View Full Version : Nova Front End Lowering Question ...... Dropped Spindles
I am working towards getting the front end on my 72 down about 3 inches? right now it is about 3 maybe 4 inches from the top of the 17 inch tire to the bottom of the fender lip.
I have looked into several options one being the Airride set up but it is not in the budget right now.
So what dropped spindles and springs are you guy's using on your Nova's for this year? what seems to work best,I see some dropped spindles that give the stock set up and some that kick the wheel out an 1/8 inch or so?
Any feedback and info on Dropped Spindles/Springs for this year would be helpfull.
Thanks
baz67
03-15-2006, 07:04 AM
I am working towards getting the front end on my 72 down about 3 inches? right now it is about 3 maybe 4 inches from the top of the 17 inch tire to the bottom of the fender lip.
So what dropped spindles and springs are you guy's using on your Nova's for this year? what seems to work best,I see some dropped spindles that give the stock set up and some that kick the wheel out an 1/8 inch or so?
Any feedback and info on Dropped Spindles/Springs for this year would be helpfull.
Thanks
Dropped spindles are the last thing you want to do to lower your Nova. A 72 has the same front suspension as the first gen Camaros. You should do a search and you will find all the information you need to make an informed choice.
dhardison
03-15-2006, 07:13 AM
You'd probably be happier utilizing drop springs (DSE, Hotchkis) instead of drop spindles.
MarkM66
03-15-2006, 08:48 AM
Cut em' .
:hmm: Interesting,is this just a Camaro / Nova thing? I put a set of dropped spindles on my 55 Chevy with no problems it seems to ride good,I have yet to put on a set of dropped springs thats next for that car too but I have no problems with the dropped spindle ride so far?
Why do you guy's not reccommend using dropped spindles on the Nova? is it a geometry thing? (trying to learn something here not second guessing anyone)appreciate the info,I guess I am now learning the Pro Touring thing!
zbugger
03-15-2006, 05:34 PM
It is a geometry thing. The spindles won't affect the ride at all, but the handling will be noticeable.
Well I guess I'll go with springs for Now!?Thanx
baz67
03-15-2006, 05:49 PM
Nova, yes springs are the best way to go. If you use a drop spindle and wider rims you will hit the outer tie rod with the rim. You will still have that awful geometry. A lowering spring puts the upper control arm in a better position for better geometry.
sinned
03-15-2006, 06:02 PM
Just curious Camaro guys...what geometry changes occur by running drop spindles, since the none of the x,y,z positions change other than all being dropped an equal amount, how is there affect on handling-adverse or otherwise. I understand the steer arm to wheel concern but geometry issues...no.
Just curious Camaro guys...what geometry changes occur by running drop spindles, since none of the x,y,z positions change other than all being dropped an equal amount, how is there affect on handling-adverse or otherwise. I understand the steer arm to wheel concern but geometry issues...no.
This is why I asked about dropped spindles, as I was told basically what dennis68 is saying?
NvrDun71
03-15-2006, 06:58 PM
Im w/ u NOVA. I was always under the impression Spindles were the way to go. I guess its comes down to what your really looking for from the setup. I am definitely after a smooth ride and dont want my 71' to ride like a freakin chicken wagon goin down the road. Do the Hotchkis, DSE, Etc springs really ride that rough over what a spindle drop does on these cars? And does the drop spindle really hurt handling and suspension geometry that much or is that it just doesnt improve anything over stock?
