PDA

View Full Version : Thinking of dumping my Comander 950 Pro wideband but for what?



MStennes
06-28-2006, 08:53 PM
Heres the deal I'm running a Comander 950 Pro Wideband on my 427 small block Chev, I have not ever been able to get it dialed in where I really would like it. All I see in the magazines is the FAST system, is the FAST that much better? Should I trash the Holley and go FAST?
Thanks,
Mike

Mkelcy
06-29-2006, 05:26 AM
Heres the deal I'm running a Comander 950 Pro Wideband on my 427 small block Chev, I have not ever been able to get it dialed in where I really would like it. All I see in the magazines is the FAST system, is the FAST that much better? Should I trash the Holley and go FAST?
Thanks,
Mike

Have you tried asking questions on the EFI forum at ChevyTalk? The mod, who also posts a lot, is a Holley employee who IIRC works on Commander 950 and is very knowlegeable about their EFI.

DeltaT
06-29-2006, 11:34 AM
MStennes,

What problem are you having with the 950? I've tuned 5 of them now, with the wideband option, and have had great results. Shoot me a PM with your email and I'll send you mine and then you could shoot me your latest 950 setup file and I'll look at it.

I agree about the Chevytalk forum. There's a lot of knowledgable people there in the EFI Forum. I am 'Street_Sweeper' there.

Regards,

Jim

ProdigyCustoms
06-29-2006, 11:54 AM
The camshaft in Prodigy's motor just did not pull enough vacum for a non sequential set up. But the Holley should be fine in most non super radical applications.

xxxturbo6
06-29-2006, 07:26 PM
Frank I take it you got ahold of Cal Hartline? I'm going to the fast XFI soon and Cal will be doing the base tuning on it. Looking forward to meting you this Sept at the "run in the hills" see ya there, Scot w

DeltaT
07-09-2006, 07:35 PM
Frank,

What problem(s) were you having with the 950?

Jim

Blown353
07-09-2006, 08:10 PM
Stepping from a C950 w/wideband to an XFI would be a small leap forward-- a little bit more functionality but probably not worth the effort and money IMO, being there are better and more advanced alternatives out there in the same price range... on the other hand, stepping from a C950 up to something like an AEM or a Autronics ECU would be well worth it as they offer far more in terms of capabilities.

The FAST and XFI are good boxes (I run a FAST and I've tuned a couple XFI's now) but they aren't in the same league as AEM & Autronics which are both at the same price point and are well ahead of the typical "hot rod boxes" (i.e. C950, Gen VII, XFI, BS3) that you see advertised in "our" magazines.

Still, box capabilities aside I would recommend you purchase what either you or a local guy can tune. Having the best ECU out there means squat if nobody around you can tune the thing, and you can get in well over your head in a hurry with either the AEM or Autronics software.

ProdigyCustoms
07-10-2006, 02:30 AM
Still, box capabilities aside I would recommend you purchase what either you or a local guy can tune. Having the best ECU out there means squat if nobody around you can tune the thing, and you can get in well over your head in a hurry with either the AEM or Autronics software.

Exactly. Most important, technical assisitance! Woodie and I talked for hours

andrewb70
07-11-2006, 06:18 PM
Exactly. Most important, technical assisitance!

Delta, Too many problems, I think it was just a bit primitive for our set up.

Frank,

Perhaps you need to post the specifications of your cam. The reason the Commander 950 did not work on your particular combination was a complete lack of vacuum.

I could give a s**t about Holley now, but when a product issue arises all variables need to be examined.

Andrew

ProdigyCustoms
07-11-2006, 07:15 PM
I think as Andrew said, it was low vacum causing the problem

andrewb70
07-11-2006, 07:26 PM
Besides irratic pulses that minutly fired injectors and cylinders all the time, exactly like Parsons did. It seemed to hate Michaels 268/270 @ .050 cam.

We did put a FAST on Parsons car and imediatly straighten it out.

The FAST straightened John's setup out because he was trying to do something with the Commander that it was not designed to do (work on LSx engines). It was suspected that it may work, but lastly it did not. As a counter point, Ive had a Commander working on my LS1 powered RX7 within 2 hours with the Commander controlling fuel and the stock computer running the ignition.

