Man do I ever hate brake lines!

[73z-6sp]

Wtf!? Why is it so difficult to connect brake lines. I thought...I'll order the pre-made lines and then make them work for my application, Baer brakes on 68 Camaro, Good grief! They wont even fit if I kept it stock! Nothing fits at all. Throw in the new master cylinder and a adjustable prop valve and you're screwed! I have been screwing with this for days and driving all over town trying to make things fit. How have the rest of you dealt with this? I cant be the only one who has ever had this problem. Im really getting sick of this!

[baz67]

Consider making your own?

[73z-6sp]

I have tried but I cannot get a good double flare. I even have access to a good flaring machine at work but it too will not make a good double flare. Or atleast not on stainless that is less than 3/8" diameter. Im considering making braided stainless to connect the MC, prop valve, etc.

[baz67]

Do a single flare with AN fittings. It is much easier.

[CarlC]

You must still double flare mild steel tubing if using AN. For our cars it is mandatory to double flare every pressure application in the car, even fuel lines.

For me, the best option was to buy several Imperial tubing benders and convert everything over to AN. Stainless tubing does not require double flares, and will likely crack if you try. I have an Imperial single flare tool that works well.

You can also use SAE 45 single flare stainless. The F-R brake hardline attachment and the mid-differential rear flexible line are the only SAE fittings in the system. I did this since I already had a stainless flexible hose in SAE.

Three weeks ago I made a new F-R 3/16" stainless brake line. It took three hours to get it bent just right but it fits like a glove.

[DeepBlue68]

Working with brake lines is such a pain in the a**. I built all the brake lines for our Formula SAE car at school, and I don't want to do it again. I gave up on tubing benders for anything except 90 degree turns in one plane.

I'm gonna be doing the same thing as you pretty soon - building brake lines for my '68 Camaro with Baer brakes and a prop valve. I haven't even really looked into it so far, but I figured it wasn't gonna be easy. One thing that has always interested me is these brake line pliers from Eastwood: http://www.eastwoodco.com/shopping/product/detailmain.jsp?itemType=PRODUCT&RS=1&itemID=10826&keyword=49074. They seem like they'd really help with bending those lines to fit, especially in tight areas.

Although I haven't done it personally, my suggestion would be to cut the premade rear line down by the frame, and put a coupler on it, and build the part up to the prop valve by yourself from scratch. You can buy SS brake line and fittings from any auto parts store. Also, don't forget to put those little spiral loops in the lines so that they won't snap when they flex from chassis flex, temperature, etc.

[Colin Frolick]

i also had a hell of a time with some brake lines today, it kind of ruined my day of wrenching.

are all double flare tools complete ****e? i've had 2, the first from harbor freight let the line slip through, and the 2nd from Jeg's doesn't even have the holes perpendicular to the face, making it impossible to get an even flare. on both the dies eventually broke. i used a flat piece of steel in its place, which actually works well.

all 'cheap' flare tools are the same style. is there one make that is good? i've seen Imperial or Ridgid recommended. I'm about ready to spring for the hydraulic one, as some of you have praised.

[73z-6sp]

Whew...Not that I'm happy that you all had problems too but it makes me feel a little better knowing Im not the only one.

Is it acceptable to make stainless lines with a single flare? I always have been told it wasnt for brake applications. I understand the cracking problem. But the SS lines I bought have double flares. Someone needs to market some lines made for these types of conversions. If they can make factory lines, then they should be able to make custom sets too? Just an idea.

Thanks for the replies!

[CarlC]

The hydraulic tool works well, but is pricey. It is just about impossible to get a good bench double flare on 1/4" and smaller tubing using hand tools only. Rigid makes a pretty good part, but the same problems exist with smaller tubing.

You could make up the lines except for the flares, then take the tube to a hydraulics shop to have the flares done.

Stainless, single flare, is much easier to deal with. I gave up on mild steel double flares.

[DeepBlue68]

You could make up the lines except for the flares, then take the tube to a hydraulics shop to have the flares done.
Any ideas on how much that would cost? I've never even heard of such a service...but then again, I'm certainly not an expert at braking systems.

[74Novasteve]

I had the same problems when I was installing my SSBC kit on my Nova. The lines drove me insane. I must've fiddled with them for about 2 weeks trying all different methods of flaring and practicing flaring different tubes, and replacing fittings and such. I only used the hand tool version but i eventually just gave up and bought the sections of pre-flared lines that are available at any auto parts store. Granted I couldnt get a single line going from the front to the back of the car because they didn't have anything pre-flared long enough so I had to use 3 pieces of line which I put together with female/female fittings. Then I just bent them up and they've worked great. I haven't had any problems yet and it saved me a ton of hassle.