baz67
03-15-2006, 09:09 PM
There is zero geometry change with a drop spindle. Well check that, there is a COG change and that is it, but not the RCH. The camber curve is terrible. You can have positive camber in bump. Now add body roll to that and it only gets worse. Since you did not take my advise on the seach here it is: https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=209
Dennis, I hope my memory is right here, it has to do with the angular relationship between the UCA and LCA. When you use a drop spindle the LCA remains angled up towards the CL while the UCA is at a steeper angle up towards the CL. When the suspension goes into bump the UCA curve is greater than the LCA. So it pushes the top of the spindle out faster than the lower and thus causes a positive trend in bump. It trends positive until around 2" bump and then starts to trend negitive as the UCA moves past its apex. Keep in mind the trend is the same with whatever static alignment you have. It is even worse for droop as it trends negitive all the way. Now when you lower with 2" drop springs it brings the LCA pretty close to level with the ground and the UCA is just above its apex. With that you get negitive camber gain in bump from the get go because the UCA pulls the top of the spindle in faster than the LCA pulls in the bottom. Now in droop it will trend positive for around .5" of travel before it starts to go negitive again.
sinned
03-15-2006, 09:46 PM
OK, so the intent of the post was not to relay that dropped spindles change geometry for the worse, simply that they don't do anything to help the already poor geometry. Using drop springs will also not do very much for the poor geometry either as the amount of drop required to get the UCA running downhill is quite substantial, it also requires running the LCA downhill as well which doesn't help the roll center or lateral movement of said RC much. I think a combination of spindle, spring and "G" mod would actually place the x,y,z coordinates in a favorable position though this is purely speculation as I don't even have an "F" body to play with.
A side note that the new, much anticipated AFX spindle does much the same thing as just suggested by moving the pin up almost an inch and increasing the height to eliminate the need for the “G” mod. A much easier albeit more expensive way to accomplish the same thing.
David Pozzi
03-15-2006, 10:49 PM
I'm assuming since this is a Pro-Touring site and PT cars typically have wide tires and wheels up front, and handling is important to the owner..
The Camaro/Nova suspension has a poor camber curve, lowering the stock suspension put's the upper arm at a better angle since it's shorter than the lower arm, you get into a better part of the "curve". The lower arm isn't ideal, but what else are you going to do?
Installing a drop spindle leaves the suspension in the poor stock condition, in addition the drop spindles have to leave the outer tie rod end 2" lower in relation to the tire/wheel, usually on a pro-touring car with wide wheels/tires, the tie rod hits the tire sidewall. With just shorter coils and stock spindles, the tie rod may fit inside the rim if the wheels are 17" or more. Camaros up to 1969, and Nova up to 1974 have three lengths of outer steering arms depending on the factory steering ratio. The shorter arms are better for wheel clearance.
Heidt has taller drop spindles that improve the geometry but the tie rod problem is still there.
See pic here:
https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4035&d=1120332375
See pic here:
https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4035&d=1120332375[/quote]
Thanks everyone and good pic david pozzi,springs for now!
trackrat79
05-24-2006, 11:23 PM
Would it be posible to mount the stearing tie rod end on the top side of the spindle mount.
baz67
05-25-2006, 06:22 AM
Would it be posible to mount the stearing tie rod end on the top side of the spindle mount.
On a first gen, no. It would increase bumpsteer.
novanutcase
11-12-2006, 05:12 PM
Would you be able to shorten the UCA to pull the spindle back in and what would be the trade off if you did this? Is this why a taller spindle is better so that the UCA angle is not so steep which in turn affords a better FVSA?
From what I have learned so far, it seems that the best setup is for the LCA to be level to the ground and the UCA to have a slight downward slope so that in bump the the LCA and the UCA work together to effect as little as possible the static camber that the car is setup with. Is this correct?
Tom Welch
11-12-2006, 06:00 PM
There are several ways to skin this cat. To 'lower the front end' you can also use shorter front subframe bushings and have no change in front suspension at all. Short springs, short bushings and the G-mod would seem to be effective from a performance and a cost perspective.
MrQuick
11-12-2006, 06:56 PM
im using a tall ATS spindle and a chopped spring.
I'd advise against lowered body bushings as that simple change adds a lot of work to make it happen right.
