GM's black Tuesday is today.

[TonyL]

They fired so many white collar jobs today or demoted them to level sevens, they had to hire a taxi service and put the local rental car service on standby to deal with all the guys who lost company cars.


GM fires hundreds of white-collar workers

DETROIT, March 28 (UPI) -- General Motors Corp. has begun firing hundreds of white-collar workers in what employees have dubbed "Black Tuesday."

Short-timers at GM's Tech Center in Warren, for example, were escorted from their offices to one of about three dozen conference rooms and told they were history, the Detroit Free Press reported.

The layoffs come weeks after the ailing automaker reported losing $10.6 billion last year.

Cutbacks were apparently first hitting the upper ranks, what is called the eighth level. Workers at that level have company cars so GM arranged for a taxi service to take them home, workers said.

A spokesman for one rental car agency in the Detroit area said GM had put them on standby for Tuesday. "They know we can accommodate them at any moment. We do group moves for GM, Ford and Chrysler all the time," he said.


Rough. You go to work, find out you've been demoted, got a pay cut, lost the company car, and have to go buy a new car just to get to work tomorrow.

[formula]

Wonder if they'll be buying GM's?

It's a rough rough situation, but needed to be done.

[TA219]

That must have been a kick to the nuts but I dont know how any "Tall companies" with layer upon layer of managment can last. It sounds like they are doing what needs to be done :)

[Northern Goat]

Maybe GM will give them a deal to purchase thier old company cars back. We b**ch enough about unions and inefficiencies, it is nice to see management is not immune.

[trapin]

Actually the part about the taxis is false. People with cars (supervisors) are being allowed to keep them for a set amount of time. They will also keep their health care coverage for the length of their severance pay (1 month for each year of service).

[StRacerDuke]

10 years of poor management and not showing a profit, I'm surprised it took so long. They've been selling off their profitable assets for the last three quarters to provide them with enough cash flow just to cover the overhead. On top of this the union's are refusing to budge, lol.

As much as I love GM, it needs a major overhall from the top down. As an investor I still wouldn't touch their stock with a ten foot pole. Maybe with a little skilled management and 18-24 months it may look like a better deal.

I wonder if the new camaro is screwed yet?

[harshman]

When a company is forced to pay retired workers money and provide health care for all and very high wages it is destined to fail. Like it or not this is why unions will inevitably kill a company. Forcing it to no longer be competitive with the competition via labor spells doom. I may piss a few guys off and that is not my desire; however I am a business owner and I know that overhead will always be the number one issue when it comes to survival.

[RaceMan]

Alot of it is at the top, the ceos and poeople around the top get so much money its sick , they know they won't be there for ever so they take the money and run

[vintageracer]

"They take the money and run".

Which is what each one of us would do if we had the same opportunity!!!!!

[paulk68]

this just makes me sad to think that gm might not be around long enough to produce a new camaro.

[Steve1968LS2]

this just makes me sad to think that gm might not be around long enough to produce a new camaro.

GM isn't going anywhere.. They have finally just seen the light in regards to the "big picture"

[Richz68]

It is a necessary evil and fact of business..... like a fat kid who wants to make the wrestling squad; you got to cut fat to make weight, All in hopes that you will be good enough to first compete and eventually beat your opponent(s).

GM is BIG..... probably waaaaay too big especially for the market share and the interest in them anymore. I am looking into getting a new car and I really was blown away at literally how many car manufacturers there really are when you start looking for it.... and there really all offering a good product with a few exceptions.

[96Z28SS]

GM should just close its door and claim bankrupcy and Come back as a new company with no more unions. The unions is what helps kill a company. They would still have a work force, its either no job or work as a regular employee.

[GBodyGMachine]

My Whole Family Works For GM or Ford(mainly uncles). Most of them are being offered early retirement packages, $140,000 if you drop you health care with GM or $35,000 and GM continues to provide you with health care. Not Sure what Ford is offering. Some of my Uncles Friends are taking the $140,000, because their wifes health plans cover them, taking the money and moving the hell out of Michigan. Detroit is not longer the motor city.

Jeff

[shmoov69]

When a company is forced to pay retired workers money and provide health care for all and very high wages it is destined to fail. Like it or not this is why unions will inevitably kill a company. Forcing it to no longer be competitive with the competition via labor spells doom. I may piss a few guys off and that is not my desire; however I am a business owner and I know that overhead will always be the number one issue when it comes to survival.

Amen Brother!! Preach on!!:usa: What? You think that $50+ per hour is too much?!?!?! I heard that they are having to pay "employees" to do nothing because their Union contract is not up. That is just hear-say, but sounds like the thugs to me!

[Jim68nC]

my mother is retired Delphi (30+yrs GM, A/C Delco - Delphi) I guess it ended up as. sold everything in MI a few yrs back, moved to FL (typical) golf course community et all. she recently had to go back to work as she will be loosing some (all?) her pension/medical.

All too familiar I know....Airline industry been in it deep with playing the bankruptcy game to clear their pension debts too.

Nedless to say I grew up GM, however they seriously need to pull there head out of their backside. Trim the fat/execs/union (you name it) and get back to at least compete with the domestic players (Ford/Chrysler) on the performance/retro front. (only thing i would consider buying from them again is the vette and that is only if i get the GMS price again - hehe); what else they have to offer me? Poorly styled truck...maybe at one time, but nah. Dad just has to get over the Cummins pwr'd Ram in the driveway..;-)

GM's slogan 'Like A Rock' comes to mind though...in their heads.

:machine: :machine: :machine: :machine: :machine:

[BonzoHansen]

I heard that they are having to pay "employees" to do nothing because their Union contract is not up. That is just hear-say, but sounds like the thugs to me!It's called a job bank. Bad decision many years ago.

[jp455]

...but I don't think GM has seen the light at all! Yeah, they are doing what needs to be done, but this is just duct tape. The reason they are in the hole is because they make an inferior product! We can argue all we want about how awesome the new Z06 is and all that but GM and the other big two are making terrible cars.

For example, I went to look at a new 300 SRT the other day for my dad. My 2000 VW Passat has an interior that is light years away! The plastics in the 300 are hard, theres no head room in the back, literally had to put my head sideways or scootch down on the seat, and I'm only 6 foot, I don't have to do that in my VW. And the new VWs are even more far ahead in terms of quality. Some people might say "yeah but they are afforable" well, a new passat is 28k. Yeah, all these new retro cars have great engines, and chassis, but the quality is not there where it counts for a daily driver.

I'm sorry to say but the big three need to make some HUGE steps forward to stop the hemorraging. I hate to say it cause I truly much rather have a muscle car, old school car any day...but the consumer needs to begin complaining about this stuff, not just complaining about the charger having four doors instead of two

Manuel Scettri

[67LS1T56]

GM is so poorly managed , I always use the analgy the best 2 job in the world is beeing head of GM and weather man. You can run down a company and be wrong all they about weather and still have a job.

One thing I always wondered about GM droping the Impalas which almost every police and cab driver drove one. Also they complain that they can not sell car. Of course they can not sell when they are way behind the competition as far as the quality goes.

[syborg tt]

Like it or not this is why unions will inevitably kill a company. Forcing it to no longer be competitive with the competition via labor spells doom.

just to give an example of Union Doom.

For the last five years we have had GM Employee's (about 150 of them) sitting in a 50,000 square foot building behind our shop doing absolutly nothing. GM can't let them go so they have to pay them 95% of there salary. So they decided to rent a building for them to come sit at during the regular work hours of 7 to 3. It's not like they di nothing. They planted a very nice garden, practice there golf swing, they made a little putting green, horse shoe pit, picnic tables, bq grille for there daily bbq and did i mention there daily exercise program of walking around our building.

Some of these people tell me there are at least five more of these facilities in the area. I can't image what this is costing GM.

No wonder my Tahoe cost so much money.

[harshman]

I know it is easy to jump all over GM about their cars but the fact is that the other auto manufactures are struggling just the same – it is just that GM is the biggest. While some of their cars had little to be desired, the fact is that these companies spend lots of time and research to give what the general consumer wants. Chevrolet's quality today is surprisingly strong. In fact I am going to buy a '07 Tahoe this week and was blown away by the engineering that went into this thing.

Yes they, like many other companies, have management difficulties but again it is the overhead that is the throbbing sore here. I'm not going political here – the fact is that the most companies considering buying an existing company with union labor will run because of the issues involved with unions. The most recent port deal comes to mind. American companies want nothing to do with it.

[syborg tt]

i to almost bought an 07 Tahoe however i chose not to buy simple bacause of the 3rd seats have to be removed instead of folding down flat. That is my bigest complaint that i have with my 05 and i can't believe they didn't fix it with the redisgn. Now my wife want to buy the Honda sport untility.

