View Full Version : 78 t/a suspension ?'s
LS1_78Bandit
02-25-2006, 11:26 PM
OK, just finished doing a bit of searching through this forum, now I want to check in on a couple things. I have a newly-restored 78 T/A that I'm now doing a drivetrain swap on - putting in an LS1+T56. I'm also planning upgrades on the suspension and brakes. This is not really a racer - primarily a street driver that I want to handle well and be a good performer. Maybe some day I'll try some races, but not in the near future.
First, I found some good info in this thread:
http://69.94.75.177/forum/showthread.php?t=6946
And this thread seemed to indicate the Hotchkis TVS system is pretty good:
http://69.94.75.177/forum/showthread.php?t=14332
So I was thinking that for a simple and effective upgrade I'd get the TVS system. Any reasons I shouldn't? Are there any places (sponsors) that have good prices on the setup? Ideally in the CA area to cut down shipping ....
And for the TVS system - do they let you sort've mix-and-match? I ask because the LS1+T56 is going to be a fair bit lighter than my 400 Poncho (plus I'm probably ditching the a/c). So I'm going to need milder springs than the standard 2nd gen setup (or at least that's my assumption ...).
Oh, and I don't think the TVS system comes with shocks. Any recommendations on shocks?
In addition I was thinking of subframe connectors. Again for simplicity, I was thinking of the bolt-on connectors. How inferior are they to the weld-in types? If I've got a shop that can do the welding, how hard are they to install (direct relationship to how much I need to pay to get them installed :) )?
For my relatively mild needs, how important is it to do control arms?
Is there anything else I should be looking at? Hopefully not since I've already exceeded my original budget by a factor of 6. https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
zbugger
02-26-2006, 12:17 AM
Ok, here's the deal. You have a good baseline in gettng the Hotchkis TVS kit. As you read in one of the posted threads, it's a really good kit for a street car. There are things you can upgrade besides what they have. For shocks, get the Bilsteins that Hotchkis sells. They are valved for their springs.
Honestly, unless you're going racing, you won't need control arms. It's not necessary on a 2nd gen. Subframe connectors on the other hand, those are necessary. Especially with the higher rate springs. The bolt on connectors tend to loosen up after a while, and then they start opening up the mounting holes and sometimes break the bolts. This in turn keeps them from stopping the flex that they are supposed to be controlling. Get the weld in type like Pro-Touring F-body sells. They aren't difficult to install.
Oh, and where in Callifornia are you to give a recommendation on where to get the suspension?
zbugger
02-26-2006, 12:19 AM
Ummm... I forgot to add something to that post. Hotchkis built a 71 Camaro to showcase their suspension on. They had a LS1 and T56 in it. They had to cut the coils to get the stance they wanted. It shouldn't be a problem for you to cut your coils.
LS1_78Bandit
02-26-2006, 01:23 AM
Thanks for the info zbugger! As for where I'm located ... I'm right in your neck of the woods. I live in Pacifica. I work for TiVo in Alviso, which is just off Great America and 237. And I volunteer Search&Rescue for the San Mateo Sheriff's Office, which is right in Redwood City, so I'm there regularly.
That's assuming the Redwood City you're in is the one in San Mateo ...
Oh, and the drivetrain conversion, and likely the suspension, is being done in Fremont.
LS1_78Bandit
02-26-2006, 01:28 AM
Oh, and another question - is the installation of the weld-in SFC's that you mentioned similar to that that's in the sticky? That looked pretty involved, especially needing to pull out all the interior stuff - not something I'd look forward to doing since I *just* finished having the entire car restored ....
zbugger
02-26-2006, 01:47 AM
Well damn. I work in Mountain View off Shoreline Blvd. And I'm right behind the Cemetary on Woodside Road. Small world, isn't it? We should hook up some time. It's fun meeting other members. Hmm.... That doesn't sound right. By members, I mean people who have signed up to post on the site. Not what some gutter breeds around here might be imagining. Damn perves.....
Anyway, for the Hotchkis stuff, you could get it from Jegs. Summit works too. Or you could go to San Jose to the Speed Merchant and order them there. I actually drove to Reno to get my rear springs at Summit. I was in the area.......