Marcus SC&C
11-13-2006, 08:49 AM
Novanutcase, to get decent geometry out of these cars you have to move some of the suspension mounting points vertically. The G mod can be a nice start,do a search on that. Lowering the car with springs doesn`t move the points per se but the camber curves are eliptical and lowering the car puts them as a less aggressively bad point. In other words the rate of + camber gain (+ in this case is bad) will be somewhat less at lower ride heights. If you use a stock height drop spindle the camber crves will remain just as bad as they were from the factory and you gain basically nothing except a lower ride height. You can actually bolt on better geometry by going to taller spindles or taller ball joints. You generally want the lower arms close to level with the ball joint pivot point just slightly lower than the inner pivot axis of the lower arms to allow for good geometry even with some bump travel. The upper arms should be from level to angles up slightly at the ball joint. For best upper ball joint travel the ball joint mounting plates should be angled upwards at the same angle as the spindles KPI,in your case that`s around 7*. That doesn`t have to be exact though. ATS tall spindles will both lower the car slightly with drop, 1" which isn`t enough to cause interference issues in most cases and improve the overall geometry a great deal due to their increased height. If you`re happy with the spindles you have we have packages that go from mild to wild with taller modular ball joints to correct the suspension geometry and tie rod ends to correct the factory bumpsteer. These combinations have the best tie rod end clearance for big wheels and tires with corrected bumpsteer. http://www.scandc.com/suspensions.htm#streetcomp2plus
FatMan and Heidts also have tall spindles. The Fatman one has bumpsteer correction built in but IMO is a little bit too tall and combining the 2" drop with the lowered steering arms makes interference problems even worse than a typical drop spindle. The Heidts has the steering arms in the stock location (no bumpsteer fix) but the 2" drop still causes interference in many cases.
Anytime you make the effective spindle height taller it`s going to take that drooping stock arm and swing it outward as well as upward. That ads + camber. Lowering the car with springs does the same thing. Now you`ll have LOTS of + camber to shim out when you align it. Problem is you can`t physically stuff enough shims in there to get it back to stock let alone set it up with some good modern alignment specs. That, along with the fact that the upper ball joint plate will be angles all wrong putting the ball joints near bind at ride height (!) is why you need the right aftermarket upper arms. Heidts and Fatman arms won`t help,they`re stock length and shape. GW,DSE,Speedtech will work better,they have more + caster built in which will let you use more shims toward getting some - camber for better handling and their ball joint plate angles are altered to make up for a lowered ride height. Or you can use our adj. tubular arms which let you dial in any alignment specs you like with no shims at all. :) Since their modular we can set them up for the proper fit for just about any application.
Bear in mind another advantage of droppinf the car with springs is that you can get some good performance springs with a decent spring rate in their too. Eibach,Coil Spring Specialties,Hotchkis,DSE etc. all have good ones for your application. Mark SC&C
Bowtie racing
04-14-2007, 05:50 AM
How about 2.gen camaros / firebirds? Does drop spindles work better for those ?
MonzaRacer
04-14-2007, 04:17 PM
Listen to Mark he is the man when it comes to suspensions. He even like Monzas(which i am working on right now!).
el-camino
10-04-2007, 02:44 AM
hi,
i read very interestet this thread about spindles.
when i drop my wifes 1977 Olds Omega, X-Body, i can not find real good spindles. a friend of mine from say to me:
buy spindles from http://www.mcgaughys.com/
we do that and we love this spindles:1st:
the one and only spindles i have found with original geometry !
i drive my car daily on the roads, it´s not a show car. the next affair is: why did you guys run with over-larged wide tires ?
when i read all the postings in the wheels and tire section....its amazing when i´m read the tire sizes on the front axles.
ok, cool looking....but for a good ride ?? Nope !
ball-joints, bushings, steering arms, the complete suspension must hard work with this tires.
