78-88 G-Body Control Arms??

[BigDylan]

I am looking to buy the best set of control arms out there. I have looked at the Hotchkis,BMR, and Global West arms. I was really wondering if there was anything else out there that was any better. If not which of the ones I listed are the better arms. Also my second question is if it is worth it or not to get the lower control arms? and also if anyone knows who makes the better springs eibach or hotchkis? and shocks? I am on a pretty tight budget because i am also saving up for the motor and all those goodies plus wheels and tires rear end etc.

thanks

[Dust87ss]

The Hotchkis and Global arms will require you to do the B-spindle swap, but I would say Global is the better of the two. The BMR arms are stock replacement and will give no geometry benefits.

You can get an SC&C Stage 2 kit for just a little more than you would pay for the Global arms alone. www.scandc.com

[BigDylan]

i looked at the SC&C arms. thanks for that info. i am very interested in them. have you heard a lot of good feedback from them. they look a little weaker than the other arms where the ball joints are at. but they definitely look very adjustable.

thanks again for the info

[astroracer]

Can I ask WHY you want to change the arms? Looks? Handling?
I am asking because, if you are doing it for "looks", it's an expensive way to go for show...
If you are doing it for handling, the stock arms will do the exact same job the high-end, expensive, aftermarket arms will do... What I am getting at here is, without a major "geometry" change, bolting in different arms will not make much of a difference. Using the stock pick-up points won't measurably change the handling characteristics whatever kind of arm is bolted in, whether it's stamped steel or gold plated laudnum.
If you go this route don't set your hopes to high in the handling dept.
Just some things to think about when it comes to budgeting your build...
Mark

[Dust87ss]

i looked at the SC&C arms. thanks for that info. i am very interested in them. have you heard a lot of good feedback from them. they look a little weaker than the other arms where the ball joints are at. but they definitely look very adjustable.

thanks again for the info

Mine have worked fine for me, what little bit I've driven my car since the install. The arms alone arent going to do anything for handling; that's what the tall ball joints are for.

[420elco]

Dustin So should just install tall ball joints.

[astroracer]

Do a search, this has been beat to death on this site...
Here is one very good discussion...
https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1887&highlight=tall+spindle+conversion

[BigDylan]

I just dont quite understand how those sc&c arms cant be better than stock uppers. I do want to do this for handling not show. I really want to build the car and have fun with it at the local scca road race events at memphis motorsports park. I am swapping in an LT1 and a T56 here very soon. One main reason that I am worried about getting the arms first is because i need to go ahead and do the b body spindle swap so i can get the right offset wheels. and that is the first step i want to take. also I will be getting a 8.5" 10 bolt and rear suspension links too. Not saying that I am right (not at all) but I just dont see how these SC&C pro lite arms cant be a hell of an improvement over the stockers. And i am pretty sure you have to change the upper arms for the B-body spindle upgrade right? I dont think you can use stock arms with those spindles can you? and as far as i know the bigger brakes are a much better improvement compared to the tiny stockers. Does the B body spindle help the handling because of the taller spindle and different ball joints?

I am no suspension expert. so all of your help is much appreciated
thanks again guys

[astroracer]

I just dont quite understand how those sc&c arms cant be better than stock uppers. I do want to do this for handling not show. I really want to build the car and have fun with it at the local scca road race events at memphis motorsports park. I am swapping in an LT1 and a T56 here very soon. One main reason that I am worried about getting the arms first is because i need to go ahead and do the b body spindle swap so i can get the right offset wheels. and that is the first step i want to take. also I will be getting a 8.5" 10 bolt and rear suspension links too. Not saying that I am right (not at all) but I just dont see how these SC&C pro lite arms cant be a hell of an improvement over the stockers. And i am pretty sure you have to change the upper arms for the B-body spindle upgrade right? I dont think you can use stock arms with those spindles can you? and as far as i know the bigger brakes are a much better improvement compared to the tiny stockers. Does the B body spindle help the handling because of the taller spindle and different ball joints?

I am no suspension expert. so all of your help is much appreciated
thanks again guys

BD,
The arms LOOK nice but, you are not changing anything but the arm when you bolt them in. You are still connecting pt. A to pt. B. That's what I mean when I say the stock stamped arm will do the same job. Without a complete overhaul of the geometry points (where the arms bolt to the frame) the suspension will handle just like it did with the stock arms... You would be farther ahead to tighten up the suspension with some poly bushings and stick in a set of double adjustable shocks and a good sway bar.
The B spindle swap will help camber a bit but I don't think that outweighs the increased bumpsteer and reduced ackerman you will see with the swap. I know this is the case with the early F bodies. Correct me, anyone if I am wrong, but I thought the 3rd and 4th gen. G bodies used the B body spindle already...??
As far as brakes go the bigger brakes will bolt right up to your current spindle. They all use the same bearings. Check the bearing numbers at your parts store.
Mark

[BigDylan]

thanks for the info man i really appreciate it.
so do most people move the mounting points on the frame more rearwards of forwards for the castor change? or do they seek more changes by moving differently than front to back?

[astroracer]

thanks for the info man i really appreciate it.
so do most people move the mounting points on the frame more rearwards of forwards for the castor change? or do they seek more changes by moving differently than front to back?

That's just it... MOST people follow the herd, like you were about to do. Simply bolting on a fancy tubular arm is NOT going to make a difference. But enough people believe the hype that it will so, now, it is a "performance" upgrade. In all actuality there are very few "easy bolt on" performance parts that will make a measurable difference. Guldstrand and Hotchkiss do have some nice parts and there is a kit to move the upper bushing points for the 1st gen F bodies but even this is a partial fix. Unless you have the ability to completely redesign your suspension; and this includes the steering pivots, ackerman angles, roll center height, bumpsteer angles, etc., etc. you are better off leaving things as they are. Upgrade the bushings ,shocks and bars as I previously suggested and you will pleased with the performance.
I guess I would like to ask why you think the suspension is so bad that you have to "move" something to make it better? Just curious...
Mark

[Dust87ss]

Dustin So should just install tall ball joints.

No, you should also use their arms so that the ball joint angle will be correct.

Mark, the SC&C Stage 2 kit also includes tall upper and lower balljoints. You get a camber curve similar to the B-spindle swap without the bumpsteer and ackerman problems.

[dgumoe]

correction, you get the better camber curve WITHOUT the bumpsteer and ackerman issues. just get the kit from marcus, dont waste time with the b-body spindle. email marcus and he will give you all the info you need. if you want big brakes find spindles from a 2000 and up s-10 blazer, 2wd that utilizes the bolt on hub assembly and slip on rotor. that will allow you to run a corvette rotor and caliper. you just need a bracket to bolt the caliper to the spindle. best part is all the parts are oem so you can get em at your local parts house if you need em.

[Marcus SC&C]

Astroracer, I agree with you on several points but it doesn`t sound like your familliar with the G body chassis,it`s issues or our suspension packages. It might not be a bad idea to do a little research before you post. ;)
It`s true that upper arms (ANY upper arms) won`t and can`t improve handling with NO other changes. However many of them,ours included, allow the use of much more performance oriented alignment settings which WILL improve performance. Adj. arms such as our will also allow proper perfromance alignments with lowered ride heights which is often impossible with stock arms. Further,they allow you to have that same perf. alignment after you`ve made meaningful geometry changes! You have to have BOTH for best performance. Vertical changes in the pickup points to improve the poor (in this case very poor) factory geometry can be achieved in many ways such as moving the frame mounts,use of taller than stock ball joints,taller spindles etc. Most folks aren`t up to chopping up their frame so we take a bolt on approach. Take a look on our site at the suspension diagrams and you can see the dramatic improvements that can be made with the *proper combination* of bolt on parts. In 1995 that wasn`t so,but it is now!
BigDylan I`d be happy to talk to you and help sort out all the tech and hype if you wanna give me a call or drop me an e mail. Mark SC&C

