sequential shift tranny [Archive]

CraigMorrison

05-19-2006, 05:06 AM

So we got our new issue of RacecarEngineering magazine and found a really, really cool product http://www.proshift.co.uk/ . It's an aftermarket paddle-shift setup for manual transmissions. The only drawback is that it requires a sequential shift transmission. So the question of the day: is there a sequential shift transmission out there that will bolt up to a small / big block Chevy? Yes, there is the clutchless Liberty for $7500+, but are there any others? Thanks!

ProdigyCustoms

05-19-2006, 05:09 AM

We are putting together a project now that will use one, trans is $20k.

CraigMorrison

05-19-2006, 05:12 AM

that's kind of what I was afraid of. Do I need to plan on selling a few organs to pull this thing off or are other options?

jeff s

05-19-2006, 05:40 AM

Quaife make's em $5200-6300.
Saenz, others too, can't think of em right now.

BB69

05-19-2006, 06:41 AM

Xtrac makes them out of the UK.

http://www.xtrac.com/mainindex.htm

Big dollars as well though. Kennedy Engineering may be able to help with an adaptor to mate a V8 to any number of transmissions.

http://www.kennedyeng.com/

They specialize in VW and Porsche stuff, but since the dune buggy scene has moved to LS1 and Northstar V8 engines, they now make adaptors for those engines as well.

Mendeola in California also makes sequential boxes, but they actually transaxles, meant for mid/rear engine vehicles. They also specialize in off road, so the power levels they can handle on the street are a lot lower.

Good luck.
Ken

ProdigyCustoms

05-19-2006, 06:55 AM

A Quaife that will handle ant real horsepower and torque is WAY more then $5000

USAZR1

05-19-2006, 07:17 AM

A Quaife that will handle any real horsepower and torque is WAY more then $5000

Yeah,,around $15K.

CraigMorrison

05-19-2006, 07:38 AM

I just checked out the Quaife America site and their 6-speed Viper trans (sequential) goes for around 16k less bellhousing. For the budget minded, their H pattern 5-speed is a mere 10K.

Mean 69

05-19-2006, 08:18 AM

Before you get too deep into this idea, I'd sincerely suggest calling the folks that make these and tell them what you intend to use the trans for. No question, they are cool, but keep in mind these are RACE transmissions, and contrary to what many people sometimes think, RACE means NO GOOD FOR STREET.

I spoke to the guys from Quaife at SEMA, having the same idea (although no paddle shift for me), and one of the big concerns was the ability to keep the trans in a particular gear. They use straight cut (you HAVE to, no such thing as a helical sequential), and if you are not on the power, or brakes (i.e. loading the trans), some funny thing can occur, per them.

And yes, they aren't cheap, and the unit you pointed out for the Viper cars is the minimum you'd need for a high torque motor. I won't be using one for the street car, but the race car we plan on building after the three projects we have underway will without question get one.

Mark

trackrat79

05-19-2006, 09:21 AM

I was not looking at a sequential box but I was considering strait cut gears in a standard H pattern. DO you still have to worry about problems on the street. When you say you need to keep the tranny under heavy load I am guessing that a sequential tranny has a tendancy to change gears un expectedly if you float the rpms. Is this right or is it something else.

ProdigyCustoms

05-19-2006, 10:27 AM

THX 138

05-19-2006, 10:35 AM

so the point of this is to find a sequential mechanical shift tranny verses the hydraulic automatic tranny style?

andrewb70

05-19-2006, 11:02 AM

Holinger (http://www.holinger.com.au/index.php) from Australia is another option, but it too is very expensive. Somewhere around 18K as I recall. Craig keep in mind that even sequential gear boxes need a way to take a slight load off the input shaft in order get it out of one gear and into another.

If you look at this picture:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

you will see that the shift knob has wires. These wires are hooked to the engine management system. The shifter handle actually has an adjustable strain gauge built into it. So when the driver pulls or pushes on the handle, there is a signal sent to the ECU that cuts the ignition for a very short time (milliseconds). This stutters the engine just long enough to make the shift. This will work in a similar fashion with the pro-shift system.
The Liberty 5 speed while being clutchless is not really a sequential gear box. It has a vertical gate shifter and it can only be shifted up, not down. So it is made specifically for drag racing.

Andrew

Steve Chryssos

05-19-2006, 11:50 AM

Paddle shifted sequential manual transmission for hot rods? Yeah sure. Piece of cake. No Problema.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Elusive R

05-19-2006, 11:52 AM

Paddle shifted sequential manual transmission for hot rods? Yeah sure. Piece of cake. No Problema.

I was starting to think the same thing, but then I had visions of my controls classes and some very large dollar signs that just said "forget about it....."

Maybe someday???

