Poison Dart??!! Wtf??!!!

[trapin]

I finally caught that Wrecks To Riches show last night.

Does anyone know when that segment for the '69 Dart was taped? Where they building that car the same time Schwartz was doing his?

I don't know....if this was done recently, that's a pretty gutless move to steal a name from another car which has already had noterity from it. Schwartzs car has graced the pages of PHR, been seen at Detroit Autorama and if my memory serves me correct it was at SEMA back in Novermber.

I don't want to accuse them of being theives but....C'mon....Jeffs car has been all over the internet since last Summer.

[BuddyP]

I was thinking the same thing. I suppose it's possibly that show could've been taped a year ago??

[trapin]

I'll give them the benefit of the doubt until I learn otherwise.

[Happyfunballs]

That was the first thing I thought of when I was watching that show last night. Barry annoys me for some reason. I did like the car.

[ponchopwr70]

I thought the same thing. I think they named the car after the group posion, but still its the same name. I was a little confused, but the car was nice.

[1970cuda]

if the build time line for the show is real. the russo steele auction is at the same time a Barrett Jackson so it is in late January. they said that they had four weeks to build it (dec-jan?) and they had Ricky Rocket sign the consule "poison 06". so my guess is that it was built after Sema so they would have had some clue about the Schwartz Posion Dart unless they don't go to sema and he doesn't use Holley products.

[rocketman]

Or there is now 2 poison darts.But the car didn't have any poison dart markings on it.They just named it that.

[speedster]

I think they meant to call it a ButtDart...

[BADVELLE]

I think all of this naming car crap is getting out of hand! Who cares what the name is, they are two different Darts/cars, leave it at that.

[6'9"Witha69]

That is like someone else building a 69 Camaro and naming it the MULE.

[Steve1968LS2]

Or there is now 2 poison darts.But the car didn't have any poison dart markings on it.They just named it that.

I had a dash plaque that said "poison dart"

[MarkM66]

I think all of this naming car crap is getting out of hand! Who cares what the name is, they are two different Darts/cars, leave it at that.

I agree, it's not like it was that much of an original idea. Barry and his crew probably don't even know of the other car.

[1970cuda]

i agree that the naming of cars is a little crazy but having a second mule just would not sit right with me. at least they had a reason for naming it that(ricky rocket from poison). it could have ended up the dead kennedys dart or the limp bizkit dart. but out of professional courtesy, they should have checked if there was another poison dart, just think if they built a convertible for a guy named boyd and called it a boydster.....

[Siroadrnr]

I think Garbage Dart has a good ring to it.....he he he

[vanzuuk1]

I am still calling my car "the pearl green cyclone"



Just kidding.

[trapin]

I think all of this naming car crap is getting out of hand! Who cares what the name is, they are two different Darts/cars, leave it at that.
What's the fun in that? :hmm:

I'm going to have to agree though................"Buttdart" IS a pretty good name.

[BADVELLE]

What's the fun in that? :hmm:

I'm going to have to agree though................"Buttdart" IS a pretty good name.

You are right, there is no fun in that and I did not mean to come off as a butt! (no pun intended to the "Buttdart"!) I think a lot of the names that people are coming up fit the projects, i.e., Eternity, this is how I feel with my project, the damn thing is just taking so long.

Also, I do like Buttdart, I guess they could of found Butthead from Beavis and Butthead to sign the car!!!!!!!!!!!!:lol: :lol:

[Nine Ball]

I am still calling my car "the pearl green cyclone"



Just kidding.

Thanks, I just spit up my drink laughing. :)

[dropit69]

i think if it was poison green ..like the bands color it would have been cool..but red and then associate it with a band that uses green as their trademark was just dumb..maybe because i was in high school in the 80's and love all the hair bands im biased..just my opinoin..

[vanzuuk1]

My friend had a green car and wanted to call it "envy" (as in green with envy), I liked that idea.

"Butt dart" would need to be a brown car, and lets just leave it at that.

[1970cuda]

good thing it was a dart and not a dart swinger or scamp. we really could have had fun with those names but remember it is the nova of the mopar world.

[Beige]

I figured it was a ripoff too but I didn't care that much.

It's not like this is the first time a project name has been used more than once.

Try to think of a name you'd call your own Dart project. I doubt it would be the same as the ones dreamt up in this thread.

