E - 85

[jdub396]

Anyone running E - 85 in their carb. higher comp. motors? I think this stuff is 100 octane, but not sure how it would work? Just a thought...

[ProStreet R/T]

Going to do some testing with it shortly, but from what I have seen it works great. Need to run the car a bit richer than with regular pump fuel but no real down sides. And yes you can run higher compression and/or a lot more boost with no adverse effects.

[jdub396]

cool....I figured a jet change, any spark plug changes I wonder??

[homerneedspeed]

your fuel systerem has to be alcohol compatable including lines, fittings and the needle/seats in the carb. i have also read that the needle/seat neds to be larger which all alcohol ones are.

[ProStreet R/T]

your fuel systerem has to be alcohol compatable including lines, fittings and the needle/seats in the carb. i have also read that the needle/seat neds to be larger which all alcohol ones are.

no no NO NO NO IT DOES NOT!!! I don't know where you guys are getting this misinformation but you could not be more wrong. It's ETHANOL, NOT METHANOL. They are VERY different, methanol is highly corrosive and requires all the special stuff. An 85% ethanol mix will be just fine on stock fuel system components, as has been proven by people running it for quite some time now.

Yes you need to rejet the car but not to rull meth specs.


Please people, do a little research before you stick your foot in your mouth.

[Beeper]

Foot removal tool. (http://www.e85fuel.com/index.php)

[68Formula]

http://www.deh.gov.au/atmosphere/fuelquality/publications/review-vehicle-fleet/chapter6.html

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/consumer/fuels/altfuels/420f00035.pdf

Ethanol, not as corrosive as Methanol, but it still will attack plain steels, copper, brass, and some elastomers much more aggresively than normal gasoline.

[ProStreet R/T]

Curious has anyone bothered to look up the corrosion properties on CH3OH vs CH3CH2OH ? I don't have my materials books handy right now, but I can tell you from memory it's a pretty drastic difference, and thats at 99.9%. Factor in the 15% fuel mixture, and considering they are using a less than pure ethanol to begin with and you will find it's hardly as corrosive as everyone is making it out to be.

When I get back to work and have my desk reference i'll post the hard figures.

But I can say from REAL WORLD TESTS that after letting various rubber parts (hoses, diaphrams, injector O-rings, fuel lines, aluminum fittings) soak, fully submerged, in a sealed container (to prevent water obsorbtion as much as possible) for going on 60 days now, there is no discernable degregation in material structure. Yes it's more corrosive than regular petroleum fuel, but the rate of corrosion is still so low 99% of people will never see any adverse effects.

The only two situations I can see causing problem is if you have a very dirty fuel system (dirty being lots of buildup in the lines/tank etc) That may be disolved and could maybe cause a blockage in a carb. The general consensus i've come to is that if switching to E85 causes a problem, you had an unrecognized issue to begin with. Anyone running quality, well maintained components won't have any problems at all.

Remember, ethanol (especially in a grealy diluted form) is not to be treated the same as pure methanol. Stochiometric (aka air/fuel) ratios are vastly different, as are combustion temperatures, chemical properties, and so on.



Now pretty please, with cherries on top, do some ACTUAL RESEARCH (aka not just gov't disclaimers) before blessing us all with your abundant misinformation. :slap:







disclaimer: sorry if I sound like an ass, but being an engineer it's a MAJOR peev when people post vague assumptions and claim them as gospel. If you don't know, and/or have first hand experience it's ok, remember it's better to remain silent and appear a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

:3gears:

[Kenova]

ProStreet R/T
You're not sounding like an ass to me. Your frustration is coming through loud and clear. :banghead:
I've been wanting to learn more about E85 for some time. I haven't seen any for sale in my neck of the woods, but it sounds like a viable alternative to 91 - 94 octane gasoline. It would be real nice to be able to run 11.5:1 compression ratios with impunity.
Judging by your previous postings, you are actually observing the effects of E85 on parts. Do you have plans to do any testing with an engine?:naughty:
This stuff is going to become more common once the OEMs start leaning on the energy suppliers. I work in a GM truck assembly plant and at the beginning of the 2006 model year we were not producing any E85 compatible trucks. The multi fuel engines now account for a large percentage of 5.3L engines going down the line.
Please keep us updated with your testing.
Ken