Andrew

ProdigyCustoms
07-11-2006, 07:31 PM
Yeah, but your smart!

andrewb70
07-12-2006, 10:18 AM
Yeah, but your smart!

Well thanks Frank!

The complexity of aftermarket EFI systems is one of the reasons that more people in the muscle car world don't make the switch.

Andrew

Elusive R
07-12-2006, 11:52 AM
I don't know if this is on topic or not, but is it really necessary to run an aftermarket computer on an LS1 anyway? The stock computers are very powerful and can run in speed density, 2 or 3 bar modes, etc, with EFILive and maybe other software programs, too.

Ryan

FJB2069
07-12-2006, 12:38 PM
Check out THe O2Alert by Altronics. www.Altronicsinc.com Can control two widebands plus additional sensors and has warning output.

ProdigyCustoms
07-12-2006, 01:12 PM
I don't know if this is on topic or not, but is it really necessary to run an aftermarket computer on an LS1 anyway? The stock computers are very powerful and can run in speed density, 2 or 3 bar modes, etc, with EFILive and maybe other software programs, too.

Ryan

Parson's elected to use a 4 barrel throttle body Holley) for a old school traditional look and to be able to do real cowl induction with a Nascar type air cleaner. So it forced the aftermarket ECM.

andrewb70
07-12-2006, 02:36 PM
Parson's elected to use a 4 barrel throttle body Holley) for a old school traditional look and to be able to do real cowl induction with a Nascar type air cleaner. So it forced the aftermarket ECM.

Actually Parsons could have used a stock ECU with the 4 barrel throttle body. He would have ditched the MAF and done a speed density tune.

Andrew

DeltaT
07-15-2006, 09:04 PM
Besides irratic pulses (on the Holley 950) that minutly fired injectors and cylinders all the time...

The only time I've seen that is when someone grounded the wideband controller analog ground to the Holley 950 case and then to the same ground as the 950. Some sort of interference that caused strange IAC and injectors problems that was cured by running 3 seperate grounds: 950, WB analog, WB digital. Not saying that was your problem, and it probably doesn't matter any more, but...

Also curious, did you try Alpha-N at idle then switch to closed loop?

Glad to hear you're running great. Is the Holley ECU for sale by any chance?

Jim

ProdigyCustoms
07-16-2006, 02:45 AM
While I cannot determine weather we shared common grounds or not, what you describe is very close to the problems we had, A feaking out IAC and irratic spark pulses is exactly our problem.

DeltaT
07-16-2006, 08:54 PM
I will check with the guy that was asking. Any idea about a package price?

FYI - I have heard that Holley now knows about this problem and has put a software 'fix' in their latest software that is supposed to make the IAC less sensitive. But the ground seperation is still important - the SW can only do so much.

Jim

ProdigyCustoms
07-17-2006, 02:32 AM
FYI - I have heard that Holley now knows about this problem and has put a software 'fix' in their latest software that is supposed to make the IAC less sensitive. But the ground seperation is still important - the SW can only do so much.

Jim

Of coarse!

DeltaT
07-20-2006, 12:16 PM
Any idea about a package price?


Frank, any price so I can give my friend the details?

Thanks,

Jim

ProdigyCustoms
07-20-2006, 01:28 PM
makes sense.

DeltaT
07-21-2006, 09:48 PM
I'll pass that on. Didn't see an email, but I'll check again.

Thanks,

Jim

parsonsj
07-25-2006, 12:43 PM
he only time I've seen that is when someone grounded the wideband controller analog ground to the Holley 950 case and then to the same ground as the 950. Some sort of interference that caused strange IAC and injectors problems that was cured by running 3 seperate grounds: 950, WB analog, WB digital. Not saying that was your problem, and it probably doesn't matter any more, but...
Wow. The WB controller doesn't have a separate ground (or at least mine doesn't). Just a connector to O2 sensor and a 4 pin connector to the Commander.

My problem (as Andrew mentioned above) seemed to be related to an incompatibility between the Commander's RPM input, and my MSD 6010 rpm output. I got it to run a few times, but it was intermittent. In the end, it was too frustrating. I also "almost" got it working with a FAST eDIST and UCD supplying a Hall Effect crank sensor input. The engine would kind of start, then die with a cacophony of backfires. The problems all seemed to be timing/ignition related, because as I would get good spark and RPM input, the car would start.

All boxes were sent back and verified by the manufacturer. Over a weekend, I swapped the Commander for a FAST, and I was up, running, with a tuned idle and WOT in 2 days. Cal Hartline and Mike Norris helped out with tuning and a chassis dyno, and now I have a running car.

I really really really tried to get the Commander to work, but I'm with Andrew: it just wasn't designed for use with an engine without a distributor, and the other aftermarket pieces were incompatible. If only Holley made their version of an eDIST/Crank decoder, I'm sure it would have worked.

I can say that on the engine dyno the Commander made the same power as a more expensive Pantera setup, and just as much as a carb.

I didn't completely abandon Holley: I'm using all their sensors, some of their wiring, and their throttle body. I did have a glitch with the IAC (we disabled it to get the car to idle at 900 rpm), but I've since figured that out. I used the wrong pinout from the Holley manual.

jp

Skip Fix
07-25-2006, 01:57 PM
So if I have a new in box Commander 950 TBI setup is it worth upgrading it to the wideband to use a multiport controller now that Edelbrock has some EFI ready manifolds for us Pontiacs? or still more cost effective to jump into a FAST unit?

A 500+ci Pontiac would look better in that red GTO. My 500 incher is at the machine shop now.

ProdigyCustoms
07-25-2006, 02:05 PM
Skip, we already have a FI pontiac, with a Edelbrock intake and FAST running. it is the snizitz

parsonsj
07-25-2006, 02:18 PM
Skip, listen to Frank.

He is a FAST dealer, and came over to my house and helped me work out the final harness prototype and got the car up and running. He's the man.

Of course, he also got me in trouble with my neighbor, but that's another story. :)

jp

Skip Fix
07-26-2006, 02:20 PM
But I've got this brand new Holley system just sitting there!

parsonsj
07-26-2006, 04:22 PM
Skip,
If you have a distributor, you're golden with the Holley. The LS1 doesn't, which is really the source of all my troubles. I had to have an electronic equivalent for a distributor, and that's really at the root of my troubles.

jp

Steve68
07-26-2006, 05:33 PM
Ya, that and the neighbors!!

Whats her name Butch??

andrewb70
07-27-2006, 04:26 AM
But I've got this brand new Holley system just sitting there!

So use it!

Andrew

Skip Fix
07-27-2006, 06:39 AM
Well that was my thoughts to use it. The wideband upgrade though is $750, so if if even after that the controller is a PITA to use, it would be worthwhile to start from scratch with another.

Yes got a distributor, and I can always not use it the old fashionesd way (advance curve in it)and not use the computer for that.

EFI is something I've been looking at pretty hard, especially after tryign to dial in a few carbs with my wide band LM-1. The computer coudl do it alot easier, if I can learn the computer. I kind got jets,squirters PVs down, working on air bleeds.

ProdigyCustoms
07-27-2006, 06:57 AM
If you own the Holley, it will should be fine as long as you can find a tuner familiar with the system, and assuming your engine is not to radical. You will need to do something about a distributor, and also the wide band is a important upgrade. Weather you spend another $750 is your call., A FAST set up will cost you a couple grand for ONLY the box and harnesses for a XFI.

My big decision maker would be finding a tuner that KNOWS the system like out friend Delta or Andrew. Holley tech is not easy to get through to, and the tech guys, while they know the product, are difficult at best to get ANY additional information when trouble shooting. They also seem to have very little patience for newbies to their system, or FI in general. So again, having a live tuner, or a phone friend, is essential. Maybe out buddy Delta would be a consultant for you if you use the Holley.

andrewb70
07-27-2006, 09:03 AM
Well that was my thoughts to use it. The wideband upgrade though is $750, so if if even after that the controller is a PITA to use, it would be worthwhile to start from scratch with another.

Yes got a distributor, and I can always not use it the old fashionesd way (advance curve in it)and not use the computer for that.

EFI is something I've been looking at pretty hard, especially after tryign to dial in a few carbs with my wide band LM-1. The computer coudl do it alot easier, if I can learn the computer. I kind got jets,squirters PVs down, working on air bleeds.

