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Steve Chryssos
03-07-2006, 01:10 PM
I need header help. I must buy new headers this week in preparation for Power Tour.

If you have a gen 1 small block first gen Camaro with Hedman 66003 headers, please reply with a good side view shot of the header collector region relative to the frame rail. Also measure how far the collectors hang below the frame rail at their lowet point and describe your measuring point so that I can duplicate the measurement here for comparison. I'm sure this is a common concern on our lowered vehicles, so I will compile your response and others in the exhaust section for future reference.

I greatly appreciate your assistance.

Steve68
03-07-2006, 02:33 PM
Steve hit up Rick Dorian I think he has a set of those, and I sold him a new set if I remember correctly,

Steve Chryssos
03-07-2006, 03:20 PM
Thanks. I'll try to get him into the thread so others can see as well.

CarlC
03-07-2006, 04:42 PM
Steve,

Check your email.

Steve Chryssos
03-07-2006, 05:09 PM
Got it. Thanks.

Rick Dorion
03-08-2006, 04:14 AM
I'll shoot some pics, Steve. One comment - these will apply to older design 65003's. You can ID them but the square port. I returned a newer set that was necked down to fit what I was told (by Hedman)are a shared 1 5/8" flange. The port is oval and a poor fit. Wouldn't fit without serious pipe denting. Can't comment on the rest of the fit/alignment! Stay tuned. My current set are painted and I've had them for 7 years and love them. I bought Steve's because they're ceramic coated.

Steve Chryssos
03-08-2006, 05:33 AM
Yeah, that's a big part of the problem. I have large 1.5 x1.45 square ports and I NEED a 29-30" long by 1-3/4 primary. There are plenty of 1-5/8" headers around. But all of the 1-3/4 stuff is geared towards drag racers.

I'll post a pic from Carl Casanova's Hookers. Maybe we can all take pix in the same manner.

Did that come out wrong?

Steve68
03-08-2006, 06:11 AM
I think the ones I sold Rick are bigger than 1 5/8, I want to say there 1-3/4, maybe he can gice you some measurements,

protour_chevelle
03-08-2006, 06:39 AM
Yeah, that's a big part of the problem. I have large 1.5 x1.45 square ports and I NEED a 29-30" long by 1-3/4 primary. There are plenty of 1-5/8" headers around. But all of the 1-3/4 stuff is geared towards drag racers.

I'll post a pic from Carl Casanova's Hookers. Maybe we can all take pix in the same manner.

Did that come out wrong?

Get some QTP headers. 1 7/8" primaries.

-Matt

Steve Chryssos
03-08-2006, 07:30 AM
According to my homework, 66003's are 1-3/4" primary. 1-5/8" headers aren't bad, but they do limit peak rpm on most applications other than the typical hydraulic flat tappet cam. No sense running out of steam if building a 150mph car.
/Steve

Rick Dorion
03-08-2006, 08:07 AM
The 1 5/8 would not cover your ports. My protoplines are 1.45 square and needed the 1 3/4 pipes. Unless Hedman has changed their production method, the new 65003's, by using the flange for a 1 5/8" pipe, negated their usefulness.

Steve68
03-08-2006, 08:21 AM
The the Halls commerical "Breathe, Breathe is good" and so is getting rid of hi flowing exhaust

HILROD
03-08-2006, 08:31 AM
https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/vbgarage.php?do=getimage&id=1997 This isn't the best pic, but it'll give you an idea. I can get better pics but I'll have to get with the owner. They do fit nice only one tube near the steering box. FRANK EDITED TO FIX THE PIC BUT YOU CAN'T SEE IT TO GOOD SMALLER SIZED!

