Interesting dinner guest last night

[Damn True]

A very good friend of mine who lives north of Detroit is visiting CA to attend the Sea Otter Classic bicycle races in Monterey, CA. She brought a friend with her who is also a cyclist but has a rather interesting profession.

She is a surface designer at the design studio for GM and she recently worked on............the new Camaro! In fact she is currently working on some of the production changes for the various different models.

Extremely interesting to hear how the process worked and how and why they went with different design features and themes.

TRapin, you might know her, but I couldn't for the life of me recall your actual name. PM me and I will tell you her name.

[elcamino80]

Tony Rapin. Its in the members list.

[CAMAROBOY69]

Cool hopefully they are re-designing it more like the 69. I know I know beating an old horse. Couldnt find "beating horse" smiley so this will do. :hammer:

[Damn True]

Cool hopefully they are re-designing it more like the 69. I know I know beating an old horse. Couldnt find "beating horse" smiley so this will do. :hammer:

Nope.

There is a damn good reason for not doing it too.

[trapin]

True, I looked her up on the org chart here at work. I've seen her around over there, but don't know her personally. She's a sculptor...not a surface designer. I'll explain in my PM.

I can't comment on the Camaro stuff.

[TA219]

I bet it would be interesting to hear some of the stories that go along with the new Camaro... I figured they wouldnt go with the 69 lines and probably wont go with the slits in front of the rear wheel because it will save $$ when it comes to stamping out panels

[ssdeuce]

Nope.

There is a damn good reason for not doing it too.

Ok you have perked my curiosity so give us something.:attn:

[Damn True]

Because they are trying to be LESS short-sighted than they've (and other mfr's) been in the past. They used a more modern car with design elements from previous generations. This will allow them far more freedom to evolve the car going forward than what is allowed by the Mustang or Challenger. Where do you go with the Challenger? 1974?

Beyond that, they realize that the number of people who want a new 1969 Camaro is far smaller than the number of people who want a BMW 3-series, G-35, IS-300 etc. That is the market they are looking to pull share from.

[SHANE 73Z]

Beyond that, they realize that the number of people who want a new 1969 Camaro is far smaller than the number of people who want a BMW 3-series, G-35, IS-300 etc. That is the market they are looking to pull share from.

That is scary, as I think this leads to a high content/price point, especially with the traditional "packages" GM has put together. PLEASE lord let there be a 1LE version..............

[Larry Callahan]

I heard a rumor they had one that looked too close to the original and it was scrapped by the head mucky mucks in favor of the current design. I SO would have like to have seen it.

[TonyL]

the key word here is, and I'll say it again, is EVOLUTION. the first camaro wasn't born a 69 either. It evolved to it.

Ford picked the best a mustang has ever looked to start its design. Now it has nowhere to go design wise. The camaro will probably evolve to look more 69ish when sales of the new car slow. Its just common business sense.

[ACEFOOTER]

Did she comment if the Forum(s) feedback effects design changes?

[David Pozzi]

The town if full of muddy bicycleists! :)
I was supposed to run the Lola at Laguna Seca Wed, but chickened out due to all the rain, the track had flowing water in three turns, but there were some brave souls out there slogging around the track in the rain!

Don't get her in trouble by revealing any secrets!!! She could lose her job!

[Damn True]

Did she comment if the Forum(s) feedback effects design changes?

Not really. Honestly, we are a statistical fraction of a microscopic portion of the market.

[Damn True]

the key word here is, and I'll say it again, is EVOLUTION. the first camaro wasn't born a 69 either. It evolved to it.

Ford picked the best a mustang has ever looked to start its design. Now it has nowhere to go design wise. The camaro will probably evolve to look more 69ish when sales of the new car slow. Its just common business sense.

nail - head

[96Z28SS]

The whole evolution that everyone mentions is a bad myth.

I mean look at car that changed body styles in the past. they don't evolve the change. If Gm wanted to do a retro 1969 camaro and run it for 6 years then come out with a new model. NO where is it written in stone that the design has to evolve from it.