245 or wider tires in front ? never.
you will lose handling and steering quality and short life suspension parts.
this is my view about spindles and lowering.
buy quality spindles and suspension parts and a fine tire size and let it roll.
now you can say: this guy is crazy and have no experience, he lives in Europe.
but fact is: not allways is bigger the better way:twothumbs
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2007/10/1olds_boyd_side-1.jpg
Matts01ES
12-10-2007, 06:53 AM
ok I have a question for everyone. I have a aftermarket subframe from www.checkeredracing.com with Q-A1 Coilovers. I notice that with the bb in the car I cant even get a jack under the frame to jack the car up. Now it does have drop spindles on it. My question is if i pull them off and put the stock ones back on, will that rise them frame back up?
Matts01ES
12-18-2007, 05:11 PM
bump
Exhausted
12-18-2007, 08:26 PM
Just my have already don it on a budget experience, bare with me. I lowered my front, 1974 Nova. Stock subframe, unaltered. Stock drum brake spindles, stock drum brake hubs, modified to accomodate !980 Corvette rotors, 74 chevy 1/2 tom pickup calipers, built my own caliper mounting brackets, stock lower A- arms, cut and moved the ball joint in 1/2", using lower ball joint for 1980's Malibu (it is taller and larger diameter), this helped in the lower A-arm travel, My upper A-arms are from Pole position, kinda spendy, but I needed them, tubular fully adjustable, will not work for lowering the car!!!!!!!! contacted them they sent me upper ball joint mounting plates for larger ball joint(80's malibu) unwelded, (great guys over there) had to do some fab work here, but not difficult, I used 500lbs. short length front coils, with coil spring adjustable collars, KYB front shocks(inexpensive compared to coilovers, less fab work) not as cool, but in my price range. Used adjustable bump steer tie rod ends, and sealed hiem joint's for outer tie rod links, cut the stock bump stomps in half, I cannot put the average floor jack under the center crossmember of my Nova, too low, car handles and rides like a dream. If you have any other Q's, just ask
MrQuick
12-18-2007, 08:48 PM
stock lower A- arms, cut and moved the ball joint in 1/2", using lower ball joint for 1980's Malibu (it is taller and larger diameter), this helped in the lower A-arm travel, My upper A-arms are from Pole position, kinda spendy, but I needed them, tubular fully adjustable, will not work for lowering the car!!!!!!!! contacted them they sent me upper ball joint mounting plates for larger ball joint(80's malibu) unwelded, (great guys over there) had to do some fab work here, but not difficult, I used 500lbs. short length front coils, with coil spring adjustable collars, KYB front shocks(inexpensive compared to coilovers, less fab work) not as cool, but in my price range. Used adjustable bump steer tie rod ends, and sealed hiem joint's for outer tie rod links, cut the stock bump stomps in half, I cannot put the average floor jack under the center crossmember of my Nova, too low, car handles and rides like a dream.
If you have any other Q's, just ask
ahh ya, just one....WHAT??? we need pictures of this one please.
Exhausted
12-18-2007, 09:01 PM
LOL Mr. Quick, gonna have to wait for pics. I will answer any Q's
Exhausted
12-18-2007, 09:21 PM
the reason I moved the lower ball joint's a 1/2" was to clear my wheels.
Exhausted
12-18-2007, 09:34 PM
Mr. Quick, I went with DSE half hieght body bushings, causes some issues, but it presents some cool alternatives, I milled the rear subframe bushing an 1/8" inch, it pulled the nose down on my nova, but it gives it a more sleek look, it pulls the higher edge of the front fenders down almost level with the line of the doors window edge, I think it's cool. Just my opinion, hey after all it's the little things that stand out.
Nicks67GTO
12-26-2007, 06:25 PM
So with the drop spindles how big of a wheel/tire can you run before theres a clearance issue? Ive got 2" drop on my car but i currently have 3 1/2" skinnies in the front with a 165 volkswagon style tire
fatiger53
01-03-2008, 06:58 AM
What's the word on the taller dropped spindles by Fatman and Heidts? They are supposed to get a better camber curve as well as the drop.