For the Subframe connectors, no, they are not as involved as the sticky. They mount under the car without any cutting. I'm debating on what I want to do right now though. I have decisions to make.
MikeDVC
02-26-2006, 07:32 AM
I second Allen on the Bilsteins, from my experience they work great with the Hotchkis springs.
LS1_78Bandit
02-26-2006, 08:42 AM
Thanks for the advice. I didn't realize Summit was in Reno ...
On the Bilsteins, I want to make sure I get the right thing. When I go to the hotchkis site I see their "HPS 1000" wich is a bilstein but they say they're tuned in-house.
http://www.hotchkis.net/cgi-bin/EDCstore.pl?user_action=detail&catalogno=70010009
On summit racing, I just see straight bilsteins, no mention of hotchkis. And there are 2 versions, the standard and heavy duty.
http://store.summitracing.com/default.asp?target=egnsearch.asp&N=115+-59143+-59338+-42236
http://store.summitracing.com/default.asp?target=egnsearch.asp&N=115+-59143+-59338+-42236
I'm assuming standard is what I want. But if I ordered from summit, would they be the same as if I ordered directly from hotchkis?
MikeDVC
02-26-2006, 08:43 AM
Not sure about Summit, I ordered mine directly from Hotchkis.
Lowend
02-26-2006, 09:00 AM
I'll add a note here
The weld in SFC's are the only way to go.
BUT
You need to replace your subframe bushings first. These bushings are between the subframe and the body. The factory ones are rubber and even when new allow too much movement. After 30 years the rubber bushings turn to dust
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
You can have all the cool suspension stuff on earth, but if the body is squirming around on the subframe its a waste of money.
I like the Global West (www.globalwest.net) models the best
I'll also note, you can get all this stuff locally at my former shop
www.speedmerchant.com in San Jose
LS1_78Bandit
02-26-2006, 10:02 AM
You need to replace your subframe bushings first.
I'll also note, you can get all this stuff locally at my former shop
Thanks for the reminder! I read that in the Pro Touring book I got, but completely forgot about it!
www.speedmerchant.com (http://www.speedmerchant.com) in San Jose
I thought I remembered you saying something negative about them in the ls1tech forum a while back. Maybe that they were over-priced? I forget. But I guess since you're recommending them now, you think they're good?
zbugger
02-26-2006, 11:22 AM
I got all my guages from Speed Merchant. The pricing is a bit higher than Summit and Jeg's, but that's because they are MUCH smaller and don't do the bulk that the others do. Good bunch of guys there though.
If you want to get the shocks from Summit, go online and type in the Hotchkis part number. They have them there. You can also call them with the part number.
Lowend
02-26-2006, 06:04 PM
yeah when I was there the prices were a little higher than the mailorder guys, we worked very hard to get them down. Now I would be suprised if you found a 10% difference on anything.
The knowledge base there is pretty amazing. Even though Paul and I left, Tony Huntimer (who wrote the Pro-Touring book literally) still works there
I know - I sound like a salesman, but I worked there for 6 years, its kinda hard to stop.
Marcus SC&C
02-27-2006, 08:46 PM
`78 TA have always been one of my favorites,had 3 myself including one set up as a canyon racer in the `80s. A good set of weld in subframe connectors are one of the first things I`d do. I always had problems with the bolt on style hanging down and dragging on speed bumps etc. Some of the weld in style require notching the rear foot wells,check before you order. The Hotchkis springs are probably a good bet,although they don`t list the spring rates. The bars aren`t really necessary if you already have factory WS6 bars,they`re already huge. Even the RTS bars are fairly large. If you don`t have WS6 bars I may still have an extra set. I`d be more inclined to get the springs and a set of adj. QA1 shocks with the money saved on the bars. Tubular upper arms aren`t in themselves going to do much for you,aside from providing more + caster. The geometry on the 2nd gens is mild but not really bad at all. Racers back in the day did a G mod like modification (the numbers actually speced by Chevy engineers) to get more - camber gain and raise the RC just a bit. We offer a package with tall upper ball joints and adj. arms to get similar gains and give a wide range of adjustability. These cars are really a great performance platform as they require a whole lot less work and money to get modern perf. handling out of them than some other popular muscle cars. Mark SC&C
LS1_78Bandit
02-28-2006, 12:00 AM
Mark, thanks for the info. Much appreciated.