[trapin]

Guys....it's not all about unions....there are other factors at play. And not all of them are our fault. We are fighting a war right now, not just with the Japanese manufacturers but a media machine in this country that is giving Japan far too much assistance with PR and a government that has the game slanted WAY in Japan's favor. Some of this stuff we're powerless to fight. An unfair stigma has been attached to us that we build crap and the Japanese can do no wrong. Do some research, look at the J.D Powers numbers. We are right on their coat tails and in some areas kicking their ass. The media just refuses to talk about it because it goes against their grain of thinking; "Japanese good...GM bad".

Our 900 series trucks debut this Fall and I guarantee they will be the best selling truck in '07.

[syborg tt]

Noting against GM Trucks but 45,000 for a Tahoe is a little out of Control. I can go buy a new Honda that get's better gas mileage and it's 10 grand cheaper. Personally i don't have a extra 10 grand just to give away. Plus the operating cost on a Tahoe is far greater as the best mileage that i can get out of my Tahoe around town is a wopping 10.

[harshman]

Guys....it's not all about unions....there are other factors at play. And not all of them are our fault. We are fighting a war right now, not just with the Japanese manufacturers but a media machine in this country that is giving Japan far too much assitance with PR and a government that has the game slanted WAY in Japan's favor. Some of this stuff we're powerless to fight. An unfair stigma has been attached to us that we build crap and the Japanese can do no wrong. Do some research, look the J.D Powers numbers. We are right on their coat tails and in some areas kicking their ass. The media just refuses to talk about it because it goes against their grain of thinking; "Japanes good...GM bad".

Our 900 series trucks debut this Fall and I guarantee they will be the best selling truck in '07.

I agree that there is this attitude towards US auto. I also agree that the US' engineering and design is far superior to the stigma of an '80's type car.


And FWIW, the new Tahoe is getting around 20 mpg.

[rob07002]

Without question the media is ... Dare I Say It... AntiAmerican, when it comes to autos. I saw somewhere that for the fist time ever the top 10 autos in one of the rags, motortrend or the like, not one was a US made vehicle.. Now PLEASE!!!! you mean to tell me that in the sport compact the Mustang didn't win, and in the truck and sport ute catagory, again PLEASE!!! GM needed a spring cleanung badly. I hate to see anbody out of work, but I'm sure there was alot of dead weight around the halls. I love my 2000 GMC, and will be buying an American made car for the forseeable future, sorry Motortrend, you can't brain wash me!

Funny story:
I was driving back from South Carolina a few years ago and hit a BAD mutha of a bad storm on 95. Its almost black out and then it starts to HAIL! I'm pi$$ed driving 5mph thinking that my Denali is getting F-ed up big time.. Well once we passed the storm alot of people including my self pulled into the nearest gas station to Pi$$ and inspect the damage. Well I'm looking on the hood, roof, etc and NOTHING not 1 ding... I then look over at my fellow drivers to see the look of horror at their imports all beat to *****. I mean WOW, body shops must have been having a party for weeks after that.... Anyway since then I love to hear people talking about the quality of American cars...

[Steve1968LS2]

Guys....it's not all about unions....there are other factors at play. And not all of them are our fault. We are fighting a war right now, not just with the Japanese manufacturers but a media machine in this country that is giving Japan far too much assitance with PR and a government that has the game slanted WAY in Japan's favor. Some of this stuff we're powerless to fight. An unfair stigma has been attached to us that we build crap and the Japanese can do no wrong. Do some research, look the J.D Powers numbers. We are right on their coat tails and in some areas kicking their ass. The media just refuses to talk about it because it goes against their grain of thinking; "Japanes good...GM bad".

Our 900 series trucks debut this Fall and I guarantee they will be the best selling truck in '07.

I still can't believe that pile of crap called the Ridgeline got "TRUCK OF THE YEAR".. what a ugly looking and almost useless vehicle.. and it's not even selling good.. Yet they give it truck of the year :slap:

And all these amazing cars come out.. the C6, Z06, Magnum, etc.. and they give CAR OF THE YEAR to that shoebox called the civic..

So yes, I see your point.

[Steve1968LS2]

I agree that there is this attitude towards US auto. I also agree that the US' engineering and design is far superior to the stigma of an '80's type car.


And FWIW, the new Tahoe is getting around 20 mpg.

And my 300+HP 2000 SS Camaro got 27MPG!! yet they have a stigma of being a gas guzzler..

You would think that Honda, Toyota and Nissan don't even have service departments since thier stuff never breaks... lol

[Northern Goat]

i to almost bought an 07 Tahoe however i chose not to buy simple bacause of the 3rd seats have to be removed instead of folding down flat. That is my bigest complaint that i have with my 05 and i can't believe they didn't fix it with the redisgn. Now my wife want to buy the Honda sport untility.


Noting against GM Trucks but 45,000 for a Tahoe is a little out of Control. I can go buy a new Honda that get's better gas mileage and it's 10 grand cheaper. Personally i don't have a extra 10 grand just to give away. Plus the operating cost on a Tahoe is far greater as the best mileage that i can get out of my Tahoe around town is a wopping 10.

Your not comparing apples to apples. I'll assume you are talking about a Pilot.

A Tahoe is a TRUCK. The Pilot is a minivan.

Tahoe - full framed, Pilot unibody
Tahoe - RWD/ 4wd, Pilot FWD/ 4wd (who has ever heard of a FWD truck)
Tahoe - 320Hp, 340 lb/ft - V8, Pilot 244/240 - V6
Tahoe tows 8200 lbs, Pilot 4500 lbs.

That is like comparing a Ridgeline to my Avalanche. The Pilot is more Minivan than truck, maybe try comparing it to a Montana.

I have no business telling you how to spend your money, and I won't. But it is ass backwards comparisons like this that helps give GM and the other US Automakers a bad name.:thankyou:

[Steve Chryssos]

I bought a Honda Accord once. One of the biggest pieces of crap I ever owned The shifter once got jammed, a brake caliper siezed and interior parts fell off everyonce in a while. The steering vibrated non stop. Yes, the thing started up and ran each and every time. But that was not a plus. It simply meant that we kept the car longer than we should have. Driving that car was like some form of Japanese torture.

There are countless horror stories available for each and every brand and country of origin (or shall I say origin of corporation). Nonetheless GM must and will learn to adpt to the political climate and media machine. Their current actions seem like a good place to start.

[TonyL]

yeah. comparing a honda to a tahoe isn't even close to fair.

a tahoe/nissan aramada comparo maybe would be more fair.

The new tahoe is far better than its predecessor. And it's true that the media LOVES anything japanese. All the new ridgline is, is a shrunk down avalanche. When GM did it, they scoffed "what are they thinking?" Honda copied it and "TRUCK OF THE YEAR!! OMG!!"

just a fine example of what's wrong with the situation.
They introduce the element and it's "cute" we introduce the azteck and "ewwww"

[jp455]

Well like I said before, the issue isn't about quality. Sure, nowadays domestics are on par as far as reliability. But there is no way domestics can compare with imports from any country as far as the quality of interiors. If we look at GM in particular why does the inside of the corvete still have cheapo plastics in the cabin?? Its not a a cheap car at 70k plus...a 38k infiniti has an interior that blows it away!

And as far as the other manufacturers struggling...well, then how come toyota, and nissan are posting record ales? And toyota is a hairs breadth away from becoming the biggest manufacturer. Jeez, even ferrari, and porsche with their ultra expensive cars are posting record sales!

Again, why buy a tahoe, when toyota is way nicer inside? With all the technical expertise that the big three have this should be a piece of cake!

Also, the media being anti american?? How many covers has the 300, new camaro, and challenger been on? And all the talk about those cars are extremely positive. Most of the talk that is negative is about small cars, which the us DOESN"T do very well, and luxury sedans, which again, what do we have, the 300/charger with their crappy interiors?

Manuel Scettri

[syborg tt]

Driving that car was like some form of Japanese torture.

okay i still can't stop laughing at this comment

[harshman]

Again, why buy a tahoe, when toyota is way nicer inside? With all the technical expertise that the big three have this should be a piece of cake!


I beg to differ on the new Tahoe's interior and to make a blanket statement that the quality of interiors that the us produces pales to that of the imports is ignorant.

[jp455]

Well, then I beg to differ as well. Lets look at the corvette for example, which is supposed to be the flagship for gm cars. Now lets compare that with a porsche boxster. The boxster is about 55k, the sat nav mounting looks much better, the plastic are less hard, and "plasticey" as in they feel more like rubber than plastic, and so on. Now, this isn't a matter of preference, its pretty obvious from just looking. Of course when I say this I don't mean that ALL cars made by the big three are bad in the interior department but the majority are. Cadillac for example makes a very nice interior.

