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View Full Version : Martz, Fatman, CA Chassisworks... TOO MANY CHOICES!



Flyboy
09-29-2004, 08:16 PM
Ok, semi-cliff notes version. I'm deploying to Pakistan in January for 4 months, so i'll be coming back with quite a bit of cash saved up and i'll be looking to do front suspension and brakes for the 67. I'm looking at all these companies that make complete aftermarket front subrames for the first gens and i'm left scratching my head (which really is not all that unusual for me :hmm: ). Which one do I choose? I thought I might enlist your guys' opinions since there's a lot more knowledge floating around over here than I have.

The one I have really been looking at is the complete CA Chassisworks subframe on page 603 of the Classic Industries catalog for only $1395. Looks like it would be a really good setup. NO I am not looking for a best-of-the-best $4000 setup. If I was, i'd go with the Wayne Due stuff. :naughty: Instead, i'm just looking for something that will drastically improve the handling/braking of that over-sized toaster oven I have sitting in the garage.

Yes, I have done a couple of searches both in the new forum, and on the old one as well for opinions on the different setups. But apparently I need to go through some sort of remedial search training, because surprisingly, I didn't really get that many results that contained the info I was looking for. :doh:

I suppose something else I should mention is this car WILL be daily driven once it is running, but will see quite a bit of road course and open road racing. I can deal with a little bit of a harsh ride and road noise if it will give me better handling/braking. I'm still young... I have to beat the hell out of myself somehow. :hammer:

Thanks in advance for any input you folks may have, even if it's just directing me to a thread I may have missed. :doh:

Steve N 69 69 69
09-29-2004, 11:39 PM
Classic ind. needs to clearify their descriptions it sounds like. that 1395.00 is for the frame ONLY. you will still need all the rest of the parts from Chassisworks, as only their stuff will fit their frame. look at more like 5500.00 all said and done( brakes,rack,coilovers,A-arms,sway bar,sub cons,steering linkage,motor mounts) and they only have one setup, there is no entry level frame. look at their web site CW (http://www.cachassisworks.com/) its under "camaro clip" on the left.
If I was to do it now.. I'd rebuild my stock frame with the DSE coilover kit, tubular A-arms, huge baer 14's,and maybe look into a rack and pinion setup ( flaming river is coming out with a sweet looking setup soon) for half the money I've spent on the CW frame.
just my 2 cents/5500 bucks worth
good luck in Pakistan, be safe.

Flyboy
09-29-2004, 11:46 PM
Hmmm, damn, good to know. I thought that price for that front clip sounded a little low. They show the complete subframe sitting there, with the same part number listed next to it and show it being only $1395. They SERIOUSLY need to revise that.

Beautiful car you got there BTW. Makes me want to get my LT1/T56 setup done even quicker. :drool:

ProdigyCustoms
09-30-2004, 06:55 AM
#1 Wayne Due
#2 Chris Alston
#3 modified stock
#4 Martz

Ricoch3T
09-30-2004, 12:11 PM
Anyone have any idea what the total is on the wayne due setup? I keep playing with the idea of getting one but have a had time b/c I don't know the total cost. Also what size tire will fit on the front of that thing? 275?

The chassis works frame only is 1395.. The suspension package is 1408, or something close to that. I asked a while back and thats what i was told. It is sort of confusing in the catalogs/online.

Flyboy
09-30-2004, 12:38 PM
Yeah, I was wondering about the Wayne Due cost myself. I am hoping Tyler chimes in here since he's using that stuff on the 50/50. I'll call him up later and bug him about it if he doesn't. :secret:

MoeBawlz
10-03-2004, 05:49 PM
I just got Wayne Dues subframe... the C4 setup though, and just to get all the parts, bare, no work done to them, bare steel frame, etc etc it ran me about $3700... I looked closely at all the companies and im very glad i went with Wayne. He is a great guy to deal with and extreemly helpful. Im not sure what his C5 stuff goes for, that Tyler might be able to help with, if not just give Wayne a call..

Ricoch3T
10-03-2004, 05:54 PM
3700... is that everything you need with or without brakes?

