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RobM
11-13-2004, 10:08 PM
well its time to get a gas tank for the car. my choices are stock replacement every thing or i could go the fuel cell rought. has any one done a NASCAR style fuel set up on this board and had it fill from the stock location? would it really be worth it to do a cell if i dont really need it? or should i just get it over with using a stock replacment system? also whats a good fuel line to use can i use all flexable lines?

Matt@RFR
11-13-2004, 10:31 PM
What are you going to be using the car for? If you'll be cornering/launching hard, a fuel cell that's properly baffled will help big time in controlling fuel slosh. Fuel slosh is bad for two reasons:

-Unexpected, sudden change in weight bias

-Can possibly uncover the fuel pick-up and, if bad enough, will lean the motor out and probably make it stumble or die. (maybe even hole a piston if it's a rowdy enough motor)

A properly designed and built fuel cell will also be safer in a crash, especially when surrounded by a frame like in your NASCAR reference.

Your stock tank will be fine if you're just cruising the streets, and can be made marginally better by adding a sump.

dennis68
11-13-2004, 10:49 PM
Fuelsafe!!! Pretty big money but it is the only way to ensure no matter what you do with the car the fuel system will pass tech. HTH put a cell in a 68 Camaro and had the fill go to the stock location, looked good.

RobM
11-13-2004, 11:00 PM
i was actualy looking at a cell made by JAZ it is encased in metal much like a fuel safe cell. does any body know any thing about these cells? they are a good deal cheeper

dennis68
11-14-2004, 09:20 AM
Much cheaper but won't get signed off in most venues.

gs470
02-27-2005, 08:08 PM
The original tank in my LeMans is leaking, so it's time to replace it. This is mainly a street car, but I hope to do some recreational road racing and drag racing, too, so I'm wondering what I should do. Sumped tank? Fuel cell? :hmm:

In case it matters, I'm running a Mallory 140 pump. Thanks for the help.

awr68
03-01-2005, 05:01 PM
Personally I'm a big fan of saving trunk space...so I vote for a sumped tank...perhaps one built by Matt or jp??

gs470
03-02-2005, 05:08 AM
Thanks for the response, Anthony. I don't want to lose my trunk, either, so a trunk-mounted cell wasn't likely to happen, but I was curious to see what recommendations I'd get and what people are using.

I don't know the forum members very well here, so I don't know who Matt or jp are. Are there websites or e-mail addresses I can use to contact them?

Rick Dorion
03-02-2005, 05:49 AM
I'm not at this point yet but I'm leaning toward a fuel cell for safety reasons. It would seem to me that a sumped tank might be vulnerable(?)

MarkM66
03-02-2005, 08:17 AM
What about a custom made tank that looks close to stock in shape, has extra baffles near the pick-up area and have the fuel line exit the front of the tank? You could have the fuel line actual extend into that tank some, to get fuel towards the rear of the tank, and have baffles to try to keep fuel near this location. I'm just not a fan of those low rear sumps, with the lines and fitting all exposed. For looks reasons and I don't think they're a very good ideal for safety. If you get rear ended, breaking one of those fittings would be quite easy.

sanddan
03-02-2005, 10:02 AM
I picked up a new tank off e-bay and plan on adding a sump of my own design. I should be into this tank for less than $90 not including my labor. If you have the bucks, by all means go with a custom SS tank but the cost is north of $1000! A little too rich for my blood. If you are adding EFI the custom tank starts looking better as you can have an in tank pump. Just my $.02 worth.
Dan

1976SR71
03-02-2005, 11:45 AM
Forget about the lost trunk space with a trunk mounted cell....
What about the raised CG? A full fuel tank has alot of weight...

Ralph LoGrasso
03-02-2005, 02:06 PM
gs470,

I'm going to be running a sumped/baffled fuel tank built by Matt.
www.rfrcustomfab.com is Matt's site.

gs470
03-02-2005, 07:04 PM
Woah! A custom tank with all the bells and whistles would be a great solution, but I'm with sanddan, $1000+ is a little steep for me.

While I also have some concerns with the weld on sump kits, too, but I think it might be the best solution for me right now. I mocked one up out of cardboard and it really doesn't hang down as far as I thought it would originally and I should be able to tuck the fuel line out of the way fairly well. I can always sell the sumped tank for a few bucks if I decide to upgrade to a custom tank some time down the road.

Thanks for feedback!

jeffandre
03-02-2005, 10:24 PM
You probably should do the sumped tank for now and then think about dropping an ATL or Fuel Safe cell into the trunk if you plan on increasing your track time. I built a metal box that is welded to the trunk floor and allows my aluminum cell to hang about 8"+ below the trunk bottom, only sticking up 3" into the trunk. I lost some space in the trunk but have a 20-gallon baffled and foam-filled cell enclosed in a metal box for a bit more safety. If the car was more of a race car and less street I would go with ATL, Fuel Safe, or someone like that for safety reasons (I like the idea of a rubber bladder in a steel container).

awr68
03-02-2005, 10:53 PM
Woops sorry for the delay, I've been camped out in the GP forum again!! :)

Matt = http://www.rfrcustomfab.com/

jp (John Parsons) = http://www.iimuchfabrication.com/


Both are more than capable of building you what you are looking for...


OH YEAH...THATS 1000 POSTS FOR ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :cheers:

CamaroAJ
03-20-2005, 06:58 PM
its getting close to time to be looking around for a fuel cell, the car will be about 98% street car with some autocross and drag racing. but since i do plan on racing it am i going to need a fuel cell with baffels in it to keep the fuel near the pick up :hmm: ? i haven't really found much on this subject so if anyone has any info on this thanks in advance.

scogin918
03-21-2005, 08:51 AM
look up Fuel Safe.

David Pozzi
03-21-2005, 08:46 PM
The alternative is to keep your tank and add a "make up tank". Pump fuel to this tank and add a small return line from the top of the make up tank back to the fuel tank.

The make up tank will allways be full and you can pump from that to the engine.
David

CamaroAJ
03-22-2005, 09:56 AM
thats a great idea, how big of tank are we talking? something like 6x6x6?

David Pozzi
03-23-2005, 09:22 AM
If it held a half gallon, that would be great. Somewhere between three pints and a half gallon.

A 4" dia round tube as tall as you can make it is best, or around 10" to 12" tall, I"d go to 3" dia before making it shorter height, - you want enough height so the fuel is all at the bottom and air can rise to the top. One pump is dedicated to keeping it full with excess vented back to the tank so there is no pressure buildup.

An internal pump could be put inside the makup tank or use an external pump to pump to the engine.

I used one on my Lola T-70 and it worked perfectly but later installed a square tank the size of a half gallon milk carton inside my fuel cell with trap doors. It eliminated the external tank and one pump. But I allready had the fuel cell.

CamaroAJ
03-23-2005, 09:40 AM
well i don't have a cell yet but like the fuel safe cell, am i going to need to use 2 the same pump that i feed the engine with? the only reason i ask is i am using a twin turbo small block and i fear the fuel flow demand will suck the tank dry before it can be refilled if i use a smaller pump. could i use a regular high volume pump to feed the tank and use the return line into the small tank? then the over flow line back to the fuel cell. it sounds good on paper but if it works is different.

awr68
03-23-2005, 10:52 AM
I don't kow what you budgit is (cells can be quite affordable) but a 'sure thing' is to have Matt, RFR (http://www.rfrcustomfab.com/) ,build you a custom, baffeled, replacement tank that fit's under the car in the stock location...that way you don't loose your trunk to a cell and all your issues are handled at the same time. He can build whatever you want and set it up for either an internal or external pump and have all the an fittings welded and ready to plumb!!

BTW, He's building mine, so I'm not selling you on anything I wouldn't do!! :)

CamaroAJ
03-23-2005, 12:11 PM
i have been thinking about having him build me one, i can't use a stock location due to the way i'm going to run my exaust. a sunk in fuel cell will work though so that the way i need to go. i'll prolly PM him when i get home tonight.

CamaroAJ
04-27-2005, 09:09 AM
are you running a fuel level sender?

Mean 69
04-27-2005, 11:13 AM
Yep. But, there were no instructions with the darned thing. I hooked it up as I "thought" I should have, meaning 12V, ground, and sender, but the gauge read full all the time (or might have been empty, can't recall). In the process of doing something else to the car the other day, I disconnected the 12V, and the gauge read 1/4 tank. I am guessing it doesn't need 12V, but I screwed up the pot settings so bad that I will have to fill the car, and empty it to set the levels correctly.