[astroracer]

Well, Marcus, I will stand corrected, to a point. I will also admit that I don't know that much about the G Body suspension but that is, really, a moot point. When it comes to bolt on parts for ANY suspension, no matter what it is, you have to agree that there is a minimal gain for most bolt on pieces.
I'll also agree that there may be some gains to be had with an adjustable arm such as yours but, as you stated, those gains will not see full potential until some much needed changes to other areas are completed. Doing those changes correctly is the hard part. Every change will drive equal changes to every other aspect of the suspension and this is where bolt on hardware will fall short. This being the fact that a good track set-up may be a handful on the street with a lot of camber, bumpsteer and tire wear. A street car needs things a track car doesn't and vice-versa. I know that my Astro will not see any real track time so it will be set up to drive well on the street. if it can put up good numbers in a track situation that will be a bonus.
This is the decision BigDylan needs to make. Where will the car live and how much of a "race" car does he want to make it. All I am doing is getting him to look at the big picture...
Thank you for being cool about it also.
I would be interested in seeing some of the numbers you have generated in your Performance Trends program. Diagrams are nice but numbers would be much more informative...
Mark

[Marcus SC&C]

Mark,the numbers are on the bottom of every diagram. I don`t know of ANY other suspension company that will give out a fraction of that information so that`s all you`re gettin! :razz: Actually I`m not sure why some of the numbers didn`t print and others did. I know it was a PITA to transfer from the suspension program to the website though!
You`re preaching to the choir,I do this for a living. We`ve been building and testing these systems for years. Because they`re modular we can tweak them to work best on each individual`s car for their own uses and even driving style. That`s the main reason we don`t have a "shopping cart" on the site. We talk to every single customer about the what they want to get out of their car and how to get there instead of just taking parts orders.
I had to laugh when I read your posts,there was something familliar about them but I couldn`t put my finger on it....they sound a lot like mine! Can`t fault you for that. :) We even have the same name,are you sure you`re not me? :lmao: Mark SC&C

[Dust87ss]

correction, you get the better camber curve WITHOUT the bumpsteer and ackerman issues.
Wow, those three letters turn into a really big goofup dont they? Thanks for catching that.



We talk to every single customer about the what they want to get out of their car and how to get there instead of just taking parts orders. I'll attest to this.

[astroracer]

Mark,the numbers are on the bottom of every diagram. I don`t know of ANY other suspension company that will give out a fraction of that information so that`s all you`re gettin! :razz: Actually I`m not sure why some of the numbers didn`t print and others did. I know it was a PITA to transfer from the suspension program to the website though!
You`re preaching to the choir,I do this for a living. We`ve been building and testing these systems for years. Because they`re modular we can tweak them to work best on each individual`s car for their own uses and even driving style. That`s the main reason we don`t have a "shopping cart" on the site. We talk to every single customer about the what they want to get out of their car and how to get there instead of just taking parts orders.
I had to laugh when I read your posts,there was something familliar about them but I couldn`t put my finger on it....they sound a lot like mine! Can`t fault you for that. :) We even have the same name,are you sure you`re not me? :lmao: Mark SC&C

Hey Mark,
I totally understand the number thing, no prob. I don't give away my Bad Ast numbers either....
As far as "preaching to the choir" I am not preaching to you as much as I am preaching the other "parishioners". I just want these guys to know that there is no MAGIC BULLIT when it comes to suspension design. Unless they are willing (and capable) to go the full distance to design a "complete" package, everything else is just a compromise. Some are effective and some are not. It just gets frustrating to see the exact same questions asked every day (like this)... https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18789
I am impressed with your set-up though. I can see, after doing a little more research:thankyou: , that your arms do offer a lot of adjustability that wouldn't be possible with stock arms. I think that would be worth more in the long run.
Mark

[BigDylan]

Thanks a lot for the info guys. I really learned a lot of stuff that I didnt know about control arms and their geometry. Thanks for the G-body info Marcus. I really didnt know that the control arms could do that for the suspension geometry with the different length ball joints. I also didnt know that the s10 spindles and the corvette brakes worked together like that and I also didnt know that they were shorter than the B-body spindles. I definitely will be going this direction since it is much easier for me than relocating the mounts. It will also fit my budget and I feel that it is the best bang for the buck for my application. The brakes are better than the B bodys plus they work with the short S10 spindles which previously stated are better for the geometry than the tall spindles...Correct? I will not really be hardcore racing right yet. I mean first I need to learn how to drive on the track before I will be desiring for more extensive geometry modifications. Plus the only track that I know of around the Memphis area is Memphis Motorsports Park and I dont believe that it offers the best road track. The only other non drag racing event around here is Drift Days which is a parking lot cone course built for sliding around. I mean I wouldnt mind punking out the ricers but I feel that for neither of these courses do I need anything more than the SC&C setup I mentioned.Plus nothing is stopping me from doing it in the future if I desire. I feel that either way I am headed in a better direction than stock.Thanks again for all the info guys.

:worship: Thanks


Hey Marcus I am looking to get a set of 18" HP Evo wheels. I was wondering if you knew offhand the offset that I need with the corvette brakes up front and a stock width rear end. I was looking to run 245/40/18 up front and a 275/35/18 in the back. I want them to tuck pretty hard and am not sure if that is possible with these size tires. I will cut the fender lip thats not a problem.
Thanks a lot if anyone knows!

[McssGmachine]

Hey Dylan, did you get my e mail?

Brian

[BigDylan]

yeah i got the email. thanks a lot. your car is really nice. Do you remember what offset your wheels are?

[McssGmachine]

Thanks! The fronts 4.5 bs and the rears are 5.5 bs.

Brian

[BigDylan]

no spacers needed? and with the fronts is that the same size backspacing even with the corvette rotors or do they move the wheel out a bit?

[McssGmachine]

Nope, but I have a beef'd up suspension like tubular control arms and poly bushings in the rearend. I have the B-body spindle swap on the front and I think it pushes the wheels out a little more. Ask Marcus,he should know.:twothumbs

Brian

[gmachinz]

I'm not so sure ditching B-body spindle swap would be saving you money over the S-10 hub swap. The last time I checked,the 2wd hubs were insanely expensive, plus the cost of the Corvette style brakes and the fab cost of the brackets needed to make it all work puts you about even if maybe a tad more than the B-body swap. I am skeptical about the amount of bumpsteer that people report about after performing the swap. I am more convinced that wheel/tire choice has a large effect on how the bumpsteer issue is perceived. A larger width means more contact patch which serves to "make-up for..." any additional (if any) bumpsteer problems. And, people need to address the whole front suspension when performing any kind of work, or swaps. I have my B-body swap dialed in pretty nice with minor adjustments for toe-in and camber angles, but I am wanting to try other systems, like Marcus' kit. Besides, I wanted to run Impala SS wheels and they don't have a 5 on 5 S-10 hub last I checked, either! LOL So yeah there were other determining factors but handling was a big idea behind the swap and I haven't regretted it one bit! Lastly, total surface area on the rotor is the biggest key to improved braking so the 12" rotor was the best route to take there as well for the money. -Jabin

[BigDylan]

yeah i understand where you are coming from. but i will have enough money to budget the corvette brakes and marcus' sc&c setup. I am interested in knowing the actual difference between the two but i dont think i ever would unless i did em both. From what i have read about suspensions on here i think my money would be a better investment if i go with the sc&c setup. Thats just the chance i am gonna take. hopefully i will be satisfied and i have talked to a couple of g body guys on other forums that were extremely pleased with that setup.