MoeBawlz
10-04-2004, 12:23 PM
I just got the standard C4 brakes... I plan on upgrading later when i have the money to do so. and that is everything you will need for the suspension... including coil overs, C4 parts, and i got a manual rack so i dont know the idfference between that and the power rack in price.

that however is a bare steel frame and un touched C4 parts... you would have to paint of powdercoat the frame and clean up the C4 parts yourself...

streetk14
10-09-2004, 09:24 AM
I'm in the middle of a wayne due subframe conversion for my 68 Camaro. I can tell you what I have into mine. It's about $2400 for the bare subframe & sway bar. I chose to upgrade to a speedway engineering 1 1/4" splined bar for about $300 more. Add a couple hundred for powdercoating and a couple more for freight, and you are over $3000 already. I got my C4 suspension from a vette salvage yard for $500, in good condition. You might be able to find it cheaper, but Wayne seemed to think that I got a deal. I also bought new balljoints, and am going to upgrade to del a lum bushings. I still need to get coilovers, a power rack from AGR, and an aftermarket steering column. I'll probably have over $5000 into it when it's all said and done, but it can be done a lot cheaper. It could probably be done for $3500 if you go about it right (and don't mind using original used parts). But, Wayne is a great guy to deal with, and IMOP, he makes the best stuff out there. Plus, if you are planning to keep your car forever (which I am), I'd rather pay a little more and be happy with the results.
-Andy

Joe_Rocket
10-09-2004, 10:16 PM
Steve N 69 69 69, was it only the cost that you mentioned you'd go with the DSE setup if you had it to do over again? Are you happy with the perfomance of your ChassisWorks setup?

I got my front suspension apart now ( again ), and I'm considering just going with the Speed Tech Upper and lowers with the Guldstrand mod. It's definately cheaper. Also, I am wondering if the handling of a Wayne Due Chassis is that much greater? I noticed Speed Tech has some nice C5 Brake Kits as well.

So, to sum things up, Im' thinking of going with Speed Tech Arms, the QA1 Coilovers with a custom Global West Spring Rate ( maybe 550 - 600 lbs ) and the C5 brake kit for under $2500...

camcojb
10-10-2004, 07:04 AM
#1 Wayne Due
#2 Chris Alston
#3 modified stock
#4 Martz


I would move the modified stock (at least with DSE a-arms, bushings, coil over conversion, and steering box) up to the top with WD as far as handling goes.

Jody

baz67
10-10-2004, 07:24 AM
I agree with Jody. I am glad someone else thinks that. Do not discount a modified stock frame. The only advantage, other than they they look damn cool, that some aftermarket frames have over a mod stock is the ability to get wider tires in the front. That is a big plus though.

I am using the GW uppers and stock lowers. Also, the DSE coilover conversion put into the Gulstrand location, not DSE's and Wilwood 6 piston brakes. I just ordered the Koni's from DSE as well. With all that I have around 3200 and it measured a damn good camber cruve during moc-up. Once it is put back together, I hope by SEMA, I will get the rest of the front susp geometry measurements and see what it looks like at ride height.

I guess the moral is do not discount a well updated stock sub.
Brian

ballistic69
10-10-2004, 11:43 AM
The first problem was with the motor mounts, they my have move when the frame was being welded, but were not recheck for accuracy. They were not a major issue since deciding to move the engine rearward and use C5 engine mounts. The next issue is where the LCA rear bushing connects to the chassis. It is off from one side to the other by 1/2". Wade spoke with Kyle Tucker at Good Guys when they were in the Dallas area recently and Kyle told Wade he has experinced similar issues with Wayne Due chassis. Now I will have to pay Wade to correct the problems, because I am too for along to send it back for correction.

I am NOT bashing Wayne, but he needs to have these issues brought to his attention and work on his Quality Control before having his work go out the door.

Ralph LoGrasso
10-10-2004, 12:08 PM
I would move the modified stock (at least with DSE a-arms, bushings, coil over conversion, and steering box) up to the top with WD as far as handling goes.

Jody

I agree 100% with Jody, and Brian.

Flyboy
10-10-2004, 08:38 PM
Wow, I just got back from a weekend riding quads at the Armagosa Dunes, and didn't expect to find this much more feedback in this thread. :cool: Thanks VERY much to everyone for the added input. Right now, i'm swinging toward going with the DSE modified frame, as I don't really have the uber-$$$ it takes to purchase a WD setup, even as much as i'd love to get it. :doh: But please, anyone else that would like to offer up any more info, i'd be more than happy to listen to what you have to say! :)

Flyboy
10-10-2004, 08:40 PM
Just out of sheer curiosity.... what are your guys' opinions on using a modified stock front subframe with Wayne's rear IRS kit?

spanky the wondermuffin
10-11-2004, 06:23 AM
i went from hotchkis springs/sway bar /bisteins to the dse kit.the hotchkis stuff was fine on the street but suffered from extreme understeer on track.the change to the dse kit was remarkable.my first track day with the new setup was great. at lunch we had a drivers meeting and the instructor said'we are going to move a couple of the faster cars up into a higher group-that red camaro,and the porsche'.one of the best days of my life.i opted for and recommend the koni 30 series shocks.for street only use there will be no gain with any kit over a rebuilt stock front suspension,maybe with guldstrand mod and a quality spring.

TitoJones
10-11-2004, 04:52 PM
I'd place the frame options as follows:

C.A.R.S. full race frame
Wayne Due C5 frame (requires engine setback to clear rack)
DSE mod'd stock frame
Wayne Due C4 frame
Martz
Chassis Works
Stock with Guldstrand

Obviously the first 2 options are mucho $$, but well worth it in the end. It seems to me there are those who have the Wayne Due stuff, and those who wish they had it.
I'd recommend the DSE frame to you Doug, as we can do it here in my shop. We already have the jig and experience, so it will be on track with what you are going for.
I can also see no problems with the DSE/WD IRS combo.
Tyler

Flyboy
10-11-2004, 05:10 PM
Thanks for chiming in Tyler! I was hoping you'd see this and lend your input. Mind if I drop by the shop some time to yack with you (assuming you're still in the old "LVF" shop)? If so, when are you usually there? Besides, I gotta check out the 50/50, if you'd be so gracious. :drool:

TBART70
10-12-2004, 06:28 AM
why is everybody so down on the martz chassis. is the WD better than it because of geometry or something else , i do not know if i want vette susp. i thought it had a limit on the brake choices. i was set on using the martz for my 70 camaro with wilwood 6 piston brakes, but not knowing who's is better makes it hard to pick.

spanky the wondermuffin
10-12-2004, 06:40 AM
better for what?measured how?if you aren't going to roadrace make your decision based on price and what your friends will think is cool.there will be no differance cruising to the kwik-e-mart.

rob07002
10-13-2004, 05:17 AM
Just wondering what your thoughts are on Scott's Hot Rods Clip and Fatman????
Also with the DSE modified stock frame are you talking tube upper with the bushings and coilover kit or something else?

spanky the wondermuffin
10-13-2004, 06:41 AM
yes,tubular dse upper arm,solid bushings upper and lower.dse coilover kit.good kit.good company.

ZZ430
10-13-2004, 07:11 AM
why is everybody so down on the martz chassis.

I like the Martz subframe on my 67 Camaro. No, it's not the best out there now, but in 1999 when I got it, it was a pretty good bargain.

The best thing about it is the rack and pinion, and the weight savings that is difficult to achieve with a stock subframe.

MoeBawlz
10-13-2004, 12:51 PM
Just outta curiosity... those who have a DSE modded stock frame. how much did it cost you guys to have a shop put on the coil over kit? if you dont mind me asking.

34X2Camaro
10-13-2004, 08:36 PM
I like the Martz subframe on my 67 Camaro. No, it's not the best out there now, but in 1999 when I got it, it was a pretty good bargain.

The best thing about it is the rack and pinion, and the weight savings that is difficult to achieve with a stock subframe.
Does anyone know if all the aftermarket subframes are similar in weight. How much lighter is an aftermarket than the stock subframe? Martz is going on my car in a couple of weeks.

spanky the wondermuffin
10-14-2004, 06:57 AM
depends on how much of the job you need done.the engine must be removed,but it is better to remove the whole sub.if you bring your subframe to someone to have the slots cut and the welding done i'd say 2-300.if you drive your car in and want to drive it home maybe 2 grand.you could call dse for a quote just to give you a figure to shop aroung your area.many people on this site(me included)can do this job for you at a resonable price.

iskone
10-14-2004, 09:14 AM
Just how much wider of a tire cxan you get with Wayne's setup versus the DSE coils and moded frame?

Flyboy
10-14-2004, 10:16 AM
if you bring your subframe to someone to have the slots cut and the welding done i'd say 2-300.

That's a very accurate estimate as I just talked to Tyler the other day (since he has a DSE jig to do the mounts already) about doing mine if I go the DSE route and that's right about what he quoted me.

Joe_Rocket
10-14-2004, 12:47 PM
I am wondering if there is really any significant performance difference in the DSE setup vs ST or GW with the Guldstrand mod as in my setup listed below. I am guessing they increase the caster similar to the GW and ST arms, and change the camber curve similar to Gulstrand's mod. So what other difference is there? Do they use different length A-arms and alter the distance between the left and right upper A-arm mounting locations?

I opted for the Speed-Tech package and Guldstrand mod. I just ordered:

Speed-Tech Upper A's
Speed-Tech Lower A's
QA1 Coil overs
Speed-Tech Tubular Tie Rod Sleeves

Total cost was $1328.24

If you wish stiffer coils than QA1 offers, I priced them at $169/pair from GW.

For whoever asked about tires, I bolted up a 245/50-16 on a stock 4th gen Z28 wheel usinging a 1.25" adapter. With springs removed, I lifted lower A's to the the bump stops and turned left and right. I'll have to limit the turning radius a little to prevent rubbing the frame, but the ST lower A's have an adjustable stop for that. Also, the tire just contacts the outer edge of the wheel well. Though, I have been running the old Herb Adams 1" body drop subframe connectors, so if I swap to a half inch body drop sub connectors from GW or DSE, I think that'll give me the clearance I need. I like to drive on the street, so I definately want to retain the wheel wells.

I'll post my comments on how it drives once installed if anyone's interested.

F70t/a
10-14-2004, 01:39 PM
I'd place the frame options as follows:

C.A.R.S. full race frame
Wayne Due C5 frame (requires engine setback to clear rack)
DSE mod'd stock frame
Wayne Due C4 frame
Martz
Chassis Works
Stock with Guldstrand

Obviously the first 2 options are mucho $$, but well worth it in the end. It seems to me there are those who have the Wayne Due stuff, and those who wish they had it.
I'd recommend the DSE frame to you Doug, as we can do it here in my shop. We already have the jig and experience, so it will be on track with what you are going for.
I can also see no problems with the DSE/WD IRS combo.
Tyler



Is there a site for C.A.R.S. full race frame?

TitoJones
10-16-2004, 04:12 PM
See this thread: http://66.70.234.198/forum/showthread.php?t=866

I think it is

http://www.campbellautorestoration.com/



Tyler

FastFirstGen
10-05-2005, 06:25 PM
is it better to use dse uppers with stock lowers or dse lowers and uppers???? i see a lot of guys sayin dse uppers and stock lowers so i was wondering

rickk
10-05-2005, 06:37 PM
how many people have custom chassis in there camaros . let me no
thanks rick kirkindall i have martz in my camaro both ends ,:poke:

Randyn
10-06-2005, 06:29 AM
Tyler can you comment on the 21st C5 set up. I noticed that nobody seems to have mentioned them. I asked a similar question and somebody recomended the 21st as a option seems to be the hot setup.


Thanks
Randy

TitoJones
10-06-2005, 10:00 AM
The 21st Century frame is pretty sweet. They are one of the rare guys who actually put ecentric bolts in the frame to give alignment adjustments.
They post and sponsor on Lateral-G.net. Very nice guys, and amazing products/vehicles on their site. I belive Payton King has ridden in one of the shop's 69 Camaros that has theframe installed, and was so impress by it, that he got one for his own car.

Tyler

kp.touring
10-06-2005, 06:15 PM
Tyler and company,
The C.A.R. webs site should/will be fully up very soon. We'll get rid of the temp home page.
The new site will show our front sub and our rear section [which is a Trans Am style 3 link]
Kevin
C.A.R.

TitoJones
10-06-2005, 07:28 PM
Nice!! Good to see you on Pro-Touring Kevin. We need to hook up @ SEMA (if you are going) I have some pretty good stories about a client we both shared.

Tyler

David Pozzi
10-06-2005, 07:53 PM
FIRST GEN CAMARO SUBFRAME WEIGHT additon list
Bare sub 110
knuckle assys (stock single piston disc) 92
springs 22
A arms - upper 20
A arms - lower 22
Shocks 6
Ctr link and tie rods 17
Trans Crossmember 10
Sub total 299

PS box, hoses, pump, pitman 44
TOTAL 343
=============================================
FIRST GEN CAMARO SUBFRAME WEIGHT additon list
Bare sub 110
knuckle assys (stock single piston disc) 92
springs 22
A arms - upper 20
A arms - lower 22
Shocks 6
Ctr link idler and tie rods 17
Trans Crossmember 10
Sub total 299

man steering box with pitman 16.5
TOTAL 315.5

subframe post
https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3379&page=3&pp=20&highlight=subframe+weight

TBART70
10-11-2005, 04:10 PM
rick how is the martz chassis holding up, bought the martz front chassis and added alot of bracing to it, and will probably lower the engine mounts, won't be in the car or driving it for at least two years hope it is all worth it in the end. installed art morrison tri-4bar last year.

Steve N 69 69 69
10-12-2005, 11:45 PM
crap, I wish I weighed my CW frame before I installed it. anyone have one loose they can weigh?? just curious.

Steve1968LS2
10-13-2005, 08:03 AM
#1 Wayne Due/21st Century Streetmachine
#2 Chris Alston
#3 modified stock
#4 Martz
#5 Heits

I fixed your list ;)

I have been very impressed with what I have learned about 21st Century's subframe. It has the ability to be adjusted for instant center and the design looks very good.

So now there are even more choices

Also, when you say Wayne Due do you mean the C5, C4 or Morrison subframe?

To be honest I am a huge fan of modified stock subframes..

Ummgawa
10-14-2005, 08:31 PM
I would move the modified stock (at least with DSE a-arms, bushings, coil over conversion, and steering box) up to the top with WD as far as handling goes.

Jodyhttps://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2005/10/hallparts2-1.jpg

Thanks Jody...

69 Red 540
10-22-2005, 06:33 PM
is it better to use dse uppers with stock lowers or dse lowers and uppers???? i see a lot of guys sayin dse uppers and stock lowers so i was wondering

I'm curious about this as well.

Bryan

yody
10-22-2005, 07:10 PM
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2005/10/hallparts2-1.jpg

Thanks Jody...
whats up with the swaybar mount on that thing?

TitoJones
10-22-2005, 07:37 PM
whats up with the swaybar mount on that thing?

That is the all new BRP instant debris catcher. The damn sway bar hangs below the center crossmember, and the 'mounts' they sell to weld on under the frame rails are so weak, that the ones I had were bent before we even unpacked them from the box.

Tyler

yody
10-22-2005, 07:49 PM
That is the all new BRP instant debris catcher. The damn sway bar hangs below the center crossmember, and the 'mounts' they sell to weld on under the frame rails are so weak, that the ones I had were bent before we even unpacked them from the box.

Tyler
LOL yeah it looked like it to me also, but you know I'm boring now, so...........

Damn True
10-22-2005, 09:06 PM
What's with the relief cut for the steering shaft? Not much left of the crossmember eh?

ProdigyCustoms
10-22-2005, 11:37 PM
[QUOTE=TBART70]why is everybody so down on the martz chassis. QUOTE]

I have instaled Chris Alston, Wayne Due, martz and modified stockers. The Martz chassis is very lightweight 2 X 3 tubing, and flexs quite a bit. It also used Mustang 2 suspension. Great for a drag car but............. The Alston is a well built strong and lightweight piece, but maybe better suited for street / race / pro street straight liners. I have one here for my street racer, I want to lose the weight off the nose and improve the manual steering. Wayne's stuff is a work of art, strong and still light for what it is. I would like to try a 21st century, maybe next project.

rob07002
10-24-2005, 12:59 PM
Frank How can the Martz frame be more flexible then the CW frame with the added bracing shown on the Road Race and Wide Track subs on the site. I would think just the opp. Does the CW or Martz flex more then a stock sub?

http://www.martzchassis.net/page1.htm

Ummgawa
10-26-2005, 04:09 PM
I moved the sway bar to the front and welded a piece over the cut out for the rack and replaced the upper control arms with Global Wests. The DSE coil over conversion was a pain to install but works well.I gusseted alll the corners so flex is minimal on "that Thing" The rear mount WAS for an LS motor. My twin turbo set up caused me to change my direction on motor choices.

Yody please post pix of your suspension, maybe we can all get some pointers from your build.

Tito your car is wicked, will it be at SEMA?

Tennessee Auto
11-16-2005, 08:18 PM
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2005/10/hallparts2-1.jpg

Thanks Jody...

I hate to bring up a old thread, whos subframe is this? I know its been about a year or so since it uses our old 93-02 sway bar mounts on the frame. I would like to see more pics of it with the engine mounted, if anyone has them.

Thanks Scott

73-TYPE-LT-LS1
11-17-2005, 04:43 PM
Umm, whats up with the steering shaft to power rack. It looks like it has a 30* or more angle. Can't feel right turning or be good on the input shaft for the rack..

Hope it's just a funny picture angle.

clinthart
12-07-2005, 04:44 AM
I agree with Jody. I am glad someone else thinks that. Do not discount a modified stock frame. The only advantage, other than they they look damn cool, that some aftermarket frames have over a mod stock is the ability to get wider tires in the front. That is a big plus though.

I am using the GW uppers and stock lowers. Also, the DSE coilover conversion put into the Gulstrand location, not DSE's and Wilwood 6 piston brakes. I just ordered the Koni's from DSE as well. With all that I have around 3200 and it measured a damn good camber cruve during moc-up. Once it is put back together, I hope by SEMA, I will get the rest of the front susp geometry measurements and see what it looks like at ride height.

I guess the moral is do not discount a well updated stock sub.
Brian

There is another benefit to not using the stock subframe... and that is typically weight. I got the Martz chassis, and I shaved about 200lbs off the nose of the car. Now, I am not recommending the Martz chassis because it is not DOT approved, and Gary is not a nice person to work with. I made the mistake of getting this, and I am not paying the price of it. I would put Fatman chassis up there with WD too. That chassis is DOT approved, it is lighter than stock, comes with all the modern stuff, and costs about $4000 for the turn key unit. I have about $4100 in my Martz front end. That includes everything you need to drive with. The ChassisWorks cost more. The quote in the mag is simply the chassis. Call them and they will tell you a turn-key unit costs over $4500 + shipping.

The problem with modifying your stock chassis is you really can't put in all the stuff these after market chassis have on them for the same price. Rack and pinion, tubular control arms, coil overs, disk brakes, etc. $1000 for the rack conversion, $600 a piece for tubular control arms, DSE kit is I don't know how much, and then the coil over shocks... ouch. :)

But make Martz your very last option. You don't want to have to deal with him.

ProdigyCustoms
12-07-2005, 05:23 AM
Frank How can the Martz frame be more flexible then the CW frame with the added bracing shown on the Road Race and Wide Track subs on the site. I would think just the opp. Does the CW or Martz flex more then a stock sub?

http://www.martzchassis.net/page1.htm

Sorry Rob, have not been following this post. The CW frame is pretty strong using a cleaverly design fabricated rail design that gives it girth where it needs it. The Martz is just 2 X 3 and flexs badly at the S in the frame. We put stands under the front of the subframe and the rear where the 3 member would be. And bounced on the door jams, it was down right frightening how bad it flexed! And keep in mind this car is conceted and tied to the rockers every 12". Martz suggested we us the front support bars, but I could not get a good answer when I asked would that not put all the stress on the door pins and latch in a convertible? Think about it, the front of the support wiggles, where does it transfer to? The core support, which transfers to? The door hinges and latch on ragtops.

So we added some pie cuts to try and stiffen that weak area, I believe it helped some, but I won't use it again.

rob07002
12-07-2005, 07:22 AM
Sorry Rob, have not been following this post. The CW frame is pretty strong using a cleaverly design fabricated rail design that gives it girth where it needs it. The Martz is just 2 X 3 and flexs badly at the S in the frame. We put stands under the front of the subframe and the rear where the 3 member would be. And bounced on the door jams, it was down right frightening how bad it flexed! And keep in mind this car is conceted and tied to the rockers every 12". Martz suggested we us the front support bars, but I could not get a good answer when I asked would that not put all the stress on the door pins and latch in a convertible? Think about it, the front of the support wiggles, where does it transfer to? The core support, which transfers to? The door hinges and latch on ragtops.

So we added some pie cuts to try and stiffen that weak area, I believe it helped some, but I won't use it again.
Thanks for getting back to on this. I'm really torn by which sub to get when I'm ready. By looking at the Martz on the sites one would thinks its plenty stiff, but experience speaks for itself.... With cost being an issue, I'll probably end up with the alston piece....

ProdigyCustoms
12-07-2005, 08:12 AM
Thanks for getting back to on this. I'm really torn by which sub to get when I'm ready. By looking at the Martz on the sites one would thinks its plenty stiff, but experience speaks for itself.... With cost being an issue, I'll probably end up with the alston piece....

I think the Alston is a nice unit, but I would sure rather see you get creative and find some used Corvette stuff and do a Wayne Due. If not, no one will look down on you the the CW frame.

MarkM66
12-07-2005, 08:53 AM
I hate to bring up a old thread, whos subframe is this? I know its been about a year or so since it uses our old 93-02 sway bar mounts on the frame. I would like to see more pics of it with the engine mounted, if anyone has them.

Thanks Scott

Looks like a stock subframe with a rack conversion. I can't think of the place that offers this rack conversion though. I think it's like BRP Hotrods or something.

Mean 69
12-07-2005, 08:58 AM
If a frame is not good enough to handle bending moments like Frank described, it will be downright diabolical in terms of handling torsional (twist) forces. I still get frustrated when folks think that the aftermarket frames are so much stronger than the factory frames, it would be great to see a real world test on both types, but the big claims just don't add up. Further, the weight issue with the allegation that the aftermarket stuff is so much lighter while at the same time being oodles stronger, the physics just doesn't allow that to happen. They do look nicer, but from a value standpoint, in terms of strength/weight/performance to $$$ ratio, well, we all have our own opinions I guess.

Not trying to start anything,
M

TitoJones
12-07-2005, 01:20 PM
There is another benefit to not using the stock subframe... and that is typically weight. I got the Martz chassis, and I shaved about 200lbs off the nose of the car. Now,

The problem with modifying your stock chassis is you really can't put in all the stuff these after market chassis have on them for the same price. Rack and pinion, tubular control arms, coil overs, disk brakes, etc. $1000 for the rack conversion, $600 a piece for tubular control arms, DSE kit is I don't know how much, and then the coil over shocks... ouch.

You are on a roll here. Do you have the weight of the stock frame you removed? What is the weight of the Marts frame that replaced it? You really think you lost over 200 lbs with that frame? I don't think it could have been much more than 90-110 lbs, but I'm a skeptic.

