..." and you STILL still turn your back on him. Amazing! Especially on a car like mine where you can leave the cutting wheel and the mig welder in the back of the shop. I just don't know what to do. I got a guy coming out, hopefully, on Tuesday. We'll see what he has to say. I gotta tell you though....I'm getting tired of this. SOMEBODY STEP UP TO THE PLATE ALREADY!!!!!
Honestly, at the end of my ordeal I probably would have come out ahead if I would have shipped my car back east to Frank, Jake, or someone else from this board...

[novanutcase]

I say go with Frank or Chad(boilermaker)!

[c.schulz]

Holy S**T Tony. I cant believe he doesnt have that 40 done yet from our visit what 5-6 weeks ago? From what I remember him saying that he kept finding lots things wrong on the panels that he was fixing at the time. So if he went into the rest of the car Im sure he is in trouble and behind. Id give him the time and wait. Ive talked to a couple people that he used to work with him and they believe he dose good work but you will pay for what you get which is fair.
Hold in there a couple more weeks and let him call you he will be happier to do your job than if you keep buggin.

Chris

[trapin]

Chris...I am happy to report that all is good. He had to stop on the '40 to finish up the Hemi Challanger for that guy because he was heading down to the Mopar Nats. He called me on Tuesday and I dropped by his shop yesterday to check out the Challenger. Wow is that thing nice. Matt did a sweet job on it. The 40 is just about done, all that's left is to paint the hood. The guy is picking it up Saturday morning and I'm dropping mine off just after lunch. He even set me up with his buddy to tow it out there.

Just call me "Panic Boy". LOL!!!!!

[rockdogz]

Cool, sounds like things are looking up.


P.S.
Welcome to Hell


:razz:

[[email protected]]

go see
Well....it's been 4 weeks since my car was supposed to go to paint and the guy is still working on that '40 Ford that was supposed to be finished around July 5th. I don't know what to think here. It didn't look like there was all that much left to do on it, he kept telling me he was real close. Last Sunday I called him and he told me there was no change. I'm starting to get scared that this guy is avoiding me because he feels he low-balled me on the price and now doesn't want to do my car for that. If that's the case...why not just come out and say it? But I don't know...maybe he really is still working on it and the owner of the '40 Ford is making changes or being a pain in the ass or whatever. My wife told me not to call him again and just to wait for him to call when he's ready. I think I'll do that...but how much longer should I wait? The week leading up to July 5th he felt he would have the Ford done on July 9th, that's how close he indicated he was. What the hell could have happened that has caused the project to drag on another 4 weeks? He only does one car at a time and this is his full time job.

I don't know. I need my Pro-Touring brothers here to advise me from this point. Your thoughts?

[[email protected]]

im not much the key bord as you can see but I got dont know what missed up sorry if I did. but go see him face to face. and ask if this is how he would like it? if you were doing his bath room. LOL BUT NOT FUNNY GO TALK TO HE. [email protected]

[c.schulz]

And ask if this is how he would like it? if you were doing his bath room?.

To funny.
Tony glad to hear things are OK. From what Ive heard he is a good man to deal with. So take it for what its worth and Git-R-Done.
But hey you have the right to worry. This car is like one of your kids and you wouldnt stop thinking of them for one second.Just keep an eye on him with lots of visits with just a little beer, not to much.

Chris

[Steve68]

Good for you Tony!!! I just need to get mine to roll!!! Still!

[awr68]

Glad to hear the ball is finally rolling...and more so that you still like the workmanship!! I'm sure all will be fine in the end, just keep stopping by and don't let him stop working on it! Take care of all the contract legal stuff up front and then make a good friendship over the weeks it takes...it is possible to have fun with this part of the build!!

[protouring70]

If there was one thing I wish i would have learned to do , It would be learning how to paint and do body work!!!!!! I know it has to be a ruff job.!!!!