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

BITERS as we call them where im from..

stole the name..:here!:

[LoPro67]

good thing it was a dart and not a dart swinger or scamp. we really could have had fun with those names but remember it is the nova of the mopar world.

Hey, HEY! What is that suppose to mean? "Nova of the Mopar world"?

:enguard:

[1970cuda]

that is what ricky rocket said the dart was. you have a dam nice chevy II by the way

[CarlC]

I am still calling my car "the pearl green cyclone"



Just kidding.

That's freakin' hilarious on so many levels.....

[andrewb70]

I am still calling my car "the pearl green cyclone"



Just kidding.

Hey ya'll...Do it have a 383 stroker motor...

Andrew

P.S....Im going to hell....

[Bill Howell]

I agree, it's not like it was that much of an original idea. Barry and his crew probably don't even know of the other car.


Come on now. As much as the dart Jeff built has been around, anyone who is anyone knows that car or at least has heard about it. Do a search on our board and see how many threads it is in. I know that car was on power tour last year, in a trailer and pulled out at the stops, cause Frank saw it here, then I saw it at SEMA, and Detroit Autorama. Not that names make or break a car, but I would ask around before I used one that has just been used. To me there is only one Poison Dart, the one Jeff built.
BTW, I saw Jeff and his hotrod about two hours ago. That ultima is one bad ass car. Too bad fat boys don't fit into them.:lol:

[moparguy]

Yep, I thought that was a little strange calling it the poison dart also since there has already been one that has had alot of print time and notoriety.
It would be like someone coming up with another BigRed 69 Camaro or another Mule Camaro and having it appear on TV and in print like its just groundbreaking...its just not right....but the Dart is the nova of the mopar world! That is just too funny!

[hotrodgal]

Hello Everyone,

Just wanted to pop on and say that at the time we were working on the Dart, Barry and I had no idea about the other "Poison Dart". We were at SEMA, but spent so much time in the Ford booth and with our camera crew that we didn't see much anything else. Chris actually came up with the idea of using Rikki Rocket and Poison, he has a good friend that works for the record label that represents the band, and they thought it would be a good publicity idea. Sorry if we offended anyone (AGAIN!!!) but unless Chris has an agenda I don't know about, this was entirely coincidental. Thanks for watching the show!!

[trapin]

Thanks for your input Becky. Like I said, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. I'm really trying to decide if I like the show or not. Seems like today we have two factions of the Hot Rod industry; The Hobbiests and The Oppurtunists. In other words...some people build cars because they love them....others build them because they love the money they can make from them. I am not familiar with the Oppurtunist's world and I really hate what's happening to all these old cars. They've become the proverbial trading card for the upper class. And I think that's too bad.

[hotrodgal]

Tony, I guess we can be classified as both "hobby-ists" and "opportunists", if that's what you want to call us. We have been building cars for over 25 years...started out just doing it for the love of it in our garage, and as people saw what Barry could do, more and more asked him to do the work on their cars that they either couldn't or didn't want to do. That has turned into the business you see today. We were just lucky enough to be able to turn our passion (which in case you haven't noticed is building awesome cars) into a profitable business that allows us to do what we love all day long. Thanks for watching!

[camcojb]

Tony, I guess we can be classified as both "hobby-ists" and "opportunists", if that's what you want to call us. We have been building cars for over 25 years...started out just doing it for the love of it in our garage, and as people saw what Barry could do, more and more asked him to do the work on their cars that they either couldn't or didn't want to do. That has turned into the business you see today. We were just lucky enough to be able to turn our passion (which in case you haven't noticed is building awesome cars) into a profitable business that allows us to do what we love all day long. Thanks for watching!

I like the builds you've done. I think the prices they've sold at are very good deals, considering the quality of the build.

Jody

[SN65]

Hi All,

Just my two cents, but if you don't want anyone else to inadvertantly (ore otherwise) use the name you applied to your car, just TM it. It does not cost a penny and you will have protected the name from unauthorized use.