Ryan

andrewb70

05-19-2006, 12:16 PM

Paddle shifted sequential manual transmission for hot rods? Yeah sure. Piece of cake. No Problema.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Its only that complicated if you have to use the clutch.

Andrew

Steve Chryssos

05-19-2006, 12:32 PM

Not Quite. Clutch and paddle shifter require mechatronic control of engine load, wheel speed and brakes. But you are correct in that the equation gets way easier if you retain a clutch operated by a human.

andrewb70

05-19-2006, 12:35 PM

With a racing sequential gear box like the one from Holinger the clutch is only used for taking off and when the car needs to stop. The clutch is not used at all during the upshifts or the downshifts.

The diagram that you posted applies to applications like the Aston Martin (and many others). Where a synchonized T56 is used in conjunction with a host of hydraulics to activate the clutch while shifting.

Then there is ZeroShift (http://www.zeroshift.com/)...

Andrew

Steve Chryssos

05-19-2006, 12:45 PM

The diagram that you posted applies to applications like the Austin Martin (and many others). Where a synchonized T56 is used in conjunction with a host of hydraulics to activate the clutch while shifting.

...Uhh you mean like a hot rod driven on the street?

Hidro

05-19-2006, 02:09 PM

Its not a sequential trans but has anyone seen one of these sequential shifters? http://www.renagate.com/

-Ed

CraigMorrison

05-19-2006, 03:56 PM

Paddle shifted sequential manual transmission for hot rods? Yeah sure. Piece of cake. No Problema.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

If this is a piece of cake, can I have a slice?

Steve- thanks for the call, Mark thanks for sharing the discussion with Quaife, Frank let us know how it goes.......

After hearing the ins and outs and seeing this diagram, I guess I can see why Divers (Tim Divers Street Rods) decided to forgo the paddle shift option on the Ferrari drive-trained Rambler wagon. Also sounds (from conversation with Steve) like auto/Shrifter combo is a WHOLE LOT LESS hassle and definitely the way to go if you are looking for to paddle shift. What turned out to be a casual thought over coffee turned out to be a pretty informative. Thanks guys!

andrewb70

05-20-2006, 02:09 PM

...Uhh you mean like a hot rod driven on the street?

I am not sure that I follow you.

If you are saying that adapting a system like the one used in the Austin Martin to a Hot Rod is a monumental task, then I whole heartedly agree. Although the other day I was reading in Grassroots Motorsports that there is a Paraplegic driver running in the NASA AI series and her car has been outfitted with the Aston Martin T56 and everything taht is needed to make the paddle shifting functional. There are probably thousands and thousands of hours that were spent on programming the system to work as flawlessly as you would expect in a $225K car.

Andrew

kp.touring

05-20-2006, 03:04 PM

Bob Johnson

05-20-2006, 03:16 PM

As I said, it's $20k, actually a tick north, i just rounded numbers, been to school, got a tee shirt, LOL! If things go as planed, we may be doing this soon, very soon, so we may very well be the test dummy.
I looked into the sequential trans when I was figuring out what trans to use in the Cuda. They just don't like to be shifted at low RPM and throttle..plus they are noiser than all get out. Not counting expensive to start with and also repairing them. I nixxed the idea. Doug Cooper has been looking into them for the Camaro he's wanting to build..

CraigMorrison

05-20-2006, 05:49 PM

Craig,
We are building a 69 Vette with Quaffe sequential 6 speed and an aluminum, injected big block. It was 5 1/2 months to get and all most 20k. Also it not a bolt up it the trans was designed for racing Vipers.

Kevin
Campbell Auto Restoration [CAR]

Kevin- Thanks for the imput. Hey, has there been any press releases on this car.......it's ringing a bell or maybe :smoke: ...Is it being done like a LaMans racer?

Steve Chryssos

05-20-2006, 08:14 PM

I am not sure that I follow you.
Andrew

Just referring back to Craig's original post. I want to distinguish betwen race applications and street applications. Craig inquired about a paddle shifted manual trans for a street car. Craig's application (a hot rod) requires all of the electronics in my diagram. Your statements regarding race car sequential transmissions are all accurate.

That bad ass race car sequential equipment is fairly useless for paralell parking and K-Turns

We are in agreement.

andrewb70

05-20-2006, 10:05 PM

We are in agreement.

I know...:smoke:

Andrew

zbugger

05-20-2006, 10:59 PM

..... I was reading in Grassroots Motorsports that there is a quadraplegic driver running in the NASA AI series and her car has been outfitted with the Austin Martin T56 and....

Are you sure you don't mean Paraplegic? I'd love to see a quad driving a car.....

andrewb70

05-21-2006, 07:28 AM

Are you sure you don't mean Paraplegic? I'd love to see a quad driving a car.....

DUUUHHHHH...

Thanks for pointing that out. I edited myself...LOL

Andrew

jeff s

05-21-2006, 06:47 PM

Hollinger was the one I couldn't think of. Ron Adee had one of those in his Carbon Fiber Dodge Ram One Lap truck. I road shotgun around Road America with him for 20 minutes. Really a sweet box. Like Andrew said, only used the clutch to take off, just bumped the lever up or down everywhere else.

andrewb70

05-21-2006, 07:57 PM

Matt

05-21-2006, 09:51 PM

Aside from the cool factor it boils down to 'you really don't want one'. If you want the cool factor go with the shrifter.

Also straight cut gears are indeed very very noisy, I had what amounted to a half-dog box on my last car (I had a helluva time keeping a tranny together) and it was damn near deafening.

But...If you still want one....
Holinger does have a system that should work as they use Holinger boxes on the Monaro (which, despite details, is still an SBC).

Oh, and it's ASTON Martin, not Austin martin...sigh.

andrewb70

05-22-2006, 04:47 AM

Oh, and it's ASTON Martin, not Austin martin...sigh.

What can I say...English is my second language. :dunno:

Andrew

customcam

05-22-2006, 03:11 PM

thers also a company called Gertrag
Craig hows the Corvette coming along was at ur site but its in lock down mode lol

jeff s

05-22-2006, 07:36 PM

I bet the sequential box is worth 2-3 seconds per lap at Road America and a lot easier.

CraigMorrison

05-23-2006, 05:41 AM

thers also a company called Gertrag
Craig hows the Corvette coming along was at ur site but its in lock down mode lol

The Vette is now at the paint shop. It's in good company....a 300SL Mercedes gullwing and Ferrari's first Testarosa, built in 1956 (serial number 666). The Ferrari is getting color this week and then the bondo starts flying on our ride.

The password file is pics of the car with all the trim, tires & wheels, brakes, roll-hoops etc. in place. I needed a place to host the pics to show the magazine dudes, sponsors, industry friends etc.

We should get the car back sometime in July and start with assembly. Can't wait the car is going to be killer.

Matt

05-23-2006, 05:50 AM

Wow... wow... those are some amazing cars. You're a man of taste.

I can host all the files for ya.. PM me and we'll figure it out.

customcam

05-23-2006, 03:38 PM

Do we get a sneek peek?:lol:

CraigMorrison

05-24-2006, 05:39 AM

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2006/05/DSC02302vi-1.jpg

Here's the teazer pic.......
The roll hoop(s) bolt into a cage structure that straddles the gas tank. Note: Windshield posts have been modified to remove wing window notch - car is a true roadster, no side glass. Custom aluminum console, dash is being painted and gauge pod has been wrapped in carbon fiber.

Now for the meat and po-ta-toes:
All aluminum 427 Mitchell engine w/FAST fuel injection
T56- 6 speed prepped by Rockland Standard
our chassis, C5 front tri 4-bar rear, 15:1 R&P
18" wheels 265 / 295 Michelin Pilot Sport Cup Tires
14" Wilwood brakes
Strange Engineering adjustable coil-overs

Top of the windshield to ground 45" Top of door 29.5"

Will make its debut at the K&N booth at SEMA

Mean 69

05-24-2006, 07:04 AM

Yep, that's low. I just measured my wife's 62 door height, it's about 36". That car is stock. For now.

The hoop is a really good idea, driving our car is pretty scary with no seat belts, and you sit WAY high in it, very uneasy feeling. Plus, it has to be the absolute worst handling car I have ever driven in my entire life, bar none, even though everything is completely functional as it came from the factory. Doesn't matter though, it's a 62 vette, and that makes it darn near as cool as it gets.

Cool project.
M

CraigMorrison

05-24-2006, 07:20 AM

The 60 was a driver when we bought it. Art drove it once and that was it, but hey I was a young guy and the early Vette's are chickmagnet material so I drove it quite a bit. Man what a handfull! Crappy steering, bad brakes, terrible suspension. It's surprising that more didn't die driving these things. But like you said, they look cool.

The best comment I ever got while cruising: The hood had some paint that was bubbling on it due to a bad repair job. Older guy looks at that and says "Man, it looks like you have some rust that's ready to come through your paint." :hammer:

PS- we are going to raise the car up 1.5", which will give us 4" under the lowest part of the chassis.

customcam

05-24-2006, 04:10 PM

wow thanks Craig you guys build awsome cars!!
cant wait to see the 54' also

CraigMorrison

05-26-2006, 05:46 AM

Last night on the F1 warm-up show they talked about F1's transmissions and how they work. Pretty cool - only a mere 125,000 euros for a gearbox ($159,500) and I am sure that's w/o the electronics. Having had a chance to see one in person, I thought they would be more than this (the machine work on the billet titanium case was amazing)