Does your a/c really work?

[Dan Sherwood]

Maybe it's just me (or summertime in the Phx area?) but even with dark tinted windows, when it gets in the 90's this vintage a/c unit does'nt put out enough cold air to make driving really comfortable.

Where I actually live in NE Az, the nights are still in the 40's and the heater don't quite cut it either.

Alot of $ for boderline performance IMO!!!!

[TonyL]

are you sure its filled properly? too much or not enough refrigerant can make all the difference.

Does the condenser have adequite airflow?

[camaro608]

hell yah it does i love R-12
but i dont have a vintage air system just stock

[BonzoHansen]

I am not familiar with the vintage system, but does it recirculate the air? If not, the air won't get too cold.

[Yenkostyle]

I had that problem when in FL on one of my cars (67 Camaro) and found out that if I sealed all the holes that go through the firewall it made a world of difference. You wouldnt think that a few little holes for wires and such would rob that much cool air but in my case it did.

Just food for thought. Good luck!

[Jagarang]

I'll let you know soon I hope. I got the Supercooler which Frank has tried to wedge between the trans tunnel we modded for the 4L80E and the under dash air unit.

To quote Frank...

"Heres the pics of the BIG UGLY M F'ER"

I hangs below the dash and is as ugly as my old chow chows starfish, but it's a sacrifice we decided to make for function. I've heard the same cooling complaints with the compact units and decided to give up some foot space and aesthetics for what we hope will be adequate cooling performance. I live in Florida also, and don't relish the thought of spontaneous human EVAPORATION!

[Dan Sherwood]

Mine is a

[Dan Sherwood]

Mine is a compact unit, and I believe all the items mentioned have been checked, but I'm getting ready to do it again.

Certainly not impressive at this point.

[jamesg602]

Do you have the surefit Kit? I am also a local with the surefit kit (68 Camaro in progress) and the thought of a $1K system not blowing cold is a bit worrysome...:ssst:

[ProTouring442]

We put one of the Vintage-Air units in my Mom's '57, and frankly it couldn't keep up. I think the evaparator is too small. When we built my Dad's '57, we used an evaparator from a GM A-Body so it would be nice and large. This didn't leave a nice claen firewall, but it sure blows cold!

Shiny Side Up!
Bill

[Alan Johnson]

Maybe it's just me (or summertime in the Phx area?) but even with dark tinted windows, when it gets in the 90's this vintage a/c unit does'nt put out enough cold air to make driving really comfortable.

Where I actually live in NE Az, the nights are still in the 40's and the heater don't quite cut it either.

Alot of $ for boderline performance IMO!!!!

The compact unit may have trouble initially cooling the car but should catch up within minutes. Normally in a car that size , a super cooler is over kill when at highway speeds and the interior is at the desired temperature. It will cool the car faster to start with and cool better at an idle but you will have to turn it down to a comfortable level. What are you using for a condenser? The condenser should be sized to the unit. Is the condenser mounted properly? It should have 1/2" to 3/4" of space between the condenser and radiator. Are the lines entering and exiting the condenser properly? Does it cool better at highway speeds than sitting still? As others have already stated any open holes should be filled and the correct amount of refrigerant should be installed. Have you installed any insulation in the car? No matter what size correctly working a/c unit you have it can't compensate for a lack of insulation. We have had good results with Dynamat and Lizard skin. The Dynamat is much heavier and does a better job of sound insulation. The Lizard skin is very light, does a great job as a heat barrier but doesn't do as well in sound dampening. We normally spend more on insulation than what the complete a/c system costs. I have had no problems with Vintage Air systems .Hope this helps

[73z-6sp]

I had the super cooler in my 73. I wanted it to COOL. Granted I never took it on looong drives but 30-40 miles and it never got my car cold. It was definitely better than no air, especially in the AZ desert, but Im not sure you can always beat the heat here. It just gets too hot!

[zuess4u]

James, Dan....I am also a local...or we I should say representing the Paradise Valley High school 67 project.

Without re-naiming the brand you purchased...for fear of being called a basher.....

we have done exstensive research....lol and have found many alternatives...maybe be better performers....

The company we are considering at the momment is based out of Florida. They run seperate coils in their units, which one is for heating and the other is for cooling.....most other companys use one coil for both. Though we have not tried this unit yet...I have a feeling it may perform better.

I will post up here tommorow with a little comparrison and the name of the company.

I just hope it doesnt get deleted... but yes there are alternatives...to all the companies that spend a lot of money on advertising.