[trapin]

Tony, I guess we can be classified as both "hobby-ists" and "opportunists", if that's what you want to call us. We have been building cars for over 25 years...started out just doing it for the love of it in our garage, and as people saw what Barry could do, more and more asked him to do the work on their cars that they either couldn't or didn't want to do. That has turned into the business you see today. We were just lucky enough to be able to turn our passion (which in case you haven't noticed is building awesome cars) into a profitable business that allows us to do what we love all day long. Thanks for watching!
Becky, I think you misunderstood me. I wasn't thinking of you, Barry and your business when I was talking about "Oppurtunists". Doing what you love as a means of making a living is totally different. I think that's great. Hell, I would LOVE to do that. I'm talking about the people who are only in this hobby to exploite these great cars and get rich off of them. It's the guy who says, "Hey...I'll pay $70,000 for this Chevelle right now because I know in another year someone will give me $30-$40,000 more for it". I have a real big problem with that and not a lot of respect for the people who are guilty of it. How long before all these great cars are in the hands of the wealthy who's only real interest in them is to further their financial gain?

Sorry for my belly-aching....but I guess I'm just the sentimental type. And I certainly don't mean for my opinions to piss anyone off, although I know they probably will. I'm usually good for about 1 or 2 "foot-to-mouth" insertions a year on this board anyway. I'm about due for one.

I should probably add that I like what you and Barry do and that I also understand that what you do on that show is not necessarily your normal business routine. You guys build some killer cars. I know I said I wasn't sure if I liked the show or not....but I'll watch it, and probably not miss another episode. I have a low opinon of Boyd's show and yet my DVR is programmed to catch every one. I guess I just love cars too much.:)

[kennyd]

Hi All,

Just my two cents, but if you don't want anyone else to inadvertantly (ore otherwise) use the name you applied to your car, just TM it. It does not cost a penny and you will have protected the name from unauthorized use.

thats just what i need , i want to trademark the name for my chevelle . " CHITVELLE"

[SN65]

SNIP...

I'm talking about the people who are only in this hobby to exploite these great cars and get rich off of them. It's the guy who says, "Hey...I'll pay $70,000 for this Chevelle right now because I know in another year someone will give me $30-$40,000 more for it". I have a real big problem with that and not a lot of respect for the people who are guilty of it. How long before all these great cars are in the hands of the wealthy who's only real interest in them is to further their financial gain?

SNIP...
Hi Trapin,

I guess that you are entitled to your opinion, but to me it sounds like so many sour grapes.


:nopity:

"Rich" people can spend their money on whatever they wish. If they want to build a car collection, then so be it. The only reason these cars go up in value is supply and demand. Do you think that the "rich" are to blame for the escalating prices of 60 and 70 muscle cars? If ONLY the "rich" were interested in these cars, they would not be worth squat. It is the interest of the masses that drives the price up.

Also, if you think that the prices are artificially inflated, then I imagine that you would be willing to sell your cars for the going price as they stood in 1978.

This is the same "bitch" that every hobbyist or collector has when he is activly participating in the hobby. BUT, it is amazing how their tune changes when they are selling. They are more than happy to sell at the current prices, even though it is the evil and corrupt "rich" who drove the prices up beyond the affordable level for the common man.

If you want an affordable car, buy an affordable car. There are millions of them out there.

[Steve1968LS2]

"poison dart"

Is not at big of a stretch to come up with.. I could certainly see almost anyone with a Dart coming up with that name..

Now if somebody named thier '69 Camaro "the mule" then I would have to cry shenanigans.. lol

[Steve1968LS2]

Becky, I think you misunderstood me. I wasn't thinking of you, Barry and your business when I was talking about "Oppurtunists". Doing what you love as a means of making a living is totally different. I think that's great. Hell, I would LOVE to do that. I'm talking about the people who are only in this hobby to exploite these great cars and get rich off of them. It's the guy who says, "Hey...I'll pay $70,000 for this Chevelle right now because I know in another year someone will give me $30-$40,000 more for it". I have a real big problem with that and not a lot of respect for the people who are guilty of it. How long before all these great cars are in the hands of the wealthy who's only real interest in them is to further their financial gain?

.:)

Do you feel the same way about anyone that invests in anyting? If I buy property today because I know it will be worth more tomorrow am I just as guilty (since I caused housing prices in general to go up)?

I just see it as part of life.. the popular stuff goes up in value because it's sought after.. the wealthy want what's popular and that causes it to become even more rare and thus more expensive.

However, I would hazzard to guess the the vast majority of musclecars are in the hands of middle class people and the "rich"..

Are we off topic now??? lol

[Damn True]

I think what gripes many people is the "flip this house" mentality that is becoming more prevelant. Most of us are car guys who are building something we have dreamt of for years if not our whole lives.