The point is, interiors in much cheaper cars are better than in american cars that are way pricier.

[rob07002]

Cadillac for example makes a very nice interior.

The point is, interiors in much cheaper cars are better than in american cars that are way pricier.

Last time I checked I beleive Caddies were considered a luxury car brand, yet you say in your previous post the US doesn't build a nice lux car?:hmm:

I think the big three have some really fantastic cars on the market right now, and I'm not saying they all should be praised and be the "**** of the year" , but there is a clear bias toward imports and against US manufacturers lately, for whatever reason.

[jp455]

Well lets see...I said

Of course when I say this I don't mean that ALL cars...

Which means that there are exceptions!

[TonyL]

Well, then I beg to differ as well. Lets look at the corvette for example, which is supposed to be the flagship for gm cars. Now lets compare that with a porsche boxster.

ok. Lets.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2006/03/2003PorscheBoxsterInteriorDash1024x768-1.jpg

I see a "better" stereo in the vette. a bigger screen. and a cheepo K mart blaupunkt in the porsche. I see the same hard black plastic bezels on both cars although the vettes look more thought out.

pedals? vette
shift knob? porsche
Wheel? tie.

one could go on. the dash is made of the same soft fake leather plastic as the german car.

its subjective.

[Northern Goat]

I had a professor once who spent a whole semester bragging about the Jap cars, the combination of me being a loud mouth and a HATER of Japanese cars lead to some lively discussions. The last day of his class he produced photocopies of Consumer report's long term quality stats where the Japanese cars were all at the top. I tried all year to get him and the others in these lectures to understand that 'the media is biased'.
Well he proved my point that day when I asked him how a Mazda Mx5 was in the top 20 and a Ford Probe was in the 60's. Especially when they were designed together, use the same parts (with the exception of some suspension and body parts) and are built by the same, people in the same plant. I think I found a few other cars that fit this profile. Well he was too arrogant to admit I was right :doh: but I got a lot of high 5s from others in the lecture.

[TonyL]

and anyone who can find fault with the following fit and finish, choice of materials or anything is flat out lieing. This is awesome. To deny that this is anything but the best interior of any SUV is just burying your head in the sand.

every other manufacurer, this is GM putting you on notice.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Im looking at YOU japan.

[Damn True]

You make some valid points but, I for one would prefer that you use the word Japanese.



I had a professor once who spent a whole semester bragging about the Jap cars, the combination of me being a loud mouth and a HATER of Jap cars lead to some lively discussions. The last day of his class he produced photocopies of Consumer report's long term quality stats where the Jap cars where all at the top. I tried all year to get him and the others in these lectures to understand that 'the media is biased'.
Well he proved my point that day when I asked him how a Mazda Mx5 was in the top 20 and a Ford Probe was in the 60's. Especially when they were designed together, use the same parts (with the exception of some suspension and body parts) and are built by the same, people in the same plant. I think I found a few other cars that fit this profile. Well he was too arrogant to admit I was right :doh: but I got a lot of high 5s from others in the lecture.

[jp455]

Well lets compare apples to apples...the porsche doesn't have the sat nav which gives it the bigger screen. Look at the gaps between the panels, the vettes are way bigger, and rounder, not as tight or clean. What is up with the vettes AC? Looks like playschools "my first AC". The silver center console looks cheaply painted. Not to mention that the silver trim on the steering wheel doesn't even have an even gap all around! And again, we are comparing a car that costs 70k plus (the vette) with one that costs 55k. The differences are there, especially for a car that costs 15k more!

Now, funny thing is I would much rather have a Z06 than a Boxster, but this is exactly the reason GM has the stigma it has today.

[Northern Goat]

You make some valid points but, I for one would prefer that you use the word Japanese.

I apologize to anyone I may have offended, I was using the term as a short form, since I don't type very well. Again no offense was meant and the issue will be rectified. Editing previous post also.

[syborg tt]

No doubt the new Tahoe has one of the nicest interiors. My major complaint is the blanking 3rd row. I can't stand having to remove the row just in case my wife want to go buy something big. The removable 3rd row is a pain in the back side. Look at Chrysler they even have fold down flat seats in there mini-vans because they to learned that people were complaining about those seats.

just and FYI - i currently own 5 gm's and have never owned a Japanese car.

[harshman]

i'm guessing that the tahoe's 3rd seat issue is one of fitament as the frame rails and spare tire and fuel tank are below so as to not allow much room for a hidden third seat. when you can tow 8,500 lbs in a small package things tend to get in the way.

[syborg tt]

i'm guessing that the tahoe's 3rd seat issue is one of fitament as the frame rails and spare tire and fuel tank are below so as to not allow much room for a hidden third seat. when you can tow 8,500 lbs in a small package things tend to get in the way.

Ford somehow solved the problem with there Full Size and it's even a power fold down seat.

[TonyL]

syborg tt easy answer is get a suburban. HUGE space out back.

Back to jp455 though. It's impossible to tell from the pic the evenness of the gaps in the steering wheel. Some would say that the design of the AC is simplistic, minimalist even. I like it. the porsches looks way to complicated. Again its all up to you. I like the painted plastic. its a design element where the porsche has none. But your statements are exactly the point of the people who complain that bias is the problem.

If the dashes were swapped out, there are many people who'd go. "why did GM complicate the A/C controls like that?" If it aint broke dont fix it. Look how clean the porsches is. Simple. That's how it's done."

[Steve1968LS2]

Hey, I just got to write the news story on the death of the SSR.. it follows on the heals of the story I wrote on the death of the GTO..

I would think GM would get the idea of what DOESN'T sell..

To be fair.. both Ford and Chrysler both have had thier sales failures (ie, Thunderbird and Prowler)

[jp455]

Its not a matter of complication. I'm all for simplicity, but the AC unit on the vette looks terrible. Theres no labels on the knobs, and it just looks cheap...one thing is inexpensive, another cheap. Its all in the details. Even looking at the SUV interior you posted you can tell that that is much better looking.

And how can you say you can't tell about the gaps in the steering trim? Its obvious that the left bottom corner doesn't follow the contours of the hole, and the top right gap is noticeably bigger than the bottom right. I'm not making these things up!

Now how am I biased? I even said I would much ratehr buy a Z06 than a Boxster. If anything I like the vette better making me lean towards it more.

[trapin]

All the new ridgline is, is a shrunk down avalanche. When GM did it, they scoffed "what are they thinking?" Honda copied it and "TRUCK OF THE YEAR!! OMG!!"

just a fine example of what's wrong with the situation.
They introduce the element and it's "cute" we introduce the azteck and "ewwww"
Here's something to ponder; If Pontiac had made the Element and Honda the Aztek....which car would be "cute" and the other "ugly"?

And about that Avalan, er.. excuse me Ridgeline...I have a question. If you have a load of topsoil in the back and you get a flat tire.....how do you get to the spare which is under the bed?

[Overkill]

And how can you say you can't tell about the gaps in the steering trim? Its obvious that the left bottom corner doesn't follow the contours of the hole, and the top right gap is noticeably bigger than the bottom right. I'm not making these things up!

And the Porsche has a huge gap at the points on the crossbar on the steering wheel, but a narrow one at the base. The stereo in it sticks out further than the A/C does and the gap along the right side of the stereo - A/C cluster isn't consistent.

[Northern Goat]

As a person who is on his 2nd Avalanche, soon to be 3rd (once new interior is available). I take a great deal of offense to the Av/Ridge. comparative. It is like comparing Angela Jole (sp.) to Janet Reno, completely different class all together.

[TonyL]

And how can you say you can't tell about the gaps in the steering trim? Its obvious that the left bottom corner doesn't follow the contours of the hole, and the top right gap is noticeably bigger than the bottom right. I'm not making these things up!

I think its an artifact of the perspective of the shot.

the knobs are labled like so:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[trapin]

As a person who is on his 2nd Avalanche, soon to be 3rd (once new interior is available). I take a great deal of offense to the Av/Ridge. comparative. It is like comparing Angela Jole (sp.) to Janet Reno, completely different class all together.
New interior? Are you talking about the '07 Avalanche? The whole vehicle is going to be brand new. It's off the 900 platform.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

I would love to see this puppy dropped with a set of soft-lip billet 22's all around.

[Northern Goat]

New interior? Are you talking about the '07 Avalanche? The whole vehicle is going to be brand new. It's off the 900 platform.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

I would love to see this puppy dropped with a set of soft-lip billet 22's all around.

You are right. You got me. :doh: See what your comparison has done to me. BTW, if that truck in the pic is a good looking in person, then it is leased on the spot.