Steve Chryssos
03-08-2006, 09:16 AM
Thanks to Carl Casanova. Pic is from his awesome 68 RS. Quite possibly the world's most sorted out honest to goodness pro-touring car. Headers are Hooker 2131 in conjunction with stock height subframe bushings. Measurements are as follows:

1) Distance from bottom of frame rail to bottom of collector flange: 1-7/8"
2) Distance from floorboard to bottom of collector flange: 5-3/8"
3) Distance from aft subframe vertical edge to collector flange: 19"
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Steve Chryssos
03-08-2006, 09:22 AM
https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/vbgarage.php?do=getimage&id=1997 This isn't the best pic, but it'll give you an idea. I can get better pics but I'll have to get with the owner. They do fit nice only one tube near the steering box. FRANK EDITED TO FIX THE PIC BUT YOU CAN'T SEE IT TO GOOD SMALLER SIZED!

Yeah, it's tough to see. From what I can tell they don't hang below the subframe at all. What headers are those?

Steve Chryssos
03-08-2006, 09:28 AM
The 1 5/8 would not cover your ports. My protoplines are 1.45 square and needed the 1 3/4 pipes. Unless Hedman has changed their production method, the new 65003's, by using the flange for a 1 5/8" pipe, negated their usefulness.


That kills it for the 65003's It's looking like Hooker 2131's so far. I'll give Al Noe at Stainless Works a call and try to get him to post.

Matt,
I checked out QTP. Looks like it's all LSx stuff. Nice pipes though.

Rick Dorion
03-08-2006, 09:34 AM
I'll hold off on pics then(?)

Steve Chryssos
03-08-2006, 09:57 AM
Sure. But then again, the pix might help others who are faced with the same questions.

Neil B
03-08-2006, 12:36 PM
Sure. But then again, the pix might help others who are faced with the same questions.

I'm sure Carl mentioned in his PM, but he has modified his 2131's. I'll post some pictures of my stock 2131's as soon as I can get the car back on the lift. The collector flange points straight down on the driver's side and if you have raised port heads, they're probably going to hit the pitman arm too. Also, even the 2131's are going to be a tight fit on your ports as they only measure approx. 1.5" OD width at the flange.

Ralph LoGrasso
03-08-2006, 12:44 PM
These might work for your application: http://www.stainlessworks.net/cart/product_info.php?cPath=94_250_252&products_id=830 1 3/4" primaries and they offer 1 7/8" stuff as well.

I've got a set of SW 1 3/4" primary headers for my 4th gen, top quality stuff to say the least.

alstainlessworks
03-08-2006, 02:17 PM
Hi Steve

Left you a Vmail, but also wanted to try to help as well.

We make a number of different small block chevy flange styles for various heads. We make a full round 1 5/8" od (1.495 id), full round 1 3/4" (1.62 id), 1 3/4" tall oval that measures about 1.300 wide-id versus 1.55 tall-id), and we also offer a square flange that is 1.55 X 1.55 od (1.42 id). We also offer a "1 7/8" tall oval" that is 1.425X1.675.

We typically use the 1 3/4" tall oval for 1 3/4" headers, 1 7/8" tall oval for 1 7/8" headers, etc. Using the larger flange with the smaller header tube size is possible, but they have to be hammer welded to the port-possible to do but much more time consuming than using the "right" sized flanges. Also, when we build a header, we insert the tube into the flange and weld the tube to the flange on the cylinder head port face-not on the outside of the flange-thus the ID/OD dimensions that I give account for the .065 wall thickness of the tubing being subtracted.

We can also cut flanges from a cylinder head or template to your exhaust ports-we have two trumpf cnc lasers in house and have cut flanges for everything from flatheads to brad anderson top fuel engines.

Our first gen Camaro headers were protoyped on my car-my 67 is lowered about 2 1/2 to 3" in the front and I have never drug the headers. They do hang below the bottom of the subframe rail which parallels the header, but we tucked them up as tight as possible.

Let me know if I can help. My email is [email protected] I am not on the board every day so sometimes emailing me is better.

Thanks
Al
Stainless Works

Steve Chryssos
03-08-2006, 06:14 PM
Wow. That's some killer feedback. Thanks Al. I'll give you a call tomorrow.