If you already own an LM-1 it will hook up to the Commander without any problems. I used to run my Commander with the LM-1. You can use any wideband controller with the Commander as long as the controller has an analog output. The Commander software is programmable for any wideband controller output voltage curve.

Holley's widebands are made by FJO. Thats no big secret. I think FJO makes the most bullet proof controllers on the market. If you get an FJO, it will plug right into the Commander.

Andrew

Skip Fix
07-28-2006, 11:33 AM
Holley has you send in the unit for the addition of the wide band, so I'm not sure if the unit doesn't need some new hardware also. They give you the upgraded software and the sensor for that. I would think though thp upgrade to allow the computer to do the tuning ic cost effective for the time spent doing it by hand even with the LM-1.

I would think I could even pull the injector pods off the TBI and use it as a plain TB for multi port injectors also.

The Pontiac Edelbrock Victor EFI is really the Torker II and uses shorter PICO injectors for the fuel rails to clear the TB. The Super Victor is the actual Victor and can use either injectors. But even with a shorter than a carb TB it's stil too tall to fit uncer my Shaker.

andrewb70
07-29-2006, 05:29 AM
Holley has you send in the unit for the addition of the wide band, so I'm not sure if the unit doesn't need some new hardware also. They give you the upgraded software and the sensor for that. I would think though thp upgrade to allow the computer to do the tuning ic cost effective for the time spent doing it by hand even with the LM-1.

I would think I could even pull the injector pods off the TBI and use it as a plain TB for multi port injectors also.

The Pontiac Edelbrock Victor EFI is really the Torker II and uses shorter PICO injectors for the fuel rails to clear the TB. The Super Victor is the actual Victor and can use either injectors. But even with a shorter than a carb TB it's stil too tall to fit uncer my Shaker.

The reason that you have to send the ECU into Holley is to get the firmware upgraded. There are no hardware upgrades required for the ECU. The only other thing that you will need is the latest version of the software to run on your PC. If you were to do the upgrade I can email you the software. There is an EFI forum on chevytalk.com. Doug Flynn from Holley is the moderator and many others that contribute to the forum run the Commander 950 system.

Lets also make something clear. Adding a wideband to ANY EFI system does NOT make it magically tune itself. A wideband is simply a tool to be used by the tuner to dial in the fuel map as accurately as possible. You can't have a fuel map that is WAY off and put the computer in closed loop and expect it to compensate for the poor tune. That will not work at all. On all my set-up I run in open loop at idle and above 80% throttle. I only enable closed loop function at moderate throttle levels and load.

Andrew

Skip Fix
07-29-2006, 06:13 AM
So can you upgrade the firmware and hook up the wide band without sending it in? I know my LM-1 I downloaded and hooked it to the PC and upgraded it. $750 seems like alot for an $80 sensor and some firmware.

andrewb70
07-29-2006, 09:18 AM
So can you upgrade the firmware and hook up the wide band without sending it in? I know my LM-1 I downloaded and hooked it to the PC and upgraded it. $750 seems like alot for an $80 sensor and some firmware.

You need the firmware upgraded. The wideband is more than just a sensor. There is a controller that is included as well. So if you were to use the LM1, you would have to mount the LM1 in the car. Then you use the analog output on the LM1 and input that to the Commander 950.

Andrew

DeltaT
07-29-2006, 02:42 PM
One way the wideband excels on the Holley 950 (and probably others) is in combination with the datalog (to either laptop or the 950). You can make a run in full closed loop with the O2 Compensation Limits at +-15 and datalog the entire run. Then go back and look at the datalog and you can see, point by point, where the 950 was adding or subtracting fuel to meet your AFR target points for each particular load and rpm point. Then you tweak your fuel map to get it closer to ideal - I consider it done when the range is 95%-99% of target AFRs.

Once you tweak, you save the tune under a different revision number, try it out, datalog again, tweak as necessary, repeat until you have a great running car. I'm on tuning revision #84 now, starting from the correct Holley wideband base map. I'm playing around with lean, light-load cruising AFRs of 15.75-16.00, to get the best cruise mileage out of her. WOT is pretty much perfect, at 7.5# boost and and AFR right about 12.00-12.20.