[6'9"Witha69]

The Boxster's idiot lights look like some weird Batman throwback. Where are all the switches for them. Ugly. The Corvette has a much better laid out dash. Everything is right where you expect it to be. As for thr rest of GM's interiors, have you seen the new Impalas? Monte Carlo? To a lesser degree the Malibu? They have very nice interiors. The interior in my wife's Equinox is nice and interior room and feel was the deciding factor against a Pilot. Not that I would buy one, but the F-150s have nice interiors. As do many of Fords cars (Fusion for example). The fact is we are seeing the same bias here as we do in the media.
People have said the interior in my Siverado is "typical American". Fine by me. Why does a truck need wood grain and polished crap all over. It is a freakin' TRUCK! It's meant to haul crap! Go off road and run stuff over. I happen to enjoy driving it everyday. Nothing feels out of place. It is no LT but for a "base" interior feels good. The ridgeline is an example of a wannabe truck. Come on, a Unibody "Truck"?!?! WTF?! Oh wait, it has an open area in the back, must be a truck. Reminds me of a modern day Suby Brat!:pat:

[jp455]

Well I never said anything about trucks, I agree, a truck should be utilitarian, and look like a truck. I'm talking about a 70k dollar sports car here. Which is supposed to be the image vehicle for chevrolet.

As for the Ac knobs, I ment...knobs. Not buttons. The knobs have a blue, and a red stripe, thats it. So the blue right before the red is just as cool as the blue on the end? Like I said, its the small things. And yes, the stereo on the porsche does stick out further than the AC, but it does that on any car with a separate stereo, and AC unit. If the center was like on the vette with the sat nav it would be a nice big screen which was one of the complaints, so lets compare the same things here. As far as the gaps on the steering wheel, they are even side to side...also, idiot lights with switches? I missed something, aren't they idiot lights because they DON't have switches?

Again, I've said it several times already, I'm not saying ALL cars made in the states have bad interiors...I'm saying GM needs to get its act together and give a 70k dollar corvette a decent one! Besides, this whole discussion started because I've been saying that the big three need to pay attention to these things, and if they would have in the past maybe they wouldn't be in as much trouble as they are now. We have to remember that not only are the unions a problem, but also people buying less, and less from the big three. Why is it that the camry was the best selling car for so long? Gm/Ford/Chrysler couldn't make something to compete? I'm absolutely sure they could, but they didn't, and now its catch up time, but unfortunately it kind of tough when there are losses of 10 billion at GM.

[96Z28SS]

New interior? Are you talking about the '07 Avalanche? The whole vehicle is going to be brand new. It's off the 900 platform.



I would love to see this puppy dropped with a set of soft-lip billet 22's all around.

Trapin,
When is the 900 series trucks coming out and when is the suburban Avalanche coming out.
I already designed a fender flare for both the Tahoe and Yukon. Just wondering when the other models are coming out.

[TonyL]

the suburban will be out "spring" of 06. the avalanche is coming out in the "second quarter of 06"

Thats all i know for now.


Why is it that the camry was the best selling car for so long?

because of magazines like motortrend, car and driver, JD power, consumer reports etc. calling it the best thing EVAR!!1. All the while saying the malibu is crap. (even when it wasn't) Thats why.

[96Z28SS]

I'm hearing June for the Suburban.

[jp455]

Oh come on Tony!! You can't possibly believe that! That might be true if that was the case for one year, maybe two...but all those years in a row?? No way. If people saw that the car was crap after buying it I can assure you people would not buy another one. And theres no way that every single camry sold was sold to single individuals whose family/friends etc never owned one. Why do you think the F150 is the biggest selling vehicle for all those years, is that also because the magazines say its the greatest thing ever?? Its cause its a good car/truck, period.

[4MuscleMachines]

That column shifter on the Tahoe really sucks, it should have a console shifter, but all else looks good :smoke:

[TonyL]

actually i believe its a contributing factor. Ask yourself this. If the camery is so great and its "re-buyers" that are buying them, why? are there that many super satisfied customers that keep trading their perfectly good toyotas in?

Look at the big picture. Toyota has a (well deserved) great reputation. Bolstered by good press, and word of mouth. The malibu is also a great car. it has that whole "GM" thing hanging over its head. Bad press. not so great sales. All Im saying is that if that malibu had a toyota badge on it, it woulda been perceived better, and sold better.

Think Im crazy? look at the following
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2006/03/5ha-1.jpg

they are selling the heck out of these peices of poop. why? That whole "Toyota" thing backing it up. Remember. Japan can do no wrong.

if it was introduced like this:.....
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

They'da sold 3.

thats all im saying.

[Ralph LoGrasso]

Truth.

[trapin]

That's damn right, Tony.

The media would have SLAYED us if we put out that Maytag Dishwasher on wheels. It would have been brutal. Absolutley BRUTAL!!!

[jp455]

Well for starters the camry has been around for so long that people aren't trading in their "perfectly good" toyotas, they are trading in cars that are several years old, plus people that leased. People sell three year old cars all the time! We in this forum are in the minority with our taste for older cars instead of new ones. Also we have to take into account the type of person that buys camrys...its not enough people to go around for one car to be owned by one person, there must be repeat buyers.

As far as that total piece selling because it has a scion badge...well all I can say is that those people are totally deluded, or your typical ricer with big fart cans. That type of buyer for the most part buy on hype. I bet you that if the badge was the other way around there would be an uproar about how daring GM was. True, maybe the usual GM buyer wouldn't buy one, but another buyer demographic would come in. Look at what happened with the Viper, when it came out people would have scoffed at a 60k Chrysler. Or the Neon, who buys that? Your average hemi loving guy with memories of chargers, and challengers? No, you get the 20 year olds that love the whole import racing scene, and that car did great. Also, the pontiac vibe is a rebadged toyota, theres no complaints about that from the press. So GM can make Japanese looking cars without repercusions. If we keep saying that everything is fine here in the states there will never be any improvement. There must be a reason for the downfall of the big three, or is it some huge conspiracy that all car magazines are against them? And no, not all car companies in the world are doing badly.

But this is no indication of the core argument...certain quality factors need big time improvement in cars made in the us. If not, the market would be very diferent...

[USAZR1]

If GM had designed and built the Honda Element,how well do you think it would sell. Conversely,if Honda or Toyota had built the Aztek,,,,?
I've owned a bunch of American and foreign cars & trucks and can honestly say the US cars and trucks have treated me a lot better.
Would I buy another foreign car? Sure,I would. Do I think they are any better? No.

[vintageracer]

I think you all are missing the whole point of why the ricer cars sell so well. Sure, they are well built, good quality, run forever, have questionable styling, however look at the market whom the Japanese choose sell their product. It ain't fat and 40 up like the folks on this board.

Fat and 40 folks who are into cars buy Chevys or trucks and they will never buy a Toyota. And guess what? Toyota does not care about you since you are not their market. The fat and 40 crowd who do like Toyota's are are not interested in Pro-Touring or collector cars and look at cars as just transporation and Toyota's are GREAT TRANSPORTATION!

You think GM has problems now, wait 5 years. There is no product that has been shown by GM now that has ANY interest to the 16-35 year old buyer's. The Japanese know this and this age group is their market now and in the future. Face it guys, the Cavelier and Saturn ain't makin it!

The Japanese are creating passionate young buyers now who will buy only Japanese cars when they age and become fat and 40. Kinda like the American car companies did with us. The Americans just forgot about our kids and Japanese realized this big error!

The Muscle car craze will be over in 10 years when we are all older and fatter and no longer can see well enough to care about cars. The ricers will be the Barrett Jackson favorites bringing the big bucks. That's when all the folks that are now 16-35 year old will want the re-live "their" youth and start looking for that Japanese car in which they cracked their first date. Remember, you did the same thing! You still are young enough to remember that aren't you???

Quality product that young and old want to buy will save GM. After looking at their 2006-2007 model offerings, GM is on life support. GM was SO STUPID as to not even promote the 50th anniversary of Corvette racing at Sebring this month. Go to www.autoextremist.com and read Peter Delorenzo's article in the "rants" section about Corvette, Sebring and the HUGE missed opportunity to promote something good about GM.

Go shop and look at the Japanese products and it does not take very long to see why they sell so good. Of course only look at the Japanese cars after you look at American cars. As good as you may think the American cars are, the Japanese cars will blow your mind in fit and finish and make it easy to understand why the American car companies are having problems.

[chet]

I have sat back and read this whole thread.I am an american car buyer if possible. That being said I also own a 2003 honda civic for my wife. There was nothing comparable in an american car I would have trusted at the time. Like what a cavalier? focus? blah! It also holds its value much better than an american car.

Mike you are right about the fat and 40 thing. the aging population is changing and in 10-15 years a whole new era of buyers will be in the market. GM's biggest downfall is not the medai is was not taking the japanese auto makers seriously in the early '80's.