[CarlC]

Any ideas on how much that would cost? I've never even heard of such a service...but then again, I'm certainly not an expert at braking systems.

An industrial hydraulics shop is the best bet. Yellow Pages....

I elected to buy the tools and swap to single flare stainless. This way I can modify something at 2am if necessary.

By far the best down-to-earth, hands-on, book for our applications is Carroll Smith's "Nuts, Bolts, Fasteners, and Plumbing." It's a great book.

Formula SAE eh? I built concrete canoes.

[Colin Frolick]

i just ordered this tool

http://www.eastwoodco.com/shopping/product/detailmain.jsp?itemID=2486&itemType=PRODUCT&iMainCat=545&iSubCat=547&iProductID=2486

wish me luck.

[DeepBlue68]

Formula SAE eh? I built concrete canoes
I see....that doesn't sound like a very interesting design problem....or is it just me? :dunno:


By far the best down-to-earth, hands-on, book for our applications is Carroll Smith's "Nuts, Bolts, Fasteners, and Plumbing." It's a great book.
I used that book when I was trying to learn about the different types of brake lines, flares, AN standards, etc. I never read the whole thing, but it seemed like a really good resource.

[CarlC]

Designing, building, and paddling one is a bit more challenging than is sounds.

Competition Rules, Scoring and Awards

Rule and scoring changes have been a major factor in determining which teams have reached the national competition in 2005. Ten teams are attending this year that did not qualify at the national level in 2004.

The requirement of a specified percentage of sand and fly ash and/or slag has caused teams to modify their "formulas of success" for mix and reinforcement. Students are now required to use ordinary sand as 15 percent of their aggregate mixture and either recycled coal fly ash or ground granulated blast furnace slag as 15 or 25 percent, respectively, of the binding material. These new rules seem to be yielding heavier canoes, bucking the 15-year trend towards lighter, sleeker canoes. The average weight for canoes competing in this year's competition is 216 lbs, with the lightest canoe from the North Carolina State University weighing in at 143 lbs and the heaviest from Catholic University at 338.5 lbs. The average weight of the canoes competing in 2004 was 190 lbs.

The nagging question of "How much strength does paint add to thin-shelled canoe hulls?" is now moot, with paint restricted to three small areas on the canoe. Schools wanting to add color to their canoe now use coloring admixtures or externally applied concrete stains.

The design paper is structured to model a professional engineering report. Students must now include analysis of their design leading to the final design and construction of the canoe, a description of how the project was managed, and engineering drawings with a bill of materials.

Scoring has been adjusted so that 25 percent of the points are based on the paper, 25 percent on the oral presentations, 25 percent on the final product, and 25 percent on the racing. In the past, the design paper and the race each represented 30 percent of the overall score, while the business presentation represented 25 percent and the final product was only worth 15 percent each of the overall score.

The final product score is calculated by assessing an aesthetics score and deducting points for durability issues. Aesthetics is also now left to the eye of the beholder, allowing judges to use any criteria to determine what makes the canoe attractive. Students also rate each other's canoes for aesthetics and the average student score gets the full weight of one of the judges' scores. The durability is based solely on the use of tape as a repair material to fix damage not associated with collisions.

Canoes must pass a "swamp test," in which the canoes must be able to float horizontally when submerged in water. The competition features five race events: the men's slalom/endurance, the men's sprint, the women's slalom/endurance, the women's sprint and the co-ed sprint race. All races, with the exception of the co-ed sprint race, require two paddlers. Canoes in the co-ed sprint race must be powered by a four-person crew (two men and two women), presenting a significant design challenge.

The slalom/endurance racecourse length is 600 meters in distance with a slalom comprised of seven buoys. The sprint racecourse is a straight course of 100 meters out, followed by a 180-degree turn and an additional 100 meters back to the finish line.

Canoe Construction and Materials

Students must use concrete mixtures that contain Portland cement and fly ash and/or ground granulated blast furnace slag as binding material as well as a minimum required amount of concrete sand. Depending on which binding materials are used, certain required amounts must be met: 70 percent cement and 15 percent fly ash, 70 percent cement and 25 percent slag, or 50 percent cement, 15 percent fly ash and 25 percent slag. All percentages are based on weight. Fifteen percent of the aggregate volume used must be in accordance with the specifications of ASTM C 33 Fine Aggregate.