Here are the pix of my busted as JR $69.95 headers. Car has an aftermarket clip. The frame rails hang 3.5" below the floorboards with full height bushings.
The 3 bolt collector flanges are about 3.25" off the ground (note: The back of the car was on low jackstands so we must eyeball the numbers.) For comparisons sake, the collectors sit 2" below the bottom of the framre rails at the flange. You may also notice that the number 3 spark plug interferes with the number one primary tube. These are ported angled plug World Products Sportsman II heads.
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Steve68
03-08-2006, 08:21 PM
What the hell are those BJ Alumacoat 5000, you right they are low, My car with the BB and front cut springs(BB) sat about that low, 14" Centerlines auto drags on it too, collector gaskets got eaten monthly!

HILROD
03-08-2006, 08:24 PM
The headers on this car are the hedman 1 3/4 long tubes. If I remember right they hand down just barely past the subframe. If you wand I'll get pics or measurements tomorrow. The car har stock subframe stock size aluminum mounts. FRANK

Damn True
03-08-2006, 08:32 PM
Hi Steve

Left you a Vmail, but also wanted to try to help as well.

We make a number of different small block chevy flange styles for various heads. We make a full round 1 5/8" od (1.495 id), full round 1 3/4" (1.62 id), 1 3/4" tall oval that measures about 1.300 wide-id versus 1.55 tall-id), and we also offer a square flange that is 1.55 X 1.55 od (1.42 id). We also offer a "1 7/8" tall oval" that is 1.425X1.675.

We typically use the 1 3/4" tall oval for 1 3/4" headers, 1 7/8" tall oval for 1 7/8" headers, etc. Using the larger flange with the smaller header tube size is possible, but they have to be hammer welded to the port-possible to do but much more time consuming than using the "right" sized flanges. Also, when we build a header, we insert the tube into the flange and weld the tube to the flange on the cylinder head port face-not on the outside of the flange-thus the ID/OD dimensions that I give account for the .065 wall thickness of the tubing being subtracted.

We can also cut flanges from a cylinder head or template to your exhaust ports-we have two trumpf cnc lasers in house and have cut flanges for everything from flatheads to brad anderson top fuel engines.

Our first gen Camaro headers were protoyped on my car-my 67 is lowered about 2 1/2 to 3" in the front and I have never drug the headers. They do hang below the bottom of the subframe rail which parallels the header, but we tucked them up as tight as possible.

Let me know if I can help. My email is [email protected] I am not on the board every day so sometimes emailing me is better.

Thanks
Al
Stainless Works

That's what I'm talkin about!

My headers will be bought from you.

TitoJones
03-08-2006, 10:16 PM
Steevo-

One word for ya-

Stahl. (http://www.stahlheaders.com/Web110P_1.html)

Tyler

Steve68
03-09-2006, 03:28 AM
Those are pretty Tyler,

MarkM66
03-09-2006, 08:35 AM
I'm sure Carl mentioned in his PM, but he has modified his 2131's. I'll post some pictures of my stock 2131's as soon as I can get the car back on the lift. The collector flange points straight down on the driver's side and if you have raised port heads, they're probably going to hit the pitman arm too. Also, even the 2131's are going to be a tight fit on your ports as they only measure approx. 1.5" OD width at the flange.

I'm running Hooker Super Comps on my '70 Nova. Yeah, on the drivers side the flange does point straight down. I though mine were screw ups or something, lol. I have no idea why they did that. I need to ditch them, they're to low.

Also, on Carls I see were a tube has been welded. Where they modified here?

Steve Chryssos
03-09-2006, 10:51 AM
Those Stahls are very nice. But as True stated, all roads seem to lead towards Stainless Works. The Hookers and Hedmans both seem to have issues.

Al,
I will pull my headers this evening and accurately measure my exhaust ports. Thank you for the detailed response. I'm sure a lot of other hot rodders with lowered vehicles have the same concerns.

Steve Chryssos
03-09-2006, 10:52 AM
The headers on this car are the hedman 1 3/4 long tubes. If I remember right they hand down just barely past the subframe. If you wand I'll get pics or measurements tomorrow. The car har stock subframe stock size aluminum mounts. FRANK

Let's see those pictures. The small exhaust port flange on the Hedmans eleiminate them as a possibility for my specific application, but I'm sure others will benefit from the photos.

Steve68
03-09-2006, 11:46 AM
I too am leaning toward SW for my LS1 headers, AL and I did a little e-mail action awhile back,

Steve Chryssos
03-09-2006, 12:07 PM
Yeah. If someone has a low output small block where a 1-5/8 header will work, then there are way more options. Shorty and mid headers might even be the right solution for ultimate ground clearance.

But when you step up power, rpm and even basic specs like exhaust port size, it's looking like the $69.95, $250 and $400 headers don't cut it.

Bummer.

ItsA68
03-09-2006, 12:10 PM
Tyler,

Do you have any pictures of the Stahl Headers installed on a car? It is REALLY freaking amazing, but I am working right now to look into what headers to get for my 68 project. I have the Brodix Track 1 heads with the D shaped ports though, and I wanted to get something that would match them properly. Im hoping to make close to 600 HP na, and need some decent size tubes. I have searched this board extensively, and have seen you mention Stahl about a bizzillion times! but I haven't seen any of the actual headers on a car. I want max ground clearance, they need to fit the heads, and clear my Unisteer rack. I think I need 1 3/4 or 1 7/8 tubes, and have looked at Stahl, Stainless works, Lemmons, and Headers by Ed. (I think Ed really doesn't sell headers though, he just sells info, and parts to build your own headers.) Stahl seems like they have the most experience, and even made the first set of headers for the first gen cars, plus they can deal with any flange type. Looking at my heads I may be better with 6 bolt to 7 bolt adaptor flanges with the larger tubes.

Steve, I really like your car's look, and if I can even get mine looking almost as good one day, I'll consider myself lucky. I especially like your taste in wheels!

I have direct experience with the 2131 (1 3/4") hookers, and I was not happy with them at all. The tubes go through the flanges, and stick out about 1/8" inch instead of being ground flat with the flange. The so called "O-ring" seal is a load of poo, as it doesn't work. I changed gaskets every 3 months with those. Plus the grease fitting on the idler arm cut a hole in one of the tubes on the pass side, Plus they dragged on any speed bumps that I found. AND to top it off eventually the little oval Hooker badge fell off and left me with a little pin hold leak! Spark plug access was OK with straight plug heads, and they didn't hit any Other places. With a slight re-design, they could be decent I guess, but they'd need to tuck in closer to the floor, and also clear the idler, and have the flanges changed completely.

I'm hoping you guys come up with the answer! as I'm in the same boat as Steve. Won't make the power tour for a few more years, but I am looking for headers now.

~~fred

Steve Chryssos
03-09-2006, 03:03 PM
Fred,
Looks like you have even greater issues than me thanks to your D-Ports. You might be able to get adapter plates from Stahl and then shop around for headers.

I wonder if a 1-3/4 Tri Y would provide ample performance? If so, it would be a hot seller. Ground clearance and performance without compromise.

We'll figure it all out.

CarlC
03-09-2006, 06:29 PM
You're right Steve, inexpensive is not easier and in most cases does not work for us. Given the headaches with mine, next time I will spend a few bucks more and get it right.

Here's a list of what was done to mine and other considerations.

1) The distance from the bottom of the frame rail to the bottom of the collector flange = 1-7/8"
2) The distance from the floorboard to the bottom of the collector flange = 5-3/8"
3) The distance from the aft subframe vertical edge to the collector flange = 19"

Some things to consider:

A) The car has stock height GW aluminum subframe bushings.
B) The drivers side header flange was cut off and reclocked. As installed from Hooker one of the bolt holes is at 6 o'clock and catches on the pavement.
C) The #7 tube is cut and re-routed for pitman arm clearance.
D) The #2 tube is cut at the cylinder head flange and a new 90* welded on. The original has horrible bolt access on the inside of the 90*, i.e. the second aft bolt.
E) The cylinder head bolt holes are slotted approx 1/4" due to the raised exhaust port design, so normally the head would be 1/4" lower.
F) With the Tremec TKO transmission the engine has more downward angle than stock. Not by much, but you could pick up some additional clearance.