BTW, I am running closed loop all the time, even under boost, but the O2 Comp Limits under higher load and rpm are very tight on allowing the 950 to pull fuel out. I only let it pull a max of 2 points out anywhere above 50% load and 4000rpm, but I'll let it add a max of 4. I do a plug check after every good ride, and everything looks perfect.

When I hook up the nitrous I will go open loop at like 90% TPS but still log AFRs like crazy, to make sure I'm running a sane nitrous/fuel mixture.

Jim

My Site: http://home.mindspring.com/~jim_fisk/id1.html

Skip Fix
07-29-2006, 08:47 PM
Thanks for the thoughts guys, sounds like it may be a decent start on EFI to try it.

andrewb70
07-30-2006, 07:21 AM
One way the wideband excels on the Holley 950 (and probably others) is in combination with the datalog (to either laptop or the 950). You can make a run in full closed loop with the O2 Compensation Limits at +-15 and datalog the entire run. Then go back and look at the datalog and you can see, point by point, where the 950 was adding or subtracting fuel to meet your AFR target points for each particular load and rpm point. Then you tweak your fuel map to get it closer to ideal - I consider it done when the range is 95%-99% of target AFRs.

Once you tweak, you save the tune under a different revision number, try it out, datalog again, tweak as necessary, repeat until you have a great running car. I'm on tuning revision #84 now, starting from the correct Holley wideband base map. I'm playing around with lean, light-load cruising AFRs of 15.75-16.00, to get the best cruise mileage out of her. WOT is pretty much perfect, at 7.5# boost and and AFR right about 12.00-12.20.

BTW, I am running closed loop all the time, even under boost, but the O2 Comp Limits under higher load and rpm are very tight on allowing the 950 to pull fuel out. I only let it pull a max of 2 points out anywhere above 50% load and 4000rpm, but I'll let it add a max of 4. I do a plug check after every good ride, and everything looks perfect.

When I hook up the nitrous I will go open loop at like 90% TPS but still log AFRs like crazy, to make sure I'm running a sane nitrous/fuel mixture.

Jim

My Site: http://home.mindspring.com/~jim_fisk/id1.html (http://home.mindspring.com/%7Ejim_fisk/id1.html)


Jim,

That is exactly how tuning should be done! So many times people think that a wideband is some magic device that will miraculously make their car run perfectly. Thats just not case.

The light load and partial throttle tuning by far take the most amount of time. You can tune WOT in about 30 minutes. Getting the rest of the map is the challanging part.

Andrew

parsonsj
07-30-2006, 08:50 AM
You can tune WOT in about 30 minutes. Getting the rest of the map is the challanging part.Ain't that the truth! My WOT was tuned in 3 dyno pulls, each taking about 10 minutes. My engine is right at 12.00 all the way through 7000 rpm. Amazingly easy.

Now comes the hard part: light load and part throttle.

jp

Skip Fix
07-30-2006, 02:33 PM
But trying to tune light load and part throttle on a carb even with a wide band take ALOT of time too.


Thankks for all the input. I was under the impression the wideband and the computer tune it self. Stil sounds like since i have the unit might as well use it!

Any experience with the PICO injectors Edelbrock uses with their Pontiac system?

DeltaT
07-30-2006, 04:25 PM
The one spoiler for tuning up to about 4000rpm is to remember to tune at steady state throttle positions and speeds. I've seen a lot of people get messed up when they forget acceleration enrichment and its effects on AFR. Or they play with AE right away when the fuel map isn't even close yet.

I highly recommend Jeff Hartman's book "Tuning and Modifying Engine Management Systems". His chapter, "EFI-101" takes you through the process of a new tune, on NA or boosted motors, all the way to a fully tuned machine. Best $20 I ever spent.

Jim

KAA
08-04-2006, 05:38 AM
$750 seems like alot for an $80 sensor and some firmware. There's a very cost effective alternative if you're running a Holley Commander. Innovate Motorsports has a nifty little device called the LC-1. It's a wideband 02 sensor/controller. The controller is built into the cable. Many Commander users are running that setup with great results. The LC-1 can be found on Ebay for under $200.