[ProStreet R/T]

ProStreet R/T
You're not sounding like an ass to me. Your frustration is coming through loud and clear. :banghead:
I've been wanting to learn more about E85 for some time. I haven't seen any for sale in my neck of the woods, but it sounds like a viable alternative to 91 - 94 octane gasoline. It would be real nice to be able to run 11.5:1 compression ratios with impunity.
Judging by your previous postings, you are actually observing the effects of E85 on parts. Do you have plans to do any testing with an engine?:naughty:
This stuff is going to become more common once the OEMs start leaning on the energy suppliers. I work in a GM truck assembly plant and at the beginning of the 2006 model year we were not producing any E85 compatible trucks. The multi fuel engines now account for a large percentage of 5.3L engines going down the line.
Please keep us updated with your testing.
Ken



11.5:1 N/A is just the beginning. This stuff is killer in that the fuel mileage doesn't suffer much compared to a standard high performance motor on pump gas, and you have the ability to turn it up quite a bit. I've got about 40gal left in a drum in my garage i've been doing some testing with. Here in SoCal it's very hard to find (had to drive about 120 miles round trip from Newport to San Diego just to fill my drum) but I had to see for myself what the hype was all about. Some back east friends of mine are doing more extensive work with it and having fantastic results.

But yes I will definitely post back what hard numbers we get from it. The real advantage will be seen on forced induction cars, as not only do you get the increased octane but charge cooling effect.

My honest feeling is that with E85 1000hp turbo small blocks will be common, and relatively easy. :cheers:

[nancejd]

What are the OEMs doing to make vehicles able to use E85? Is it just a different computer program, or are there hard part differences as well?

[ProStreet R/T]

What are the OEMs doing to make vehicles able to use E85? Is it just a different computer program, or are there hard part differences as well?


They may be changing hard parts but I really doubt it. The only major issue would be putting a sensor in the fuel line/rails to read the % mix of flex and regular petroleum fuel so the computer can properly trim the air/fuel mix.

That and likely going with a different (read MUCH more expensive) O2 sensor. Reason being that on a full E85 mix the stoch should be in the high 9 low 10 range, as opposed to 14.7 idea for petrol. Well a stock narrow band O2 won't read that low even with a programmed compensation. I haven't had the chance to investigate the inner workings of a production flex fuel vehicle yet to see how they get around it.

Motec has the ability to support the inline fuel sensor and auto compensate via the wideband and some programming for those who want aftermarket ability to run either fuel at will. But it (Motec) doesn't come cheap. Last time I talked with John about the BS3 they had the ability to produce it, but he didn't say if it was going to happen or not (much like the traction control abilities of his software).

[nancejd]

I would think this would be the key to figuring out if any hard part changes are needed. The OEMs won't spend money on anything that is not worthwhile.

Sounds like if you had a system using a wideband O2 sensor you would be a lot of the way towards making a system work with E85. Dual fuel would be cool, but I thnk it is more likely that I'd want my car to run on one or the other.

[68Formula]

disclaimer: sorry if I sound like an ass, but being an engineer it's a MAJOR peev when people post vague assumptions and claim them as gospel. If you don't know, and/or have first hand experience it's ok, remember it's better to remain silent and appear a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

:3gears:

Thanks, I accept your apology. Certainly you had no way of knowing that I have 12 years experience as a fuel systems engineer. You of course, did not give me the benefit of the doubt either.

We have done testing with various levels of ethanol requirements. E10 is usually not a problem corrosion-wise. Neither is E22 Brazilian fuel. However, getting to E85 does require changes to many parts of the fuel system from the tank forward.

Our requirements are vehicle life. So we have to be very aggressive. A weekend driver would not see as much exposure. However, a fuel system is not totally sealed (sure we try our best in order to meet SHED emissions). And thermal exposure plays a difference as well. So soaking parts is not a valid test.

A side note, we use E10 in hot fuel handling testing because it vaporizes quicker than regular gasoline. If you have hot start issues now, going E85 will make it worse.

I will admit I don't work with carburetors, so no idea what parts are susceptible to ethanol effects, but I certainly would stay away from copper (including brass) and non-stainless steel components. However, if you do use them, you will not see the effects for thousands of miles or a few years.

It would be more polite in the future to stick with stating your basis for assumptions rather than attacking a person's credentials when you don't know them. It's not or shouldn't be necessary in a technical discussion.

[Kenova]

What are the OEMs doing to make vehicles able to use E85? Is it just a different computer program, or are there hard part differences as well?
I only see the engines. They have stainless steel fuel rails, a slightly bigger cross over line, and the injectors use different connectors. I'm not sure about the O2 sensors, but now that my curiosity has been roused, I'll have to check it out. I'm sure the programing in the computer would be very different.
Ken

[Beegs]

My honest feeling is that with E85 1000hp turbo small blocks will be common, and relatively easy

I hope people amp up safety of their cars along with increased HP.

[nancejd]

I was watching a segment on E85 last night on 60 Minutes. they made a statement to the effect of with some minor parts and an experienced mechanic, an older car could be converted to run E85. I' thinking along the lines of injector o-rings, plastic fuel lines, etc. Does anybody know if standard braided line products will handle E-85?

[68Formula]

If by braided you mean the outter layered stainless steel braiding, you'll need to contact the manufacturer (who knows what's inside).

If by braiding you mean inner reinforced hose there is usually a SAE specification noted on the outside. Reference that number you should find information regarding it's compatibility. The newer fuel injection rated hoses are more likely to be compatible. Always best to verify.

[qwik1320]

I heard ethanol blends can be on the acidic side. Depending on the condition of the tank they are in and the length of time in there the ph can down around 3 or 4. I'm not sure what the ph of "normal" gas is.

Haven't the OEMs been using coatings on some valves to inhibit corrosion and leaking? I remember hearing about coatings several years ago on some vehicles manufactured for the South American market.

[Kenova]

....That and likely going with a different (read MUCH more expensive) O2 sensor. Reason being that on a full E85 mix the stoch should be in the high 9 low 10 range, as opposed to 14.7 idea for petrol. Well a stock narrow band O2 won't read that low even with a programmed compensation. I haven't had the chance to investigate the inner workings of a production flex fuel vehicle yet to see how they get around it.
I checked the engines on the line at work today. The Flex Fuel 5.3s use the very same oxygen sensor (between manifold and cat. con.) as the gas only 5.3 and 4.8. :hmm:
After giving it some thought, I realized that the O2 sensor does not measure fuel ratio directly but does measure the amount of oxygen left in the exhaust gas. I'm thinking that if both gasoline and E85 are burnt at the correct ratio, the same amount of oxygen would be left in the exhaust. With enough injector and computer capacity, the mixture could easily be richened up/leaned out as the amount of ethanol increases/decreases in the fuel mixture.:hmm: Does this make sense to anyone else?
Ken

[nancejd]

If there are any physical differences in the vehicle, I would think it would be in things like o-rings on the fuel injectors, fuel ines, etc.

[68Formula]

I checked the engines on the line at work today. The Flex Fuel 5.3s use the very same oxygen sensor (between manifold and cat. con.) as the gas only 5.3 and 4.8. :hmm:
After giving it some thought, I realized that the O2 sensor does not measure fuel ratio directly but does measure the amount of oxygen left in the exhaust gas. I'm thinking that if both gasoline and E85 are burnt at the correct ratio, the same amount of oxygen would be left in the exhaust. With enough injector and computer capacity, the mixture could easily be richened up/leaned out as the amount of ethanol increases/decreases in the fuel mixture.:hmm: Does this make sense to anyone else?
Ken

Sounds reasonable. It's really correcting for stoich condition (the fuel type's ideal mixture for burning).

While you're down there, I've heard the catalyst (at least for 100% Ethanol) is different (read expensive). Any chance you take a look at that as well?

[Y-TRY]

So, I could/should go find some E-85 and put it in my engine ASAP?

But how in the world to find it?

[MarkM66]

Curious as to why some are referring to Ethanol and Methanol as corrosive, when a non aqueous solution will have no pH.

Look at an MSDS for either, and you'll always find n/a.

Just looked at one for E85, pH N/A.

So if something is breaking down rubber, copper etc. it's not due to corrosivity. Hygroscropic qualities perhaps?

[gwbutch]

Curious as to why some are referring to Ethanol and Methanol as corrosive, when a non aqueous solution will have no pH.

Because we live in an imperfect world where storage tanks tend to accumulate water. Yes, those tanks have drains on them, but with alcohol in the solution, water will solubilize into the hydrocarbon/alcohol solution creating a corrosive solution which will corrode stuff. The MSDS only reports the information of the alcohol, not of an alcohol/water mixture.

[MarkM66]

Because we live in an imperfect world where storage tanks tend to accumulate water. Yes, those tanks have drains on them, but with alcohol in the solution, water will solubilize into the hydrocarbon/alcohol solution creating a corrosive solution which will corrode stuff. The MSDS only reports the information of the alcohol, not of an alcohol/water mixture.

What does the water and alcohol solution turn into which makes it corrosive? Since alchohol has no pH, and Water is obviously neutral.

I think you would have to have quite a bit of contamination in this tank to turn it into a true corrosive. As in a pH <= 2, or >=12.5.

[gwbutch]

There are all kinds of acids that are developed from crude oil. Corrosion is a big problem in the top of crude distillation towers (which is where the naphtha or gasoline goes). Most of the water soluble acids drop out in the separators, but some stays in the oil phase and moves on. Alky units use an acid in their process. The alky is used in blending gasoline. We don't have an alky unit, so I'm not that knowledgable about them. The point is alcohol is a two phase chemical. It is soluble in both water and hydrocarbon. Any water that is around, ie. storage tanks, transfer lines, atmosphere, will solubilize into the gasoline. Are you familiar back in the olden days when carbs would freeze up due to water in the fuel? And you do not need a pH < 2 to cause corrosion. A pH of 6 will corrode carbon steel.

[MarkM66]

Good info.

I would imagine with a pH of only 6, it would take a long to to do any damage to a fuel system.

[Kenova]

While you're down there, I've heard the catalyst (at least for 100% Ethanol) is different (read expensive). Any chance you take a look at that as well?
The Flex Fuel 5.3, gas only 5.3s, and the 4.8 all use the same cat and crossover pipe. I'm beginning to think that using ethanol rather than methanol, and adding the 15% of gasoline solves a lot of problems when compared to 100% ethanol or methanol.
It looks like the biggest hassle with E85 is increasing your compression ratio to take advantage of it. :idea: But hey, that's easy enough to fix with some sort of bolt on forced induction. :naughty:
Ken

[nancejd]

I wonder about the soft parts though. What about all of the seals on the fuel system?

[67SSDan]

Maybe some of you smart guys can comment on this. I was in a discussion with a guy about this the other day. He was saying that the "fuel value" of E85 is lower then that of regular pump gas, meaning that given the same scenarios, it would take MORE E85 to accomplish the same task as gas. Any truth to that?

His slant on it was that over the past couple of years there has been a trend of adding stuff to gas (and subsequently lowering the "fuel value") and at the same time the cost keeps going up... leaving us paying more for something of lesser value. He was pissed because the cost of E85 is supposed to be not THAT much cheaper then what we're paying now (some of you guys who can actually get the stuff please comment here), and the supposed value of it is lower as well.

Comments?

[derekf]

Dan - yes.

Check out http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/byfueltype.htm

A 2006 Monte Carlo gets 31mpg highway on gasoline, but only 24 on E85. The EPA at this site is actually estimating that the cost per year to run the vehicle is higher with E85 than with gasoline.