[USAZR1]

I have a VA Gen II set-up in my 69 and it doesn't cool the car like I want,either. However,to be fair,my car right now has little to no insulation,especially on the firewall,and that is almost certainly the problem. As soon as I can get my new Arizen seats installed,I'm going to insulate & sound-deaden the whole interior which should make a huge difference.

[TonyL]

just hope it doesnt get deleted...

Posting of alternitaves to our sponsers is allowed, if asked for. I wont delete the info. it is illegal for the vendor you are referring to to post info or ads HIMSELF. or posing as someone else asking about his product. (we can tell.)

Out of respect for the sponsers that make this board possible, just do not post pricing info. Let the member find out pricing on his own.

[ProdigyCustoms]

It is usually insulation and seal void issues. we have done straight installs in otherwise stock cars and they do not work as well as our foiled / FatMated / insulated builds. We have had the opportunity to install a couple other brands, none are better then another in stock applications.

Clint is correct, pad the firewall, seal all the voids, and things will improve to the best they can with the size evaporator that will fit

[zuess4u]

Posting of alternitaves to our sponsers is allowed, if asked for. I wont delete the info. it is illegal for the vendor you are referring to to post info or ads HIMSELF. or posing as someone else asking about his product. (we can tell.)

Out of respect for the sponsers that make this board possible, just do not post pricing info. Let the member find out pricing on his own.

Wasnt trying to be a butthole yesterday, just didnt want anyone getting upset.

So then here goes: I spoke with one of the owners of Classic Auto Air yesterday. I also did a random call to a tech, and sales person. Just asking general questions. This is my way of doing a small screnning of what to exspect in the cutomer service department.

Anyway, I approached Classic Auto Air for a sponsorship for our high school project. In that discussion Al, explained to me some of the differences between them and the other companies, if it wasnt a pitch (Idont thoink it was) the differences are night and day.

I then explained to him some of the problems people are having with the other brand. He said they get people all day long complaining and looking for an alternative. I told him about the web site, and asked him if they would be interested in doing a GP.

Al, stated they did do a GP on Chevelles.com and got 35 orders in one month..and only had one complaint on an install, (read directions).

Bottom line is.......visit their site, call and research, compare the unit your looking at to Classic Auto Air....Im almost certain you will decide to go with one of their systems. They REALLY have been in the business for 29 years.

Keep this thread going, and when the time is good I will activate the GP for yall.

P.S. also let them know what site you read this thread from.

[Chris442]

Dan, I know it's not just you. I was out driving my '69 442 yesterday, and it would just not get that cool. I have a Supercooler on it. Now, I have no tint and the car is a convertible, so that doesn't help. I think that I might be a touch overcharged though, since it seems to blow colder at idle than when I am on the freeway. Even on new cars, if it hits 110 the AC just doesn't work that great; I guess just the price we pay for winters here in Phoenix.

zuess4u, sounds like a nice high school project car. I went to a regional rival a few years back, and our autoshop amounted to work on your own car using your own money at your house for no credit. I spent many afternoons when I was in high school working on my 442. These days I am helping my Dad build up a '68 Camaro, so I'm interested to see what the results will be with the AC in your '67.

[KUL FIR CHICK N]

An A/C system works by removing heat from the cabin via the evaporator, and dumping it outside via the condenser. In order for the system to cool the vehicle, it must remove the heat from the interior faster than the heat is entering. Heat load is composed of engine heat passing through the firewall and floor pan either by conduction or convection, heat from the roof and doors passing through the headliner and door panels, air leaks through your door seals, convertible top, or any other holes in the car, especially the firewall, and sun load through your windows. Air leaks are especially hard on the system because they bring in humidity, which increases the load even more. This is why it is manditory that you insulate and seal the car before installing the air.

Separate coils don't have anything to do with cooling capacity of the system but in some designs they have an advantage. Dual coils are advantageous in a "re-heat" system like almost all current production vehicles. A re-heat system passes all flow through the evaporator first, then diverts some of the cooled air through the heater coil, and the rest bypasses the heater alltogether. This allows you to change temperature instantly with the temp. blend door. Re-heat systems also flow more air in A/C mode because the restriction of the heater coil is removed. The capacity is determined by the size of the coil and the air flow volume through the coil. Assuming you have a large enough compressor, and condenser, and enough air flow through the condenser, and the proper charge, the larger unit (combined coil size and air flow) will always win. The compac was designed to fit in a car where a supercooler will not. You always want to choose the largest evaporator you can fit. Most aftermarket evaporators are tube and fin construction, which is old technology but offers the advantage of being able to be configured in shapes not available with the newer plate and fin technology. This is why they are used in the Gen 2 series evaporators, which are combined heat/cool coils and are shaped to fit in tight spaces. The best (most efficient) evaporator designs currently available are plate-fin designs, which are used in all current production vehicles.

