Front clips (subframe)

[Jinks]

As im new in the game here.. i just dont know where to start with finding a front subframe.. ive found several by searching the internet.. but have no idea of quality, fitment.. which has better geometry? which is hte most complete package?

Basically im looking for a 1st gen camaro / 3rd gen nova front clip which would include ALL new suspension components including a full disc brake setup, rack and pinion, control arms, etc

any links or suggestions would be great :) anyone who's done this before and has suggestions on where to start feel free to chime in :)

thanks

[colt zantop]

there are a few places that come to mind, detroit speed and engineering, wayne due, art morrison, are a couple places you could check out. some of these links are on the right edge of this website. if not...a simple google search should find them. :)

[THX 138]

"front clip" is the sheetmetal infront of the doors and firewall, "front subframe" is the front frame. "Assembled front subframe" would include all the suspension and whatnot.

[baz67]

Do a search in here and you will find everything you need.

[Jinks]

ahh perfect. thanks for the correction.. proper phrasing goes a long way when trying to find something hah :)

ill try a search and see what i can find!

[hssss]

Not being a smart a** but what is the reason for changing the front frame? If it is simply to get rid of the rear steer use the front frame from a 2nd gen camarobird. the 79 or so WS6 fbird as well as others have the variable/fast ratio steering. There are a lot of reasonable parts developed for track racing, and its basicly a bit sneeky in that unless someone knows what they are looking at it will look stock. My 69 Fbird convert had 50 series tires and you had to bump steer it (with the steering wheel) to corner. What I had decided was to use the gen 2 frame with a subframe connector to pick up the front mount of the rear springs. Getting rid of it took care of the proble, ultimatly.

[Jinks]

im just looking for the simplest kit!

im all for keeping the stock frame if i can find a kit that comes with everything else!

So far the kit that matches my criteria the best is the global west negative roll kit.. but its still missing some components id like to change :/ I cant seem to win here for under 7k haha.

[hssss]

https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16574
It depends on what you are going to use the car for. If it is a street car a good compromise is a 79 Fbird WS6 subframe and components. This would have disks and variable ratio steering box. Rebuild everything one package is http://www.hotchkis.net/cgi-bin/EDCstore.pl?user_action=detail&catalogno=80017 I'm sure that yu can find others but one of the main things is to get rid of the rear steer which everything compreses changing your geometry till it releases due to tire slip then does it again. That is why, simplisticly, your steering feels so bad driving fast thru twisties. It won't just fall in though note URL.

[Jinks]

i dont get it.. if the rear steer is such a big problem why the aftermarket frames dont seem to note it as a change?

Looking around at all the different frong subframes for sale, i think what im REALLY looking for is just the suspension components and not the whole deal.. its just out of my price range.. i cant afford to spend 10k on my suspension right now haha.

Sooo.. i guess what im REALLY looking for is just a kit, or possibly two kits combined..

a front coil over / disc brake setup with rack and pinion is probably most ideal for me..

and i still dont know if those del-a-lum rear shackles are worth the crazy price.. has anyone here USED those particular swivle shackles?

[MSchu]

This has been covered/talked about 10001 times. DSE, Global West, and Hotchkis have all the parts you need. But, this can also be done on the cheap...G-Mod, C5 brakes, and you don't need coil-overs or a rack and pinion unless you really want them.

[Jinks]

i can see that they all combined have pretty much all the parts i need. but i have no idea what is necessary, what is suggested.. what is just purely asthetic, and that's what im trying to learn. seems like half the time it depends on each persons opinion. All i want is a good handling car with some disc brakes.

so are coil overs on the front really worth it? if im changing everythign over anyway? it seems kind of nice to have super adjustable front suspension considering i take my car to the track.

are the heavy duty leafs with the rotating shackles good enough in the back?

like i said, all of these seem to depend on who you ask, im jsut trying to get a broader picture of what people are running, and how they like it :)

[MSchu]

This question seemingly comes up once a week. Not trying to be a **** here, but have you searched in the suspension forum yet? Threads have covered everything from very light to very hardcore tech. You might want to start reading here: http://www.pozziracing.com/first_gen_suspension.htm

[hssss]

The link has very good informatiion. The only thing I didn't see was a discussion of the benifits of front steer vs rear steer. The aftermkt subframes use rack and pinion which greatly changes the components. The problem with rear steer is, again, that everything deflects on hard cornering causing the geometry to change depending on traction. Specificly the toe changes as the linkage loads change. In my case I had a 69 firebird with a built 350 that I put 50 series, this was 25 years ago, tires on and I lived in the hills. When you started pushing the car the geometry would be all over the place and yu would have to go thru fast turns bumping the wheel to keep a line. I believe this is why GM changed to front steer. My 79 firebird didn't have these handling problems with basicly the same wheels and tires. Build the front like it is a asphault circle track without the wedge. If the track is the strip mostly take out any play you can out of the suspension and the suggestion of brakes in the above url looks good.

[Jinks]

so you're saying that just putting rack and pinion in there will fix this :)

seems easier than swapping the whole frame, and cheaper in the long run.

[hssss]

Fraid it's never that simple. To put a rack on your current system, I'm working from memory, I believe it would have to pass thru the oil pan. It would seem that your options are probably in order of cost and difficulty , follow Pozziracing's suggestions, install gen2 subframe and do much the same as the first (but get rid of rear steer), or go with aftermarket subframe. Which answer depends on use of the car and your fab skills.

[hssss]

Take back some of what was said bout the Rack. Just came accross this it should take out most of the compliance that the rear steer provides. http://www.unisteer.com/product.php?productid=16218&cat=250&page=1

This along with Globals setup for using the full size car spindles and 12" brakes should make a super setup. This and polly bushings and disk brakes wouild make a very good and reasonable setup.

[importkiller69ss]

i dont think you need high doller rack and pinion and aftermarket subframe unless you just have money to blow and or planning on some hard racing...if you just want a tight feeling good handling nice stance good braking daily driver/weekend cruiser it can be done cheap...i did it and so have many others....everyone is right this has been talked about alot and i have been one of them who has asked a ton of questions...i just got done doing my front frame with all new everything for under 1000.....i already had the hotchkis tvs kit ...i did the g-mod which is free...i did all new steering components .pitman arm, centerlink, ragjoint and the third gen iroc box which is 2.5 turns lock to lock 12.7 ratio...ls1 brakes new ball joints and bushings...i havent driven my car since this but will within a month or so..i have rode in one with it all and it feels great nice and tight and a killer stance...sure racks are great if you have the money and want to but they are not a must have for a great handling steering car...now the aftermarket subframe are the best...wayne dues looks killer and has the best of everything if you have the money but if not jsut do the things that are similar to what i have listed

[hssss]

Actualy my answer to all this is my next toy. A 1400 lb Lotus 7 with a 392. Just providing some info.

[Jinks]

does the 3rd gen steering box fit right in? or is some fabrication required?

[importkiller69ss]

fits right in with factory bolts and hoses the only thing you will need it so contact lee manufacturing and get a special ragjoint and 2 couplers....and then a moog long pitman arm.. check this out as far as the third gem box goes...i got mine from napa for 150 new
http://69camaro.nextmill.net/steering.html

[Jinks]

very nice link.. thanks :)

[importkiller69ss]

no prob i know it helped me a ton i love the way it felt on my buddies car 10 x better than the stocker and close to a rack setup which my other buddy has who spent over a grand on his he was jelous

[BonzoHansen]

That is a good link. Here is a 3rd gen box in a 2nd gen, for reference.

http://www.propontiac.com/