[andrewb70]

For what its worth, I just called a local supplier of E85 and it was $2.14 per gallon.

Andrew

[68Formula]

What's race gas run these days? Gotta be at least $3.50/gallon by now.

Problem with flex-fuel cars is they're compromised to run both. I'm sure the fuel economy would improve a little if you could bump the compression a couple points to take advantage of the octane.

[Fuelie Fan]

Is that a funny? Where I am, 91 is $3.50/gallon

Ethanol has a much lower stoichiometric point, I beleive it's around 9:1. So, if you're at stoich to please the catalyst, you are going to burn more fuel. E85 is around 10:1. So, in order for E85 to save us money, it would have to be 2/3 the cost or less.

Ethanol also has a lower HHV, but when you combine it with how much richer the mixture is, the HHV x volume of fuel burned gives you more total energy. Same with Methanol. So, "in theory" you can make slightly more power with it even before you start optimizing the engine by raising compression.

[MarkM66]

I think Stoich for E-85 is 9:1, as opposed to 14.7:1 like normal gas. Figures may be slightly off.

It was in a tech question in the latest Hot Rod.

[Fuelie Fan]

http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/pdfs/fueltable.pdf

Pure ethanol is in fact 9:1, which would make E85 closer to 10:1

[nancejd]

So assuming that E-85 gets you 2/3 as far as regular gas at $2.14 a gollon, regular would have to be $3.21 a gallon to break even. Not to mention that if you can run a higher compression ratio with E-85, that means it should be a good substitute for super unleaded, which looking out my window here at work at the Safeway across the street is at $3.37 a gallon. I've seen regular at $3.31 a gallon locally at the highway stores.

Sounds like a pretty good deal to me, I'd take the reduced range and fill up more often. Plus, I would bet that the cost of E-85 would drop as the supply increases due to demand, and more manufacturing and distribution comes on line.

[ItsA68]

the best thing about the E85 is that we don't have to buy 85% of it from someone that would just as soon kill us all. now if the govt would stop propping up the price of corn, stop paying farmers NOT to grow it, and maybe that E85 would be even less expensive to produce. :) future will be celulose type fermentations for Ethanol from what I see.

~~fred

[Kenova]

:hmm: :idea: Can you make ethanol from garbage? There is no shortage of the stuff, and it would be nice to get a little something extra from it before it hits the land fill or incinerator.
Ken

[justanova]

the best thing about the E85 is that we don't have to buy 85% of it from someone that would just as soon kill us all. now if the govt would stop propping up the price of corn, stop paying farmers NOT to grow it, and maybe that E85 would be even less expensive to produce. :) future will be celulose type fermentations for Ethanol from what I see.

~~fred

where do you get signed up to get paid not to grow corn? Im sure my dad(a farmer in Iowa) would love to get on that plan. truth is the price of corn is so low, that its hard to make any money growing the stuff.

[ItsA68]

Please believe me when I say that I have nothing against farmers, corn, or E85.

.....if we wanted to make a bunch more E85, then we'd need a lot more corn to make it. If the demand for corn went up, then the price would go up. corn subsidies were about 4.5 billion$$ last year, and were given to relatively few folks. Wish your dad could have gotten his share! If there isn't enough market for corn to make the price decent enough for it to be worth growing, then farmers should grow something else that they can make $$ on right?

check out
http://www.ewg.org/farm/progdetail.php?fips=00000&progcode=corn

I feel like the good ole capitalistic system should rule, and the govt should stay out of the farmin' business.

[68Formula]

Ever notice corn looks the same going in, as it does out? Maybe we don't need to grow more afterall.:)

[69protour]

I'm right here in the heart of all the E-85 talk.... Iowa.. God's country. We're in the process of putting up quite a few Ethanol plants all across the state. It'll be very interesting to see how everything goes with these sprouting up. Hopefully they will take off and really make the corn more valuable than what is has been! They do have special breeds of corn now,that are high in sugar, or something that produces more ethanol when processed.
Trond.

[Kenova]

You can brew ethanol from more than just corn. The list gets longer every year.
Ken