That "spirit" if you will is in direct opposition to, and is negativly affected by "investors" and those who simply want to have an expensive thing for the sake of having another expensive thing. An Objet d'art.

Sour grapes? Depends on which side of the coin you are on I suppose, but when one's dream is made less attainable by virtue of those who are merely in it for profit clearly, as we see expressed here often, it causes bad feelings.

Personally, I don't begrudge anyone having something they want if they can afford it. If someone can afford to purchase a Suburban and put fuel in it, by all means do so, and pi$$ on any hippie that says otherwise. But, it rubs me wrong when somoene just buys into this "hobby" and dosen't know a damn thing about the car they've bought (other than the amount of the check they wrote) or appreciate the hard work and skill that went into creating it. As big an offense, IMO, if not greater is the guy that buys in, then just pickles the car and never uses it.

[trapin]

Hi Trapin,

I guess that you are entitled to your opinion, but to me it sounds like so many sour grapes.




"Rich" people can spend their money on whatever they wish. If they want to build a car collection, then so be it. The only reason these cars go up in value is supply and demand. Do you think that the "rich" are to blame for the escalating prices of 60 and 70 muscle cars? If ONLY the "rich" were interested in these cars, they would not be worth squat. It is the interest of the masses that drives the price up.

Also, if you think that the prices are artificially inflated, then I imagine that you would be willing to sell your cars for the going price as they stood in 1978.

This is the same "bitch" that every hobbyist or collector has when he is activly participating in the hobby. BUT, it is amazing how their tune changes when they are selling. They are more than happy to sell at the current prices, even though it is the evil and corrupt "rich" who drove the prices up beyond the affordable level for the common man.

If you want an affordable car, buy an affordable car. There are millions of them out there.

See....I told you someone would get offended. And I'm sure he won't be the last to come in here and yell at me. If only they made shoes out of licorice, it wouldn't be so bad putting my foot in my mouth all the time. :razz:

Well...sorry for the "sour grapes" anyway. I have no arguement for what you and Steve said...because you're right. They're just my personal feelings, nothing more.

And again, if anyone else was offended....my apologies.

[Steve1968LS2]

See....I told you someone would get offended. And I'm sure he won't be the last to come in here and yell at me. If only they made shoes out of licorice, it wouldn't be so bad putting my foot in my mouth all the time. :razz:

Well...sorry for the "sour grapes" anyway. I have no arguement for what you and Steve said...because you're right. They're just my personal feelings, nothing more.

And again, if anyone else was offended....my apologies.

And just for the record.. I wasn't offended.. just discussing :)

Welcome to the wonderful world of capitalism.. sometimes it helps life and some times it $%xc#@ it up

[MarkM66]

Watch the show last night. I think it was a re-run, but it was new to me. I like the show. Keep up the good work.

The race at the end seemed a little hokey though. ;)

[trapin]

I have it recorded...will watch tonight.

[ubervic]

I will say this about the show - I have a new favorite!

[hotrodgal]

I think what gripes many people is the "flip this house" mentality that is becoming more prevelant. Most of us are car guys who are building something we have dreamt of for years if not our whole lives.

That "spirit" if you will is in direct opposition to, and is negativly affected by "investors" and those who simply want to have an expensive thing for the sake of having another expensive thing. An Objet d'art.

Sour grapes? Depends on which side of the coin you are on I suppose, but when one's dream is made less attainable by virtue of those who are merely in it for profit clearly, as we see expressed here often, it causes bad feelings.



Personally, I don't begrudge anyone having something they want if they can afford it. If someone can afford to purchase a Suburban and put fuel in it, by all means do so, and pi$$ on any hippie that says otherwise. But, it rubs me wrong when somoene just buys into this "hobby" and dosen't know a damn thing about the car they've bought (other than the amount of the check they wrote) or appreciate the hard work and skill that went into creating it. As big an offense, IMO, if not greater is the guy that buys in, then just pickles the car and never uses it.


Ya know, I really don't care for the guys who buy a car "just because" either. Most of our customers are really into their cars and love to come hang out at the shop...hey, maybe they're just checking on progress, but what the heck, they're involved with their car. For instance, the guy that ended up with the Gangreen Nova took it to BJ in West Palm where it sold to an ex-Nascar driver - he called us and was all excited about owning the car and wanted to know more about it...and then I see it turns up at the Kruse auction in Auburn last month. So to me that's an example of "flipping cars" in the extreme. I think those are the kind of guys none of us like...we look to make a profit because we wouldn't be in business long if we didn't...but these guys are just looking to make a quick buck and don't really care what kind of car it is.

[trapin]

Ya know, I really don't care for the guys who buy a car "just because" either. Most of our customers are really into their cars and love to come hang out at the shop...hey, maybe they're just checking on progress, but what the heck, they're involved with their car. For instance, the guy that ended up with the Gangreen Nova took it to BJ in West Palm where it sold to an ex-Nascar driver - he called us and was all excited about owning the car and wanted to know more about it...and then I see it turns up at the Kruse auction in Auburn last month. So to me that's an example of "flipping cars" in the extreme. I think those are the kind of guys none of us like...we look to make a profit because we wouldn't be in business long if we didn't...but these guys are just looking to make a quick buck and don't really care what kind of car it is.
AMEN!!! :cheers:

By the way...I watched the Gang Green show when I got home from work today (damn I love DVR's). I'll have to admit at first I was like, "What??!! a gasser??!!" Not my cup of tea, but when I saw it coming together I was really amazed by it. And when it was finished I thought it was perhaps the coolest car you guys have done. What a neat car to own...and take the strip every now and then. That was a really great car. Those people at that auction looked a little "stuffy" anyway.

[wickedridz]

To KennyD "Chitvelle" - LOVE the concept. I wish everyone else building cars these days would get it.

[SN65]

You have to be careful in how you "categorize" people. People buy and sell cars all the time. Sometimes they make a profit and other times they don't. Different strokes for different folks.

How many cars have you owned in your lifetime? For me and my wife, our typical daily driver lasts about 10 years or so. Our drivers are bought and driven till they drop.

On the other hand, Fun cars run through my fingers like water. There are really only a few reasons for buying a "fun" car. But there are many more reasons for selling. I don’t like the car any more. I lost interest. I needed the money for something else. I got in over my head and I could not afford to finish the project. I inherited a car that, while cool, was not my cup of tea. And, yes, I have sold a car to make a quick buck.

I have found that, for me, the real fun in any car project is in the planning, design, fabrication, assembly and actual COMPLETION. Driving the car is always fun, but the real rush is in seeing a piece of rotted out crap, that no one else wanted anything to do with, become miraculously transformed into a work of art. That is what the hobby is to me. It is the creation of a sophisticated, electro, mechanical work of art.

Is it not that the same for you? How many of you have ever looked at the amount of time it takes you to really complete a project. It adds up fast. I will bet that most of you spend thousands of hours on your car. You look through catalogs. You talk to vendors. You debate different features of your build on the net. You daydream, contemplate, fantasize, revise, rework, alter, cut, weld, fabricate, wire, plumb, install, on and on. And then, when it is done, how many actual hours do you log….

The reality of it all…

The average commuter logs, give or take, about 10,000 miles per year. Let’s say, for arguments sake, that you average 35 miles per hour during your commute. That comes to 285 hours per year behind the wheel. For me, if I were to drive the SN65 until my wheel time matched the amount of hours invested, I would be driving the car every day for the next 14 years.

That says it all for me. Yes driving our completed creations may be a real thrill, but for me, it is the creative aspect of the hobby that is the real rush. I am the happiest when I am being creative. I will bet that it is the same for all of you.

[trapin]

You have to be careful in how you "categorize" people. People buy and sell cars all the time. Sometimes they make a profit and other times they don't. Different strokes for different folks.

How many cars have you owned in your lifetime? For me and my wife, our typical daily driver lasts about 10 years or so. Our drivers are bought and driven till they drop.

On the other hand, Fun cars run through my fingers like water. There are really only a few reasons for buying a "fun" car. But there are many more reasons for selling. I don’t like the car any more. I lost interest. I needed the money for something else. I got in over my head and I could not afford to finish the project. I inherited a car that, while cool, was not my cup of tea. And, yes, I have sold a car to make a quick buck.

I have found that, for me, the real fun in any car project is in the planning, design, fabrication, assembly and actual COMPLETION. Driving the car is always fun, but the real rush is in seeing a piece of rotted out crap, that no one else wanted anything to do with, become miraculously transformed into a work of art. That is what the hobby is to me. It is the creation of a sophisticated, electro, mechanical work of art.