I saw a set of Doug's Tri-Y on a '69Z at Super Chevy Pomona last year. Outstanding fit and clearance. They appeared to be 1-3/4". This is another possible option, along with Lemons and Stahl.

I would not hesitate for a second to go Tri-Y.

Modo Innovations
03-09-2006, 08:00 PM
As for ground clearence....I talked to Kyle at DSE some time back and asked the question "which header offers the best ground clearence. Now I know that ride height is a major factor, but take that factor out.
Kyle said, "The best ground clearence...BEST is Stahl, NEXT is Stainless Works, and THEN Hooker Super Comps". I had to choose the Hooker's because of budget, but I would love to have either of the other two in no particular order. My 2 cents.

David Pozzi
03-09-2006, 08:27 PM
I've got a pair of 10 year old Stahl 1 3/4" headers but not installed. If you need a dimension off them relative to the head flange, I can extend off that and measure down to the collector for you.

HILROD
03-09-2006, 09:37 PM
It has to stop raining here for me to get pics. The ports on the hedmans are big and square. I know these are much bigger than other hedmans I've seen. I had to special order them. I think JEGS carries them. FRANK

Rick Dorion
03-10-2006, 04:40 AM
I wish 1 3/4 tri-y's were made. Another option might be Doug's 1 3/4" regular design headers. I think Mean69 has a set of Hedman 1 3/4's he's happy with. They're not the 65003's though but one of the 'race' sets.

Steve Chryssos
03-10-2006, 05:11 AM
Yup. Whomever builds 1-5/8" and 1-3/4 Tri-Y's that make power will corner the pro-touring header market. All twelve of us. :lmao:

Doug's was bought by Pertronix, who trimmed the line. I don't see any good 1-3/4's in their product line. Nothing confidence inspiring anyway.

And Thorley was bought by Jardine. Same issue. Thorley had some cool part numbers. Looks like they got the axe too.

Steve Chryssos
03-10-2006, 05:15 AM
I've got a pair of 10 year old Stahl 1 3/4" headers but not installed. If you need a dimension off them relative to the head flange, I can extend off that and measure down to the collector for you.

I'm going to bolt on a pair of headers that I borrowed. Maybe we'll compare some numbers. But I'm starting to grow weary of this search. Let's face it. Proper Pro-touring headers are $700 and up. We can pry it open (the wallet) or we can scrape, hammer, cut, weld, and/or leak.

CarlC
03-10-2006, 09:18 AM
The Lemons that are on a friend's car are superb. The basic design and layout is similar to the later model Stahl. Four years ago they were $850 with no coatings.

After all of the effort, time, and heartache, next time I'm spending less money overall and getting either Stahl, Lemons, or a custom set made. My local exhaust guy does very good work and will make a set for around $1200 to my specifications and layout.

I had a rant going, but better sense prevailed and I hit the delete button.

Steve Chryssos
03-10-2006, 09:36 AM
I think this thread is ready for the exhaust section, if a mod or admin would like to move it over.

ItsA68
03-10-2006, 10:32 AM
It appears that Stahl has at least three different major designs for the first gen camaro.....the Drag race set early, and late, and then the road race set. It appears that the routing is a lot different between the early and late. I like the idea of max ground clearance, but want the best fit up top too...I'm thinking at least for now, I go with the Stahl. I guess I should talk to them to decide which of their designs to go with.

The late model ones seem like they're for raised exhaust ports? I think mine are only raised ever so slightly with the Track 1 heads....I wish Lemons had some good photos....

Carl, what did you want to rant about? I for one want all the opinions I can get! We all know that 90% of the headers that supposedly fit our cars are crap. I want to know which of the GOOD ones, (stahl, lemons) fit the best and are what I want.

~~fred

ItsA68
03-10-2006, 01:52 PM
Carl,

Any chance you can snap some pics of the Lemon's on your friends car?

CarlC
03-10-2006, 09:47 PM
Sorry, it's a ways away.

The rant had nothing to do with real, factual, useful info. More of a venting session. I feel better now.