Sound familiar?
Mark

Matt@RFR
04-27-2005, 11:34 AM
http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/fsafe9a.htm

They do need 12V. When you buy them seperately, they come with instructions. Simple stuff really:

Install fuel cell and add a couple gallons of gas (or however much you want left when the gauge reads empty), then set the "empty" pot until your gauge reads empty.

Fill fuel cell fully, then adjust "full" pot until gauge reads full.

These are really neat senders (can be cut to length for oddball tanks like the one pictured), but are not cheap. Plus, no moving parts so you can run them in bladders and in conjunction with fuel cell foam.

CamaroAJ
04-27-2005, 01:36 PM
i forgot to ask how many gal. tank was everyone running?

Matt@RFR
04-27-2005, 01:58 PM
How far do you want to go? :)

CamaroAJ
04-27-2005, 06:53 PM
i was thinking everyother exit :lmao: , well i was looking at either the 18 gal. or 22 gal. tank. also when you use fuel safe's level sending unit i'm using auto meters gauges doesn that matter?

Matt@RFR
04-27-2005, 07:45 PM
Personally, for a streetable car, I'd go as big as possible. It's the same amount of money to fill, just in bigger (but further spaced) chunks.

Full, the 22 gallon tank will only weigh roughly 25lbs more than the 18 gallon...not enough to worry about, all other things being equal.

The Fuel Safe sender comes in the 0-90 ohm flavor unless you specify otherwise, and I'm not sure what other choices they have.

Doesn't matter what brand gauge you have (even stock), as long as the ohm range is correct. If you bought a gauge for a GM car, you have the 0-90 ohm gauge.

dennis68
04-27-2005, 08:44 PM
Fuel safe builds a real nice 32 gallon

Mean 69
05-02-2005, 08:23 AM
I run a 22 in my car, in trunk-first gen Camaro. I made it such that about three inches, maybe a little more, are above the nominal trunk pan, the rest is underneath the car. I think it looks pretty cool too. You need to vent the tank out of the passenger area of the car, and also will need to run a full firewall to sperate the trunk from the interior in case the worst happens.

So, I was playing with mine again last night (sending unit). I definitely works without the 12V lead, but I can't get it to adjust to empty, the lowest it goes is about 1/4 tank or so. Ironic too, because the gauge hadn't been working, and it is a 22 gallon tank, I always kind of assumed I still had "enough" gas. I ran out last night, luckily in the shop though!

Mark

Matt@RFR
05-02-2005, 02:43 PM
That's strange, Mark. I wonder why they even put the "12V+" terminal on the sender if it's not needed??? Weird.

I'm sure you have, but I have to ask; Have you made sure that your sender is the correct length for your tank (bladder)?

Mean 69
05-02-2005, 05:00 PM
I'm sure you have, but I have to ask; Have you made sure that your sender is the correct length for your tank (bladder)?

Oh, come on now, Matt. You know me, of COURSE I haven't! I expected the darned part to come from the supplier correct!

Kidding aside, I hadn't even considered that, but it would seem to me that if it were too short, the tank would read "empty" earlier rather than later (as is in my case). Honest though, the darned sender is the least of my problems, I realized that my wonderful $120 Optima battery is dead?!?! I'll sort the sender out later, but for crystal clarification, it doesn't work at all with 12V connected (were you using the stock gauge in your applications, or a remote one???).

M

CamaroAJ
05-02-2005, 05:27 PM
i have to ask since i can find no clean answer, is the adjusters on the sending unit itself? also Mean 69 do you have any pics of it in the car? i was thinking about doing it something like that depending on how much it hangs below the floor. i ordered the 22 gal tank 34 x 17 1/2 x 9 1/2 with the standard 6x10 fill plate, i'll change it to the correct one when i figure out what i need but untill then i can get the cell mounted.

Matt@RFR
05-02-2005, 06:25 PM
...if it were too short, the tank would read "empty" earlier rather than later...

Ahh yes, so true. Sorry dude, been a loooong day. :)


...$120 Optima battery is dead?!?!

What'd you do to it? :bicycle:


I have to ask since I can find no clean answer, are the adjusters on the sending unit itself?

Yep. Two little philips screws. I can track that tank down and get better pictures if you want.


...it doesn't work at all with 12V connected.

Bizzare. I haven't had a chance to run one in my own car (we's be po' folk), but I haven't had any customers call with that complaint. The only one that's local isn't in the car yet, but I'll try and remember to see what the deal is when they wire that car.

Mean 69
05-03-2005, 09:06 PM
Why, oh why??? Did my battery die? I give up. But it did. New one works great.

Not terribly high on my concerns' chart, but the fuel sender still ain't working.

Here's a shot of the "Lateral One," otherwise known as the shop mule. This is with a 22 G Fuel Safe cell, catalog item.

Mark

As always, your mileage may vary, and we cannot be held responsible for anything that causes you issues you don't like.

USAZR1
05-04-2005, 02:51 PM
Whoa! What a killer ride,Mark.

zrrigid
11-20-2005, 06:52 PM
Any of you guys know where to get the spun aluminum funnel the unique uses on there fuel cells? They have the filler cap listed. I also looked at Rick's because they build the tanks for them. Just curious if anybody knew before I called.

Ian

kmcanally
11-20-2005, 07:06 PM
Maybe this one....for a 65 Shelby Mustang R Model.

http://www.cobranda.com/categoryget.asp?CatID=752&DeptID=1

scogin918
01-28-2006, 06:11 PM
Here is the Fuel Safe Enduro 22 gal cell going through the trunk pan. Thanks to Camtech Motorsports for the basket.

protour_chevelle
01-28-2006, 06:41 PM
Lookin great!

-Matt

JamesD
01-28-2006, 09:18 PM
Looks really good. Pretty much the same thing Ii plan todo. I'm guessing you are going to run an aircraft style fill cap on the tail panel? Where did you buy your cell from?

Damn True
01-28-2006, 09:25 PM
How is the trunk sealed from the outside environment?

jeffandre
01-28-2006, 10:29 PM
How is the trunk sealed from the outside environment?

I'm thinking the 'basket' is welded completely, or at least sealed very well between any welds. Then the Fuel Safe cell should rest ont he 'basket' edge with some form of gasket and seal fairly well. I built an enclosed box that will have a removable lid so that you cannot see the cell at all from inside or outside of the trunk. If I had to do it all over again, I would have just gotten a Fuel Safe cell like that one and dropped it in my closed box. The RCI aluminum cell I got I had to modify extensively to get it to work for road racing. I had to cut it open and weld in baffles, then foam-fill the thing. I also had to move the sump and the fill opening to fit my needs as well. Oh well, live and learn.

datsbad
01-28-2006, 10:54 PM
boy, that thing is really hanging down huh? did you intend for it to be this way ?
why not use a stock dimesion tank ?

scogin918
01-29-2006, 10:01 AM
Thanks for the comments. The Basket will be welded to the trunk pan along the entire perimeter. The bolts that go through the lid will be a little longer so they can go through the floor pan as well as the 1" tubing. It's either that or use inserts located in the tubing itself. The fuel cell is 9" deep but is elevated into the trunk 1"+ because of the trunk pan and tubing that it rests on. Just be glad I didn't get the 35 gal. tank. It is 13" tall but would've probably been to much weight with a full tank.

scogin918
01-29-2006, 10:14 AM
Looks really good. Pretty much the same thing Ii plan todo. I'm guessing you are going to run an aircraft style fill cap on the tail panel? Where did you buy your cell from?

Exactly. Just like the '67/'68's. It looks like it was supposed to be there. I bought the cell locally from Autometrics who ran in the Rolex 24 Hours this past weekend. They were out early though. There are a couple of internet dealers you can look up or try www.fuelsafe.com

Damn True
01-29-2006, 10:22 AM
Looks great BTW, I plan on having mine rest just about the same way.

datsbad
01-29-2006, 12:02 PM
guess its just personal preference on the look ???

keep the pics coming.

Einstein1
01-29-2006, 12:51 PM
How much did your fuel cell basket cost ya? Also does camtech motorsports have a website.

Matt

sinned
01-29-2006, 01:33 PM
So the fuel basket is welded to sheetmetal and not tied into the rear frame anywhere???

harshman
01-29-2006, 02:41 PM
I'm thinking of going with a sump fuel cell. The stock tank uses straps and most of the cells have mounting tabs. What is the ruling on this one? What will pass track specs? Can you suspend it without straps/tubing?

Damn True
01-29-2006, 05:43 PM
guess its just personal preference on the look ???

keep the pics coming.



Function over form.

I don't want a tank like Ricks because while they are baffled they are not foam filled and have no puncture sealing capacity like you get in a Fuel Safe cell. I don't want it in the trunk because in the event I back the car into a wall or get rear-ended on the highway I want more between me and 22ga of gas than the rear bulkhead. Having the cell below the car keeps the fuel out of the car.
Besides, I'd like to be able to use the trunk.
Putting the cell below the car is the best option in terms of safety and function.

That basket really ought to be mechanicly connected to the rear subframe either via bolts or welding.

BTW, this might be a good thread to have moved over to the General Tech/Safety forum.

vanzuuk1
01-29-2006, 06:19 PM
I like to see the cell from the rear of the car, its all business. You could paint it black and it would disappear.

Could you raise the cell into the trunk a few more inches or is it a weight issue? Gas does weigh a lot.

I am also curious about the cost of the basket.

John Monnin
01-29-2006, 06:31 PM
I guess a big fuel cell mounted really low helps the front to back weight distribution:)
Being able to read the Fuel Safe logo from behind is also kind a cool.

Please post pictures when the fuel fill is done.

sinned
01-29-2006, 07:54 PM
That basket really ought to be mechanically connected to the rear subframe either via bolts or welding.



BTW, this might be a good thread to have moved over to the General Tech/Safety forum.Thatís why I asked. I have never heard of anyone going through the trouble of running a properly build structure and then welding it to sheet metal. Would have been better off just bolting the cell to the trunk.



BTW, for those interested, welding the structure to the floor will not pass tech in any racing venue and is terribly unsafe, much more unsafe than a stock fuel container. You now have a really heavy flammable projectile only being held in place by very some poor welds (impossible to get good penetration welding 18ga to 1/4" square tubing). I hope there are some braces from the structure to the frame rail we don't see in the pics. Not trying to bust your nuts, just donít want anyone looking at this as a good example of a build process.

sinned
01-29-2006, 07:59 PM
No, the cell must be attached to a steel structure and that structure welded or attached with proper hardware to the vehicle chassis.

Matt@RFR
01-29-2006, 10:01 PM
BTW, for those interested, welding the structure to the floor will not pass tech in any racing venue and is terribly unsafe, much more unsafe than a stock fuel container. You now have a really heavy flammable projectile only being held in place by very some poor welds (impossible to get good penetration welding 18ga to 1/4" square tubing). I hope there are some braces from the structure to the frame rail we don't see in the pics. Not trying to bust your nuts, just donít want anyone looking at this as a good example of a build process

(Anal)El Wrong-O. It's certainly possible to run a structurally sound weld on those thicknesses, however it would take someone who's pretty proficient in the process to do it, and do it well. (/Anal)

With that said, I completely agree with Dennis about the (lack of) structural integrity of what you're doing.

Think about it this way: You have a full tank and get into a decent wreck, causing a 20g force. You now have a 2700 pound projectile headed for the passenger compartment.

If it were me, I'd weld it to the trunk floor like has been disgussed, but also run some outriggers to the frame rails with doubler plates on the frame rails, minimum. Don't take that thing lightly.

MrQuick
01-29-2006, 10:14 PM
We usually build a ladder frame that sits between the frame that that cage sits in. It also gets bolted and welded to it. Then the roll cage down bars are also ties into the cell cage. Minimum of .032 thick firewall which is fully sealed from the passenger compartment is a must! I know your not done yet but it looks good so far.

gchandler
01-29-2006, 10:58 PM
What we did on all the cars that we installed cells in this manner was put a rear firewall into the car. This allows the car to retain some sort of impact crush zone, but the trunk is now isolated from the passenger compartment by a sheet of steel. I would recommend doing this. It also increases the rigidity of the car as a whole. Much like the rear seat bracing that was done on the 1987 GNx cars.

Another good practice is to sandwitch the truck sheetmetal with two layers of tube, [tube - sheetmetal - tube] where the bottom is connected to the top so that the sheetmetal is literaly captured between the two pieces. Sorry I don't have a good picture of what I am talking about. Hope that makes sense.

The tank is also mounted low enough that if the force of impact was enough to somehow completely seperate it from the trunk it would simple run into the panhard crossmember and rearend.

Also it is important to note that the forward portion of the trunk on scogin918's camaro is no longer stock. It has been substantially reinforced, I can tell you from experiance you are going to love the way that your car handles when you get it on the road.


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1Bad68camaro
01-29-2006, 11:41 PM
How much do one of those cells cost?

Damn True
01-29-2006, 11:46 PM
They start around $700. But they are arguably the best in the business.

scogin918
01-30-2006, 05:10 AM
You guys bring up some good points. The perimeter of sheet metal around the basket is pretty stout due to its close proximity to the frame rails. That being said, it wouldn't take much to run another level of tubing underneath the sheet metal that also runs to the frame rails. Welding that in, coupled with all of the bolts that will tie the lid, bladder, case, and basket together, should suffice. To be honest I hadn't thought about the firewall seperating the trunk area.
The cell cost about $1000 with the surge tank installed to prevent any pick-up issues. The basket cost about $200-$225 materials and labor. I like the idea of seeing the cell and "FUEL SAFE" from behind as well. Plus, I still have something that closely resembles a useful trunk.
No hard feelings and keep the suggestions coming.

harshman
01-30-2006, 12:00 PM
could some of you guys post some pics of your cells please.

baz67
01-30-2006, 01:21 PM
Andy,

Shoot Mean69 a PM. I know he has a fuel Safe cell in his 69.

Steve1968LS2
01-30-2006, 02:42 PM
I wonder if this would pass..

https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/vbgarage.php?do=getimage&id=1851

The take sets in a metal "well" .. it's pretty secure.

Oh, the plastic tank is being ditched and a stainless one is being welded up by Ricks..

Damn True
01-30-2006, 03:11 PM
Provided that metal well and it's support sturcture are tied into the subframe, yes.

22ga of gas weighs almost 150lbs. If that assembly (along with the rest of the car) comes to a sudden stop (as in hitting a wall or another car) will that 150lb mass stay put or rip itself away from the sheetmetal?

Steve1968LS2
01-30-2006, 03:19 PM
Provided that metal well and it's support sturcture are tied into the subframe, yes.

22ga of gas weighs almost 150lbs. If that assembly (along with the rest of the car) comes to a sudden stop (as in hitting a wall or another car) will that 150lb mass stay put or rip itself away from the sheetmetal?

Damn good question.. I will take a look at it. the "box" is welded to the floor but not supported in any other way. I may look at re-inforcing it a bit.. didn't really think of it before. My tank will be 18 gallons but at 6lbs per a gallon it adds up.

Damn True
01-30-2006, 03:41 PM
6.8lbs

That structure needs to be tied to the chassis.

Damn True
01-30-2006, 03:46 PM
Some good stuff in this thread. Can we get it moved to General Tech/Safety?

Andrew has a similar thread going there. Might be usefull to combine.

scogin918
01-30-2006, 04:19 PM
Matt@lateraldynamics, Mr. Quick, gchandler and Dennis 68, could you come up with some better pictures? I looked for about an hour to try to find some way to tie this basket to the framerail. I was planning on welding the trunk pan to the Tube all the way around (from the bottom as well as the seam where the two metals meet) and then run bolts and washers through the tubing to the bottom side of the trunk pan. I can weld some tubing to the bottom of the frame rail and then bring it over to the lip that is welded to the basket.
As far as the firewall goes, how serious of a firewall? Can I weld up the holes on the back seat frame? What about the package tray? What about speakers? Would that compromise the integrity of the wall? This car will see a road course 4 or 5 times a year, but I don't want to worry about what could happen the idiot behind me rear-ending me while I'm driving around town with my wife.

Damn True
01-30-2006, 04:27 PM
words words words

sinned
01-30-2006, 05:53 PM
Here is the best one I could find of Mark fuel container (not a cell as it is not a certified bladder container)-

gchandler
01-30-2006, 11:21 PM
I spoke with Steve on the phone after work today and it looks like you called him up. I hope he was able to answer all your questions.

If it was for my personal car I would not worry about tieing it into the framerails. Besides the "framerails" on a camaro are simply sheetmetal anyhow. :)

There is a lot of strength in the area where the trunk floor kicks up, and that coupled with the low mounting position of the tank and a good bond to the trunk floor should be more then adequate.

As for the firewall, I would not put speaker holes in it, that would compromise part of the design. I believe that you would still have enough strength, but you lose the good seperation between the trunk and the passenger compartment.

On that note I have never been impressed with the stereo in a musclecar and have removed them from both of mine. (I even had a whole setup with my iPod and everything) I think that they look great on paper, but by the time you get down to driving the car you want to hear the engine and the stereo disrupts that.

I have driven as much as 4000 miles in my '64 chevelle in a single week, and not once did I miss having a stereo. I say give it a try without one, you can always add it later.

Damn True
01-31-2006, 12:59 AM
I gotta disagree with you dude. A 22ga cell, full of fuel, weighs well over 150lbs. IMO with that much weight you have got to take advantage of every opportunity to tie the cell support structure to the chassis.
It wouldn't take much of an impact to tear away something that heavy from an atachment to just the trunk floor sheetmetal. The penalty points for that thing coming loose are too high to screw with. Not something IMO to cut corners on.

It only costs money and time to make something safer, the cost of not making something safer is a lot more.

Rick Dorion
01-31-2006, 04:50 AM
And then there's the stock tanks which, to me, are a 'pinto problem'. I'd like to add a cell for safety reasons. Has anyone added protective bars around a stock tank to make it more crash resistant? Don't mean to take this thread in a different direction but am interested in gas tank safety.

harshman
01-31-2006, 07:50 AM
k.... I'll jump in here.

I'm trying to understand why there is a basket? It seems to me that the cell has a lip on the top and that should be your mounting point. Keep in mind that I have yet to buy one or see one up close. If my assumption is true then using two beams parallel with the bumper that bolt into the frame and sandwich the cell (bolting that as well) with side beams to match should do the trick (beams Ė structural steel be it tubing channel etc.).

Einstein1
01-31-2006, 08:36 AM
Not all cells have a mounting point on the very top, my atl 15 gal asa fuel cell has the lip on just one side of the cell. The basket does protect the cell from damage if you go over a really steep hill so it doesnt rub on the cell, plus if you properly tie it in to the frame it makes for an easy way to get the cell out if you have to quickly and efficently.


Matt

Stielow ran a fuel cell in the red witch and the tri tip maybe somebody can post those pictures.

gchandler
01-31-2006, 09:46 PM
What do pickup truck manufactures do to prevent cargo from ripping into the passenger compartment. I have had way more then 150lbs worth of stuff in the back of my silverado.

Is there a special structure to the design of a trucks sheetmetal that could be replicated while building a firewall to prevent this issue?

I know that there are 10's of millions of pickups out there, so I am going to ASSume that the manufactures have figured something out, but then again I have been wrong before.

sinned
01-31-2006, 09:51 PM
Pick-up trucks don't come factory equipped with all the junk people haul around. You are responsible for making sure the stuff in the back is properly secured and won't become a projectile in the event of an accident (in fact you will be responsible for any damage due to improperly secured cargo).

Damn True
01-31-2006, 10:04 PM
What is the point of a fuel cell? It's safer than a standard tank. People install them to make their car safer (there are people that put them in for style, but they're dorks) It's stupid to argue about this. If you have the opportunity to make something safer there is little reason not to do it and it's bloody irresponsible to advise someone against doing it.

Integrating the support structure of the cell into the chassis of the car makes the system safer. No reason not to do it.

Unless you want to be less safe, but I don't think Scogin is looking to be less safe or he wouldn't be installing a cell.

Steve1968LS2
01-31-2006, 10:16 PM
I could have sworn I posted in this thread.. am I loosing my mind??

CarlC
01-31-2006, 10:22 PM
Impact protection, from hitting something and being hit, is the primary function. The stock tank straps are sufficient for anything that tire traction can throw at it.

A friend of mine has a Fuelsafe tank that was custom made to fit into the stock location, has a stock shape (tapered rearward), and has internal baffling and pump. The shell is aluminum with a nicely manufactured bladder. The tank is filled through an access door in the trunk, hence the stock filler neck is not used. The filler neck is the weak link in 67-8 F-body tank, though I have not heard of many burned cars.

Around $1400.

Damn True
01-31-2006, 10:59 PM
I could have sworn I posted in this thread.. am I loosing my mind??


I think you'd chimed in on Harshman's fuel cell thread.

harshman
02-03-2006, 07:14 AM
does anyone have a pic of Big Red's tank?

CAMAROBOY69
02-06-2006, 11:43 AM
And then there's the stock tanks which, to me, are a 'pinto problem'. I'd like to add a cell for safety reasons. Has anyone added protective bars around a stock tank to make it more crash resistant? Don't mean to take this thread in a different direction but am interested in gas tank safety.
Woops sorry Rick I misread the "around stock tank" part. I have a fuel cell.
I am about to do this to my car using 1 5/8" tube like roll bar material. My rear bumpers will be tied together to an entire structure I am going to build to protect the fuel cell and the rear of the car in an accident. Since we all know the rear of these cars are terrible in rear end collisions. Virtually no strenght at all back there.

Skip Fix
09-16-2006, 06:56 AM
OK guys some input here please. Since the TA is getting switched from a drag car to more cornering teh 79 Camaro is getting switched to a drag car with a rool bar so we can go faster and not be in triuble and be safer. After spinning one night hard with a 1.5 60 ft car you really need a rool bar!

Since sumping a new tank is as much or more than a fuel cell I bought a 10 gallon aluminum one from Summit(good clearance sale now!) to put in the trunk. I want to add a fuel level sensor, but will have to pull the foam to drill it. I assume not a big deal.

I HATE gas smell in the car, plus the safety issues but figure the cell in the trunk is the easiest. Elevate it so even the sump is in the trunk-otherwise there has to be suppoer underneath it per NHRA. So wil run the fule lines throught the trunk.

I have seen vents with coiled hard line, coiled SS braid, or just the roll over vent fitting on them. I would guess venting it out the trunk. Iknow my circle track buddies even put a filter on it so trash, wasp nests can't get in the vent.

What is the best fill cap? Curently it has a plastic lever type. Switch to a metal lever type, screw type. 45 degree fill neck?

Any thoughts or pictures?

Skip Fix
09-19-2006, 06:57 AM
Surely some of you have fuel cell pictures.

speedster
09-19-2006, 08:37 AM
Skip -
It's a matter of choice. RCI, Fuel Safe, Summit all make remote filler necks, etc. The one thing you have to remember about having a cell in the trunk (and this also addresses your smell issue) is that NHRA rules require you to have the trunk sealed off from the passenger compartment. You do this by welding in sheet steel or aluminum behind the rear seat. This needs to be sealed all the way around.
Anyway, just some thoughts.

Skip Fix
09-19-2006, 07:44 PM
After the roll bar goes in it'll be sealed. just want some opinion of pros and cons of various fillers and vents people have found.

ponjohn
01-16-2007, 09:36 AM
Self explanatory,I am not interested in a fuel cell in the trunk.

john

RobM
01-18-2007, 05:56 PM
in a few weeks ill have some pictures for you..


heres some insperation though

http://www.hotrodstohell.net/cars_from_hell/tims_1969_camaro/mediafiles/l105.jpg
http://www.hotrodstohell.net/cars_from_hell/tims_1969_camaro/mediafiles/l101.jpg
http://www.hotrodstohell.net/cars_from_hell/tims_1969_camaro/mediafiles/l114.jpg

GBodyGMachine
01-18-2007, 07:07 PM
That is exactly what I want to do. Where can you buy a fuel call like that?

Jeff

MSchu
01-18-2007, 07:43 PM
That is exactly what I want to do. Where can you buy a fuel call like that?

Jeff
ATL and Fuel Safe.

Twin_Turbo
01-19-2007, 02:35 AM
I took off almost all the red paint (still have to do 1 side) because I'm going to have it powdercaoted. It's a 32gal ATL cell.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2007/01/roller12-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2007/01/roller16-1.jpg

ProBell
01-19-2007, 03:29 AM
This is how I did mine.

Randy

68Camaro
02-18-2007, 05:52 PM
From yalls experience, what is the best size to use and fits the location?

Jared

jeffandre
02-18-2007, 08:00 PM
I took a 20-gallon RCI aluminum fuel cell and dropped it through the trunk. The fuel cell containment box sticks up into the trunk anout 3 inches at the most, and below the trunk a few inches more than the stock tank did. I am going to cover it with an aluminum lid. Will still be able to fill through the license plate fill location.

http://new.photos.yahoo.com/jaandre@sbcglobal.net/album/576460762323336497/photo/294928803274190781/7
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/jaandre@sbcglobal.net/album/576460762323336497/photo/294928803274186380/0
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/jaandre@sbcglobal.net/album/576460762323336497/photo/294928803274187111/1
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/jaandre@sbcglobal.net/album/576460762323336497/photo/294928803274189286/5
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/jaandre@sbcglobal.net/album/576460762323336497/photo/294928803274187705/2

badass66
02-21-2007, 07:12 PM
Need a little help.
Just installing the new fuel cell in trunk of my 66 chevelle. Need to ask a stupid novice question. Which way should I mount the cell? Sump on one side and vent and sender are on other side. Which should be towards the rear of car? Do I cut a hole in the trunk floor to set the sump into or shim up the tank (off the floor)?
Thanks for the help.
Glen

71dusterdan
02-28-2007, 05:13 PM
okay looking for somebody really knowledgeable. why the diff in fuel cells. most road racing organizations say no to plastic cells, but all modern cars have plastic fuel tanks. they all say no to jaz and rci, yet you can buy these in a can just as you can a fuelsafe or atl. i know the big dollar cells have a rubber type material bladder, rather than plastic. if they are in a can why the nitpicking(for lack of a better word) I'm not trying to downplay the safety just personally ignorant. hell they sell them which would stand to reason that, some kind of organization accepts them, or else they are all bling for the ricers. just a HUGE disparity in price. if nothing else is a sumped stock tank addequate for a track day and occasional auto-x car. thanks in advance, i know somebody will step up to educate me. Dan:wedgie:

LS6 Tommy
03-03-2007, 04:11 PM
If your goal is to pass an SCCA tech inspection, it HAS to be FIA certified, the certification # must be visible, and there MUST be a "quick access" port of some sort for fuel sampling. At least in GT1.

There are probably other things involved, but it's been so long since I installed a cell I honestly don't remember.

Tommy

sinned
03-04-2007, 04:11 PM
okay looking for somebody really knowledgeable. why the diff in fuel cells. most road racing organizations say no to plastic cells, but all modern cars have plastic fuel tanks. they all say no to jaz and rci, yet you can buy these in a can just as you can a fuelsafe or atl. i know the big dollar cells have a rubber type material bladder, rather than plastic. if they are in a can why the nitpicking(for lack of a better word) I'm not trying to downplay the safety just personally ignorant. hell they sell them which would stand to reason that, some kind of organization accepts them, or else they are all bling for the ricers. just a HUGE disparity in price. if nothing else is a sumped stock tank addequate for a track day and occasional auto-x car. thanks in advance, i know somebody will step up to educate me. Dan:wedgie:
Plastic cells are not allowed because they will open up during an accident. RCI/JAZ/Summit, etc... are not allowed as they do not have the internal bladder again to prevent leakage in an accident. The ultimate reason for the small number cells that are allowed is the cell has to maintain its integrity in a collision and NOT LEAK. Fuel safe is pretty much the only company that goes through the trouble and expense of ensuring this doesnít happen.

Damn True
03-04-2007, 11:03 PM
The plastic cans are ok in many drag classes but as stated above SCCA and NASA require FIA certification in classes that require a cell.

A Fuel Safe or ATL bladder has a far higher tear and puncture resistance than any plastic can. Additionally, their foam baffels will mitigate the chance of flash explosion.

bret
04-18-2007, 05:32 PM
I need to find a good fuel cell for my Mustang. What are you guys using? Results?

fishtail8
04-18-2007, 08:43 PM
I put a 17gal Jaz fuel cell in, with a sending unit, and a modified 45degree filler neck. I used the oval track version to keep the fuel lines inside the car instead of hanging out the back....

ProBell
04-19-2007, 02:22 AM
What are you planing to do with the car? What type of fuel pump are you going to run? Randy

PTAddict
04-19-2007, 06:40 AM
Fuel Safe makes a direct-fit replacement for the stock early Mustang tank:

http://fuelsafe.com/pdf/Mustang.pdf

They also build cells to your custom spec - just give them drawings - and will include things like in-tank pumps, fuel level senders, etc. I had them build a custom one for my '71 with in-tank pump and sender. Not cheap - about $2200, I recall - but their off-the-shelf items are not as expensive.

gt1guy
07-14-2007, 11:10 AM
ATL

kevin

Steve1968LS2
08-09-2007, 01:15 PM
My 18 gallon tank arrived yesterday and we're mounting it today. It has the internal Bosch pump and an aluminum can with a "hat" design rather than a flat lid. This kept it from hanging too low under the car.

Anyways, Gary at FS said that for a "street" car I was good to go for just mounting it to a 2x2 square-tube frame between the frame rails. That would mean all the weight would be supported by the flange.

He said that in a competition enviorment where the car might be bounding a lot (over rumple strips or curbs) then they reccomend building some sort of cage to support weight in the center of tank rather than just on the flange.

I'm sorta torn.. My car isn't a "race car" but it will see track days. He says the cage isn't necessary but I think it would be a good idea just to lend extra support. We would do the cage out of 1x1 or 1x1/2 square tubing with three straps running front to back. The flange would be supported by 2x2 tied to the frame rails.

Like this: http://www.hotrodstohell.net/cars_from_hell/tims_1969_camaro/index9.htm

What say you? Cage or not.. not would be a cleaner look and offer more clearance.. a cage would be "safer" and require more fab work and would add weight.

Hmmmmmmm

Steve Chryssos
08-09-2007, 01:40 PM
Jake, Jake's Rod Shop, built mine with frame and a cradle. Then he rebuilt the trunk with sheetmetal to make it look like it was always there. Fuel cell is a custom stainless steel piece by IIMuch Fabrication. Do the cradle. It will add piece of mind and you can use 1"x1" square tube.

http://web.mac.com/streetfytr/iWeb/TwistMachineLLC/Upgrades.html

Steve1968LS2
08-09-2007, 01:55 PM
Jake, Jake's Rod Shop, built mine with frame and a cradle. Then he rebuilt the trunk with sheetmetal to make it look like it was always there. Fuel cell is a custom stainless steel piece by IIMuch Fabrication. Do the cradle. It will add piece of mind and you can use 1"x1" square tube.

http://web.mac.com/streetfytr/iWeb/TwistMachineLLC/Upgrades.html

Yea, seems like a "better safe than sorry" deal.. I'm generally a more-is-less kind of guy, but when it comes to safety I guess more is better. lol -- I just didn't want to feel I was going overboard.

The FUEL SAFE unit is sweet.. I will post some pics tomorrow.

CamaroAJ
08-09-2007, 02:14 PM
this picture is a few years old so alot is changed but the fuel cell is still the same. 1x1 square tube.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2007/08/camaro002-1.jpg

Steve1968LS2
08-09-2007, 02:38 PM
Thanks, I think we will be doing three "straps" rather than two.. Like in the HR-to-Hell pics..

CamaroAJ
08-09-2007, 02:43 PM
i'm still debateing weither to add a 3rd one and ones on the side. i'll prolly do it just to be safe.

70TWO NOVA
08-09-2007, 03:42 PM
Cage it, It is a purpose built car after all....isnt it?

Steve1968LS2
08-12-2007, 07:58 AM
Cage it, It is a purpose built car after all....isnt it?

Fine, have it your way!!!! ;)

The "cage" for the new fuel cell..

The mounting rack:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

With the can, tank and top installed:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Steve Chryssos
08-12-2007, 08:52 AM
That cell ain't goin nowhere. And you have two extra crossmembers between your framerails. Poifect!

parsonsj
08-12-2007, 09:22 AM
Steve,
That's nice. And worth it for safety I think. My aluminum cell on II Much has an internal cage just like that.

jp

Steve1968LS2
08-12-2007, 09:31 AM
That cell ain't goin nowhere. And you have two extra crossmembers between your framerails. Poifect!

Yea, I figure that's a bonus.. We painted the cage black and the can will either be Fuel Safe red or, most likely, grey to match the frame and rearend. I wanted to run the 22 gallon cell but my narrowed rear frame rails killed that idea. 18 gallons should still give me well over a 400 mile range on the highway.

MrQuick
08-12-2007, 10:28 AM
Im glad you went with the cage Steve. As I always advise my customers, even if your car isn't going to see much track time, a race part should be mounted like a race part.

Actually a street driven car might see a bit more harsh conditions than on the track. How offen do you travel 40-60 miles on rough track.

Looks good BTW.

MarkM66
08-12-2007, 02:23 PM
Did someone make that cage? Or was it bought from Fuel Safe?

Steve1968LS2
08-12-2007, 03:22 PM
Did someone make that cage? Or was it bought from Fuel Safe?

We made it at Best Of Show.. You pretty much have to custom make the cage and bracing to fit the car.

70TWO NOVA
08-12-2007, 04:10 PM
Thanks!!, I feel mcuh better now!! :cool:

Fine, have it your way!!!! ;)

The "cage" for the new fuel cell..

The mounting rack:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

With the can, tank and top installed:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

scogin918
08-15-2007, 04:28 AM
I copied the HTH basket in my car as well. I have the 22 gal as I didn't do the mini-tubs. Did you already have a firewall behind the rear seat? What about the package tray? I'll put some pics of mine up later today. We just finished welding it in for good with some braces to the rear suspension supports. We also welded the lip of the basket to the trunk pan all the way around. The guy welding it was standing in it while he was doing it so hopefully it won't be going anywhere.

speED
12-19-2007, 05:55 AM
I have a Harwood fuel cell in the trunk of my 67 Camaro. Fumes fill the garge when car is not used. Fumes are definetly coming from the fuel cell rollover vent. Does anyone know of a kit or some type of solution? Currently I attach the vent to a garden hose which extends over to the garge door. I thought of attaching a charcoal canister, but without being attached to the intake system that will also be an inconvenience as it fills with fuel.

Thanks,
ED

CamaroAJ
12-26-2007, 04:14 PM
i put a charcoal canister on my car, they don't fill up with fuel unless you hooked something up wrong. i could deffently tell when i had it hooked up. i forgot to put the cap back on after i was messing around with the tank and when i got home the next day the whole house reaked of gas.

ho428
01-17-2008, 11:03 AM
Looking at a JAZ, http://www.jazproducts.com/pro_sport_fc.html #270-122-06
this seems to be the only one I can find 34" x 18 x 10. All others are pretty deep.
But, a 22 gallon, foam filled, steel case with D ring is $340 from Jegs and 2-3 weeks, $365 direct but ships in one day.

Any other options out there? Will I have issues with the fuel pick up? It's on the back right. Several road course tracks are mainly right hand turns.

scogin918
01-18-2008, 05:53 AM
I got a 22 gal from Fuel Safe and it is only 13" deep.

http://www.fuelsafe.com/pdf/RoadRacing.pdf

I got the Enduro ED122B. Where in SC are you? I bought mine here locally from Autometrics. They are a Porsche road racing outfit here in Charleston.

ho428
01-18-2008, 07:33 AM
I'm in Greenville, fuel safe quoted me the SM122E and the PC122E direct so I know it was list $ but...
The SM was $1400, the JAZ is less than $400 with shipping and all.
I like the fuel safe better but jeez, that's a big difference.

How much was the ED122-B you got? Even though I'd go with the A for my car.

scogin918
01-18-2008, 07:53 AM
How much was the ED122-B you got? Even though I'd go with the A for my car.[/quote]

I'll have to dig up the receipt, but from what I remember it was pricey. There are some internet retailers that you could check out to get a ballpark figure.

fordsbyjay
01-25-2008, 07:04 PM
How much was the ED122-B you got? Even though I'd go with the A for my car.
I'll have to dig up the receipt, but from what I remember it was pricey. There are some internet retailers that you could check out to get a ballpark figure.[/quote]

Here is a price from http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/category/Fuel_Safe_Enduro_Cell_Racing_Bladder. I have been looking around myself so I have a question as to the differences in the Fuelsafe units. I was looking at the enduro or the sportsman. The liner is different but they are both rated for gasoline so does it matter as far as street car requirements? How long does a liner usually last?

I am in the process of changing my entire fuel system and by the time you buy a tank from Ricks or modify a new one you are close to spending what an enduro tanks cost (or less with a Jazz).

Steve Chryssos
01-26-2008, 02:18 PM
Looks like you guys are hungry for some pix. Here's a couple of links to go thru. I'll elaborate in great detail when I have more time.

http://homepage.mac.com/streetfytr/PhotoAlbum71.html

Finished install
http://web.mac.com/streetfytr/iWeb/TwistMachineLLC/Upgrades.html

Steve Chryssos
01-26-2008, 05:32 PM
Here's some quick and random, but important thoughts.

Before I start, my fuel tank is the product of help from friends. The tank is built out of stainless steel by John Parsons. It's heavy but incredibly strong. I gave up on aluminum as it has a tendency to suffer a problem known as Work Hardening over time. I went thru two aluminum RCI type tanks before making the switch to SS. Both aluminum tanks developed cracks in corners as well as seamed areas.
As for installation, Jake's Rod Shop stepped up to build the cradle and new brackets. Prior to Jake Parrott's efforts, the tank was bolted directly to the trunk floor. This is not an acceptable practice for any sump style install that requires a hole in the floor. The trunk pan literally tore around the mounts as a result of wheel hop from drag racing as well as ordinary NY driving and Power Tour. Jake did an amazing job of building a study structure and rebuilding the trunk floor to yield a finished appearance.

Thoughts:
1) The trunk pan contours do NOT lend themselves to fuel cell installation. The recessed area is rounded and irregular in shape. Before you take the plunge, know that the only way to do this right is to completely eliminate the recessed and contoured surfaces. It's a big hole. If you don't flatten the trunk floor, you will never be able to properly seal the floor to the cell. Get out to the garage and study the fuel neck area, curved corners, sloping sides, and sloping forward area where the spare tire mount is located. Any surfaces that are not parallel to the ground need to go. The following picture best describes this concern. Yes, that's Jake going to town on my trunk and yes, he has smallish ears.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
2)The all square-tube crossmembers are welded directly to the frame rails in front of and behind the cell. In the case of my car, the forward cross tube (perpendicular to frame rails) is also doubled up against my shock crossmember. Once the front and rear cross tubing was welded into place, two side tubes (parallel to frame rails) were welded to the cross tubes and frame rails. This creates a basic rectangle that can accept the lower cradle pieces.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
3) The lower cradle was added after body work to make it easier to work on the car. Turns out that framework was the easy part. the biggest challenge in all of this is dealing with the giant hole. When you cut away all non flat surfaces, you create a really big irregular hole. With the basic rectangular structure in place, Jake made four pieces of sheetmetal measuring about 30" by 16". He then put 90 degree bends in all four pieces. Yes, I was scratching my head. So you get a 30" by 8" horizontal surface that meets a 30" by 8" vertical surface. Get it?
Slide the vertical surfaces down against the outside edges of the rectangle/ The horizontal surfaces get trimmed to match the trunk pan. Once installed, bondo and Shutz paint are used to make the new sheetmetal look like it has always been there. Amazing. Finally the tank was test fitted and the lower cradle was built around the tank.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
This task is best left to a professional. If you're anywhere in the northeast, just call Jake. A safe mount is not the only concern. Done poorly, you'll end up with a trunk full of exhaust fumes and moisture. Stare at your trunk pan with tank measurements in hand and think twice before cutting that hole.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

fordsbyjay
01-26-2008, 06:13 PM
Does anyone consider the 22 gal cell to be rather large? How much volume do you lose with foam in the cell?

roadracer55
01-26-2008, 07:05 PM
What do you all think of what I made up? Is this ever gonna get approved? I have one large sumped tank above the irs, and that splits to two in-floor tanks.

The idea is that
a) i'll use just the in-floor tanks when racing to keep the weight low
c) I have two pumps so I can use one on street (the other is reserve) and both for sprints

Thoughts?

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2007/08/1007370159_3e6efb2965-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/01/1008227016_9775b91fd9-1.jpg

Twin_Turbo
01-28-2008, 09:01 AM
32 gallon ATL cell.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/01/framecomplete7-1.jpg

Steve1968LS2
01-30-2008, 08:13 AM
I fixed the images.. :)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

scogin918
01-30-2008, 10:13 AM
Here are some of my pics for the 22 gal Enduro cell from Fuel Safe



https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/01/DSC01357-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/01/DSC01356-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/01/DSC01355-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/01/DSC01354-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/01/DSC01334-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/01/DSC01333-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/01/DSC01332-1.jpg


Many thanks to Josh at Camtech Motorsports here in Charleston.

Steve Chryssos
01-30-2008, 10:29 AM
NICE! Not bad for a bunch of "street squirrel" hot rodders, huh?

parsonsj
01-30-2008, 11:52 AM
Geez, Steve, that tank looks a whole lot nicer than I remember!

Glad it is still working well.

My internal-framed aluminum tank seems to be holding up well too. It's got 2 years of holding liquids successfully.

jp

johnny rockett
01-30-2008, 04:28 PM
I have a question for you guys.......I have run fuel cells for years in my street cars. I always like the safty part........so I never never never would consider running a AN style fitting off the back that is soooooooo vunerable in any kind of accident. That sucker will come off in a second during a crash and the fuel is comming out. Its like the fuel cell does nothing for you? The lines off the back of the sump has been done for years and as nice as your cars are you forgot the one important thing.......you regressed to some very old school thinking??

Whats the option: Simple front mounted interior sump just like Nascar with three trap doors........never run out of fuel I dont care what your doing. How did this get overlooked? Its in all the fuel cell catalogs ATL/Fuel Safe

So you gusy spent the money to be safe but are not at all with exposed lines. Your lines could have exited in the front left corner on the side of the tank not the bottom. Clean look and very very safe. No lines stick out the back for some idiot with a crecent wrench to reach down and undo either? Send those fuel cells back and get those internal sumps put in.....your messing with a fireball with rear mounted exposed tank lines.

Thats was done in the seventies.....your cars are beautiful and my hats off to you but you missed on the fuel exiting your cells.

scogin918
01-30-2008, 05:47 PM
Which set-up are you referring to? It looks like most of the set-ups pictured have the supply/return lines coming from the top of the cell which would be inside the trunk area going forward; not to the back of the car. My fuel cell has a surge tank to ensure that it never runs dry in a cornering or hard braking situation. You are correct that pumps and lines mounted at the bottom rear of the car are not an ideal place. I have seen many a fire from a line that had been inadvertently knocked off.

parsonsj
01-30-2008, 07:42 PM
Simple front mounted interior sump just like Nascar with three trap doors........never run out of fuel I dont care what your doing. I'll have a look. I never heard of it until now. Good tip.

jp

scogin918
01-31-2008, 03:22 AM
I'll have a look. I never heard of it until now. Good tip.

jp

It's basically the same thing as the surge tank; instead of three check balls it has trap doors

http://www.fuelsafe.net/pdf/RoadRacing.pdf Look for the ST100-B

johnny rockett
01-31-2008, 06:40 AM
I believe both Parsons Nova and Bad Penny have rear exiting fuel lines that are exposed to the world. Both of those care have a great deal of attention to detail and are beautiful........but I have been scratching my head on why they chose to run the fuel lines out the back? That is a huge safty issue and not only that it is ugly and detracts from both of these cars engineering principles.

The surge tanks aka enclosed sumps have been in Nascar for years. You can locate them toward the front of the tank where nobody can see a fuel line and not only that in the event of a rear end collision however it happens the lines are totally protected. If one of those cars get smacked hard now in the rear.........big problem.

They will allow you to run the tank down to about a pint of fuel before running out. What more could you ask for.....Safty and something that works perfect.

Steve1968LS2
01-31-2008, 07:49 AM
I have a question for you guys.......I have run fuel cells for years in my street cars. I always like the safty part........so I never never never would consider running a AN style fitting off the back that is soooooooo vunerable in any kind of accident. That sucker will come off in a second during a crash and the fuel is comming out. Its like the fuel cell does nothing for you? The lines off the back of the sump has been done for years and as nice as your cars are you forgot the one important thing.......you regressed to some very old school thinking??

Whats the option: Simple front mounted interior sump just like Nascar with three trap doors........never run out of fuel I dont care what your doing. How did this get overlooked? Its in all the fuel cell catalogs ATL/Fuel Safe

So you gusy spent the money to be safe but are not at all with exposed lines. Your lines could have exited in the front left corner on the side of the tank not the bottom. Clean look and very very safe. No lines stick out the back for some idiot with a crecent wrench to reach down and undo either? Send those fuel cells back and get those internal sumps put in.....your messing with a fireball with rear mounted exposed tank lines.

Thats was done in the seventies.....your cars are beautiful and my hats off to you but you missed on the fuel exiting your cells.

???

what tank are you talking about.. my Fuel Safe unit has the exit from the top of the tank.. I think that's the most common way.

Steve1968LS2
01-31-2008, 07:52 AM
I believe both Parsons Nova and Bad Penny have rear exiting fuel lines that are exposed to the world. Both of those care have a great deal of attention to detail and are beautiful........but I have been scratching my head on why they chose to run the fuel lines out the back? That is a huge safty issue and not only that it is ugly and detracts from both of these cars engineering principles.


Nope.. my lines exit the top of the tank.. not the back.

The original design of the car had the lines exiting from the rear. This is how the car came to me and I didn't want to redesign the whole back to change it.

After the accident I decided to make it the way I really wanted so the Fuel Safe went in with top lines.

Nonetheless, I took a pretty good hit to the back of the car and my rear exiting lines never spilled a drop. That doesn't mean I think they are "safe". Just wanted to point out how they did.

JMarsa
01-31-2008, 08:18 AM
What are my options using a cell but using the OEM fill location of behind the licence plate?

I have tank like this:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Do all cells have to have the filler on the top??

If it was mounted low enough (and the tank was short) could an elbow be fabbed to route behind the license plate?

--JMarsa

parsonsj
01-31-2008, 08:23 AM
That is a huge safty issue and not only that it is ugly and detracts from both of these cars engineering principles.Safety point taken. Sounds like an engineering upgrade might need to be in the works. I would point out that my cell is surrounded by 2x4 tube, supplemented by an internal frame, and further supported by a roll cage tube. It will survive a decent smack without issue, and I do have flexible line connecting the tank/pump tubing and the main chassis hard lines. As far as ugly is concerned, that's in the eye of the beholder. Nicely bent hard lines are pleasing to my eye.

Anybody got a picture of a tank being fab'ed with the Fuel Safe trapdoor pickups? I'm still not quite picturing how it works.

jp

scogin918
01-31-2008, 08:56 AM
The surge tank fits in a hole cut out in the foam within the bladder towards the front of the tank (when facing it) at the bottom. It is a pretty snug fit. They don't leave a lot of room for anything else, i.e a fuel pump.

parsonsj
01-31-2008, 09:10 AM
OK, so how does the fuel get from the surge tank to the pump? That's what I'm not getting.

ho428
01-31-2008, 09:48 AM
Does anyone consider the 22 gal cell to be rather large? How much volume do you lose with foam in the cell?

22 gallons works for me because of running the hour long endurance race. 500 hp burns app 25 gallons per hour, the enduro race requires 1 pit stop anytime before the last 15 minutes of the race. 22 gallons gives you lots of options.
For instance, if you get in a tight bunch of cars, that'll slow your lap times, go ahead and pit, you'll get away away from them and get some open track and run faster lap times.

Or you're running free and clear the whole race, pit near the end of your window. You made the most of your race.

scogin918
01-31-2008, 10:10 AM
OK, so how does the fuel get from the surge tank to the pump? That's what I'm not getting.

The pump can be mounted inside the bladder directly to the fitting coming out of the surge tank. Fuel Safe actually sells a surge tank with a Bosch pump inside the surge tank.

syborg tt
01-31-2008, 12:31 PM
Instead of me posting a bunch of pics. You can go here and look at how we did my tank

http://www.sportmachines.com/gallery/fueldeliv

scogin918
01-31-2008, 05:39 PM
Very nice. How many gallons did it end up holding? Nice use of space between the frame rails.

ho428
02-18-2008, 07:41 AM
I used a lot of info in this thread but even with that I still spent the better part of two days figuring out this fuel cell mount and cage. I've built drag cars with 5 gallon poly tanks but never a tank this big for a Road Race car.
A steel case 22 gallon fuel cell in a 68 Firebird with an X'd roll cage is a very tight fit.
I had to make the frame and cage in two pieces. The main frame is U shaped and welded with the main tube welded between the rear frame rails at the spring perches, the front cross member bolts to the frame, has the cage welded to it, it bolts to the the rear welded mount. Kind of a clam shell system. But that's the "only" way I could come up with to be able to remove it.
I still have to secure the tank but at least the frame is somewhat figured out.
What a PITA.

MarkM66
02-18-2008, 12:33 PM
"Yes, that's Jake going to town on my trunk and yes, he has smallish ears." -Steve

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Steve Chryssos
02-18-2008, 03:06 PM
That Jake can take a hit as well as he can dish it out. :box2:

ho428
03-31-2008, 11:09 AM
Fuel cell is in, still have to put some sheetmetal around it to close in the gaps.
What about the vent line? I thought about putting a loop in the line and running it out of the trunk lock hole since I have pins now.
Opinion?

Hidro
03-31-2008, 12:08 PM
Fuel cell is in, still have to put some sheetmetal around it to close in the gaps.
What about the vent line? I thought about putting a loop in the line and running it out of the trunk lock hole since I have pins now.
Opinion?

Looks good, dont forget to put a check-valve in your vent line in case of rollover.

:bananna2:

ProBell
03-31-2008, 04:19 PM
I am running the same cell as you by the looks of it. I will tell you about a few of the problems I had. My first breather ran to the back went up high and then down out the floor. The fule would still splash out at the track and I was black flagged a few times. The way it is now works well but I want to do some thing better with the filter hanging of the back of the car. I also had a lot of problems with the pickup. It would pull air if the tank was below 1/2. I use a Aeromotive 1000 pump. Once the smart valves were installed the problem went away. I have since went to 8 valves not just the 4 as shown. Hope it helps Randy

jason@gmachine
04-15-2008, 05:23 PM
here is a setup we did where the cell bolts in from the bottom.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif


jason

pitts64
02-15-2009, 07:04 AM
delete

Damn True
03-31-2009, 07:48 AM
Can anyone here say with any degree of certainty if the pump on this surge tank would support a ~480hp LS3?

http://www.atlinc.com/download.php?file=pdfs/Racing/21_ATLCFD.pdf

Or would one need another pump between the cell and the engine?

chicane67
04-02-2009, 09:54 PM
Stick to one pump. Are you really set with using ATL... or are you open to options ??

Reason for question: I had a very long and in-depth conversation with Gary at Fuel Safe on just about every aspect of using the 'right' cell for the application. I'll tell you... I was all ready set to drop the $2500+ for the cell that I felt was necessary. Well... after the conversation with Gary... it was several hundred less and ended up with an even better result. I recommend that you give Gary a call... it's definitely worth your time.


Cliffnotes:

I am running a PC122'B' in aluminum. Its 25.5 x 17.125 x 13.75". It has an ST-100 sump/surge with ball check valves and I will be stuffing a Bosch (Kinsler part number 10211, found here, plus this info is a must read (http://www.kinsler.com/page--HandbookCatalog--2.html)) EFI pump... which is the most used pump in this application. You can also find information on this specific pump at HRP. (http://www.hrpworld.com/index.cfm?tpc=Fuel_Pump_-_Bosch_High_Pressure&form_prod_id=94,50_636&action=product) The cell has provisions for feed, return, vent, sender and a screw cap fill.

Now for the why. The cell is narrower than the stock tank by 11.5"... which helps with keeping fuel in the sump from reduced lateral fuel slosh and allows the exhaust to come out the back (like Rupp's). The cell is shorter in width than the stock tank by 6.875"... which allows you to locate the cell further forward to keep the weight closer to the axle and doesn't act as a pendulum when you are shaking the tail end and it helps with keeping fuel in the sump from reduced longitudinal fuel slosh... and it also provides you some 'crush' room in the event of an accident. Also, it allowed me to configure the structure for the chute anchor to the frame rails and build in some protection. The cell is taller than the stock tank by 4.75"... which when used with their uncut 12" fuel sender leaves you with 1.75" of "reserve" when the gage reads empty, which is 2.90 gallons... a built in safety. The particular Bosch pump is the most used pump in the our line of work... so they are every where... and finding one, if your pump dies at the track becomes easier... especially if it is the most common pump used. I also opted for an aluminum "Hat" can (similar to how Rupp did his)... so if an accident or gravity pulls the car into something more resilient... and it comes in contact with the ground or whatever... it wont spark. No spark, no combustion. Plus it's a little lighter. The "Procell" bladder is better for the climate that you (and I) live in... plus it's less hygroscopic and will live longer in the climate that you reside and the fact that you wont be emptying it and air it out after every use. FT3... is more than enough for what you have plans for.

Now... I should leave the reason for using the ball check valves vice that of the trap doors to your conversation with Gary. I'd try and explain it... but I don't have the time for the typing envolved... meaning, there are many reasons.

Damn True
04-06-2009, 10:09 AM
Not married to the idea of the ATL cell. Just attracted to the plug/play nature of that setup. Me no likey R&D.

pitts64
04-07-2009, 04:48 AM
delete]

Damn True
04-07-2009, 08:58 AM
My car will have no rear seat and will have a full bulkhead. Not an issue.

vyking67
04-07-2009, 09:22 AM
is it possible to run a fuel cell and also run the stock fuel tank....
just looking for more range.. .. i have thought about this for some time.. but when i saw bullrun, and the mustang was running a fuel cell in the trunk and the stock tank i was wondering how they ran their setup.. if anyone knows... im interested in hearing about it..

i mean could the cell mounted in the trunk just basically drain into the stock tank, to increase the capacity???? or would that force fuel out of the stock filler neck on a 67 camaro because the cell in higher.. just looking for some options on increasing my range..

vyking67
04-17-2009, 10:18 AM
did i just single handedly kill this conversation

vyking67
04-22-2009, 05:18 AM
:drive2:destroyed....

rohrt
04-22-2009, 11:48 AM
My bro has a fuel cell in the trunk and stock tank for his 68 GTO. In his case he uses the fuel cell to put in 100 octane for the NOS system gas solinoids. Not for exstending rang.

The old SVO mustangs use to have a set up like that. Many of the old 70s and 80s pickup had dual tanks and I'm sure you could set up something similar.

troysspeedshop
10-15-2011, 02:42 PM
the tank holds gas psi ?

67 455 Bird ragtop
04-20-2012, 08:32 AM
Made a new thread...

Kelticwarrior
11-16-2013, 05:54 AM
its getting close to time to be looking around for a fuel cell, the car will be about 98% street car with some autocross and drag racing. but since i do plan on racing it am i going to need a fuel cell with baffels in it to keep the fuel near the pick up :hmm: ? i haven't really found much on this subject so if anyone has any info on this thanks in advance.

Ricks tanks can custom make a fuel tank with baffels and all the pumps and goodies that go with it and they're out of stainless steel so they'll last forever. Here you go:- http://www.rickstanks.com/

imogenemessier
09-15-2014, 03:24 AM
you can go for nacsar style.. one of my friend has used it and got good results in reasonable price.
win pokies (http://www.shiorishobou.com/)

ekmxryda
05-22-2015, 06:34 PM
Planning out my fuel cell, made up a SolidWorks assembly to help make sure a 22 Gallon will fit in the space I have.
I want to sandwich the trunk floor with 1.25" square tube (grey tubes) should be strong when I tie in the original fuel tank brace. Then use 1" square tube (blue) to build the rest of the cage. Bottom will have 14 Gage CRS plate to seal it away from the elements. Will make a bolt on sheet metal top cover so just the fill plate is visible. Looking at Fuel Safe with the surge tank, I modeled the 25.5" x 17.125" x 13.75" but an ATL tank will also fit with shims.

113177113178

Would love to get some feedback.
Thanks