The second part of your statement is also a bit misleading. You need to realize that the parts you just mentioned are not needed to out handle a Martz or Fatman clip. You don't need tubular control arms to get the job done, and rack and pinion is such a waste of money with the new 670 power steering boxes on the market today. I'd be willing to bet you wouldn't be able to tell that we have a steering box in one of our stock frames, since it feels and responds exactly like a R&P. Coil over shocks also are not a requirement. Take a long look at CarlC's website to see how to make a landrum spring adjuster act like a coil over.
I'll just say that we could outfit a stock frame with no tubular control arms, no rack and pinion, and no coil over shocks, and out handle a Martz/Fatman frame, for a fraction of the price.

Tyler

rob07002
12-08-2005, 08:04 PM
I think the Alston is a nice unit, but I would sure rather see you get creative and find some used Corvette stuff and do a Wayne Due. If not, no one will look down on you the the CW frame.
To be frank, Frank I think a WD is probably overkill for what I'll be using the car for. Its mostly going to be street driven and won't be pushed that hard on a road course. I just want a new piece that will save alittle weight, and handle better then stock, bone stock. BTW your machinist Kevin is awsome, very nice guy and he is making a killer piece for me, thanks for the reference.

ProdigyCustoms
12-09-2005, 04:23 AM
You are on a roll here. Do you have the weight of the stock frame you removed? What is the weight of the Marts frame that replaced it? You really think you lost over 200 lbs with that frame? I don't think it could have been much more than 90-110 lbs, but I'm a skeptic.

Tyler

Dude, he might have lost close to 200lbs. It's pretty damn light! Flexible as hell, but pretty damn light. Look at it, there is nothing there.

67SSDan
12-23-2005, 02:46 PM
Man, I'm glad I found this thread! I was having the same quandry... but was convinced I needed to buy the Martz chassis.

So I've been reading in several difference places about this Gulstrand thing, and I've yet to hear someone actually say what it is or how you do it. I'm guessing there is a link somewhere?

Also, what is it about the WD subframe that makes it so hot? I've lusted after those for a long time, even back when Rasmussen started selling them who knows how long ago... but have never actually talked to someone who had installed one.

Do you guys know of anyone in the Tennessee area that can do these suspension mods you all are talking about to the stock frame?

jmartz
06-02-2007, 12:15 PM
Frank,

I was wondering if you could please provide me detailed information by email on the flex problem you had with our frame. Please email me at mail@martzchassis.net I'd like to take care of this problem for future customers even if it's way too late to help you. I would also like to apoligize for Dad not addressing the situation properly and want you to know I am taking this very, very seriously. Any information you can provide for me will be beneficial. Let's call it a constructive criticism. If you have photos, illustrations, drawings, anything to help us take care of this.

If ANYONE ELSE has issues PLEASE email me... Andy and I are doing our best to handle things correctly since Dad retired... it's a bit crazy here right now, but be patient with us and we'll help you as much as possible.

And yes, we can shave 200 lbs off. The drag racers love us. lol.

thanks,
Jeri

Young Gun
06-03-2007, 05:23 AM
I have been trying to find an aswer to this very problem, im lucky i found this thread... I do have one question though, I have stumbled across a full chassis, and i was curious if anybody has used a Vennom pro touring chassis on one of their cars? Any insight into the full chassis idea is appreciated.

MonzaRacer
06-04-2007, 07:17 PM
Cant say much for the other setups BUT i just finished setting up a fellas Camro with the Marts sub and as for it flexing I couldnt see as much as most stress BUT tthen the car was completely assembled and the fella wanted it to go on the Power Tour so I got my boss to let me set the front end up and I for one will say it is a very nice piece. As for being patterned after a Mustang II, if so that is one redsigned MII.
We got herset up and went out for some fast blasts and it handled great. But then of course I believe that the Air ride Technologies suspension helped a lot.
i have set up hundreds of SCCA ACR Neons and many other cars since starting that so many years ago and I was very impressed with the construction and even with a tall deck BBC all iron it seemed to be a very nice piece.
Lee Abel

jmartz
06-05-2007, 06:23 AM
Thanks for the good feedback!

David Pozzi
06-10-2007, 07:44 PM
Jeri,
I'm going to avoid any suspension lingo to make this understandable to more readers.

A first gen subframe is near pathetic in torsion, so is a second gen sub. The fenders contribute nearly as much as the subframe to torsional rigidity.