One of the biggest reasons I was inclined to go with the Hotchkis TVS system is simply that this project has consumed an inordinate amount of my brain cycles and I feel like my head is about to explode. So instead of trying to piece things together, it seemed like a complete "drop in" solution might be a good choice.
I just looked at your site and I see that you have some suspension packages. If you could make some recommendations on your products and/or other products that could be put together into a complete package, I'd love to hear it. And for bonus points you can compare it to the TVS system so that I can understand the pros/cons. :)
As for the WS6 and sway bars ... Honestly, I'm not sure if I have the WS6 bars. I'm pretty sure I do, but I don't know for certain because I haven't tracked down the build sheet yet and I can't use the door sticker to divine the answer because I think the driver's door was replaced at one point. I think the only way to know now is to take some calipers and measure .... But I was thinking that even if I had the WS6 bars, the car is almost 30 years old and it sat in a back parking lot for over 7 years in NE PA not to mention weathering many winters in NE PA and Ithaca NY, so replacing the bars might be a good idea and the hollow hotchkis bars would drop a little weight. The age is also the reason I was looking for a complete package - the more things that get replaced and/or upgraded the more warm fuzzies I'm going to have when I dive into a corner. :drive2:
But given that this project has stretched way beyond reason in terms of cost, finding a good "bang for your buck" solution would be great and I'm all ears ... just remember, at this point - simpler is better for me. :)
Marcus SC&C
02-28-2006, 08:04 PM
If the car still has the original instrument panel RTS cars have a little red badge in the middle of the panel. I don`t know why they didn`t have a WS6 badge when it was the top option? Also the RTS cars have a 1.125"OD front bar,the WS6 cars have a 1.25"OD bar. Honestly that`s plenty of swaybar induced roll rate. You can upgrade to poly end link bushings and greasable poly frame bushings if you`d like quicker response from them. In fact if you tweak the geometry with our Stage 1 you may find it works better for you with the smaller RTS bar. There aren`t that many choices for performance rear springs for 2nd gens. The Hotchkis are probably as good as any and since at least your rear springs are probably shot I`d just get their springs all the way around. Use the stock bars with new bushings,the bars don`t wear out and it`ll save you quite a bit of money. They`re quick and easy to swap later if you want to splurge on lighter tubular bars. New bushings are a good idea. Del a Lums in the lower control arms are nice if they`re in the budget,if not Moog HD Problem Solver bushings work well for a lot less money if they`re available for this application. Don`t skimp on shocks,as I said I prefer the QA1 adj. shocks for their good performance/cost ratio. If you want non adj. shocks I`d suggest Bilsteins. There are some "tricks" you can do too. There are solid aluminum subframe bushings available that are thinner than stock to lower the body over the subframe for a lower CG and less deflection. Herb Adam/VSE used to sell them. His son Matt who owns VSE now may still? Another is to weld up and redrill the holes in the front leaf spring perches 1/2" higher increase the anti squat of the rear suspension for more traction off the line and out of corners. Don`t forget to check the pinion angle after lowering the car and/or doing the mod to the perches. It`s hard to get all this stuff into one post. Feel free to give me a call at SC&C. Mark SC&C
zbugger
02-28-2006, 08:12 PM
Marcus, I see a typo. The WS6 had a 1.25" bar up front.
Marcus SC&C
03-01-2006, 07:49 PM
Good eye! I`m not the world`s greatest typist,guess the 2 didn`t take. I fixed it. :twothumbs Mark SC&C
LS1_78Bandit
03-01-2006, 10:51 PM
Thanks for the info Mark! I'm going to send you an e-mail with questions and info. I'll try to follow up with a phone call so that you don't have to stress your typing abilities too much. :)
LS1_78Bandit
03-02-2006, 05:31 PM
I want to really thank Mark for spending an inordinate amount of time on the phone today talking about all of this. And of course everyone else here who has provided tons of good info both in this thread and in all the threads I've been searching through. I think I've got it mostly nailed down now. Here's what I'm thinking, if anyone has thoughts.
- Hotchkis front&rear springs
- keep my stock sway bars. FYI, I believe all 78 t/a's came with a 1.25" front sway bar. The WS6 only changed the rear from 3/4" to 5/8".