David Pozzi
03-10-2006, 10:18 PM
Tracl 1's are raised a little, the fast burn heads are raised a lot.

Steve Chryssos
03-11-2006, 12:59 AM
Carl,
Any chance you can snap some pics of the Lemon's on your friends car?

What is it with header manufacturers and brand names? My car Stahled on my way to hire a Hooker. What a Lemon.

Yeah well, I couldn't sleep. (No really, check the time stamp)

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Todds69
03-11-2006, 01:55 PM
I have a set of Super Comps 1 7/8" I'm thinking about replacing them pretty soon funding permitting. I've already had ground clearance issues with these, nice flat spots on the tubes, not real bad but pisses you off noe the less... I like the Stainless Works maybe next time. Might go with the 1 3/4" for a little more bottom end.

Steve Chryssos
03-12-2006, 08:15 PM
Found this pic in another P-T.com thread. These are dougs headers part number 375Y. By far, this Tri-Y design is the ultimate full length header as far as ground clearance is concerned. But with 1-5/8" primaries, they are not appropriate for high power and or big port heads.
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Neil B
03-13-2006, 03:01 PM
These are the 1 3/4" Hookers on my car. As you can see in the first shot, the primary passes right under the steering box where the pitman arm attaches. My car has heads with stock exhaust port location and there is evidence that the primary just barely touches the pitman arm when the engine torques over.

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ItsA68
03-13-2006, 06:52 PM
I had the 2131 1 3/4 Hooker super comps on my first Camaro, and the grease fitting on the passenger side tie rod hit one of the tubes. I think I just left it out unless I needed to grease the tie rod, and it was OK. Don't recall having problems with the pitman arm.

Anyone have any pictures of the Stahl headers on their first gen small block car?

~~fred

Steve Chryssos
03-13-2006, 06:58 PM
Problem Solved!!!

BA.
08-19-2006, 06:06 PM
Hope this is not bad juju bringing up this dead thread but I thought there was some great info going on here.
It sounded like the thread was actually for the older small block Chebby motor, NOT an LSx. Personally, I need LSx info so I thought I'd use this great thread to see if any LSx data has bubbled up.

There weren't as many pics here of header installations as we could certainly all use though.

Does anyone have fitment info related to the Kooks or the 21st Century Street Machine ones like Steve68LS2 now has?
Pics of an installed set of Stahls or Lemons would be sweet too, does no one have them?
Any pics of the Stainless Works or Street & Performance?

My main goal is GROUND CLEARANCE, GROUND CLEARANCE, GROUND CLEARANCE! :) I want them so tight they squeak!
well, ....ok, maybe not quite that tight, but really really tight!

.

Sir Don
09-12-2006, 02:54 PM
15 years ago I put a tri Y on my 69 Rally car. The aluminum skid plate fit flat across the subframe and the headers were just off the
skid plate, until I dented the skid plate once or twice, ok maybe 4 or 5 times. No collector plate either, so you welded or clamped the
rest of the exhaust on.

Now I'm rebuilding another 69 camaro and I would buy a 1 3/4 tri-Y if someone had them out there. Anything change since April this year?

GIDRDUN
09-12-2006, 04:22 PM
Doug's Headers ( not Thorley ) part number D368 is 1 3/4" primaries with a 3" collector. These fit first gen camaro and second gen nova with aftermarket heads, angle plugs, power steering and hug the floor boards. I have installed many sets without issues. When I designed them we ran them on a 743hp 383 so i know they work. Just my 2 cents. Hope it helps.

LowBuckX
01-30-2007, 01:17 AM
Found this pic in another P-T.com thread. These are dougs headers part number 375Y. By far, this Tri-Y design is the ultimate full length header as far as ground clearance is concerned. But with 1-5/8" primaries, they are not appropriate for high power and or big port heads.
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Those are actually Thorley 376Y1. As far as primaries being to small I can point you to a few people running 1 1/2 primary headers on 383s running well into the 11s

Rick Dorion
01-30-2007, 05:20 AM
Unfortunately for me, the ports on those are too small for my heads. I agree the primary size for a street car is fine.