CarlC
01-10-2008, 07:36 AM
fatiger53,
Here is another example of where you, as the owner of Fatman, are disgusing yourself behind the veil of the internet. For those interested how Mr. fatiger53 is shilling himself and his business I suggest reading the last two pages of this. https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?p=343811
Bad form fatiger53, bad form.
streetk14
02-07-2008, 07:54 PM
hi,
i read very interestet this thread about spindles.
when i drop my wifes 1977 Olds Omega, X-Body, i can not find real good spindles. a friend of mine from say to me:
buy spindles from http://www.mcgaughys.com/
we do that and we love this spindles:1st:
the one and only spindles i have found with original geometry !
i drive my car daily on the roads, it´s not a show car. the next affair is: why did you guys run with over-larged wide tires ?
when i read all the postings in the wheels and tire section....its amazing when i´m read the tire sizes on the front axles.
ok, cool looking....but for a good ride ?? Nope !
ball-joints, bushings, steering arms, the complete suspension must hard work with this tires.
245 or wider tires in front ? never.
you will lose handling and steering quality and short life suspension parts.
this is my view about spindles and lowering.
buy quality spindles and suspension parts and a fine tire size and let it roll.
now you can say: this guy is crazy and have no experience, he lives in Europe.
but fact is: not allways is bigger the better way:twothumbs
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2007/10/1olds_boyd_side-1.jpg
Hmmm.......
I didn't know that a C6 Z06 or a Dodge Viper are losing handling and steering quality with their 275mm front tires. You need a set of large front tires to help balance a car with a lot of power and big rear tires. Not to mention that most musclecars are nose-heavy which increases the need for large front tires.
Also take a look at Charlie Lillard's mule '69 Camaro. That car was built my a GM suspension engineer, and built to handle and drive like a modern sports car. And he certainly didn't choose a 245 for the front.
Andy
el-camino
02-07-2008, 09:37 PM
ok, bring your cars and drive this stuff all day here on the bad roads.
daily, not on the trailer.
MrQuick
02-07-2008, 10:20 PM
I hear its nice out there this time of year.
Klaus, have you been on the 101? the worst! LOL
streetk14
02-09-2008, 11:35 AM
ok, bring your cars and drive this stuff all day here on the bad roads.
daily, not on the trailer.
My car has never been on a trailer, and yes, there are some bad roads in California. Maybe not eastern European bad, but not great either. My car is not a daily driver and is more than tollerable on choppy roads. Performance cars in general are always going to have some trade-offs and one is usually ride quality.
But that was not my point, it was that for cars that are being built to push the limits a large front tire will help with overall handling and limit understeer. A huge set of tires probably isn't the best choice for an everyday car, but most cars on this site aren't being built with that in mind anyways.
Andy
Young Gun
02-09-2008, 01:28 PM
you want bad roads???? hahah try houston...whew it seems like you need to get an alignment every 3000 miles hahaha...i guess alot of it has to do with how you how you drive your car, I would run drop springs just so I could swerve to avoid the potholes...but thats just me...
el-camino
02-09-2008, 01:54 PM
hmm, yeep...you can sleep around the holes:spank2:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/02/US_Speed_limitw-1.jpg
matdean
02-12-2008, 08:54 AM
So whats the word on http://www.mcgaughys.com/ Spindles? I have a 2" drop pair sitting in my garage ready to go on my 63 Chevy Biscayne Wagon ( Impala ) ( B Body x frame ) I dont want it to drive like poop, but it is a big wagon so any help will be great.
Reasearching steering and suspension now, then hope to be able to swap the engine and tranny to an auto and FI of some form. (LSx or LT1)
I know alot of this stuff can be done, but I dont really want to have almost as much in steering and suspension as I have in the entire vehicle.
Danksta14
07-31-2010, 04:38 PM
So...for a 69 Camaro what would be the best set-up I would need if i were running 18x8 up front ?. I want a lower stance with the best possible ride quality for aggressive driving.? I have 13"wilwoods. I have the QA1-1250 coilover set-up with tubular upper and lower arms.... Im a bit of confused on what is the best approach?
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