You can't say its totally the media all products (no just cars) are looked at the same way. Japanese = quality. Can you tell me the name of a quality NA electronics manufacturer that is doing well and not ultra high end?

You wait until the Chinese cars hit the market. Sure they will suck for the first few years and people will laugh at them like Hyundai was, remember them? One of the best mfg's out there now! The chinese import cars will sadly be the last nail in the coffin for GM.

[jp455]

Thank you Mike, and Chet...my sentiments exactly!

[Jim68nC]

...I have a question. If you have a load of topsoil in the back and you get a flat tire.....how do you get to the spare which is under the bed?

if I'm not mistaken, the owners of those tru....uhhh vehicles probably purchase their topsoil by the bag at Home Depot for 1.99 versus by the yard via a front end loader. Therefore, your answer is easy...slide the bag to the side. hehehe

I would pay to see what would happen to that thing if your local supplier dropped even a yard of topsoil in the back of that thing...any takers??? [Of course I don't own one, never will. They are ammusing though]

I don't really have anymore GM debating to do (it's all old news to me) it's just that was funny to me for some reason...thanks.

[jp455]

I think you're wrong Jim, they don't buy topsoil in a bag at homedepot...thats what the gardner is for!:rotfl:

[Jim68nC]

hmmm...ya got me there. hehehe,

well someone has to buy all those pallets of topsoil from HD. dang just when i thought i had life all figured out.:hmm:

[67LS1T56]

I have sat back and read this whole thread.I am an american car buyer if possible. That being said I also own a 2003 honda civic for my wife. There was nothing comparable in an american car I would have trusted at the time. Like what a cavalier? focus? blah! It also holds its value much better than an american car.

Mike you are right about the fat and 40 thing. the aging population is changing and in 10-15 years a whole new era of buyers will be in the market. GM's biggest downfall is not the medai is was not taking the japanese auto makers seriously in the early '80's.

You can't say its totally the media all products (no just cars) are looked at the same way. Japanese = quality. Can you tell me the name of a quality NA electronics manufacturer that is doing well and not ultra high end?

You wait until the Chinese cars hit the market. Sure they will suck for the first few years and people will laugh at them like Hyundai was, remember them? One of the best mfg's out there now! The chinese import cars will sadly be the last nail in the coffin for GM.

A few years back Focus was the best selling car in Europe if my memory serves me right.

[rob07002]

The Muscle car craze will be over in 10 years when we are all older and fatter and no longer can see well enough to care about cars. The ricers will be the Barrett Jackson favorites bringing the big bucks. That's when all the folks that are now 16-35 year old will want the re-live "their" youth and start looking for that Japanese car in which they cracked their first date. Remember, you did the same thing! You still are young enough to remember that aren't you???

NEVER, I repeat NEVER gonna happen :spank2: That would be like collecting plastic beer bottles.

Listen GM deserves its lumps for sure. Years of mismanagement, bad budget decisions, and lackluster designs are all their fault. But kicking a person when they're down is wrong PERIOD. And thats what many auto mags are doing and have been doing for awile now. All jumping on the GM, Ford, Chrysler sucks bandwagon... I remember in the 70's and early 80's when US autos were having a bad time and the same thing happened... It was US cars suck! and and all the "end of the world" mass hypnosis. The first step to fixing a problem is to admit there is a problem and GM has clearly seen the error of there ways, its what to choose to do about it that will make or break them. Believe me everyone on this board and beyond should hope that GM, Ford, Chrysler don't collapse, the reprecussions of a company as large as these folding would send shockwaves throughout the worlds ecomomies, and seriously hinder any chance for econmic growth for the forseeable future.... 321000 people out of work worldwide if GM would shut down....

[MarkM66]

[quote=rob07002]NEVER, I repeat NEVER gonna happen :spank2: That would be like collecting plastic beer bottles.[quote]

You are 100% correct. Imports will never, ever appreciate in value! History does not always repeat itself. The muscle car craze is it's own entity, and it will never be repeated.

And if you think they will, you'd be a fool not to be collecting them now!

IMO, basically no car sold in the US in the past 30 years has appreciated, with very few exceptions.

And we're not all fat and 40 up on this board either!

[6'9"Witha69]

The knobs have a blue, and a red stripe, thats it. So the blue right before the red is just as cool as the blue on the end?That is wht there is a display to show temperature setting. You don't have to guess.


also, idiot lights with switches? I missed something, aren't they idiot lights because they DON't have switches?
It was a joke. The idiot lights look ridiculous. It likes like there are couple in there for driver is an idiot and other lights.

[Damn True]

Can you tell me the name of a quality NA electronics manufacturer that is doing well and not ultra high end?


Ever heard of Intel or Apple?

How about Micron or Dell?

Infinion ring a bell?


As for the Camry debate. There is nothing wrong with a Camry at all, save for being utterly boring. But at the same time there are plenty of other cars that do as well if not better in JD Power listings. But people don't talk about that.

The automotive press and mainstream media report when CR has bad stuff to say about a US manufacturer, they rarely make mention of things like....oh Toyota having an engine replacement program for ALL SR-5 v-6s built between 1990 and 1995 because the heads and blocks warp into pretzels.

[BonzoHansen]

Funny you bring up Camry. I just read an interesting line, maybe from the new C&D, but I actually forget where. Anyway, the jist was this: People get all over GM for not making 'exciting' cars, but Toyota makes all boring cars and they sell like hot cakes.

I notice the new Cobalt has a 5y/60k warranty. Is that GM standard now? If so, why don't they advertise that? If not, it shold be. Americans jump at stuff like that (ie Hyundai). GM keeps saying their quality is up, prove it!

[trapin]

Consumer Reports shouldn't be commenting on automobiles anyway. They don't test the cars. They're analysis comes from consumer surveys. It's totally bogus. They should stick to rating toasters and DVD players (which they're also not good at...I know from experience). I've been burned by those jokers a number of times.

To address Chet and Mike.....so I guess the cars like the HHR, Solstice, Sky, and maybe Camaro don't appeal to the 16-20 year olds? And how do you know it's the quality and style of our cars that doesn't appeal to them and not the biased crap that they read and hear about in the media? You are aware how easily influenced the youth is in this country....aren't you?

I work next to the department that does the market research for GM...I've seen the presentation boards and the trends in the market place that they're targeting. Trust me...that age group is being covered by a lot of our brands. But (once again) WE'RE NOT GETTING THE HELP DOING IT THAT THE JAPANESE ARE GETTING FROM THE MEDIA.

I'm sorry that you can't see it. But it's right there in front of your face.

[Steve Chryssos]

Okay. Stop with the fat thing. Im very sensitive these days. :spam: :yum:

[chet]

haha ya I am too! :cheers:

[Fuelie Fan]

I'll start this by saying that I am a DEDICATED chevy fan, I own 3 despite being unmarried, without children, and (kinda) homeless.

the new Impala (that my mom has) is ugly, and the hard plastic interior is actually WORSE than previous gen Impala (which she also had).
The monte carlo: ugly
Cobalt? The coupe is ok, the sedan (my brother has) is ugly.
HHR? Do they get any uglier?
SSR...kinda cool, but could definitely see how people think they are ugly, especially those already in favor of japanese styling versus retro.

Of the Chevrolet brand, only the Corvette and the trucks are solid. The corvette is a niche vehicle, and trucks are less desirable than in previous years with the average consumer crying for economy, and at any rate aren't enough to save the company, only to prolong the suffering. It amazed me when they (reportedly) stalled the camaro/gto development to push through the truck release.

No media bias there AT ALL. I'm not saying the media has no bias, because they do and it's pretty obvious. I curse just as much as the rest of you when they lamented 80's nova while crowning the corresponding Toyota as a champion, but COME ON. Chevrolet has many more enemies than the media, among them being their exterior stylists and marketing team.

I think Cadillac has a very solid lineup, and pontiac's isn't too bad. They've lost the cladding and are more attractive than the chevies, but are still not QUITE there. For some reason, every time i see an Acura TL, i think to myself, "THAT is what the new pontiacs should look like." Something about it is reminiscient of pontiac cues, but so much better in execution than pretty much anything at the pontiac dealership

As for Chinese cars, I've worked extensively with Chinese auto manufacturers, and I think they will take much longer to catch on than the Korean cars. I don't see any dedication to quality, only "cheaper cheaper cheaper". One car I worked in, the seat upholstery fell apart within 1000 miles. The engines they use are outdated designs with pieced-together upgrades.

[TonyHuntimer]

Getting back to points made earlier...