- QA1 shocks
- aluminum body bushings from pro-touringf-body
- subframe connectors from pro-touringf-body
- Global West tie-rod sleeves
- Probably go with the SC&C stage1 kit (tall ball-joint and adjustable upper arms) - not 100% on this yet, it's probably more than I need but I think it could be good plus I think Mark deserves something for all his effort. :)
One of the final things I still haven't totally figured out is the various bushings. I need control arm bushings and sway bar mounting bushings and end links at the very least. I'm not sure if there's anything else that might need to be replaced (if anyone can think of something, let me know!). Now the question is what type of bushing.
It seems del-a-lum is probably ideal from a performance standpoint, but a number of people say it rides pretty harsh for a street car, and they're kinda pricey. So then I was thinking of the Energy Suspension polyurethane, but when I searched on poly bushings I found a whole pile of flame wars, some saying they're good and some saying they're terrible (primarily due to unpredictable handling due to binding, plus the squeaking). Some countered that the Energy Suspensions let you grease them so they don't squeak ...
So now I'm somewhat at a loss of what to use:
- sway bars: poly or rubber?
- control arms: poly, rubber or suck-it-up and go with del-a-lum
BTW, to save someone else from this ... I had been thinking of getting one of the front end kits from P-S-T (http://www.p-s-t.com/gm/gmfekpgs.html) since it seemed like an easy way to replace the bushings and parts I needed. But after talking to a couple people, they've said that the quality is really low and should be avoided like the plague (2 different people used that same phrase!).
BonzoHansen
03-02-2006, 05:53 PM
That is almost my exact shopping list, less a few parts. I need to call SC&C soon too, I am considering their Stage 2, since I need a lower ball joint anyway. I'm using del-a-lums in the LCA. I have not heard of ride complaints with them. At least not compared to poly. Mine is getting done in stages (damn budget), so springs (& big brakes & wheels) are out this winter.
I plan on using poly bushings with my stock Z28 bars (OE are supposed to be 1.2" & .55", but I haven't measured yet)
zbugger
03-02-2006, 09:04 PM
If you want to talk about buhings, you may want to check my car. I have the PST super front end kit on my car. Poly bushings and all. Then we can also talk about some of the little things you may want to look at. Send me a PM if you want to hook up.
David Pozzi
03-02-2006, 09:34 PM
If you get down to Salinas, we have the full Hotchkis system with Del-A-Lum bushings in our 73 Camaro. You can take a ride and see for yourself. The bushings don't make much difference in ride, the springs and shocks do. GM made pickup trucks with solid bushings up until 1973, then they used rubber but just in the half ton pickups, the heavier stuff got the steel bushings for many years after that.
Polly bushings are stiff too but also sticky.
LS1_78Bandit
03-02-2006, 10:36 PM
Thanks guys!
Allen - PM sent.
David - I'm often not too far from Salinas since I had down to Monterey to go diving quite regularly. Next time I'm headed down I'll let you know and see if you're available.
Thanks again! It's great to have people nearby, especially those willing to help. :)
LS1_78Bandit
03-06-2006, 09:30 AM
Also the RTS cars have a 1.125"OD front bar,the WS6 cars have a 1.25"OD bar. ... Use the stock bars with new bushings,the bars don`t wear out and it`ll save you quite a bit of money.
BTW, all of the 78 t/a's had 1.25" bars, including non-WS6.
Now with the wearing out ... I looked underneath at things the other day and it sure didn't look pretty. So I snapped a few photos. I just want to double-check that you (and/or others) think the stock bar should still be OK.
Also, I have some photos of the steering linkages. I'm wondering if I should consider swapping out any of the parts. FYI, I'll be getting new springs, shocks, upper and lower ball joints (with the SC&C stage2 kit); I'm going to put del-a-lums in the LCA; new UCA and bushings from the stage2 kit; new tie-rod sleeves; and I was going to change the sway bar mounts and end-links for poly bushings.
Anything else?
So here's some pics with the sway bar and also some of the steering linkages.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2006/03/DSCN3553_resizesized-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2006/03/DSCN3537_resizesized-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2006/03/DSCN3538_resizesized-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2006/03/DSCN3548_resizesized-1.jpg
BonzoHansen
03-06-2006, 06:15 PM
While the linkages all look old, you can't tell by looking. You have the shake and look for play. But most of those parts are cheap, considering what you are already spending. The p/s hoses appear to have seen better days.
LS1_78Bandit
03-11-2006, 04:10 PM
yeah when I was there the prices were a little higher than the mailorder guys, we worked very hard to get them down. Now I would be suprised if you found a 10% difference on anything.
When given a choice, I always try and support local stores. They provide lots of great services and it's been pretty tough on them with the internet. So I went down there this afternoon (over 2 hours round-trip drive for me) and ordered a bunch of stuff. Total bill came out higher than I was expecting so when I got home I checked the pricing against what I had written down (from summitracing). I found that most of the parts were at least 30% higher than Summit. Between that and taxes, it was almost $250 different than if I had ordered online. :( That could've more than covered the differential between the AGR and ATS steering boxes I've been debating between. Sigh.
The knowledge base there is pretty amazing. Even though Paul and I left, Tony Huntimer (who wrote the Pro-Touring book literally)
I was hoping to meet Tony, but he wasn't there. The salesman I had was less than enthusiastic and wasn't really able to provide me much info/help - just took my order. I guess to be fair, that might be because I had already done a lot of research based on info here on this site. This is a great resource. Thanks again for all the help!
Anyway, I'm not trying to pick on Speed Merchant, but I really was pretty surprised. I'll probably go back there for my alignment, since I want someone that's pretty knowledgeable to handle that, but I'm not sure I can justify the cost differential for buying more parts there.
Lowend
03-11-2006, 07:12 PM
I don't think you are picking on them...
I went ahead an forewarded your post to the owner of Speed Merchant, feedback is important in any business
TonyHuntimer
03-12-2006, 10:24 AM
Hey LS1,
Sorry I missed you at Speed Merchant. I have a short schedule there... 8 to 5 on Monday, 8 to 3PM Tuesday through Thursday, and 8 to noon on Friday. Not all of the salesman have a grasp on the Pro-Touring scene. Without bad-mouthing an employee, I'll tell you to talk to Rich Deans or Ben Chase for the most knowledge and friendly service.
The new philosophy at Speed Merchant is "we'll match any price from mail order". If you say that you can get it cheaper at Scummit, we'll match it or beat it. You just have to ask. Unfortunately there are some companies and parts that we cannot compete on pricing. The smaller companies like ATS don't have the greatest margins for us to make a dollar to pay our guy to sell it to you. In most cases (except AGR, Weld Wheels, and a couple of others) we can compete with Scummit pricing. AGR's pricing to Speed Merchant is so bad, with my employee discount, I'd pay $100 more if I bought it from anywhere but Scummit.
Sincerely,
Tony Huntimer
RaceHome.com
EFI69Cam
03-12-2006, 11:19 AM
Hey LS1,
Sorry I missed you at Speed Merchant. I have a short schedule there... 8 to 5 on Monday, 8 to 3PM Tuesday through Thursday, and 8 to noon on Friday. Not all of the salesman have a grasp on the Pro-Touring scene. Without bad-mouthing an employee, I'll tell you to talk to Rich Deans or Ben Chase for the most knowledge and friendly service.
The new philosophy at Speed Merchant is "we'll match any price from mail order". If you say that you can get it cheaper at Scummit, we'll match it or beat it. You just have to ask. Unfortunately there are some companies and parts that we cannot compete on pricing. The smaller companies like ATS don't have the greatest margins for us to make a dollar to pay our guy to sell it to you. In most cases (except AGR, Weld Wheels, and a couple of others) we can compete with Scummit pricing. AGR's pricing to Speed Merchant is so bad, with my employee discount, I'd pay $100 more if I bought it from anywhere but Scummit.
Sincerely,
Tony Huntimer
RaceHome.com
They turned down a $1500 order because they did not want to deal with my credit card company. I called DSE direct and they took care of things.
Crazy way to do business if you ask me.
LS1_78Bandit
03-12-2006, 12:59 PM
Hey LS1,
Not all of the salesman have a grasp on the Pro-Touring scene. Without bad-mouthing an employee, I'll tell you to talk to Rich Deans or Ben Chase for the most knowledge and friendly service.