Lets look at the 1969 Camaro, how did it evolve into the 1970 Camaro? It didn't, it completely changed. It went in a different direction exterior and interior. The same could be done now with a 2009 Camaro.

1970 Charger. How did that evolve to a 1971 Charger?

Body styles can change and not evolve.

[zbugger]

The whole evolution that everyone mentions is a bad myth.

I mean look at car that changed body styles in the past. they don't evolve the change. If Gm wanted to do a retro 1969 camaro and run it for 6 years then come out with a new model. NO where is it written in stone that the design has to evolve from it.

Lets look at the 1969 Camaro, how did it evolve into the 1970 Camaro? It didn't, it completely changed. It went in a different direction exterior and interior. The same could be done now with a 2009 Camaro.

1970 Charger. How did that evolve to a 1971 Charger?

Body styles can change and not evolve.
That's BS right there. The 67 Camaro evolved into the 68, and then into the 69. Mostly subtle changes at first, and then a major restyle. Again in 70 on through to 81. Same basic style, some evolutionary changes. Then a major restyle in 82, then subtle evolutionary changes. See where I'm going? Damn near EVERY car does that. Not many noticeable changes. Look at current Honda Accords. The main difference between 04's and 06's is the tail lights. There's more subtle changes as well, but not as noticeable. And it's the same body style. Look at past Chevy trucks as well. You'll see it all over the place.

[Damn True]

Not to mention, a complete re-design is VERY VERY expensive. GM is not in any condition right now to set themselves up for a complete re-design in 3-4 years. Far better from a business standpoint to have a platform that can evolve over ten years rather than having to reinvent the wheel every 4.

[Kenova]

Originally Posted by Damn True
Beyond that, they realize that the number of people who want a new 1969 Camaro is far smaller than the number of people who want a BMW 3-series, G-35, IS-300 etc. That is the market they are looking to pull share from.


That is scary, as I think this leads to a high content/price point, especially with the traditional "packages" GM has put together. PLEASE lord let there be a 1LE version..............
Good examples of cars GM is already doing it with are the new Cadillacs and the Corvette. While they may still be a little pricey for some of us, they represent good value when compared to some of the higher priced cars they have targeted as competition.
When and if the general public clues in, GM will be kicking some big dollar butts.
Ken
:hmm: I just ran the spell-check. It said that "Camaro" was wrong and should be replaced with "Camry":lmao: I don't think so!!!!!

[EFI69Cam]

Beyond that, they realize that the number of people who want a new 1969 Camaro is far smaller than the number of people who want a BMW 3-series, G-35, IS-300 etc. That is the market they are looking to pull share from.

The GTO did AWESOME in that market.

There is no way the people who buy those cars would even look at a car called Camaro. They would not even buy a Chevy.

The Challanger will succeed as a low volume niche market vehicle, just like the Viper.

GM has not yet lost their toothpaste marketing people.

[trapin]

I assure you...the "toothpaste" people have moved on.

A word about this evolution stuff and having the car evolve....

With as many companies doing body kits for Mustang and other cars...will Camaro even NEED to evolve? It's almost as if those companies will do the evolving for us. Kris Horten did a really cool edit to the concept photos with an RS hidden headlight version. I thought that might be a cool mid-level enhancement to that car several years after it's released but who's to say that someone won't beat us to it?

....it's a brave new world.

[TonyL]

what? where is this kris horton render and why have I (we) not seen it?

No holding out on us!

I'll be shocked, SHOCKED if the 90 camaro doesn't evolve to look more 69ish as it's offered by GM as time rolls on. They'll get a few years changing headlight and taillight designs ('al a 68 camaro) and then alter the nose and rear to look more 69ish late, when the car has proven itself, and demand for a "true" RS/SS camaro has reached fever pitch.

oh, and I think the G35 is the sexyest thing ever, but I'd buy a camaro if i had the choise. So i guess that statement isnt always true.

[Charley Lillard]

""Far better from a business standpoint to have a platform that can evolve over ten years rather than having to reinvent the wheel every 4.""

My understanding is the platform is very flexible so things can be changed easily. They started on a 69 looking car but decided to go modern. So we know the same platform can support either the 69 look or the modern look. I think their biggest mistake is not doing the 69 look. It can evolve without retooling everything. Let is evolve into a 2nd gen look if the public wants it. If I was running GM and there was this much debate over 2 different design themes, I would sure as hell build one of each and let the public tell me what they want. But on the path we are on we will never know. Pretty sad I think.

[TonyL]

i dont think so charlie. Im betting the new version of the camaro will last alot longer than three years. (67,8&9) now they have a platform that can start out looking like it does and morph into the 69 version later, if it has to. (it'll have to.) Instead of the other way around.

Lets hope the public buys enough of them so the platform stays viable long enough to force GM to give us what we want.

and why the public isnt given a multiple choice is so far beyond me that I haven't the word for it. Show the public some drawings and ask. Its THAT simple GM. STOP PUTTING ALL YOUR EGGS IN ONE BASKET.

[96Z28SS]

The days where the Big Three changed the look of the car every year is over. 67 68 69 Camaro were all different. BAck in the 70's they kept the styling maybe 3 years. Now they keep the style anywhere from 5-7 years
Lets look at the 3rd gen 1982 - 1992 thats 11 years of production on the same style. Sure they offered different packages throught the years Iroc-Z and the RS option they changed the interiors a bit and they the ground effects, but the style was no different for 11 years.
The 4th gen. 1993-2002. ten years of the same style. 1993-1996 no changes, 1997 it got a different tail light and different dash and center console. Then in 1998 they changed the front fenders and bumper and headlights and hood till 2002.

A retro style could easily evolve like the previous generations did you change a headlight hood treatment and its good for a few more years.
A retro stlye car could last with slight changes 10 years. How long has the new beetle been out? How long has the PT cruiser been out?
A retro style car right now could get sales that GM needs to help turn it around. Then it could change body style completely cause 10 years is a good run.

[zbugger]

You're talking about the HHR there. The retro PT Cruiser style. That car I see being around for a bit.

[Damn True]

""Far better from a business standpoint to have a platform that can evolve over ten years rather than having to reinvent the wheel every 4.""

My understanding is the platform is very flexible so things can be changed easily. They started on a 69 looking car but decided to go modern. So we know the same platform can support either the 69 look or the modern look. I think their biggest mistake is not doing the 69 look. It can evolve without retooling everything. Let is evolve into a 2nd gen look if the public wants it. If I was running GM and there was this much debate over 2 different design themes, I would sure as hell build one of each and let the public tell me what they want. But on the path we are on we will never know. Pretty sad I think.

If you don't think they've researched it to high hell you are naieve. I understand where you are coming from Charlie, but quite simply you are in the minority. There is a copy of a 67 Mustang on the market and sales are already falling off sharply (or they wouldn't be offering incentives and rebates). There is going to be a copy of a 72 Challenger...a poor selling car when it was new. There are not enough guys like you in the world to support a copy of a 69 Camaro in addition to the above.
It just makes no business sense and no amount of wanting it on your part is going to change that. There simply isn't enough market out there to support it. As much as some of you would like to think that tons of people think like you, the simple fact is that they dont.

In order for this car to be sucessful it needs to draw back customers that have gone off to BMW, Lexus, Infinity etc. on the basis of value, performance, style & reliability.

A carbon copy of a 45 year old American car dosen't scream reliable to the average Lexus owner.

People aren't buying a PT Loser because it looks like an 1940 plymouth panel van. They are buying it because it's cute and different. A copy of a 69 Camaro won't be cute and different, it will be a copy of a 69 Camaro. That simply wont fly, there aren't enough people out there that will want that.

[96Z28SS]

People aren't buying a PT Loser because it looks like an 1940 plymouth panel van. They are buying it because it's cute and different. A copy of a 69 Camaro won't be cute and different, it will be a copy of a 69 Camaro. That simply wont fly, there aren't enough people out there that will want that.

