Pontiac, what to build, oh what to build?

[Johnny Blaze]

Not that I am anywhere near engine time, but I like to plan ahead.
I am trying to decide what kind of engine to build for our 67 firebird convert.

The car will be a cruiser, no trailer, and maybe a few passes at the track. Most likely it will be driven on the road, long trips are possible as well.


The engine must be a pontiac, no sbc or lsx.

Here are some ideas;

1. Stock appearing, stroked 400, so, arounf 467 cu, single carb, RPM intake, ram air manifolds, ported heads, custom flat tappet cam, ( can sound rough, remember the RA IV cam?)

2. 400 with custom twin turbo set up, using small streetable turbos, blowing through and efi Super Victor intake.

3. 400 with ATI Procharger blow through set up


The turbo set up may be a bit much. I am thinking the 400 with the ATI may be a better set up than the stroker. Smaller cubs= better gas usage, still could be fairly mild, but once you lay into it the boost would bring it to life.

Any ideas?

[andrewb70]

Sorry, but once you experience an LSx engine, your only reason for going with a Pontiac engine will be nostalgia.

If your set on a Pontiac engine, build it simple. The stroker sounds like a great idea.

Andrew

[Johnny Blaze]

Yes, nostalgia is a driving reason. I realize the benifits of the ls engines, but it seems like every 1st gen f body is getting one droped in it these days.

They are about as common as polished Tourqe Thrust's.

[andrewb70]

Yes, nostalgia is a driving reason. I realize the benifits of the ls engines, but it seems like every 1st gen f body is getting one droped in it these days.

They are about as common as polished Tourqe Thrust's.

Actually if you go to a lot of local car shows, you will see that LSx swaps are not THAT common. It only seems that way on the internet because people here and on other forums tend to not be afraid of electronics and computers. So to the people that frequent online forums the LSx swaps seem very common, but in the "real" world they are nowhere near as common as a set of TTII!

Thats just my observation.

Andrew

[68Formula]

How about a small single turbo? Unlike the blower it won't waste power (hence fuel) when you're not really putting your foot into it and the turbo would help quiet the exhaust for those long top-down cruises.

[PT Goat]

First of all, kudos for sticking with Pontiac power for your Pontiac!

If it were me (and I am in the middle of doing this myself), I'd find a 428or 455 4-bolt block to begin with (since you're building a '67, the 428 is "almost" correct). They are out there and really about the same cost to build as a 2-bolt engine. That will help you build a strong bottom end. I'd also go to a roller cam rather than a custom flat tappet - there have been so many non-roller cam failures lately. Guys like Kauffman can make you a custom-grind that can make wicked power and still be very streetable.

As for the rest of the motor, I'd lean more towards #1, but that's just my taste. Maybe you should consider an EFI setup too.

[Roadrage David]

400/440 ati procharger combo with a level 4 beefd up tr2004r and 3.42 rear ratio.forget the nostalgia comend!!!!!it wil kick lxs ass specialy useing the Kaufman mr1 block ore the indian adventure II block .moldex billet crank kaufman high port alu heads ecetera........

[Johnny Blaze]

400/440 ati procharger combo with a level 4 beefd up tr2004r and 3.42 rear ratio.forget the nostalgia comend!!!!!it wil kick lxs ass specialy useing the Kaufman mr1 block ore the indian adventure II block .moldex billet crank kaufman high port alu heads ecetera........

And paint it Pontiac Blue!

I am relly think Procharger:twothumbs

[68Formula]

Ah, but which Pontiac blue?

[Johnny Blaze]

The one for 67, I think its the darker of the two right?

Just think, stock chrome valve covers, louvered type air filter, paint the intake, and injector rails engine color. See how quickly people notice!

[hectore3]

Use the metallic blue/seafoam green hue. It is truly heavenly.

[Lowend]

A few years back I helped with a 389 Pontiac combo. I wanna say final displacment was ~420cid. We gutted the factory tri-power setup and built it into an EFI setup. The engine idled at under 1000RPM and made well over 500 ft/lbs of torque.
talk to Paul at Dyno West, the project was his baby. www.dynowest.com

[Zee]

I'm with Andrew on this one and if I had to do it over, I would go LS2. To each their own. So of the three you have listed, #3 strikes the best balance between cost, cool and performance. It's also a breeze to build a low compression 400 by selecting heads with the right cc.

[PT Goat]

Ah, but which Pontiac blue?

Correct for '67 would be the commonly available metallic blue. Get it at any Autozone The lighter robbins-egg blue (non-metallic) is correct for '64-5.

Here's a great website on the Pontiac engine colors: http://fiedlerh.home.att.net/enginecolor.htm (http://fiedlerh.home.att.net/enginecolor.htm)

[Scott Parkhurst]

They have aftermarket blocks now, and they're awesome.

Butler Performance Products sells them. They are half-inch taller deck, have improved engineering, and are available in aluminum if you want to save weight.

They can take up to a five-inch stroke crank without mods.

With a 'typical' 4.375-inch bore, that's 601 inches. With Butler's modified 'wide-port' Edelbrock heads and a mild roller, a 601 can make 740 horses on pump gas.

The Butlers race these same blocks with twin turbos in Pro Mod, and make 2,300-plus hp. You won't break one.

...and I like the metallic blue!

They look pretty badass too...

[Skip Fix]

There are LOTS of options now to stay "classic" Pontiac and compete with the "other" big inch other motors. All the way to aluminum aftermarket blocks. Heads that flow up to 400 cfm from KRE "High Ports" and All Pontiac "Tigers".

Ken "Pontiac Dude" Keefer has a bracket setup for a ATI supercharger bolt on. He also has a decent price on some bilet cranks.Edelbrock has EFI ready intakes now.

My current pump gas motor that pushes my 3750 lbs TA to 122 mph in the 1/4: 0.030 455 2 bolt block, 20cc dish Rosses, 0.010 4.21 455 crank, SCAT H beam "Pontiac" length rods,CNC ported Edelbrock aluminum heads 72cc chambers, Ultradyne 239/247 @ 0.050 112 LS, 107 IC flat tappet hydraulic, 1.8/1.7 rockers. Torker II, Holley 850 DP.

The Performer RPM is a good intake for a street strip motor type motor.

The 4.25 stroked cast crank and 6.8 BBC rods are a common swap to get a little more CI. There has been talk of some new forged cranks coming out, but so far none yet.

My new "race motor" is using a KRE-MR-1 block 4.350 bore, 4.21 stroke for 500ci. Another set of ported E heads. Solid roller, Voctor intake.

[critter]

It seems he only wants a cruiser and occasional drag strip pass. Why all the push for the forced induction or stroker? Why not build a solid, reliable 400 or 455 that will easily run 12s in the quarter and be a steady performer for the street?

BTW, corporate blocks belong in corporate cars. Until 1979, Pontiac had a Pontiac motor. Keep it that way and don't be like the rest of the pack in the pro-touring mind set.

[andrewb70]

BTW, corporate blocks belong in corporate cars. Until 1979, Pontiac had a Pontiac motor. Keep it that way and don't be like the rest of the pack in the pro-touring mind set.

How much of an engine has to be of Pontiac origin to be considered a Pontiac? Aftermarket block, heads, crank, rods, pistons, cam, bearing, rings, gaskets, lifters, rocker arms, intake, EFI, distributor, front cover, water pump, oil pan, oil pump etc...All those can be aftermarket. Sure sounds like a Pontiac to me...:rolleyes:

Andrew

[critter]

Look, chief, you chose the path of corporate in your GTO. We all know that and you're proud of it. Great. It's a great power plant. I have an LS1 car in my garage as well. I love it in the 98 TA my wife drives. Very good power and a very flat torque curve. That said, this fellow has a vintage car with the opportunity to put a vintage engine in it that will meet his needs. It seems that's his mind is set as it is with many of us. Why are you trying to stir up a whole traditional VS modern fight?

If you'll look at my post above you'll see that I'm wondering why, based on his stated use, he even wants money going out on power adders. He can easily accomplish his goals with a traditional Pontiac motor, NA and no power adder.

Protouring is cool as are LSX motors but it's just one of the many ways to build a car. You bought into the recipe for that. No problem with that. He's just looking a different direction. So what's so difficult about that for you to comprehend?

We aren't slamming you or your choice. We simply have another opinion. OK?

[andrewb70]

Look, chief, you chose the path of corporate in your GTO. We all know that and you're proud of it. Great. It's a great power plant. I have an LS1 car in my garage as well. I love it in the 98 TA my wife drives. Very good power and a very flat torque curve. That said, this fellow has a vintage car with the opportunity to put a vintage engine in it that will meet his needs. It seems that's his mind is set as it is with many of us. Why are you trying to stir up a whole traditional VS modern fight?

If you'll look at my post above you'll see that I'm wondering why, based on his stated use, he even wants money going out on power adders. He can easily accomplish his goals with a traditional Pontiac motor, NA and no power adder.

Protouring is cool as are LSX motors but it's just one of the many ways to build a car. You bought into the recipe for that. No problem with that. He's just looking a different direction. So what's so difficult about that for you to comprehend?

We aren't slamming you or your choice. We simply have another opinion. OK?

I know your not slamming and neither am I. Read my post again. I merely asked a question. I could care less what he does with his own car.

Andrew