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/lc1.php

Setting up the Commander:

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/resources/AN_14_1.0_Commander950.pdf

Skip Fix
08-04-2006, 12:37 PM
Well I've got an LM-1 and also the Holley. I just didn't know if the newer software with the Holley wide band upgrade makes it more user friendly with it hard wired in also. My LM-1 with the AUX Box I did have to mess with the rpm input and a variable resistor to trim out the ignition noise. That page mentions a potential ground issue with it. I have a little electronic abilities but to much design goes over my head.

andrewb70
08-04-2006, 04:12 PM
Well I've got an LM-1 and also the Holley. I just didn't know if the newer software with the Holley wide band upgrade makes it more user friendly with it hard wired in also. My LM-1 with the AUX Box I did have to mess with the rpm input and a variable resistor to trim out the ignition noise. That page mentions a potential ground issue with it. I have a little electronic abilities but to much design goes over my head.

You don't need to use the AUX box when you wire the LM1 to the Commander 950.

Andrew

ks71z28
08-08-2006, 03:03 PM
I went with the FJO wideband for the $$$ savings over buying it directly from holley. it took about an hour to make a new junction harness, so if i ever need to switch back to narrow band, and the car was up and running. FJO had really good customer support too boot! My Holley Stealth Ram and wideband cost about $3000, not too shabby.

Skip Fix
08-09-2006, 06:55 PM
Just mentioning having to adjust inputs may be getting beyond when I would know it needed doing.They mentioned in that article having to tweak it some.

Fuelie Nova
08-31-2006, 05:36 PM
Just for the record Holley came out with a new wideband controller and sensor for $300. It is supposed to be a step above the LC-1 and a step below their high end model.
Tom

andrewb70
08-31-2006, 06:07 PM
Just for the record Holley came out with a new wideband controller and sensor for $300. It is supposed to be a step above the LC-1 and a step below their high end model.
Tom

Good news. For the record, the lower cost of the new controller is due to the use of the Bosch sensor and a lower margin. You can use either sensor with this new controller.

Andrew

Skip Fix
09-01-2006, 12:05 PM
Part #? the old $750 price I got was even through Summit to purchase , then you send in the box to Holley.

Fuelie Nova
09-01-2006, 12:19 PM
Holley part number 534-197. I just ordered one from holley, price was $300. Down the road if you want to update to a NTK sensor you can just change a jumper on the board.
Tg

Skip Fix
09-02-2006, 12:17 PM
Seems like the Bosch is the standard sensor most wide bands are using now.

So do you have to send in the unit to Holley still?

MStennes
09-03-2006, 09:40 PM
After reading this I realized I have no clue to thne tuning, how the heck do you use the data logger? I'am close but not where it should be. My wideband controller is 1 year old is the new one better? My problem also is no one around here has clue so I'm on my own. Because of all my problems I decided to sell it and go with a LS7 6 speed

andrewb70
09-04-2006, 04:57 AM
After reading this I realized I have no clue to thne tuning, how the heck do you use the data logger? I'am close but not where it should be. My wideband controller is 1 year old is the new one better? My problem also is no one around here has clue so I'm on my own. Because of all my problems I decided to sell it and go with a LS7 6 speed

Your older wideband controller is just fine. The new one is just less expensive due to the use of the less expensive Bosch sensor.

The lack of tuning experience is one of the major road block to wide adoption of aftermarket EFI systems. People are finding it hard to tune their engines and they get frustrated. If you want EFI, then going with an LSx engine is definitely the way to go. You could do worse then stuffing an LS7 in your car...LOL

Andrew

MStennes
09-04-2006, 06:44 AM
I know I have been worried about the LS7....also, LOL I'm planning on selling the whole 950 set up way far away lol but seriuosly I would like to know how to use the setup as I have a 68 GTO I was thinking of a LS2 or this 950 system.

DeltaT
09-04-2006, 02:46 PM
Since I'm in between jobs, I'll come up and tune from San Jose, CA, for a modest amount. I've done 6 950-based cars now, and 3 of them were forced induction. Send me a PM.

Jim

My Site: http://home.mindspring.com/~jim_fisk/id1.html