IF people don't want a more retro look then why did the Challenger get more votes than the Camaro for the People Choice Award at the NAIAS? The people voted and the answer is right there for GM to look at, making it more retro is the way to go.

[Damn True]

Wow, dude are you serious?
Because the people at NAIAS are mostly auto employees, serious auto-geeks and auto media. They are hardly representative of the American public as a whole. The average consumer dosen't go to car shows and sure as heck dosen't subscribe to 5 different auto related magazines the way most of us do.

[Charley Lillard]

You sound like a guy that has been sitting in too many meetings listening to each other instead of listening to the customer....But since we will never see the retro version we will never know which car would sell best.

[TonyL]

They are hardly representative of the American public as a whole.

I'll bite. Those people are the press that tells people what to like. If the auto press says something is good, it is, to the average consumer.

I'll just add that if for some unknown reason the car isnt shaped more "in common" with the 69, the folks at chevy are insane.

The average person thinks of that car when the word camaro is spoken.

[Kenova]

The average person thinks of that car when the word camaro is spoken.

:hmm: I always think of my '75. Big bumpers and all.:dunno:
Ken

[Damn True]

I'll bite. Those people are the press that tells people what to like. If the auto press says something is good, it is, to the average consumer.

I'll just add that if for some unknown reason the car isnt shaped more "in common" with the 69, the folks at chevy are insane.

The average person thinks of that car when the word camaro is spoken.

For you and I that is true, and that image is positive. However to the majority of the demo that Chevy needs to attract if they want to be successful with this car, "Camaro" is not a positive image. The avg. 30-50 year old with $$ views the Camaro as a car for guys with Black Sabbath t-shirts.

If Chevy builds a 69 they reinforce that. If they build something different that reflects a bit of the past they stand a chance of changing that stigma.

[trapin]

Retro or not...I think it's a beautiful car. And with the LS2 and 6 speed it should be a blast to drive.

They'll get my money....unless Ghaalib Ibraheem and his $3 an hour wage don't take my job away from me first.

[EFI69Cam]

:hmm: I always think of my '75. Big bumpers and all.:dunno:
Ken

Most people think of a guy with a mullet who just parked his 78 z28 in a tree when they hear Camaro.

My in-laws are typical when it comes to cars, Toyota can do no wrong, Consumer Reports is fair and subjective etc. They think I'm messed in the head for driving Chevys and horror of horror, making their daughter drive one.

GM will never win this market back, they lost it in the 70s, they need to concentrate on what the car guys want, and retro is what they want.

The concept has grown on me though, but I don't think I would ever buy one. The 2007 Tahoe is more what I need.

[BuddyP]

My in-laws are typical when it comes to cars, Toyota can do no wrong, Consumer Reports is fair and subjective etc. They think I'm messed in the head for driving Chevys and horror of horror, making their daughter drive one.
What's sad about what you just wrote is.... this is modern day America. Bias media stiff basing the domestics on the mid '90's, and soccer mom's and dad's that won't buy anything other than what CR tells them to buy.

[mr5231]

In order for this car to be sucessful it needs to draw back customers that have gone off to BMW, Lexus, Infinity etc. on the basis of value, performance, style & reliability.

For the most part, have past Camaro owners gone on to buy BMW, Lexus, Infinity etc..??? :dunno:

Personally, I think the camaro will be viewed as third car in the family or something car guys buy for a weekend toy. BMW, Lexus, Infinity are cars people drive everyday. Therefore, I say go retro. Sell as many to the car guys as you can. If GM wants to dip into the BMW, Lexus or even Toyota owners then don't do it with a Camaro. I guess I kind of viewed the CTS more in that market. For the most part, you aren't going to get BMW and Lexus drivers into Camaros. This is my opinion.

[69rs]

:hmm: I always think of my '75. Big bumpers and all.:dunno:
Ken
Didn't they stop building Camaros in '69? :hmm: