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View Full Version : The General Is Dead !!!!!!!!!!!!!



rob07002
09-28-2004, 07:16 PM
I know I'll probably get alot of heat for this, but I have NEVER been so disappointed in being a General Motors devotee in my entire life. I just finished watching "Extreme Mustang, Back to the Track", on the Discovery Channel and they did a show on the new 2005 Grand Am race Mustang, WOW, the car is BAD!!!! It sounds, handles, stops and looks as good as it gets. WHAT THE HELL IS GM DOING!!!!! Is there anything for a GM guy to get excited about? I mean besides the vette ( if you want to spend $45k+ ) what is in the pipeline for us to look forward to? The 04 GTO sucks ( styling wise ) Ford and Dodge are kicking the ***** out of the Big Guy. With the new Mustang, GT, and next gen Cobra coming out, as well as the Dodge Magnum, and future Charger, even the new 300 looks tough, GM looks real bad. Even the imports and Europeans and leaving the General in the dust ( Z350, WRX, RX8, BMW Z4, M3, 6 series, etc, etc ) what we do. I would actually consider a new stang for my next ride ( a first for me ) I have bought nothing but GM products since I was 15 ( i'm 31 now ) and I am VERY sadened by the direction they are going in. Are there sunnier skies ahead? Well please let us know. Why all the secrecy? Give us a hint. Please!!!!! I'm not a Detroit insider so maybe I'm wasting my time with this rant, but I don't see anything out there for the muscle car fan. Do you expect me to believe the Caddy CTS-V is a car guys car... Please!!!

Well I think it is time to do something about it. I propose a petition that will end up on some pencil pushers desk that will get his attention. With all the money we spend on our passion ( new cars, aftermarket goodies ) our concerns are nothing to laugh at. Hit them where it hurts, the wallet. I'm sure if all the people on this board expressed their intention on buying a Non-GM vehicle as their next purchase, they would pay attention!!!! Where is the Camaro? Where is the Firebird? Where is the next head turning outside the box GM product. All of us feel that their car is an extension of their personalty. We all want to feel alittle special driving down the road. We all want to stand out alittle at the stop light. We are the ones who have placed such icons as the Vette, GTO, Camaro, Firebird in the very fabric of America, not the commuter. "Gee let me see, Hey honey should we get the LS1 SS Camaro with 330 hp, or the minivan", I DON"T THINK SO!!!!

We are in very dark times, and we must let the corporate bean counters who have never known the pleasure of an open-headered Big Block screaming at 6000 rpm and 140 mph know that we are not pleased at all.
:crying:

cjhutch
09-28-2004, 07:41 PM
Rob, I feel your pain, but honestly I could care less. My firebird is the only GM product in my household. I do have to say I'm thinking about buying a Solstice when they come out and supercharging it. Now before you go all buckwild on me just listen. I do believe that loyalty is a good thing, but in this day and age if you're looking for something in particular there is a car for you. For the family guy who has to carry around kids and all their stuff, but still wants some power under his foot there's the Dodge Magnum. For the person who wants to just cruise around and enjoy luxury there are countless number of cars. For the person who doesn't have a boatload of money but still wants a cool looking car there's the PT Cruiser. For the working man who needs to carry his hardware during the week and tow on the weekends there's the Ford Lightning. I think you catch my drift. What I'm saying is if you don't like what one automaker is doing go to another. By all means I still think you should express your displeasure with GM, but I wouldn't wait for a reply if I were you. Automakers are searching for efficency and adaptable platforms and it's going to be that way for a long time. I have a lot more to say on this subject, but I'll leave space for others to make their replies. In closing I would like to say that if people wouldn't bash everything that comes out great things can happen(ie.Subaru WRX) .

zbugger
09-28-2004, 07:50 PM
You know, I was wondering the same thing for a little while. Then, I came to look at what the rest of GM is doing. Look at Saturn. They are attacking the import market with the Redline series. Look at Caddilac. They are going extreme on the performance scene attacking the european scene. I love the CTS-V, and they seem to be just getting started. Oh the insanity!!!! I think they finally started to spread it around. I think the Chevrolet brand managers need to get into a meeting to catch back up. And I don't mean just sticking SS badges on everything. They need to back up the image.

cjhutch
09-28-2004, 08:00 PM
Allen, do you know when the Saturn Redline coupe is coming out. I want to modify a compact car soooo bad.

socalfandabodys
09-28-2004, 08:04 PM
The cts v is not a car guys car. That thing is bad ass. Its got all the pro touring stuff.
17 inch wheels
14 inch brakes
400 horsepower
6 speed
awesome seats
good looks
as far as saturn goes. very good around town car. I drive my daughters l300 and that thing is a little bat out of hell. It beats the v-6 mustangs

rob07002
09-28-2004, 08:14 PM
cj, and socal - you guys are missing the point. I understand what you're saying but, if your a Ford guy then you have tons of choices for you depending on your preference and you don't have to go to another company. Like muscle cars - buy the Mustang, want something more exotic - get the GT, feel the need to be noticed - get the Cobra, got kids - buy a Windstar, etc, etc. Same goes for Dodge guys. What does a GM guy have...... a $50k Vette or $60k+ CTS-V. As for a saturn, your right it probably will hold its own against the imports but NONE of these are modern muscle..... You will be able to get a Mustang for under $30k and smile all day long....

Ralph LoGrasso
09-28-2004, 08:42 PM
The Camaro is coming back in '07. The firebird "has had its day", according to the press :(. The funny thing is the 4th Gen LS1 SS will still pretty much take down any car that you've mentioned, the only cars on your list that will take it (non-gm) are the '03 Cobra, and some of those bmws, but think about how much more they cost. The '05 GTO is getting the LS2, and puts down about 350 to the wheels. The new stang looks okay to me, the concept was much better, but they're not all that fast. I saw a vid of a 1/4 mile run, and it was in the mid-high 13s, I'm sure others have seen the vid, it was all over the web(I think i saw it on ls1tech). The new Mustang is nice though, but the original concept was just plain awesome. Hopefully GM will start putting out some more performance oriented vehicles.

DCx
09-28-2004, 08:56 PM
I have a 01 cobra and it is bad ass! I love the seats! Ford kinda screwed up in the low end torque depot on this car but thats ok, dont think you will pass me when I wind out 3rd gear. Is it odd that I can take second to 75mph at 7100rpm then max third out at almost 130? Ran a 13.6 with a cat back and the car only set me back 19,000. Been driving the heck out of it and it doesnt even have 30,000 on the ticker. Id say ford has a good thing going for them. Look at the after market for these cars! copare that to the LT1 and Ls1 aftermarket. The main draw back to the modular motor i think is the lack of push rod simplicity. You gotta buy 2 or 4 cams not much room for aftermarket heads and stroker kits kinda suck, but you can change that with a blower. Seems like there are more companies making superchargers for the mustang then anything else. All in all I am a mustang guy. I had an Lt1 camaro and it sounded like a work truck with the $500 borla cat back I put on it. Buddy of mine has an 04 GT with flowmasters and it is sweet! loud and deep. Also my cobras got indipendent rear, 13 inch brakes, 17" wheels and awesome seats. I just feel like GM is screwing up. Ill be first in line to test drive a new stang. That White one on the show looked sweet huh? dreaming of a new white mustang.... :seizure:

Ralph LoGrasso
09-28-2004, 09:02 PM
DCx, I didnt meant to start a bench racing session here, I was commenting on the cars that Rob listed in his post. I'm not saying any one car is better than the next, just commenting on late model GM performance.

He did not list an '01 Cobra in his post. My friend has a '98 and it's an awesome car, but the shifter posistion is weird, it's too far forward. Other than that, great car. In fact, I almost bought a '99 Cobra a few years back.

In reguards to the 4th gen LS1 SS taking out almost anything on that list, I was talking in reguards to 1/4 mile performance, which seems to be the craze with new cars these days. Bone stock '02 SS or WS6 with a really good driver can turn a 12.9 ET. 13.1-13.5ish is more the norm from what I've read though.

130mph from 3rd gear is pretty impressive.

DanT69
09-28-2004, 09:47 PM
I may be in the minority but I have similar feelings about almost all new cars, except for several I could never dream of affording (GT40 and the new C6 'Vette) the auto makers right now have virtually nothing I really want . Some make cars I can appreciate but would never pay money to own one. Especially the American auto makers which I blame the lack of any worthy cars coming from the big three on SUVs and the focus on them for sometime now. Oh well, I still have my vintage iron and maybe someday I can build myself a "new" car with the new reproduction bodies and be driving a "new" hemi cuda (with the new 5.7l Hemi).

68RallySport
09-28-2004, 11:54 PM
Running a 13.6 your mudstain wont keep up!!!

rob07002
09-29-2004, 05:39 AM
Ralph, in response to your reply. I completely agree that an LS1 SS would probably spank most of the cars I mentioned, I am not questioning GM's drivtrain division, the stuff they are coming out with is truly inspiring. However, do we all forget what a muscle car is " a compact-midsize rear wheel car with powerful engine and bulletproof tranny connected to a posi. Minimal creature comfort and maybe a cool sound system. Meaning ALL BUSINESS!!!!" Can you confirm the return of the Camaro, what will it look like? I'll tell you this if Chevy throws an LS2 and T56 into a freakin saturn, slap on some Camaro badges and tells us here is the new Camaro now BUY, BUY , BUY.... They have lost me forever. Same goes for the 05 GTO. Its not just about performance, its about the entire package, Styling, performance, etc, etc. There is nothing fresh in the GM pipeline, Where are the next gen Harley Earls, Jim Wagners....there over at Ford and Dodge thats where. There needs to be a real shakeup at the executive level over at the General. I feel the current GM performance cars as far as styling and uniqueness are an insult to my intelligence. DON"T SLAP SS BADGES ON A FREAKIN GROCERY GETTER AND TELL ME ITS MODERN MUSCLE!!!! In closing maybe the next gen muscle will be homegrown, with the repop Camaro bodies out and others to come, I'll be first in line to buy a NEW 69 Camaro....and if the money starts shifting in that direction, well I think the General will get the hint. Watch them panic then

XcYZ
09-29-2004, 06:27 AM
The CTS-V is not a car guys car? Wanna explain that one to me?

SHANE 73Z
09-29-2004, 06:32 AM
I was at the local Chevrolet dealership the other day checking out a new Colorado. When the sales manager proceeded to inform me that the best deal they could work would cost me an extra $100 a month over what I wanted to pay, he asked me if I would be interested in a different (ie less expensive) vehicle. I asked him if he was talking about the 2 Cavaliers out front with the stupid a$$ body kits and chrome wheels..............

I proceeded to tell him VERY loudly what I thought of GMs current line up of vehicles and that the only way they were going to sell me anything other than a truck was if they would sell me a vette for $400 a month.

Im still driving my Dakota.....................

SHANE 73Z
09-29-2004, 06:41 AM
XCYZ,

The CTS-V is a car guys car. But how many twenty-something car guys can afford a 60K car? Maybe if I move back in with my parents and sell a kidney, I can scrounge up a down payment.

I think the price range being discussed here is the 25K-35K. What does GM have to offer there? Hell the lame-a$$ Silverado SS was 40K, the GTO is OK if you want it every option and since when does a manual tranny command a $900 premium over the automatic model????? When GM thinks we are stupid enough to pay for it!

Shane

rob07002
09-29-2004, 06:46 AM
Scott, the Caddy CTS-V is not a car guys car! and I'll explain.

1) How many hard working modest car enthusiasts can afford to plunk down $60k+ on a car?

2) Was a Caddy ever a muscle car?

3) Do you need DVD/Navigation/heated seats/ Blah Blah Blah, to have an enjoyable driving experience?

4) The new Bently has over 500 hp, does that make it a muscle car too?

Steve Chryssos
09-29-2004, 07:57 AM
Rob,
Your complaints are well founded. The SSR provides a window into GM's decision making process. It's a car/truck thingie that does nothing well. Impotent as a hot rod and unsuitable as a hauler. Too little too late. Somehow this impractical underachiever made it to production. You wonder what the decision makers were thinking: "Okay...This is what we're gonna do. Let's kill the F-Body and release the SSR..." :rolleyes5 Good idea!

I will say that I applaud GM for releasing the GTO. The car gives me hope that GM can think outside the box. You gotta admit--Like it or not, GM got creative with the Holden deal. Furthermore, I fully expect to see some cool looking, modified GTO's at SEMA this year. In fact, if I like the mods enough, I will take my wallet out. Cheap, leftover GTO's are easy to find.
/Steevo

XcYZ
09-29-2004, 08:06 AM
LOL, you guys are funny. So if the CTS-V doesn't fit your ideas of a true car guys car, does a pickup, a blazer, or a late model car make a Pro-Touring car? I mean, after all, we are talking pre-conceieved notions of cars that fit labels and labels that fit cars.

Fluid Power
09-29-2004, 08:39 AM
Shane,

The reason they (GM) charges more for manual tranny's is simple economics. Nobody buys them. For example, Lets say GM is building 20,000 GTOs for 05. The statistical data shows 85% of those cars will be bought with auto trannys the remaining 15% will be sold as manuals. They know this because of the incredible amount of data and information that is gathered, researched and studied. GM buys 17,000 automatic transmissions (85% of 20000) and 3000 manual ones. Guess which one is more expensive to buy? If you picked manual trannys, you now understand basic supply/demand. It is not a big conspiracy theory as you might believe, just simple business. Corvettes are priced the same way. The old dudes who buy those don't want to row the gears.

The thing that really gets me in these discussions are that we are the minority in the vast ocean of the car world. Meaning that most people can give a crap about cars. To them it is just a mode of transportation. People buy those cars with SS badges because they don't care that it is not what it once stood for. While it offends me and others (in this group especially) most don't care. While it would be nice to have GM put a new camaro or redesigned GTO to do battle with the mustangs I have to believe that the largest automotive company in the world probably has a grip on things.....

Darren

Ralph LoGrasso
09-29-2004, 08:41 AM
Rob,

I can't confirm what the Camaro will look like in '07, I got my info from an article in PHR. There are a few renderings floating around the net that are supposidly very close to what it'll look like, and I really hope so, because the renderings are nice.

Little Bob
09-29-2004, 09:07 AM
As a currant GTO (1968) owner. I would like to say that I was disapointed with the looks and styling of the car. But I'm just glad to see it back in the market. I also think GM was looking for a direction to go with the car and whats a better way to do that. Than let the public do the designing for them. Or at least get some fresh ideas for free. They where probally just trying to do a soft introduction for the car. They probally wanted to see the public opinions before dumping millions of dollars into a total redesign. As far as the price goes, the original GTO's where priced higher than a lot of other muscle car of that erra. So I think for the price, you get a lot of car. It would be nice to see the muscle cars come back. But with the import craze being so strong. I think companies are going to focus on them first before anything.

Things that would be cool for the new GTO
1. Paddel shifter
2. Super Charged or Turbocharger
3. True duel exhaust
4. Convertable
5. Viper sized tires (front and back)
6. Breaking capability like a Porsche
7. True Ram Air
8. A Judge option

SHANE 73Z
09-29-2004, 09:35 AM
Fluid Power,

Nice try, on my last trip to the dealership I believe on just about every vehicle I looked at had a thousand dollar premium for an automatic transmission..............

As for the General having a grip on things, I have to disagree. The biggest rage to hit in my area (snowbelt) lately is the new rear drive DC (magnum, 300) cars. If people want/need the security of an entirely front wheel drive line-up of (GM) cars, why the sudden surge of sales for cars that are rear drive??? Why because style will sell a car even over practicality as long as you get it right. As long as GM continues to try to cram rental cars down our throat you will be hard pressed to sway my opinion..............

Shane

rob07002
09-29-2004, 09:38 AM
What I'm trying to say is there are no options for a guy/girl looking to spend $30 - 35k for a modestly performing, cool looking, fun driving car. We have been forced to accept GM's current lineup or go elsewhere. I'm sure the CTS-V will be a real groundbreaking car but its in a totally different catagory aimed at the Beamers and Benz. The whool has been pulled over our eyes and its insulting.

Try this: Walk into a GM dealership and ask to buy a 2005 Camaro/Firebird, "I'm sorry sir but we don't make those anymore but, how about this Cavalier SS" just laugh and ask diections to the nearest Ford dealer. If dealers start to complain enough then maybe the execs in Detroit will get the picture.

Don't underestimate the power we actually have, the enthusiast/performance car marketplace is a MULTI-Billion $ a year industry, new cars sales, aftermarket, special vehicles, etc.

What would happen if a petition with 100,000 signatures woundup on Robert Lutz's desk, think he would wake up from his coma???

Alittle info on Robert Lutz:
President GM North America
President Product Developement
Salary $6.78+ million(w/o bonus)
72 years old

I don't know about you but I don't want my Grandpa telling me whats cool. Whats the last innovative thing old Bob has developed, power steering. When the last time Bob has even driven a car?? Can you say chuffeur(spell check please)

Steve Chryssos
09-29-2004, 09:41 AM
I'm with LittleBob. I'm willing to pay for performance capability. On the other hand, A supercharged GTO witth 335's that outbrakes a Porsche would cost what? $50K? $60K? I'm all for it but the average enthusiast would shun such a product soley on its pricetag.

And that's part of the problem with the target audience. They want it all, but they don't want to pay to play. GM CAN give us what we want--but we can't complain when it comes with a $35K or higher pricetag. There's just no way to deliver the modern day equivalent of a 69 Z28 for $20K. Ain't gonna happen.

How many of us will welcome a kick-a$$ 2007 F-Body if it costs $30K plus?

Q ship
09-29-2004, 10:06 AM
I won't try to argue about Chevy's current line up, for the RWD enthusiast it is indeed slim. Trucks are what Chevy is all about now, and why not? The public has voted with their checkbooks. GM is in business to MAKE MONEY guys. The GTO isn't selling well at all, after everyone said "yeah we want RWD muscle". In this day you can't have a sales loser in the lineup. rob07002, a couple things you said stick in my craw though.


Scott, the Caddy CTS-V is not a car guys car! and I'll explain.

1) How many hard working modest car enthusiasts can afford to plunk down $60k+ on a car?
I never knew there was a salary cap on being a "car guy", I'll bet some of the members here will be surprised to hear this. So if someone sinks 75 large into a early car, are they not "car guys" either? If I can afford a CTS-V and choose to buy one, how am i NOT a "car guy"?


2) Was a Caddy ever a muscle car?
If you knew some history, you would know that in the '50's Caddy was involved in motorsports. Sorry if that doesn't meet your narrow definition of "muscle car".


3) Do you need DVD/Navigation/heated seats/ Blah Blah Blah, to have an enjoyable driving experience?
Of course not-would it be nice if "stripped" cars were offered? Yeah, but how many would sell? Mitsu is offering stripped Evo's and they aren't moving.


4) The new Bently has over 500 hp, does that make it a muscle car too?
No, but does that mean it isn't a pretty cool car? I can't afford it, doesn't mean I want to rank on it.

I really wish we could get away from categorizing our hobby. We have to put labels on things, and then decide that those in "this group" are somehow inferior or not as pure. It's as stale now as the old Ford vs Chevy thing. I like 'em all.

Q ship
09-29-2004, 10:10 AM
Alittle info on Robert Lutz:
President GM North America
President Product Developement
Salary $6.78+ million(w/o bonus)
72 years old

I don't know about you but I don't want my Grandpa telling me whats cool. Whats the last innovative thing old Bob has developed, power steering. When the last time Bob has even driven a car?? Can you say chuffeur(spell check please)
WOW. Dude, you are so out of touch. Do a little research on Bob Lutz, OK? You sure have a narrow view of things. I feel sorry for you, you're missing a lot.

Little Bob
09-29-2004, 10:18 AM
I would pay that in heart beat. I think in a couple of years GM will catch up to the rest of manufactures. I think they will do just like they did in the previous years. They will blend all the cars together. The interchangability will be greater by then. Which will drive the prices down. Or make them more competitive with other manufacturers. I mean look at the Chevelle and GTO of the 60's and 70's. Basically the same car with a differant shell. Most of the parts on those cars are the same.

Rob,
I see your point. But I think a petition is not the answer. If you want to make yourself heard. Stop buying GM products all together. Because in this world. The only that gets peoples attention is the all mighty dollar. If GM sales go down, they will have no choice but to make chages. Look at what Disney is doing to Eisner. Nothing hurts more than empty wallet. At 72 he's probally just waiting for wright moment to retire. Thats why you see Sunfires and other GM products with flashey ground affects and wheels. Thats whats making them money at this point and time. The import scene is bigger than the muscle car scene ever was. Any car being made can be modified and raced. I mean I used to blow BMW M3's off the track with my Plymouth Neon Acr 4 cylinder. So lets hope that the manufacturers are listening and reading before it's to late. I think the release of the GTO was an eye opener for GM. If you want to know more. Go to this site http://forums.performanceyears.com/6/ubb.x?a=frm&s=7286011111&f=278600434 and see what is being said. I'm truley not paying attention to anything new, because I'm spending all of my time and efforts on my GTO. I think we all need to try harder to preserve the old cars. Emissions are goingto be the down fall of our hobby.

68RallySport
09-29-2004, 10:25 AM
Caddy not a muscle car!!!Ok maybe but come on caddy 500! Ill say it again CADDY 500!!!!

rob07002
09-29-2004, 10:34 AM
Sorry Q, but I'll respectfully disagree with you:
1)I know I don't speak for all, or any on this board for that matter but, most of us don't have an endless supply of disposable income. Spending $75k on your car doesn't make you a non carguy, just a carguy with money GETIT. Go buy the CTS-V, will I respect you less no!

2) I don't think you know your history Q, According to most auto historians, the muscle car era started with the 64 GTO not a 50's caddy

3) Who cares about stipped down evo's

4) I'm not bashing the Bently just pointing out hp doesn't automatically = muscle car.

As far as Bob, your right I don't know much about him however, I believe what I see and I see a bland, uninspiring, product line. Bob shouldn't rest on his laurels he is after all Head of product development, not the product museum.
I feel sorry for you if you believe GM has your customer satisfaction at all in their minds

Little Bob
09-29-2004, 10:40 AM
Caddy not a muscle car!!!Ok maybe but come on caddy 500! Ill say it again CADDY 500!!!!

Some wouldn't consider the Chrysler 300M a car guys car either, but in the 50's those cars where very competitive on the NASCAR ciruit. Times change and so do cars. I've seen those Caddies on track and they do have good balance and performance. I wouldn't mind test driving one. I think we need to look at what the Muscle definition was. I found this site with a break-down of cars. Check out the list. I think the Caddie would be considered a Personal Luxury Car. Let the cars performance speak for them selves.

The Site http://www.musclecarclub.com/musclecars/general/musclecars-definition.shtml

Steve Chryssos
09-29-2004, 11:52 AM
Let's not go bouncing off the rev limiters boys!!

Rob's entitled to his frustration. He is GM loyal and is disappointed that cars like the Mustang, Magnum wagon, 300 are not GM products.

You're not alone Rob. Some of us are just over it. My last three new vehicle purchases have been non GM. Dodge Dakota Quad Cab 2wd V8, Audi TT, Hemi Ram Quad Cab 2wd) Go ahead and buy that 05 Mustang or Magnum wagon. That's the best way to get GM's attention. From there, GM needs to learn how to bring products to market more quickly. Not two months after buying my Hemi Ram, GM releases quad cab Silverados Oh well, too late!
If I were not moving across the country, I would have already picked up a 300. Now I'll wait til after SEMA to make a decision.

Steve Chryssos
09-29-2004, 11:59 AM
As for Bob Lutz, he's a cool dude. He's part of the solution--not the problem. Here's a little background:
He has a *****in 70 AAR 'cuda pro-touring car. He's considered by many to have turned Chrysler around from the (barf) Iacocca K-car days. There's a good book called Guts by Bob Lutz. It's good reading. At Chrysler, Lutz was large and in charge. But at GM, he's just another employee swimming upstream against the beaurocracy.

Steve Chryssos
09-29-2004, 12:02 PM
What's the deal here? I can't say *****in? You can't have conversation about hot rods without the word *****in!! What other words are censored? How bout ass, piss **** damn. Let' see what happens. Fartknocker!! :wasntme:

68RallySport
09-29-2004, 12:08 PM
"Vehicle:
Chevrolet Camaro Yes Pony car Only SS and Z28 models are considered muscle cars " From the link on the second page of the thread...

I already dont agree with that list! it has to be an SS or a Z28 to be a real muscle car :rotfl: :lol:

David

Little Bob
09-29-2004, 12:15 PM
"Vehicle:
Chevrolet Camaro Yes Pony car Only SS and Z28 models are considered muscle cars " From the link on the second page of the thread...

I already dont agree with that list! it has to be an SS or a Z28 to be a real muscle car :rotfl: :lol:

David

Well think about it, what made those cars differant? In those days all cars had V8's and four speeds. What made those cars where the special features. Is'nt that what a Muscle Car is? Otherwise every car made is those day would be considered a Muscle Car.

rob07002
09-29-2004, 12:33 PM
I don't want to get sidetracked here. I don't want to argue the definition of a muscle car or what cars fit into that catagory we'll be here all day. My opinions expressed here come out of perhaps jealousy that the 05 Mustangs will be roling out and there's nothing for me, and I don't think I'm alone. Call it sheetmetal envy if you will but, we don't have to sit by and accept the fact that GM knows what its doing. Take a risk GM perhaps you'll be pleasantly surprised. Yes the GTO didn't do well this year, because we are smarter than they think and voted with our wallets. I too was very excited to hear about the new Goat, until I saw it. I do believe GM's engneering is far superior to the others(Ford/Dodge),but as far as putting into a stylish package.... Very Weak. So maybe I'll clarify my remarks alittle, GM Drivetain - Good, GM styling - BAD

Little Bob
09-29-2004, 12:40 PM
I don't want to get sidetracked here. I don't want to argue the definition of a muscle car or what cars fit into that catagory we'll be here all day. My opinions expressed here come out of perhaps jealousy that the 05 Mustangs will be roling out and there's nothing for me, and I don't think I'm alone. Call it sheetmetal envy if you will but, we don't have to sit by and accept the fact that GM knows what its doing. Take a risk GM perhaps you'll be pleasantly surprised. Yes the GTO didn't do well this year, because we are smarter than they think and voted with our wallets. I too was very excited to hear about the new Goat, until I saw it. I do believe GM's engneering is far superior to the others(Ford/Dodge),but as far as putting into a stylish package.... Very Weak. So maybe I'll clarify my remarks alittle, GM Drivetain - Good, GM styling - BAD

You got that rite. :cheers:

Ralph LoGrasso
09-29-2004, 12:42 PM
As a currant GTO (1968) owner. I would like to say that I was disapointed with the looks and styling of the car. But I'm just glad to see it back in the market. I also think GM was looking for a direction to go with the car and whats a better way to do that. Than let the public do the designing for them. Or at least get some fresh ideas for free. They where probally just trying to do a soft introduction for the car. They probally wanted to see the public opinions before dumping millions of dollars into a total redesign. As far as the price goes, the original GTO's where priced higher than a lot of other muscle car of that erra. So I think for the price, you get a lot of car. It would be nice to see the muscle cars come back. But with the import craze being so strong. I think companies are going to focus on them first before anything.

Things that would be cool for the new GTO
1. Paddel shifter
2. Super Charged or Turbocharger
3. True duel exhaust
4. Convertable
5. Viper sized tires (front and back)
6. Breaking capability like a Porsche
7. True Ram Air
8. A Judge option

The current GTO has true dual exhaust, it just exits out of one side on the '04s, but I'm pretty sure this has been changed for '05. I'd bet you will see a judge option soon, and the '05 also has a ram air looking hood, but I'm not sure if it's true ram air. I agree Viper sized tires would be great, maybe on the next model. Porsche braking capability = $$$ plain and simple, so does a supercharger. If they were to strap on a supercharger on an '05 GTO, the power would be ridiculous, I'm sure they'd have a ton of trouble with the warranty issues, because people would constantly be breaking things. The '05 puts down about 350 to the wheels(400 at the crank), add even a modest 6 or 7psi to that, and the power is upped significantly. However, I've heard of dealers installing superchargers as Dealer installed options, so they're still covered by warranty. I only heard of them doing this on '04s, to move them though, since the '05s have an increase of about 50hp.

Ralph LoGrasso
09-29-2004, 12:51 PM
Here are a few things off the top of my head that would be nice for GM to do:

- Bring back the Camaro AND firebird in '07. Offer a supercharged SS version to compete with the Cobras.
- Release a 2008 Chevelle, and redesign the GTO for '08. Let most parts be interchangable, offer SS and Judge models with larger displacement engines, or possibly superchargers.
- Offer the Silverado SS in a regular cab, supercharge engine to compete with SRT10 rams and the new lightnings coming out
- Bring back the 2 door Tahoe
- Rename the Cobalt SS with something other than SS
- Convert the Monte and Impalas back to RWD, or atleast the SS models
- Stop production on a few of the current truck models, I think the Blazer, Trailblazer, Tahoe, and Surburban are sufficent. No need for the equinox, trailblazer, and blazer. pick one or two, and use the saved funding in car development.

Pro-touring towncar
09-29-2004, 01:27 PM
I grew up with GM owning 71 Buick Skylark, A 70 GS Stage 1 a 75 century indy pace car and a 70 GTO. Since my wifes dad worked at the Lincoln assy plant. I stated getting into Fords and owned many since the GMs.

But Todays GMs have zero for styling. How many cars can be made out of the Cavalier chassis, the malibu, Etc. That is what Ford has got going is they have one or two of the same vehicle, While GM has a half dozen. The Caddy Cimmoron( and what ever the new one is) is just a cavilier with leather seats.
Gm stupidily axed the F-body to leave the vette being the only RWD car until the caddy CTS? came out. leaving the younger buyers to go elseway to find perfomance RWD cars, namely Ford. Even the V-6 mustang can be built. You can get anything for a mustang. The mustang has atleast 3 magizines for it while the F-body has none. Grant it you have Hi- po chevy but I am talking pure F-body magizines.
Chrysler has gone back to offering RWD cars when people thought they would only offer FWD. I like the styling of the 300.

GM has the misconception that people what FWD for bad weather, Take a look at most of the cars sold in europe where they have more bad weather that in the states, most are big RWD cars. BMW, Mercedies, even the all the supercars are RWD.

Tim

ScotI
09-29-2004, 01:35 PM
.... If they were to strap on a supercharger on an '05 GTO, the power would be ridiculous, I'm sure they'd have a ton of trouble with the warranty issues, because people would constantly be breaking things. The '05 puts down about 350 to the wheels(400 at the crank), add even a modest 6 or 7psi to that, and the power is upped significantly. However, I've heard of dealers installing superchargers as Dealer installed options, so they're still covered by warranty. I only heard of them doing this on '04s, to move them though, since the '05s have an increase of about 50hp.

I read in last months 'Pontiac Perf' mag that w/a modified vette Magnuson(sp?) blower, the GTO put down 415 to the wheels w/less than 7psi of boost. This was a proto-type kit being tweaked for production & the only other mod was a cat-back exhaust.

Q ship
09-29-2004, 01:54 PM
You're not alone Rob. Some of us are just over it.
That's it exactly. Rob, I don't disagree on the base of your arguement, GM is missing the boat on affordable RWD performance. I've long since given up, since the ImpalaSS got canned. I just didn't care for the tangents you were taking. My way of thinking is I will take an older car and fix it up the way I want it to be, with the bonus of no new car payments or OBD-II watchdogs.

Oh, and Lutz is a serious car guy-look behind the history of the Viper. Chevy is a HUGE company, it takes a long time to turn things around. I just don't care.

nancejd
09-29-2004, 04:53 PM
I agree that a lot of people feel frustration with the General. The challenge they face is to build a car that they can sell 150,000 units of, that will still appeal to the masses. The fourth-gen Camaro is an awesome car, but since I drive mine every day, I can tell you that the compromises you have to make, most people won't put up with. What GM really needs to be able to do is offer the base model car with the big engine and breaks. Why do I need leather? HUD? IRS? Leave that crap out, or offer it as options for people who want to pay for it. The other thing GM needs to do is ditch the idea that the Vette has to be the king of their own hill in every category. Why not let the Camaro make more power, the vette should still be able to outhandle it? The vette for the most part is an old farts car, the people who buy them, buy them for image alone, not to really drive it. A lot of people who bought Camaro and Firebirds drove the wheels off of them. I'm waiting to see what happens in '07, hopefully it is something that gives me faith in GM again.

cjhutch
09-29-2004, 06:14 PM
For those of you posting about the GTO and other GM cars that could use superchargers and better braking let us not forget that they will never produce something that outpowers their coveted Corvette. Here's a little excerpt that further proves what I'm trying to say.

Quote:

"GMMG installed the LS6 engine straight up--no mods. The hood numbers indicate 400 horses, whereas in the Vette, the same engine is rated at 405. "We were reminded of, and cognizant of, the Corvette's place on GM's performance ladder," says Murphy.

The numbers are academic, really, as the Firebird has put down 370 horses to the rear wheels on a chassis dyno. According to our calculator, that means it's making closer to 440 horses at the flywheel. We put in some time behind the wheel of this rare Bird, and it certainly feels like more than 400 horses, that's for sure."

This is a quote from High Performance Pontiac magazine about a special edition Firebird that was built by GMMG. You can read the complete article here (http://highperformancepontiac.com/features/0312pon_bird/). Now I'm not saying that this would have been a production car, but just trying to show you guys where the mindset is at GM. GM=Chevy, and if it doesn't have a Chevy badge it gets treated like a stepchild. How else do you explain the lack of marketing and advertising for the new GTO, but they're already including the Cobalt in ads with the Corvette.

JV69z/28
09-29-2004, 06:18 PM
Just have to add a couple of comments about the Caddy CTS-V. I don't think it's so terrible for GM to build a 400+ HP - manual trans - 18" wheels - "big" brake - RWD - 50K - Caddy. It has to be good for the rest of the product line. I worked for a Caddy dealer and rode in a pre-production "mule" and drove a production model. I think if you had the chance for some seat time you would be impressed. I'm not looking to fire anybody up - just bring up some positive things about GM building a car like that. It has to have some trickle down effect. Maybe?

nancejd
09-29-2004, 06:40 PM
I'd love to have a CTS-V, but oh man the payments! For GM to be competetive in the pony car market they need to build something that blows the doors off of just about anything on the road and sell it for less than $30K. Convertables can be more, want leather, OK, that costs extra, etc. I don't care if they want to change the sticker horsepower on the car relative to the Corvette, but why not put the top of the line engine in the Camaro? They could have put the LS6 in the 4th gen from the factory, but didn't......, missed opportunity.

In the end though, for GM to be successful, they need to figure out a way to sell a ton of v6 cars to women. If they can't do that, the 5th gen won't be around long.

David Pozzi
09-29-2004, 07:48 PM
James,
I think you nailed it, the car would need to be viable as a run around town car, more like the current Mustang, more like the Original Camaro.
Long doors and low seat height are disadvantages for the Camaro. Sure I like the swoopy design once I'm in the car, but that's not as user friendly a design for daily use.

On the other side, the new Mustang front end looks very very tall to me, look at it head-on, and there is this huge front "mouth" comi'n at me!!! You can see too much of the radiator behind the grille.
David

MuscleRodz
09-29-2004, 09:01 PM
After reading the explosion in ththis thread, I'll add my .02. I think Ford finally got the new generation Mustang right especially after watching the factory race car being built on TV a couple of nights ago. It took them three times to get the styling right IMO. (95,00,05). If history repeats itself like it did in 64 (mustang)and 67 (camaro), a good 5th gen Camaro would be on track for 07 or 08.

I agree about the availability of a stripped down hot rod. Why not bring back the true 1LE option of the 90's. big brakes, A/C delete, radio delete, a showroom racecar. I totally agree with James and David, if you can't sell the V6's to the masses, then you deliver low production racecars to the minorities (us included).

Mike

Serpa69
09-30-2004, 04:38 AM
I will never drive a blue oval again I had one, it was the hardest thing to work on, and I never got the results that I expected. I respect that ford has the commitment to still build a mustang, It will aid in younger people thinking my 69 Camaro is one. I am the only one in my immediate family that drives a GM product. I am very angry that there is no real car that gets my blood pumping when I go to the Chevrolet dealer. I know that they will come out with something, but I am sick of waiting. I will tell you that it was better that they got rid of the camaro than disgracing it with a only slightly modified body that was to big and still not selling car. If Chevy comes out with a smaller bad A&& camaro then I will be stoked. I would almost consider selling my 69 to buy one

rob07002
09-30-2004, 06:30 AM
Well I must say I'm very happy with the exchange of ideas. Ralph your ideas for a new GM are right on the money. And now introducing RALPH LoGrasso, new President of product development!!!!! YA!!! Seriously some of the things you mentioned or just what the doctor ordered.
Qship I understand you may not care but, I do, and I don't give up or sit idly by and watch something I care about go in the dumper. Hence the rallying call. If Bob Lutz is sooooo cool and such a car guy then he should be ashamed about the current state of GM's lineup and near future plans. This problem is very common when executives reach a certain level of success, they don't know when its time to step down. I'm sure Bob in his heyday, was a miricle worker and had some real cutting edge stuff but, someone needs to right the ship, take charge, kick a$$, take names, and reestablish GM as a performance and styling leader. The loyalists deserve that much. Go on GM's website and check out the concept car section, I promise you'll be very disappointed, now check out Ford and Dodge's, it really says it all!

BAD6SPD
09-30-2004, 07:55 AM
Rob, You really need to change your screen name to "Chicken Little"...because the "sky is falling" is pretty ridiculous...

I am just going to repost something I posted on another Camaro site, as it is still relevant, and I get tired of retyping posts over and over because inevitably, someone comes out "GM Sucks" "They don't care about enthusiasts" "Noone can afford thier best performing cars" Blah Blah Blah......

Boy, you guys provide some great entertainment.....Everyone thinks GM has completely turned their back on the enthusiasts? Are you kidding me? Why don't you try and open your eyes a little and get off of the bandwagon...GM is making more performance cars today that they have in the last 30 years!....Are they all affordable to everyone? No, I guess that's what makes some of them exclusive...Are all of the RWD? No, The Impala SS, the Grand Prix GTP CompG, are both FWD, and offer pretty decent performance for the money...240hp, and 260hp respectively, Dennis mentioned the CTS-V, at 400hp, the SSR at 300hp, the XLR at 320, The XLR-V should come in around 450hp, the C6 is 400,the Z06 will be around 500+, the Silverado SS 325hp and the soon to come Trailblazer SS at 400hp.and then we come to the GTO...The car everyone loves to hate..Let's see, people ***** when GM kills the antiquated F-Car...which, when in SS or T/A trim, came in around 30-35K.....So GM comes out with a FAR superior RWD/350hpLS1/6Speed replacement for 33Kbut because it doesn't look like a '66 GTO it gets ragged to no end, even though many of the people making the comments most likely have NOT driven one, and quite possibly, have never seen it in person...The car completely surpasses the old F-Body in every category, Interior, Performance, Chassis etc...The styling is subjective, but remember it is only a stop-gap until the new version arrives..again, people complain no matter what GM makes....I realize the majority of people can't afford any of the aforementioned cars, me included. But there are alternatives, You want a performance car for 20K that is fun to drive, has decent power, and can handle extremely well? GM offers the ION Redline, with a S/C Ecotec, or the soon to be released Cobalt SS, with the same 200HP S/C Ecotec, and guess what, Mark Stielow did the suspension/ride/handling development on both of those vehicles...not to mention the MY06 Solstice that will be available next year.....I have seen several of them so far, and they are a phenomenal design.

The GM vs. Ford argument.....Everyone complains that GM doesn't do a retro Camaro....This I find interesting.....Everyone is sweet on Ford for doing a retro Mustang, The car looks pretty good to me...but do you realize that Retro is NOT a successful long term strategy especially for such a mass market car as the Mustang, and in my opinion, a year or 2 down the road, Ford will be in real trouble with the car....Look at what is out there now..

The VW Bug: Great for 2 years-No dead in the water
The Ford T-Bird: Once the first on the blockers got theirs sales plummeted - Being Canceled
The PT Cruiser - Great for 2 years -Too little to late with the convert - Sales dismal.

Hell, I even think the SSR is only going to go 2-3 years max....but that was only going to be a limited production niche vehicle anyway...

Ford on the other hand has bet the farm on the retro design of the Mustang....which I think will do very well for 2-3 years, but let me ask you this? When the retro styling is played out, and they are everywhere, and no longer unique, how exactly does Ford do a restyle on a vehicle that was, for all practical purposes, styled 35 years ago? What can you do to make it fresh again? Make it look like a 70 instead of a 67? How about redesign it to look like the Mustang II? Retro styling is a dead end, plain and simple...For the short term, hey its great! They will sell the hell out of them for a while...but how do you look to the future, when your design is buried in the past..you can't....and you are not going to touch one with decent performance for under 30K.......The Ford GT is a gorgeous car, and one that won't be hampered by the retro theme, as it's an extremely small production number niche vehicle...What else has Ford to offer performance wise? The Mustang, The FordGT...and what else? Oh, the Focus SVT, which is a very cool little performance car...except that Ford is now disbanding the SVT team, in favor of slapping ole' Shelbys name on cars....Not much to choose from seeing how the GT is going over 150K, and a Cobra (Shelby) Mustang will be near 40K and a GT will be at 30K...Have you priced the current Mach1? The last one I saw was around 34K...and thats the current body.

Am I a homer for GM?, maybe, but I like the Hemi Dodge/Chryslers, and the Mustang/Ford GT like everyone else, but I cannot stand to see us get bashed by so many people who apparently have no clue as to what available out there, I am sorry if people cannot afford every car GM makes..I guess that's life, I would like a new Ferrari, but I don't bash them for selling them at market value because I can't afford it....You need to realize that cars like the Regals, Malibu, Aveo etc..may not be the most performance minded cars, but those are the cars that pay the bills...GM would not survive one day if all we focused on were performance cars...The mass market cars that you seem to hate allow us to finance the development of cars that you will love....

rob07002
09-30-2004, 09:39 AM
Jeff, I know you don't want to bite the hand that feeds you but if you read my previous posts then why do I have to repeat myself.

OK once again I AM NOT DISPUTTING GM'S DRIVTRAIN,CHASIS, and SUSPENSION INNOVATIONS, JUST THEIR ABILITY TO PACKAGE IT IN AN ATTRACTIVE VEHICLE THAT DOESN'T LOOK LIKE ALL THIER OTHER CARS!!!!!! OR COST A FORTUNE.

The GTO LOOKS, get it LOOKS like a Grand Am, I'm sorry but it does. Have I driven one, YES, does it perform incredible, YES but the GTO is supposed to be a special car and it doesn't look it.

As far as the whole retro thing, I never said thats the direction I wish GM would go in, just be alittle more creative. Ford deserves alot of credit in making the investment in a new Mustang and IMO they will be handsomely rewarded.

Throwing GTO, SS, or whatever else badges on Grand Ams, Malibus, and everything else they have is NOT going to win hearts and minds.

If Ford and Chysler can do it ( Cool cars for less then $35k ) then why not GM.

Jeff it must be especially frustrating to you as an engineer to see your hard work and long hours to come up with a design and see it tossed in a bland bodystyle.

Do you look at the current/future lineup ( with a few exceptions ) and say "Man I can't wait to buy one of those", I know I don't. What worrys me is each month that goes by without Camaro/Firebird or something comprable, GM is loosing market share. Do you think it will be easy to win those consumers back?

Maybe they ran out of sculpting clay or have last decades version cad software or something but its SOOOOOO mundain.

"chicken little" LOL, thats funny,

Steve Chryssos
09-30-2004, 09:44 AM
Jeff,
Whew!! That's a mouthful!! Read my prior posts and you'll see that I agree with most of your statements. two comments:

I disagree that the new Mustang is true retro. As such I believe that its styling will have longevity. Nothing wrong with retro styling cues as long as those design elements are timeless. The PT Cruiser, T-Bird and New Beetle have nose-dived because the original designs are period rather than timeless. The New Mini does a better job of bringing retro cues forward and so does the 05 Mustang. To that end, a hard and fast "anti-retro" policy seems invalid.

Secondly, you make no reference to GM's ability to bring products to market in a timely manner. I've seen so many killer concepts from GM that seem to get lost in the shuffle. I only bring this up because I am wondering if GM working to shorten their turnaround time.

Tell us more about this 400HP Trailblazer SS.
/Steevo

Ralph LoGrasso
09-30-2004, 10:23 AM
Jeff,

I also agree with most of what you said. In my prior posts, I was defending the general, and the GTO. I can't agree more that people complained and complained about GM not offereing a RWD V8 muscle car, GM gave them what they wanted with the GTO, and they then complained about the syling. Sometimes you can't satisfy everyone. I for one would love an '05 Goat, or a C6 for that matter.

BAD6SPD
09-30-2004, 10:44 AM
See Below

BAD6SPD
09-30-2004, 10:53 AM
Steve,

I do like the new Mustang, but I have yet heard, or read a convincing argument on how you update such a design, and I do hope it does well for them, Ford needs a winner, bad. I hope I am proven wrong, and the next restyle looks just as cool..I am not a designer, so I will not pretend to know the best avenue for a restyle, I guess we shall see in about 5 years.

Unfortunately, for a very long time GM has had a bureaucracy that seems to rival the federal government, under the previous President (Ron Zarella), he instituted the dreaded "Brand Management" philiosophy of "it doesn't matter how the product looks or how good the quality is, as long as you market it correctly, people will buy it" That works great for toothpaste and contact lenses (he came from Bausch and Lamb), but people are far more passionate about thier cars than disposable goods. Ironically, he was in charge for 10 years, and each year GM LOST a point of market share. That lead to vehicles designed by "committees" and by "focus groups" and by "bean counters"..and the classic result was the Pontiac Aztec, that is Brand Management at its finest, or worst depending on how you look at it. When Bob Lutz came in a few years ago, within 6-8 months, he completely dismantled the brand management system, and returned designers and engineers back to their rightful place at the top of the heap. That has done wonders for our organization. The PRODUCT needs to be number one, that sells cars period. Not fancy marketing, not 87 cupholders, not gimmicks...a solid overall product. I think the direction we are taking is a good one, yes, it will take several years to turn things around, anyone who has a clue of how an automotive company works can tell you that things don't happen overnight. Our product dev. cycles have gone, under Lutz, from over 48 months to 24 months!..I can attest to that, as my timelines for the products I am responsible for are getting shorter and shorter (and stress is going higher and higher!)..I guess the best example of out "new" system will be the upcoming Pontiac Solstice, which was had the concept car built in a matter of a few months, shown at the 2003 Detroit Auto show and will be going into production in 2005 as a 2006 model. That fast, and on top of that, the thing is drop-dead gorgeous, EXACTLY like the concept, exactly....If people knew how much work, testing, development, certification, safety etc etc... goes into a new vehicle that is pretty impressive in my book. I don't wish any ill will onto either Ford or Chrysler, as the domestics are entrenched with a common enemy, you may have heard of a small corporate juggernaut called Toyota?? Yeah, Chevrolet just passed Ford for car sales for the first time in I think 18 years, but our fight is with Toyota/Lexus.

The Trailblazer SS is lowered, 20's, and an LS2....coming very soon. SS now means something when it is put on a vehicle. Fortunately, I get to see the "revolution" on a daily basis from the inside, there are very good things to come....Rome wasn't built in a day.

Q ship
09-30-2004, 10:55 AM
Steve,

I do like the new Mustang, but I have yet heard, or read a convincing argument on how you update such a design, and I do hope it does well for them, Ford needs a winner, bad. I hope I am proven wrong, and the next restyle looks just as cool..I am not a designer, so I will not pretend to know the best avenue for a restyle, I guess we shall see in about 5 years.

Unfortunately, for a very long time GM has had a bureaucracy that seems to rival the federal government, under the previous President (Ron Zarella), he instituted the dreaded "Brand Management" philiosophy of "it doesn't matter how the product looks or how good the quality is, as long as you market it correctly, people will buy it" That works great for toothpaste and contact lenses (he came from Bauch and Laumb), but people are far more passionate about thier cars than disposable goods. Ironically, he was in charge for 10 years, and each year GM LOST a point of market share. That lead to vehicles designed by "committees" and by "focus groups" and by "bean counters"..and the classic result was the Pontiac Aztec, that is Brand Management at its finest, or worst depending on how you look at it. When Bob Lutz came in a few years ago, within 6-8 months, he completely dismantled the brand management system, and returned designers and engineers back to their rightful place at the top of the heap. That has done wonders for our organization. The PRODUCT needs to be number one, that sells cars period. Not fancy marketing, not 87 cupholders, not gimmicks...a solid overall product. I think the direction we are taking is a good one, yes, it will take several years to turn things around, anyone who has a clue of how an automotive company works can tell you that things don't happen overnight. Our product dev. cycles have gone, under Lutz, from over 48 months to 24 months!..I can attest to that, as my timelines for the products I am responsible for are getting shorter and shorter (and stress is going higher and higher!)..I guess the best example of out "new" system will be the upcoming Pontiac Solstice, which was had the concept car built in a matter of a few months, shown at the 2003 Detroit Auto show and will be going into production in 2005 as a 2006 model. Thats fast, and on top of that, the thing is drop-dead gorgeous, EXACTLY like the concept, exactly....If people knew how much work, testing, development, certification, safety etc etc... goes into a new vehicle that is pretty impressive in my book. I don't wish any ill will onto either Ford or Chrysler, as the domestics are entrenched with a common enemy, you may have heard of a small corporate juggernaut called Toyota?? Yeah, Chevrolet just passed Ford for car sales for the first time in I think 18 years, but our fight is with Toyota/Lexus.

The Trailblazer SS is lowered, 20's, and an LS2....coming very soon. SS now means something when it is put on a vehicle. Fortunately, I get to see the "revolution" on a daily basis from the inside, there are very good things to come....Rome wasn't built in a day.

Best post of the week. Thank you Jeff.

Rob, you want to see Ford screw it up? Check out the 427 concept that became the 500 production model. Talk about gutting a great idea.

I guess I'm a hotrodder though and through-I just look at them all as raw material.

zbugger
09-30-2004, 11:20 AM
Rob, you said you'd get flamed. Did you get what you thought? Just wondering....



Anyway, I personally am not really into looks. I really wouldn't mind a car that didn't look all that hot, but still out performed a lot of the crap that's being put out there. It would put a good smile on my face. I do that every time I drive my buddies '04 Accord. No, it's not the fastest car on the planet, but we've upgraded the suspension and that does a lot for it. Strangely, although it may be my driving, I've been able to smoke quite a few cars through the twisties in it. Now, don't get me wrong, if it looks fast, it looks good. But what about the AMX's of the past? Lots of people think they are big fugly beasts. Not me. I'm all about the performance. Looks are secondary. You just may get beat by what looks like a economy car some day. Then, you'll really be pissed because you're just sitting there looking pretty.

rob07002
09-30-2004, 12:01 PM
Well Allen(ZBUGGER) I expected some hostility but all in all I think its been a good exercise, I feel I held my own. If anything good has come out of this at least I sparked some healthy debate. I think it needed to be said and the replies were full of emotion, so with that said I'm happy.
I truly hope Jeff is right about Bob righting the ship, and if the pics of the Soltice are any indication then perhaps its true.
Jeff maybe you can point some of your collegues to this site so they can see how passionate people are about their cars.

I thank Larry, Ralph and all the others responsible for this board for giving me an outlet and forum to express opinions. Good Job

With that being said I feel better that I got this off my chest. As in my first post I am a GM loyalist and are in their corner in the end.

P.S. Jeff I really like your 69, nicely done.....

Steve Chryssos
09-30-2004, 12:13 PM
Yeah--I think it's a great thread. This topic has come up many times before. But this time, we can look forward to progress at GM. By cutting development time, GM will be better able to react to trends Concept cars can make it to production while enthusiasm is still high. And I still maintain that the GTO is important because GM thought outside the box. Let's hope that GM doesn't get discouraged by poor sales.

And the Trailblazer SS? I'd rather have one of these than a GTO because my dog needs to stick her head out of a rear side window (otherwise she overheats and gets diarrhea). So how long before I can get one of these?? Do I hold my breath or go for the Magnum wagon?
/Steevo

edited for punctuation

BAD6SPD
09-30-2004, 12:16 PM
Thanks Rob, and sorry for the "Chicken Little" crack, I just thought "The General is DEAD!" was a little extreme. It is nice that we have passionate customers, you cannot imagine how many "car guys" are floating around in here...

Steve, I believe early to mid-next year, I will find out for sure and send you a PM.

rob07002
09-30-2004, 12:51 PM
Jeff, appology accepted... I still think it was funny. about "The General is Dead!!!!!!!" Well it got your attention... didn't it.

nancejd
09-30-2004, 04:28 PM
Personally, I like the GTO, the only problem I saw with it here in Seattle is that every dealer wanted 10K over MSRP, and wouldn't sell them for less, now they have a bunch on their lot that they can't sell because the news about next years model leaked (plus the little trunk is a joke). What I'm really getting at is that when I bought my '96 Z28, I was able to order it the way I wanted it, and picked it up for $21K. I can't do that with a GTO, I have to get the leather, etc. Not everybody who buys a performance car is looking for all the luxury items too, and with a GTO, I don't have the choice. I personally think the 'vette has the same type of problem. I love my '96, but most people don't. They just won't put up with big heavy doors and a hump in the passenger floor. GMs problem isn't their drivetrain or build quality, it is the ergonomics of the car.

I know I can't afford anything I want, if I could I'd be driving a Lingenfelter 'vette. But I think GM will be making a huge mistake if it makes the Camaro close to the price of a 'vette, it is just too much market saturation.

Steve1968LS2
03-22-2005, 10:57 AM
Rob,
I will say that I applaud GM for releasing the GTO. The car gives me hope that GM can think outside the box. You gotta admit--Like it or not, GM got creative with the Holden deal. Furthermore, I fully expect to see some cool looking, modified GTO's at SEMA this year. In fact, if I like the mods enough, I will take my wallet out. Cheap, leftover GTO's are easy to find.
/Steevo

Yea.. I like GTO's.. they drive great, handle better and have the best interior of any GM made.. even higher quality than the caddys..

the exterior is sorta boring but I have seen some done up ones that look pretty darn good (holden body kits).. they can be made very fast and other than the small trunk I would love to have one for my daily driver. Plus 04's are dirt cheap these days.. :)

Steve1968LS2
03-22-2005, 10:59 AM
HA!!! when james linked to this thread in the other one I had not idea it was an ancient thread..

Its deja vu all over again ;)

Roadrage David
03-24-2005, 02:07 PM
!!!