Thanks for the info Tony. I hope I haven't caused any problems by posting my comments. I don't usually do that, but I was a bit dejected after my trip.
Normally when I talk to anyone about the project, they get all excited and want to talk about the details, bounce ideas around, etc. and I end up learning a whole bunch in the process and it often takes me in a new direction. That's a large part of the reason I wanted to drive all that way and talk to someone in person rather than just ordering online.
Then to pay more and get a rather lackluster experience bummed me out.
The new philosophy at Speed Merchant is "we'll match any price from mail order".
That's pretty cool, but that's gotta be tough to do. Retail stores have sales staff, store fronts, etc. that the mail-order guys don't.
As I said, I don't mind paying extra to help support local stores. In all of my hobbies I prefer to go to the local store, even though I pay more because the service usually makes it worth it and because we really need physical shops around.
Unfortunately there are some companies and parts that we cannot compete on pricing. The smaller companies like ATS don't have the greatest margins for us to make a dollar to pay our guy to sell it to you.
Yeah, I totally understand that. What surprised me was that the biggest differential was on the Moog parts I was getting for my steering. I figured on parts like that, it should be easier to get a decent price because they're so commonplace.
Anyway, I appreciate you taking the time to respond to my comments. And I *really* thank you for the book! I just happened to pick it up at the bookstore even before I had even heard of "pro-touring". Wonderful read - I've read through it at least twice, and it eventually led me to this site which is another fantastic resource. My plans have changed drastically as a result of all that I've learned.
Of course, as I mentioned in another thread, this site is very hazardous to your wallet!
TonyHuntimer
03-13-2006, 07:57 AM
Thanks for the info Tony. I hope I haven't caused any problems by posting my comments. I don't usually do that, but I was a bit dejected after my trip.
Hey LS1, it's not a big deal. I have a good idea who you talked with. There are two guys I constantly talk to about their bad attitudes. One of them is a wealth of knowledge, so we put up with it. The other... :box:
What surprised me was that the biggest differential was on the Moog parts I was getting for my steering. I figured on parts like that, it should be easier to get a decent price because they're so commonplace.
I'm glad you brought that up. I have to find a better source for Moog. My current supplier is not cutting me a break.
Anyway, I appreciate you taking the time to respond to my comments. And I *really* thank you for the book! I just happened to pick it up at the bookstore even before I had even heard of "pro-touring". Wonderful read - I've read through it at least twice, and it eventually led me to this site which is another fantastic resource. My plans have changed drastically as a result of all that I've learned.
Of course, as I mentioned in another thread, this site is very hazardous to your wallet!
Thanks for the great comments. I'm glad you like the book. Sorry if it made you spend extra money on your project. :)
EFI69CAM,
DSE is one of the companies I can't compete with on pricing. Kyle has such small margins so he can stay in business that I have to sell at his internet price. Truthfully, if you by it from DSE direct you would not pay our sales tax. You save money for beer. :cheers: The only time it benefits you to buy from us, is when he is out of stock and we have it, or you live in San Jose, we have it in stock, and you don't want to wait 5 days for shipping. :)
Tony Huntimer
RaceHome.com
EFI69Cam
03-13-2006, 08:21 AM
Hey LS1, it's not a big deal. I have a good idea who you talked with. There are two guys I constantly talk to about their bad attitudes. One of them is a wealth of knowledge, so we put up with it. The other... :box:
I'm glad you brought that up. I have to find a better source for Moog. My current supplier is not cutting me a break.
Thanks for the great comments. I'm glad you like the book. Sorry if it made you spend extra money on your project. :)
EFI69CAM,
DSE is one of the companies I can't compete with on pricing. Kyle has such small margins so he can stay in business that I have to sell at his internet price. Truthfully, if you by it from DSE direct you would not pay our sales tax. You save money for beer. :cheers: The only time it benefits you to buy from us, is when he is out of stock and we have it, or you live in San Jose, we have it in stock, and you don't want to wait 5 days for shipping. :)
Tony Huntimer
RaceHome.com
I was only trying to give you guys the opportunity to make some money on the deal. No harm done.
Lowend
03-13-2006, 06:37 PM
I miss my job there...
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