Additional binding materials may include other hydraulic cements, pozzolans, resins and polymers in latex form. No pre-mixed or pre-packaged concrete, mortar or grout mixtures may be used. If the only binding materials are a combination of Portland cement, fly ash, microsilica and slag, then there is no minimum ratio of water to binding materials. If other binding materials are used, the minimum ratio of water to Portland cement is 0.24. The reinforcement material, such as welded-wire or carbon fiber mesh, may provide stiffness, but the concrete must provide the primary strength. Solid mats or plates that require additional bonding agents or post-manufacturer perforations to keep the reinforcement from pulling away from the concrete composite are not permitted. All materials must be environmentally safe. The canoe must be built within the current academic year and meet safety guidelines. No movable steering devices or fixed seats are allowed.

Business Presentation and Academic Judging

Each team must conduct a formal, five-minute oral presentation, in which they detail the canoe's design, construction, racing ability and other innovative features. Presentations may be technical and/or marketing-oriented.

Teams submit a design paper as well as a cutaway of their finished canoe showing the forming, casting and reinforcing techniques used. Judges evaluate finished canoes for workmanship, aesthetics and name selection. The design paper must include an introduction, sections covering the hull design, concrete mixture and selection, construction, project management and cost assessment, and innovative features. Copies of the design paper are available upon request.

Overall Scoring

Overall Scoring for the ASCE National Concrete Canoe Competition is divided into four components:


Design paper 25 percent
Business presentation 25 percent
Final product (canoe) 25 percent
Races 25 percent

Eligibility

A student team qualifies for the national competition as a first place winner or designated alternate in one of the 18 nationwide ASCE Student Regional Conferences or as the host school of the National Competition. The host school may compete or delay its entry until the following year. The second place winner in a regional competition is invited to compete if that region's first place winner placed among the top five winners in the previous year's national competition.

A team may register up to five male and five female student participants to present or answer questions in the oral presentations, and compete in the races. Participants must be engineering students in the 2004-2005 academic year, and must have contributed to the canoe's design and construction.

Awards

A total of $9,000 in academic scholarships are awarded to the top three winning teams' undergraduate civil engineering program.

To be eligible to receive a scholarship, the team must represent the ASCE student chapter of an accredited civil engineering school. The top three schools receive scholarships in the following amounts:

First place overall winning team—$5,000 scholarship and a trophy
Second place overall winning team—$2,500 scholarship and a trophy
Third place overall winning team—$1,500 scholarship and a trophy

Plaques are awarded to the fourth and fifth place overall winners and to first place winners in nine categories including:

Best design paper
Women's slalom/endurance race
Women's sprint race
Best oral presentation
Men's slalom/endurance race
Men's sprint race
Best display
Co-ed sprint race
Best final product

The team with the best time in the co-ed sprint race receives a plaque in honor of R. John Craig, a former ASCE Committee on Student Services member, who was a driving force behind the first ASCE National Concrete Canoe Competition. Craig passed away a few months before seeing his dream come to fruition. In addition, a special plaque in honor of Anthony P. (Tony) Chrest, a champion of the concrete canoe competitions on both the regional and national level, is awarded to the team that demonstrates superior and creative use of technology and materials in the construction of their concrete canoe. The winner of this award is selected by Degussa Admixtures, Inc.

Ribbons are awarded to teams finishing second through fifth in each event. Each team receives a commemorative plaque for their participation in the 2005 National Concrete Canoe Competition, and all registered team members receive a certificate of participation.

For more information contact Joan Buhrman at 703-295-6406 or 571-213-3812 (cell phone), or Kelly Mawby at 216-839-7071 or 216-780-5964 (cell phone). Information can also be obtained at http://www.asce.org/inside/nccc2005 (http://www.asce.org/inside/nccc2005).

The National Concrete Canoe Competition is organized by the American Society of Civil Engineers and is funded by the generous support of Degussa Admixtures, Inc., with additional sponsorship provided by Baker Concrete Construction, CEMEX, Pennoni Associates, Inc., SI Concrete Systems, 3M Specialty Materials Division and U.S. Silica Company. This year's event is hosted by Clemson University.

[scogin918]

Ahh Clemson. Their mascot is in my avatar.

Quick question though. Are most of you using the stock distribution block/valve that is underneath the master cylinder or have you done away with it and fed the brake lines straight to the master cylinder?

[73z-6sp]

Im still using mine. Not sure if that is correct or not but it works!