If your Camaro is properly sealed, insulated, installed, and charged, the Compac should be able to cool your vehicle, but a sure-fit system has a larger coil and higher air flow. I have tested the other mentioned system, and it has about the same air flow as the Compac, but they divide it among four vents, which will make them feel weak.

The Vintage Air "Gen 4" systems are re-heat systems, all electronic with no cables or vacuum, and utilize a plate-fin evaporator and a brazed brass heater.

By the way, Vintage Air listens to all your concerns and is constantly working to improve all of OUR products. If you have a VA system and are having issues, call the tech line, or if you are still not satisfied, PM me.

Ryan

[justanova]

are the gen 4 systems listed on your website? or are they a new product?

The reason I ask is I am about to make an order with one of va's vendors for a system for my 70 chev. impala, which is a big car and I'm going to paint it black and I live in arizona. If the gen 4 would be a better choice then I may need to change my order.

Also I have considered doing a dual ac system like putting another one in the trunk to cool the rear seat passengers, what would I have to do to do something like that?

I am replacing all the weatherstripping and I plan on using dynamat extreme because I will also be doing a custom stereo install.

[ProdigyCustoms]

For you guy's wanting Classic Air, over at GP Store there is a wanted Group Purchase about to go to active GP. If you are interested, come over and let us know.

http://gpsuperstore.com/forum/showthread.php?t=142

[Bill Howell]

A couple things here. The A/C on the goat is a mixture of parts. I retained the Factory dash unit, and everything on the firewall to keep the large evaporater. Then used a LS1 style compressor and Griffen custom condenser. Today is the first day I have needed the A/C here but it worked like a champ. However, it is a 65 convert, so many air leaks, and a black top will probably tax it in the summer.
Just something to try, I have never used the vintage air stuff but found this problem on many cars I have owned. So maybe this could be an issue. Be sure that water is not flowing thru the heater core. Just plug it temporarily and see if that helps. If hot water is in the heater core, the system is working against itself. This may be a long shot, but try it, cheap and easy to do and may help.

[TUBED]

Napa and other parts houses sell a shutoff valve that fits inline (heater hose) on the inlet side of the heater core. What Bill has stated above does make a considerable difference in the summer time heat.
Gerald

[rockdogz]

Doesn't the electronic shut-off valve (at least there was one in the VA kit that I used) keep hot water from entering the evaporator unless the heat is turned on?

[KUL FIR CHICK N]

Good point , Bill.

Tom,

It is common for installers to have the heater valve installed backwards or in the wrong hose, which will allow it to leak past the seat. Also, though not as common, I have seen dirty coolant systems jam or damage the valve with rust and other debris.

If you touch the fittings coming out of the unit when the valve is closed, they should both be the same temp and relatively cool. If they are both hot, you have a bad leak past the valve. If one is cooler than the other, you have a slow leak through the valve.

If the duct temp warms up when you run the engine rpm up, you have a leaking valve.

When the car cools well while parked, then warms up while cruising or on the highway, its probably leaky door seals or holes in the firewall.

Ryan

[KUL FIR CHICK N]

The gen 4 systems are currently available for '55-57 Chev. cars, and '68-76 Corvette. Many other applications are coming soon.

[justanova]

The gen 4 systems are currently available for '55-57 Chev. cars, and '68-76 Corvette. Many other applications are coming soon.

can you give me the dimensions on the gen4? I might have enough room under the dash of my impala for it.

Making brackets doesnt matter to me because I have to make them anyway for my 70 impala.

Also what is the price diff. between the gen 2 supercooler and the gen 4?

[ProdigyCustoms]

Also what is the price diff. between the gen 2 supercooler and the gen 4?

I have a killer deal on a supercooler Jagarang ordered for his Firebird, and it won't fit. I can set you up with everything else also.

Frank

[justanova]

I have a killer deal on a supercooler Jagarang ordered for his Firebird, and it won't fit. I can set you up with everything else also.

Frank

you have a pm

[Dan Sherwood]

Interesting info from Bill and the chicken fried guy from vintage. I read it today, and it seems to confirm what we discovered yesterday.

My car has ALOT of dynamat. Holes in firewall are all plugged up. Windows tinted much darker than I would really like. When Idling yesterday in the shop in Phx, the air was somewhat cool. They had just worked over an issue with the lack of volume through the passenger side vents. I went out to take it for a drive and noticed when I got on it, the air coming out the vents warmed up considerably. The shop has determined that the electric valve is stuck part way open, thus running warm water partially through which then won't let the unit either heat or cool properly.

This seems to have been the culprit for the last 20 months? I guess it adds to my frustration on this vintage unit. I am now on control panel #3, which has come apart twice. The controls for the 69 camaro are just plain idiotic to figure out as you have to play with them to see which way to set them for hot/cold as they are not clear by looking at them. Trying to deal directly with vintage air is an excersize in frustration in customer support and getting parts!!! And when you finally figure out what the problem is, guess what--YOU'RE OUT OF FRIGGEN WARRANTY, so you get to spend some more $ to make the unit right like it should have been to start with.

Gripes my fricken bunny...and chicken!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[73z-6sp]

I feel your pain man. I have had some less than stellar customer service too. One guy was outright mean! But, I have learned to expect it in todys society. (Whole other issue there!) Hopefully now that you figured out the culprit it will work perfectly for you. It is definitely hot here now huh? Ouch...I long for winter!

[Bill Howell]

Bad news is you will have to buy a part or two. The great news is, once you correct the problem, the unit you have now should do the job, and you are not looking at replacing the whole thing. Personally I would rather replace the bad part, at my expense than to have to incorporate a new, different style unit into a together car, even if they gave me the newer unit. Just me.

[Dan Sherwood]

Well there is a little bit of silver lining.

First, although located in Az, and my shop that works on it is in the Phx area, I live in ne Az (Pinetop) that is typically 75-85 in the summer, instead of 105-115. I do as little driving in Phx in the summer as possible.

Second, yes it is better to have to just replace the part (I've already had to replce the unit under the dash once), so that will hopefully simplify it, but doggone it, would'nt a really good company send you the part at no charge? And of course in a perfect world, they'd cover the labor charge to boot.

Just dreamin I guess???????????????

[Bill Howell]

would'nt a really good company send you the part at no charge? And of course in a perfect world, they'd cover the labor charge to boot.

Just dreamin I guess???????????????

Not in my experience. Warrenty time is just that, no one can warrent a part forever. There is always the arguement of when the part went bad, how old is the part, etc. In a perfect world, the part would never go bad. I think if I were you, now that you have found the problem, take this up with them directly or with whomever you bought it from. Who knows, since honey goes further than vinegar, explaining the whole story to someone might at least get you a break on the part. That works for me anyway, most the time.

[ssx]

I have the sure fit Vintage Air kit in my 68'. It doesn't blow as cold as I would like, but does okay. Seems to blow better through the side vents and less through the middle ones??? Talked to my friend who has a system in his 57' Belair with LS1/6spd etc. He is not real happy with the systems performance either. But who knows, it gets really hot here in Hawaii? I am also thinking about changing out the control panel (currently hooked in to the factory controls).

[Dan Sherwood]

Bill-I agree that sugar will catch mre flies than mustard. Did not seem to matter with vintage, neither flavor seemed to do much. I would end up calling dse where i purchased the unit, and my guy there seemed to have better luck than I some of the time in getting something out of them. Stll very frustrating.

My center vents don't have much volume out of them either, and until last week the pasenger side vent was'nt that great.

At this point, the unit would probably cool ok up here in 75-85 degrees, but in Phx at 115, I think not.

[jamesg602]

oops!

[jamesg602]

Bill-I agree that sugar will catch mre flies than mustard. Did not seem to matter with vintage, neither flavor seemed to do much. I would end up calling dse where i purchased the unit, and my guy there seemed to have better luck than I some of the time in getting something out of them. Stll very frustrating.

My center vents don't have much volume out of them either, and until last week the pasenger side vent was'nt that great.

***At this point, the unit would probably cool ok up here in 75-85 degrees, but in Phx at 115, I think not.***

Man sounds like I might need to get away from this heat or only drive my car during the winter months. How good does your heater work? I know the winters are much cooler in Pinetop than here in the Valley of the Sun. :hmm:

[Dan Sherwood]

Ok guys- I wanted to give an update on my a/c.

First off, let me give props where props are due. Mr. Ryan Zwicker from Vintage Air has been trying to contact me for awhile and we finally spoke today as I arrived at the shop working on the car in the Phx area.
New electronic valve in place, and seems to work much better. It only got in the low 90's while I was there (very unusual for Phx this time of year) but it cooled the car the best it ever has. I have my doubts that anything over 100 degrees will work as well as I would like, but a definite improvment!
I will have the car back down there next week, and we will see what progress we've made when it's well over 100 degrees.

[Bill Howell]

Sounds like good news to me Dan.

100*, sounds like you need a new zip code not new a/c......lol


Trouble with any a/c in an older car, other variables play into the mix. Most older cars do not have the proper insulation, are not as airtight, and just were never meant to be a creature friendly as we have grown to expect these days. If you can change the inside temp by 30* in the hot summer, that is pretty good for any a/c. Now, if you start out with 110* that is still 80*, but much better anyway. I am glad to hear Vintage Air went the extra mile to make you happy. I am also glad you gave us the update, complimenting them.:grouphug:

[Mark Smith]

I had a sure fit unit in a 55 second series truck i built a couple of years ago.upon install I did have some kind of issue with wiring from the factory.called customer service and the tech talked me thru eveything as I hung upside down inder the dash.va recommended to pre test everything on a bench prior to install.I got in a rush and didnt do so.I to live in florida and the va unit didnt really do real great but with a little better insulation in the cab might have been alright?I also have a 70 chevy truck with an old under the dash hang on unit with r 12 and that bad boy will freeze you out even with limited insulation.currently building 69 camaro and after seeing this thread I am curious as to which unit i should go with.

[KUL FIR CHICK N]

Hey Guys,

Our President, Jack Chisenhall, will be in Phoenix tomorrow evening, 6-13, at the So Cal Speed Shop for the Street Rodder Road Tour. If anyone would like to stop by and talk A/C, you're welcome to drop by and get a few pointers on how to extract the most from your A/C system.

By now the temps should be up there and we know you guys could use all the help you can get staying cool.

Ryan Zwicker
Vintage Air, Inc.

[Dan Sherwood]

Hey Ryan;

It's been several weeks since we talked, but I wanted to give you and update.
I have gone through and sealed up any holes I could see in the firewall. I also used up my remaining pieces of heat reflection material under the front two floorboards, which helped some.
After driving the car in Phx at anything over 100 degrees, the a/c unit just does'nt get it done.
Thankfully I don't live there, but trying to get cool there in the summertime in this car just is'nt going to happen as it currently is.
If you are coming to Phx in the next month or so, let me know and maybe you can take a look at it and see what can be done? Thx!

[Damn True]

Dan,

I still don't know if I will even use AC, but I read all these threads anyway so that when I make my final decision it will be as educated as possible. That said, regarding your car I am wondering if when you redid your car, if the insulation (such as it is) was removed from the overhead? I know it would involve pulling the headliner to do it, but perhaps a layer of dynamat on the inside of the roof might mitigate some of the heat intrusion. If you haven't already done that I mean.

[esc1]

My beater Blazer has no roof insulation or a headliner, while my '95 ext. cab has the factory insulation and headliner. Both are black, so maybe this thursday or friday I can put both in the sun and get everyone a comparison. It is supposed to be 95 and sunny.

[Larry Callahan]

Hey Ryan;

It's been several weeks since we talked, but I wanted to give you and update.
I have gone through and sealed up any holes I could see in the firewall. I also used up my remaining pieces of heat reflection material under the front two floorboards, which helped some.
After driving the car in Phx at anything over 100 degrees, the a/c unit just does'nt get it done.
Thankfully I don't live there, but trying to get cool there in the summertime in this car just is'nt going to happen as it currently is.
If you are coming to Phx in the next month or so, let me know and maybe you can take a look at it and see what can be done? Thx!

Dan, you might have better luck with Vintage Air if you would return their calls and contact them directly. I believe they have made multiple attempts to contact you including leaving a message with you. I also understand that you have Ryan's work and cell numbers. They have offered to fly out and and look into your problem and your posting makes the public think they are not helping or trying to take care of the problem. Vintage Air is trying to help. Please let them.

[ss dave]

I"ve been thinking of an a/c unit for my 69 camaro vert. as a winter project and have been following this thread along with a few others to make a decision on which one. Larry if what you say above is true, and I have no doubt it is, I know which one I want. That's great service. Maybe Ryan can fly to Wichita this winter and install it for me! Ryan?

[ItsA68]

Whats the ETA on the Gen 4 system for 1st gen Camaro's?