Along with other factors, the unions are the reason for GM's (along with other companies) problems. Unions were originally designed to protect the workers from working in extra long hours in horrible conditions for pennies. Now the unions force companies to keep the worst piece of (poop) employees that have attitude problems, low morale, zero integrity, and a slough of other worthless qualities. If a union worker on an assembly line didn't install the weaterstrip correctly behind a door panel it won't get noticed. When it is noticed, the union worker gets a warning. :secret: The problem continues to happen. The worker gets multiple warnings, but can't get fired because the union protects the dou^&-bag. Now there are at least a thousand Cadillac Sevilles with leaky doors. After 5 warnings, the supervisor gets fed up. Since he can't fire the dou^&-bag, the supervisor has the dou^&-bag transferred to another department. Now the same dou^&-bag is responsible for bolting the front control arms on your Cadillac. Did I mention this is a true story?

The assembly plants (and other facilities) are full of these dou^&-bags that can't be fired. They just get moved around.

Japanese auto factory workers have more pride than most of our blood sucking union dou^&-bags. That's why quality seems to be better on cars built in Japan.

I'm not saying that all union workers are dou^&-bags. I'm just saying the unions protect the ones that are. Once the dou^&-bag passes the probationary period...he or she is there for life. It's a scary reality. I left after five years. I was surprised at how worthless people can be. It's going to be the downfall of more than just GM. :scared:

Tony Huntimer
RaceHome.com

[shmoov69]

Getting back to points made earlier...

Along with other factors, the unions are the reason for GM's (along with other companies) problems. Unions were originally designed to protect the workers from working in extra long hours in horrible conditions for pennies. Now the unions force companies to keep the worst piece of (poop) employees that have attitude problems, low morale, zero integrity, and a slough of other worthless qualities. If a union worker on an assembly line didn't install the weaterstrip correctly behind a door panel it won't get noticed. When it is noticed, the union worker gets a warning. :secret: The problem continues to happen. The worker gets multiple warnings, but can't get fired because the union protects the dou^&-bag. Now there are at least a thousand Cadillac Sevilles with leaky doors. After 5 warnings, the supervisor gets fed up. Since he can't fire the dou^&-bag, the supervisor has the dou^&-bag transferred to another department. Now the same dou^&-bag is responsible for bolting the front control arms on your Cadillac. Did I mention this is a true story?

The assembly plants (and other facilities) are full of these dou^&-bags that can't be fired. They just get moved around.

Japanese auto factory workers have more pride than most of our blood sucking union dou^&-bags. That's why quality seems to be better on cars built in Japan.

I'm not saying that all union workers are dou^&-bags. I'm just saying the unions protect the ones that are. Once the dou^&-bag passes the probationary period...he or she is there for life. It's a scary reality. I left after five years. I was surprised at how worthless people can be. It's going to be the downfall of more than just GM. :scared:

Tony Huntimer
RaceHome.com

LOL! Tell the truth brother Tony!! :worship:
So true, they protect the worthless POS's that cannot keep a job anywhere else and in a sense punish the good employees by making them work next to the dirtbag and therefore corrupting the whole group like cancer from the inside out. Not that the management is great, but at least they (usually) have (or HAD) a work ethic.
I hope that GM does pull the head out soon though.

[blackbeast]

Its not a matter of complication. I'm all for simplicity, but the AC unit on the vette looks terrible. Theres no labels on the knobs, and it just looks cheap...one thing is inexpensive, another cheap. Its all in the details. Even looking at the SUV interior you posted you can tell that that is much better looking.

And how can you say you can't tell about the gaps in the steering trim? Its obvious that the left bottom corner doesn't follow the contours of the hole, and the top right gap is noticeably bigger than the bottom right. I'm not making these things up!

Now how am I biased? I even said I would much ratehr buy a Z06 than a Boxster. If anything I like the vette better making me lean towards it more.

if you really need labels on the knobs to figure out how to use the A/c your an idiot ( and besides i see color coding around the knobs to indicate temperature)

the gaps are just a matter of the picture being at an angle, you would need a straight on shot to determine if there was a difference...

[DLinson]

It's too bad that the unions protect the idiots and then everyone tends to slow down to the idiots' pace. We have a union in our St. Louis plant and one of our assemblers was told by the other workers to slow down because they didn't want to assemble as many parts as her. She was messing up the average output requiring the others to work more.

The union went on strike back in the seventies and our founder and owner of the company opened up three plants down south without unions. He wouldn't let the unions hold his company ransom. I'm glad we are still a private owned company.

I also know a guy that is a union machinist for Chrysler here in St. Louis. For the past 3 years he has been layed off and still earning $50,000+ a year. He will get that for at least 5 years. He still has to show up at the union hall a couple times a month and hand out fliers or show up at a picket line somewhere once in a while. In the meantime he has his own shop machining parts for other companies making as much or more than he is getting from Chrysler.

Unions started out as a good idea but have been abused. Is it possible for the big three to get rid of the unions? I don't think they have to get rid of them, just make them accountable for their members.

[Sue]

Speaking from a 24 year old perspective, there is not one car that GM or Ford makes (that i can afford) that I wouldn't kick my own balls for owning.
If i sold my camaro, i'd cry, but then i'd move right along and by a WRX.

Although people do buy cars based on quality they don't buy cars based on the management or unions. These have been hurting GM but Chet is right, GM's biggest problem is that these cars are lifeless to kids my age!

[Northern Goat]

Can't afford GM or Ford but can afford WRX?

Don't WRXs cost about as much as a Mustang or GTO?

[trapin]

Speaking from a 24 year old perspective, there is not one car that GM or Ford makes (that i can afford) that I wouldn't kick my own balls for owning.
If i sold my camaro, i'd cry, but then i'd move right along and by a WRX.

Although people do buy cars based on quality they don't buy cars based on the management or unions. These have been hurting GM but Chet is right, GM's biggest problem is that these cars are lifeless to kids my age!
Your opinons represent one person; you.

One of my neighbors bought an HHR last fall and all the kids in my neighborhood went gonzo over it. Same with the Solstice that my uncle brought over to show off. And just about everyone of them asks about the Camaro Concept car.

We might not have "your" attention......but we have theirs.

[Damn True]

Can't afford GM or Ford but can afford WRX?

Don't WRXs cost about as much as a Mustang or GTO?

I think what he is saying is that he could afford a Mustang but dosen't want one and he might want a Vette, but can't afford one.

The WRX-sTI is right in the ballpark with the Mustang, and where the new F-body should live. Pretty viable alternative in my book. IMO this version of the musclecar wars will include the WRX and the EVO in addition to the Mustang, Camaro and Challenger. That's a good thing. Competition breeds innovation.

[TonyL]

how someone can say that gm isnt trying to reach the younger market, and doing a fine job of it is just crazy to me.

what do you call this then?

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[wantahertzdonut]

You are 100% correct. Imports will never, ever appreciate in value! History does not always repeat itself. The muscle car craze is it's own entity, and it will never be repeated.

So wrong. Try looking for a Supra. Prices for a decent example are and have been hovering around $20k. I know before they stopped being sold in the us prices were approaching $40k, but how much does a 96 Camaro bring these days? $10k if you're lucky?

Last generation RX7's, 3000GT's, 300ZX's, all of those early 90's Japanese sports cars will start to appreciate.

I won't mention the Skyline other than it draws a pretty hefty pricetag considering it wasn't even sold new here.

And let's not forget the early Z's from the late 60's/early 70's. They're already bringing money. And the Toyota 2000GT is worth well into the 6 figure range last I heard.

Rarity and performance draws high values. If it's holding value well now, just wait till the things get even more scarce.

Buy 'em now. You'll be able to start selling them back to kids for profit for years to come.

[Sue]

Let me clarify.
I wouldn't spend my money on anything they make in the price range. I would on a STI. If i had the money a corvette would be top of the list.

You're right, I can only speak for myself, but I am the future buyer. The things that influence me are the same thing influencing many of the people my age.

The picture above, not a bad looking car, but honestly I couldn't tell you what it is. However, I and all of my friends could spot a Subi half mile away in the dark.
I'm not trying to be overly dramatic here, but there is a certain style, culture, character, whatever you want to call it that is not captured by the current line up and that is a serious problem for all of the US car manufactures.
It is not enough to just have a car that looks like it could be for a younger generation.

By the way, I'm really stoked about the new camaro.

[trapin]

By the way, I'm really stoked about the new camaro.
Well, ya see....we might just get your business after all.:)

The black car in the picture above is the new Chevy Cobalt. Not widely known yet because the model line is brand new. It replaced the cavalier.

[rob07002]

[quote=MarkM66]

So wrong. Try looking for a Supra. Prices for a decent example are and have been hovering around $20k. I know before they stopped being sold in the us prices were approaching $40k, but how much does a 96 Camaro bring these days? $10k if you're lucky?

Last generation RX7's, 3000GT's, 300ZX's, all of those early 90's Japanese sports cars will start to appreciate.

I won't mention the Skyline other than it draws a pretty hefty pricetag considering it wasn't even sold new here.

And let's not forget the early Z's from the late 60's/early 70's. They're already bringing money. And the Toyota 2000GT is worth well into the 6 figure range last I heard.

Rarity and performance draws high values. If it's holding value well now, just wait till the things get even more scarce.

Buy 'em now. You'll be able to start selling them back to kids for profit for years to come.



People also pay big $$ for out of production Beannie Babies, want to explain that one to me also?

I'll stick to my crappy, out of date, Rock solid, Detroit iron, thank you very much!

[wantahertzdonut]

Hey, I'm just making a point.

I like the cars I mentioned, enough to want to own one. But I like my old cars too, just see my sig.

[rob07002]

Hey, I'm just making a point.

I like the cars I mentioned, enough to want to own one. But I like my old cars too, just see my sig.

No worries, to each their own.

I understand your point and while yes there are always anomalies such as the cars you mentioned I don't think its fair to compare a Supra to an over-the-counter Camaro. What are the differences in sales numbers (many more Camaros sold). Now if you want to compare a Supra to a say 2002 Berger Camaro I think the field evens out a bit.

[paul67]

On the US v Jap thing I'm amost sure that most of the US car makers own or part own most jap and korean car companys + other euro car makers

[paul67]

Also din't GM get locked into a Korean car deal for $1.5Billion that they could not get out of, now that was nothing to do with the unions

[wantahertzdonut]

No worries, to each their own.



I understand your point and while yes there are always anomalies such as the cars you mentioned I don't think its fair to compare a Supra to an over-the-counter Camaro. What are the differences in sales numbers (many more Camaros sold). Now if you want to compare a Supra to a say 2002 Berger Camaro I think the field evens out a bit.
Perhaps, but remember Supras were hardly limited production cars. They just didn't sell well due to the fairly hefty sticker price.

Pricetag aside, I think the cars are very comparable to each other. But you're right, there are more Camaros than Supras. But rarity drives value (usually). However comparing the Berger Camaro in regards to production numbers is the same thing as comparing the Supra to a stock Camaro. Any "aftermarket production" performance version of any car is suddenly in a completely different league. Same reason a Shelby Mustang will bring way more than a regular production Mustang of the same year.

Is rarity the driving force behind a Supra's pricetag? Maybe, but don't forget they're kickass cars. So is a Camaro SS, and the SS has the Supra beaten in many respects. But I can get an SS cheaper, so who knows...

[harshman]

chevy ownes 8% of isuze and plan to sell to free up cash. that is good business nothing more (sell more parts and get oter parts cheeper).

[fun2gofast]

I work for G.M. in Kansas City where we build the Malibu and are working on the new Saturn Aura. I am a fourth generation autoworker and proud to follow in the footsteps of my family. I really feel like the engineers I've been working with here are really trying to build a better vehicle. The tolerances of fit and finish have gone up quite alot. I also feel like the overall performance and quality are going up as well. We must be doing something right because production is working 9 hours a day and a couple of Saturdays a month to keep up demand of the car. The Saturn Aura is going to be a great looking car with even tighter standards of quality.

[Ralph LoGrasso]

how someone can say that gm isnt trying to reach the younger market, and doing a fine job of it is just crazy to me.

what do you call this then?

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

To comment on this: I recently test drove a 2006 GTI and my buddy test drove a 2006 Cobalt SS (Supercharged (I was in the car for the test drive)). The interiors on the cars were comparable, there was a bit more room in the cobalt. Both cars were manuals. The cobalt was MUCH quicker than the GTI (from the ass-o-meter) and also had a $4K cheaper price tag. ($26.XK vs. $21.5K). If I was in the market for such a car, Chevy would've definitely been getting my money.

[Northern Goat]

There you have it folks. The "ass-o-meter" never lies.:razz:

[sonofernest]

Comparable interior? Thats a joke.
Anyway back to the main topic. Earlier the corvette and boxter interiors were compared. This was a fairly valid point (same class/ price)despite the fact that the boxter interior has been relatively the same since the mid 90s and is often bashed for its quality. The problem with GM is NOT the quality of the corvette, its the quality of the higher production models. Here's the interior of an accord:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

and here is the newest Malibu:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
Now this is a car in about the same class. I understand that the accord can reach nearly $30k and the Malibu tops at maybe 25 without the numerous incentives but these two cars aren't even close.
I agree with the whole lack of youth oriented models but that isn't the main problem. For GM the quality has really lacked where it counts, in the mid range, boring, cars that need to sell in huge numbers.
I really dont think the media plays too huge of a roll in this, I think that if GM produced a well made, competitive car, people will buy it. The CTS is a perfect example. While its not perfect, it has done very well.

[sonofernest]

Oh yeah, I'm 19 and I think that cobalt is fugly.

[TonyL]

I see the malibu has a more ergonomic shifter, better cupholder, 4 way adjustable center vents, less buzy cruise control buttons, The only advantage the honda gets from me is the steering wheel design looks better, and it has a nav system. Whats the deal with that big ass door thing in the center console?

The malibu's stereo section needs work. its too squared and chunky looking, I'll give you that too.

that you're 19 and think the cobalt is fugly is fine too. I look at it and see a car so similar to the civic that its easy to confuse them.

bear in mind that of all the 4 bangers in the 7 second club run the cobalt's engine. They got into the 8s with a factory block fer crying out loud.

[TonyL]

and to be fair, this is the best malibu interior shot.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

I take the steering wheel comment back. the malibu's is way better.

[Sue]

"Oh yeah, I'm 19 and I think that cobalt is fugly."

Lol

[Madspeed]

When a company is forced to pay retired workers money and provide health care for all and very high wages it is destined to fail. Like it or not this is why unions will inevitably kill a company. Forcing it to no longer be competitive with the competition via labor spells doom. I may piss a few guys off and that is not my desire; however I am a business owner and I know that overhead will always be the number one issue when it comes to survival.


This Hits me right in the Nu75 I am an emloyee at a small Fabrication shop and without My VAST amounts of SKILLS my boss Couldnt even fathom doing what he does. Not to take annything away from him hes Is one of the BEST fabricators ive EVER seen. Dont believe me? look at the Bada55 chev dually that was his FIRST attempt at WWW.Offroadfabrication.com (http://www.Offroadfabrication.com)
But If not for me he would have never got the ls1 conversion we charged over 10k on a 94 jeep wrangler to do in 2 weeks (that was LABOR ONLEY) I wired it mounted al the electronics Found the person to edit the cpu and remove the passlock did all the research,Plumbed it, adapted the Pwr strng, made the atlas tCase work with the 4l60E and everything else it needed. B4 I showed up he was just going to make 1200 bucks to weld in the motr mounts and set the eng in place for somone else to wire it and tune it.
Not only is the customer Stoked but all the fab shops in a 40 mile radius he went to want to send us there ls1 conversions. So instead of bitching about your overhead try employing SKILLED labor not retards that can bairly push a F!@#$g broom and pay them well to do it. Its a win win

Srry im havin a bad day and that one hits home specially since i was fired from a high paying Dangerouse job with a major Phone company because they wanted to shrink the workforce b4 they merged with another major phone company. I was 1 month from being vested as well. and my union left my nu75 out to dry.
And if I told you what they fired me for ud be FUMING too.

[Jim68nC]

This Hits me right in the Nu75 I am an emloyee at a small Fabrication shop and without My VAST amounts of SKILLS my boss Couldnt even fathom doing what he does. Not to take annything away from him hes Is one of the BEST fabricators ive EVER seen. Dont believe me? look at the Bada55 chev dually that was his FIRST attempt at WWW.Offraodfabrication.com (http://www.Offraodfabrication.com)
But If not for me he would have never got the ls1 conversion we charged over 10k on a 94 jeep wrangler to do in 2 weeks (that was LABOR ONLEY) I wired it mounted al the electronics Found the person to edit the cpu and remove the passlock did all the research,Plumbed it, adapted the Pwr strng, made the atlas tCase work with the 4l60E and everything else it needed. B4 I showed up he was just going to make 1200 bucks to weld in the motr mounts and set the eng in place for somone else to wire it and tune it.
Not only is the customer Stoked but all the fab shops in a 40 mile radius he went to want to send us there ls1 conversions. So instead of bitching about your overhead try employing SKILLED labor not retards that can bairly push a F!@#$g broom and pay them well to do it. Its a win win

Srry im havin a bad day and that one hits home specially since i was fired from a high paying Dangerouse job with a major Phone company because they wanted to shrink the workforce b4 they merged with another major phone company. I was 1 month from being vested as well. and my union left my nu75 out to dry.
And if I told you what they fired me for ud be FUMING too.


*cough* did it have anything to do with your spelling and grammer skills?:enguard: yes, my boss is sending me back to sensitivity training for that - sorry.

[Madspeed]

LOL so true i cant spell fur crap But I can however swing a wrench =) and meh grammer sux to =) thank god I dont get paid 1k + a week to spell eh?

:enguard:

[trapin]

Oh yeah, I'm 19 and I think that cobalt is fugly.
Yeah....but if it had a Scion logo on the grille you'd be leaning back in the chair with your hand down your pants right now.

Your previous response just varifies my sentiments about the youth in this country being easily influenced. No offense but at 19 years of age, I tend to think your opinions come from what you've read in the media rather than from personal experince from owning a number of cars. You're 19....how many cars could you have owned by now?

[Madspeed]

Yeah....but if it had a Scion logo on the grille you'd be leaning back in the chair with your hand down your pants right now.

Your previous response just varifies my sentiments about the youth in this country being easily influenced. No offense but at 19 years of age, I tend to think your opinions come from what you've read in the media rather than from personal experince from owning a number of cars. You're 19....how many cars could you have owned by now?


I was on my 5th but hey i was and am sic in the head

[harshman]

Yeah....but if it had a Scion logo on the grille you'd be leaning back in the chair with your hand down your pants right now.
:lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:

[Sue]

Yep, you guessed it. The problem with GM is that they don't put Scion logos on their cars. Personally, I'll buy anything with a Japanese name.

Trapin, apparently is really old, because he has a REAL oppinion. You sonofernest don't, you're only 19. Remember that!

[toxicz28]

I was on my 5th but hey i was and am sic in the head
Only 5? Damn, I was on a dozen and not one was Japanese! :headbang: :lmao: :smoke:

[toxicz28]

*cough* did it have anything to do with your spelling and grammer skills?

:rotfl: :hah: :lol: :lmao:

[Damn True]

LOL so true i cant spell fur crap But I can however swing a wrench =) and meh grammer sux to =) thank god I dont get paid 1k + a week to spell eh?

:enguard:

Word of advice from a guy that once thought the same way:

Get enrolled at your local junior college and take every english class you can. At some point in your life you may find yourself running a business like the one you are currently employed by. You will need to be able to communicate effectively. The phrase, "meh grammer sux to" will not impress a loan officer when you are trying to get a small business loan.

[Bigblue73]

More bad news on the automotive front - GM and Tier 1 suppliers....

In helping out a rigging company that I do alot of work with, I get a phone call to meet a group of folks at the Tower Automotive/Novi plant, to look at moving some equipment out of the plant, loading it on a truck and shipping it to Canada. Easy so far right. Wrong, I show up for this meeting and the people we are meeting are from Canada and are the direct competitor to this company. Seems that these guys are riding shirt tails to get a look at this equipment. Immediately, I'm on the defensive wondering what I've gotten myself into.....but come to find out, General Motors is ripping this line from this plant to send it Canada to save a few bucks. Seems the Canadian dollar is at an all time low and shows a big cost reduction to the bean counters.

The plant manager of the facility was obviously tipped off at the arrival of these other individuals from Canada and did not let us step foot in the plant. In talking with these gentlemen outside the plant, as they tried to flex their muscles by calling someone in the "BIG HOUSE" to get us access to the equipment, they stated that they are moving a dozen lines from the States to Canada in the month of April. Seems that Windsor and Toronto are in the process of rebuilding the automotive empire they once had and don't care what it takes to get it. They didn't have a clue what was needed for the re-installation but have the attitude of just get it here (to Canada) and we'll figure it out. WHAT A HACK JOB! I was and still am shocked at the lack of professionalism and under-the-table antics that went down. We were never granted access into the facility, so for one more day the American worker won.

Now with this happening can you see why the Domestic market share is decreasing? Displaced workers from the automotive companies, both factories and suppliers, will think twice about buying an American made car.

Sorry for the high-jack here, but after Black Tuesday, My deepest sympathy goes out to Trapin (Tony) and any others that are working for General Motors or in any of the Tier 1 companies. Keep up the good work guys and the country will stand behind you.

Please note that professionally, I never devulge the nature of the work that we do for our clients, but since this job never came into play, and truly pissed me off, I thought I'd share.

[Northern Goat]

[quote=Bigblue73]but come to find out, General Motors is ripping this line from this plant to send it Canada to save a few bucks. Seems the Canadian dollar is at an all time low and shows a big cost reduction to the bean counters.[quote]

For your information the Canadian dollar has been rising over the last few year (0.632 US=$1 Cdn in April 02, now it takes 0.865 to buy $1 Cdn). You can't be that great of an engineer if you can't even check basic facts. The true fact is that GM moves jobs to Canada because of lower health care costs (huge expense for large US companies). See various business commentaries for support. Beginning a rant with incorrect facts doesn't help your credibility, right off the bat.

For your information Canada is losing just as many jobs to the foreign competition as the US. And as in most of our trade related issues, we are in this together. We may trade jobs back and forth over the border, but our true economic foe is cheap third world labour.

[quote]They didn't have a clue what was needed for the re-installation but have the attitude of just get it here (to Canada) and we'll figure it out. WHAT A HACK JOB! [quote]

Again unsubstantiated B.S., how do you know how the reinstallation will go? Did you see the reinstallation? Or do you think we are idiots up here who live in igloos.

I personally feel for anyone who has lost their job. I also few Americans as our friends and allies. I just get annoyed by blowhards that try to flex his intellectual might with incorrect information, but to take a shot at my country on top of that just pisses me off.

[landyacht67]

Stop bashing my igloo

now the origional topic - From my personal experience I find that the media is biased towards imports, but not as bad as some people here say. Every time I've walked past a newstand lately one publication or another is talking about the new Challenger/Camaro/Imperial, whatever. I have driven the 2006 focus, and the 2006 Mazda 3. the Mazda 3 has a nicer interior hands down. When the Focus came out our Ford dealer complained that their customers all wanted pro-5 wagons instead. Why? The Pro-5s were faster, the mirrors fell off the doors of the Focuses (Foci?), the rear doors would wedge shut... The trouble is (and I can only honestly make the comparison Ford Mazda because I work with both) is that the imports had better quality control. I always here about stupid quality control issues on the Fords, rarely on the Mazdas. These are supposed to be the same company why the difference?

Julian

[shmoov69]

Or do you think we are idiots up here who live in igloos.


:lol:
LMAO!!!!:lmao:
I always wondered how you built a garage igloo!!:lmao: Too funny! Thanks!:1st:

[trapin]

Yep, you guessed it. The problem with GM is that they don't put Scion logos on their cars.
Seems that way, doesn't it?


Trapin, apparently is really old, because he has a REAL opinion. You sonofernest don't, you're only 19. Remember that!
Easy now. I'm not saying he isn't entitled to an opinion...as long as it's an "educated" opinion and not some "spin" that he read in the newspaper. I think anyone would agree.

[rob07002]

Perhaps, but remember Supras were hardly limited production cars. They just didn't sell well due to the fairly hefty sticker price.

Pricetag aside, I think the cars are very comparable to each other. But you're right, there are more Camaros than Supras. But rarity drives value (usually). However comparing the Berger Camaro in regards to production numbers is the same thing as comparing the Supra to a stock Camaro. Any "aftermarket production" performance version of any car is suddenly in a completely different league. Same reason a Shelby Mustang will bring way more than a regular production Mustang of the same year.

Is rarity the driving force behind a Supra's pricetag? Maybe, but don't forget they're kickass cars. So is a Camaro SS, and the SS has the Supra beaten in many respects. But I can get an SS cheaper, so who knows...

Perhaps I'm abit off base with the Berger, but an SS Camaro vs a Supra is a bit closer comparison. But from what I remember wasn't the Supra over 40k when it was sold here, when a fully loaded SS is just north of $30. In reality its probably more fair to compare a Supra to a vette of the same vintage..

[wantahertzdonut]

I was thinking of SS's as being more comparable, and yes, the Supra was more expensive.

I know from 92-97 the prices of the Supras and others (300ZX, RX7, etc) did go up considerably, ultimately sealing its fate as a car that could sell competitively in the US. I believe they were between $30-$40k depending on options. I'd say the performance is more comparable to an SS than a Vette however, except in price.

The buyer of a Supra is typically different from an SS buyer however, and many people still regard it as the pinacle of Japanese sports cars (not counting the NSX). Being so will create demand now and well into the future. Same with the RX7's, 300Z's, and so on.

They're all in the same class, just different backgrounds.

[Sue]

I'm just giving you a hard time, Trapin. I know what you were saying, in fact i'd probably say the same thing given the change.