I read in Autoweek about the Aston Martin Vantage, it has something like 14,000 foot lbs per degree torsional rigidity. A first Gen Camaro is aprox 4000. Remove the front fenders and it's 2000, - Terrible. Add to that the factory rubber subframe to unibody mounts, and it's a wonder they went around corners at all! But remember, this sub was designed for a 4.5" wide tire and cornering G's of .6


It was stated a Martz road race subframe is 200 lbs lighter, and the frame rails are smaller. I also see all the first gen Martz subs have large openings cut out just above the lower A arm bolts, also the main crossmember looks to be very open and not boxed in. It tells me that the designer was not concerned with torsional rigidity, - just light weight. It's quite likely your subframe has less torsional rigidity than a stock sub. While it may drive nicer on the street than a totally stock subframe, Pro-Touring is all about horsepower, sticky wide tires and a chassis/suspension that can make it all work together. A flexing subframe is an uncontrolled spring between you and the road. What you tell the car to do through the steering wheel and what it tells you through the seat of your pants goes through the chassis. It's the foundation of a responsive handling car.

A Camaro front suspension usually handles 72 to 74 percent of roll torque created when cornering, but the front percent of total mass is less than that, it's 53% to 56%. When cornering the main mass of the car is twisting the front subframe by almost 20% of the total roll load. this twist is going through the subframe. In other words, when cornering hard 20% of the main mass of the unibody, all from firewall to the rear, - is trying to twist the subframe, because the subframe is doing more than it's share of resisting roll.

I want to see a fully boxed crossmember, some triangulating braces, and frame rails that are large enough to resist twisting. Adding braces that cross in an X fasion from the firewall down would help more than you can imagine, but finding room for them is a challenge.

Drag racing does not require as much torsional rigidity since they use skinny front tires. I suggest you look into the importance of torsional rigidity and it's effect on handling. Also look at the Detroit Speed subframe with it's hydroformed frame rails, or the Morrison sub. These are two good examples of the strength needed to form a good foundation for a car that will be driven hard on the street, autocrosed or open tracked.

Buy this book and read about how to test for torsional rigidity.
http://www.amazon.com/Chassis-Engineering-HP1055-Herb-Adams/dp/1557880557

I commend you for asking questions and not getting defensive. It gives me hope that you have what it takes to improve your product so it will better suit your customers needs. They don't know the difference it can make, the car will go where it's pointed more responsively and stay on track better.

It's interesting to note that my Lola Vintage racer has about 6000 ft lbs per degree torsional rigidity.

David

jmartz
06-12-2007, 07:25 AM
I will be sure to pass this on to Andy. Thank you for taking the time to mention your concerns.

Though I cannot get technical, I do know that the original design of our frame came from my father's dirt track racing days. Some of the design also came from his NASCAR experience. This is extremely general, I know, but further info will be needed from Andy before I can post anymore.

Also, the frames only lose that 200lb with lightweight disc brakes. The unit with standard GM brakes only loses approx. 150 lbs.

thanks.
Jeri

ProdigyCustoms
06-12-2007, 02:54 PM
Sorry for the delayed answer Jeri. I was not following this post. Here is a link to the build we did using your chassis.

http://prodigycustoms.com/petes-camaro.asp

You can see in the pictures the lengths we went to try to firm it up welding in frame connectors, hard moubting it to the body, the pie cuts under the riser area, the braces along the rocker. Still when the dust settled and the car on jack stands. It was still very bouncy.

I am no engineer, but feel pretty confident the use of 2 X 4, or even 2 X 5 rails would help tremendously. Again, I am not engineer, but I know bouncy when I see it. And I know other frames we have used are not as flexy. David is much more of a suspension scientist then I, and his suggestions to beef up the supports, particularly in the crossmember area, seem quite logical also.

As for dad not helping me. It may have been a bad day, but it seemed like I was bothering him and by the end of the conversation I still did not under stand how using the firewall braces would help with a convertible. In the end I made the executive decision to not use the firewall braces in fear it would damage my paint job if the doors were forced into the quarter panels, or the fenders jambed into the doors on wicked bumps.

Like David, I appreciate your desire to make things stronger. I believe it could only benefit you.

David Pozzi
06-12-2007, 10:16 PM
A circle track car would have a roll cage and the cage would tie in to the front suspension with braces, lots of braces on a good chassis.

Go find an old shoe box, the kind with the separate lid, with lid off grab each end and twist the box, then put on the lid and twist, - quite a difference. The crossmember underneath the engine is very important to rigidity, also the frame rail size and thickness. For a drag car you want light weight and you just go straight, very little twist load on the suspension, but what we need is strength for good handling.
David

jmartz
06-15-2007, 09:30 AM
Thanks for posting Frank, I'll let Andy know.

TBART70
06-15-2007, 11:44 AM
now you care about the issues I stated, where's my compensation.:pat:

jmartz
06-18-2007, 05:49 AM
So far on our in house fittings on Chevy II's and all Camaro's we offer, we are only experiencing less than 1/8" inch flex. This is why we are so concerned. We are simply not seeing the flex issue here in our shop. That is why I've been asking for info on this. Our guys are simply stumped. We are just not seeing it here.