Is it not that the same for you? How many of you have ever looked at the amount of time it takes you to really complete a project. It adds up fast. I will bet that most of you spend thousands of hours on your car. You look through catalogs. You talk to vendors. You debate different features of your build on the net. You daydream, contemplate, fantasize, revise, rework, alter, cut, weld, fabricate, wire, plumb, install, on and on. And then, when it is done, how many actual hours do you log….

The reality of it all…

The average commuter logs, give or take, about 10,000 miles per year. Let’s say, for arguments sake, that you average 35 miles per hour during your commute. That comes to 285 hours per year behind the wheel. For me, if I were to drive the SN65 until my wheel time matched the amount of hours invested, I would be driving the car every day for the next 14 years.

That says it all for me. Yes driving our completed creations may be a real thrill, but for me, it is the creative aspect of the hobby that is the real rush. I am the happiest when I am being creative. I will bet that it is the same for all of you.
You're right...it is, Bob. But you're essentially sticking up for a catagory of people you are not a part of. You're not an "oppurtunist"....you're a builder, and in my eyes that makes you different from the "car brokers" at Barret Jackson. They buy a car, stick it in the garage, wait a while, and then try to re-sell it for a profit. They're not "car guys"....they're "investors". They don't turn a wrench, bang a knuckle, or so much as change the oil in these cars. They buy them "only" to make money off of them.

You're not a part of their world Bob. I have nothing but complete respect for what you do.

Charley Lilliard is another guy I respect. He collects cars but not necessarily for financial gain. He owns these things because he's passionate about them. Yeah he sells them every now and then....but he's not going through them like Kleenex like some of these guys are. He owns the single most famous g-machine on the planet and instead of keeping it in an oxygen-sensored garage and surrounded by velvet ropes, he's out there tearing up the streets of America every year on Power Tour.

Now THATS a car guy.

[Damn True]

Gotta second what Tony said. Bob, guys like you, Charlie, SW and a few others are not among the group that leaves a bad taste in some of our mouths. (Despite the fact that I gave you a bit of a ration regarding SN65) Guys like you are deeply involved in your cars, the creative process of their creation and have a deep appreciation for the skills of those who build them. I can't count the number of times that Charile has answered questions about details regarding the Mule, Thrasher and Malitude for not only me, but countless others. You guys participate in the hobby, help out people with their projects and are a net benefit to the hobby.

But you guys are in the minority, there are others, sadly far too many, who dont see it the same way. Flipping cars for profit benefits only the flipper and makes things tougher for "regular guys" who are trying to build their dream. Most of those guys dont respect the craft that the builders practice. They dont appreciate the effort. They dont even know the details of the cars they own. Granted, in some cases this kind of guy has the funds to finance true innovation, but the overall result is a negative impact on the hobby and the majority of its participants.

[SN65]

Hi DT,

The "flippers" as you call them, perform a valuable service to the hobby. They keep the hobby in the public eye, they create interest among those outside the hobby and they drive up the price of collectable cars.

I know that you think that higher prices are a bummer, but in actuality higher prices are good for the hobby. As long as the prices are expanding upward, the hobby is healthy. When the prices start to drop, the hobby is in decline.

Trust me on this one. Everybody who has a true concern for the health of the hobby should be happy at the escalating cost for project cars. Yes, if prices start to drop, project cars will become more affordable, but the overall hobby will be suffering.

I think that we should be egging them on. If someone wants to spend 150K on a concourse correct 65 "K" code fastback, more power to them. It is not a car that I would be cutting up anyway. :-)

[Charley Lillard]

LOL...I'm curious if you guys think I have a mechanic here doing all my work for me.

[zbugger]

LOL...I'm curious if you guys think I have a mechanic here doing all my work for me.

You do. It's just that you see him every time you look in the mirror.

[trapin]

LOL...I'm curious if you guys think I have a mechanic here doing all my work for me.
What? No mechanics?

Just get Allen over there...he'll work for peanuts, literally. Even the unsalted ones still in the shell. :wedgie:

[Bill Howell]

I know for a fact Charley had help yesterday!:ssst:



Jason's Dad picked up the back of the mule with the rollback so Charley could crawl under it and change the fuel pump wire.:1st: