My Barrett Jackson thoughts

[ProdigyCustoms]

I just thought I would write my view of "the State of the market after Barrett Jackson 2006". Being around the automotive collector / toy market for 25 years, and having rode a couple of the previous "waves" in the "toy" market. Some people look to me for my opinion. And then throw it away, LOL! I must have received 20 phone calls, and had another 20 live conversations this weekend about Barrett Jackson. Everything from, WOW, how about that bus! To, can you believe that LS6 convertible! to, how come the guy in the Ferrari hat bought nothing? But the most popular subject was, what happened to the high end ProTouring and Hot Rods?

Some of these conversations are genuine and inquisitive from people that respect my opinion, but many are from "friends" that are the bolt and nut restoration guys, that just think it is F--kin fantastic these cars did not bring back the investment cost, and would just LOVE to see my business, and all other hot rod builders, that destroy American history, die a slow pain full death!!!!. A lot of these guys know, that if only for a few short seconds, both Bill and Michael thought about the possibility of taking The Goat and Prodigy to BJ. Both Bill and Michael stared the devil in the face with considerable unsolicited offers at SEMA on each car. So, if only for a moment, we had to at least consider the possibility of running them through BJ, if nothing else as a pure business decision. Both Bill and ourselves decided we DID NOT build these cars to sell for profit, but to enjoy, cruise and show. My "FREINDS", knowing about the high offers at SEMA, all wonder, (really want to rub it in), if we made the wrong decision not selling at SEMA? And what if we would have taken it to BJ? And what happened to the market for these cars?

Well, I think what we saw this weekend was resistance in the "hot rod / resto rod" market, let's say north of $125 to $150k. For a couple years Time Machines has been offering copies of the Six Shooter for $250K, and the original only brings $170k and $130K respectively? The 29 T gets all kind of press as the coolest thing since sliced bread, and brings didly? Former Riddler bring only 90K? It seems like buyers were willing to spend a hundred grand or so for a cool toy, but not really willing to step up for huge bucks, north of $150k for hot rods, no matter what the original build cost, awards, press, etc. Another thing i think we saw was their are considerably more people with $100K to spend, then $400K to spend, on a toy. Just about any home owner gained $100K equity in their home the last couple years which they can equity line and buy a toy with for 1 point over prime. But the main thing we saw at BJ as it relates to Hot Rod value, is It really is all about being new and fresh. The offers that tend to fly around SEMA appear to be from guys wanting a fresh, crisp, not shown piece, which they can campaign as their own so they can receive the , "WOW, look at that" instead of the, "there's that car again". I told Bill, while neither the Goat or Prodigy were for sale at SEMA, I felt they were never going to be worth more then they were that moment or possibly this BJ auction, and if one wanted to "cash in", now would be the time. As disappointed as some may be that the Motion car "ONLY" brought $450k, the reality is the car brought supreme money that exceeded the build cost as a fresh piece. The Six Shooter, the 29 T, the riddler car, all support my "stale and previously shown to death" theory.

So what does this mean for guys like us building these cars? I think hobbyist will still continue to invest more in cars then they are going to sell for after a few years on the circuit, just so they can be the one to receive the trophy, or have THEIR name in the magazine story, instead of buying the car complete with trophy's and old stories on the previous owner. I also think the hobbyist is very safe investment wise at $100K to $150K, which will get you a KILLER car, but no Prodigy, Motion, Six Shooter, etc built, but probably return nearly the same amount of money after a couple years.

So, the bad news is, if you build a high end Hot Rod, north of $200K that we will call high end, and you show it and have fun with it for a year or two, your probably going to take a little hit. The good news, is it will be worth $100k to $150k, it use to be worth $50K!

So, what does all this mean us personally, It probably means we made a ****ty business decision and probably lost $100K by not taking Prodigy to Barrett or accepting the offers at SEMA, on the other hand, Michael and I get to enjoy the car and maybe we will get a few trophy's and press with our names on them. Surely their is an accountant in here that can amortize that!

[Rick Dorion]

Thanks for the perspective, Frank. I, personally, like seeing the cars used and not flipped for profit. Of course, it's easier for me to say that not having one!

[speedster]

Frank -
Thanks for your insight. I really do value your opinion. :razz:
I feel that BJ has somewhat of a feeding frenzy attitude, and everyone says "wow, if car X went for $250K, then my car Y will go for $150K even though I only invested $70K. That is most likely not valid, but I think most of us build PT's and Hot Rods for presonal satisfaction not "the flip". And that is a good thing for shops like yours. Both for us having you building our personal cars as well as for you not having so much competition when you do decide to sell one of your creations. For me, the build is half of the fun. The people you meet, the ideas, the designing, the choices, the forums, its all part of it. It stretches the excitement over months or years and then you also have the fun of driving the finished product and going to enthusiast events.
Anyway my < .02 cents.

[rocketman]

i have always felt that to sell a hot rod,street rod etc.you have to take it to the fellow hot rodder or street rodder.i think most the guys at bj are either car collectors wanting a dust collector,or one of these speciality used car guys that are all over old car trader looking to buy cheap and sell for a big profit.i have been to bj and normal guy stuff goes reseasonable.most of us on here arent going to give a million dollars for a bus,ls-6 chevelle,or a hemi cuda.and most of all they most likely wont buy are 100-150 thousand cars for 300 thou.the auction is fun to watch,cool to go to,hell i've even bidded on stuff out.(in my price range).

[coolclassiccars]

frank ,well said,the fact of the matter is,muscle cars in general,let it be pro- touring or the numbers corect restorations , well the demand is still way up and the peak is not in sight.these cars are strong,and so is the economy, at least where these cars are concerned.did anyone notice that pro-touring is now a verbal catagory with the anouncers?let it be know that any nice restored pre 70's car is worth more than it sold new for. :naughty:

[BADVELLE]

I see this all boiling down to 2 things, either you build to enjoy or build to sell. I don't actually believe that you built Prodigy to sell, I think that is great. You all built a car exactly the way you wanted it and now you are going to enjoy the heck out of it. The same goes for Bill (I just picked up the mag this weekend, great article and pics). BJ is all about investment, at least that is what I think of the auction or any auction for that matter. Kudos to all of us that are building to enjoy, not to flip on the first high offer!

[kennyd]

my pocket book feels better that i fliped our( sema) car for for profit !

royce wanted 250 for the 29 pickup
the 55 orange and black , burman built , cost 500+ sold for 190ish
the mauve 37 olds , burman built , cost 500 + sold for 120ish

[BADVELLE]

my pocket book feels better that i fliped our( sema) car for for profit !

royce wanted 250 for the 29 pickup
the 55 orange and black , burman built , cost 500+ sold for 190ish
the mauve 37 olds , burman built , cost 500 + sold for 120ish

Are you talking about the red Nomad you have/had? With all of your labor hours and parts you were able to make a profit, someone must of really wanted the car bad or your labor hour is very cheap. I have always been under the impression that the money in this business is in selling the parts, not in building the cars. I guess it always depends on how much time you have in the car that you are building. :pat: :pat:

[Travis B]

someone must of really wanted the car bad




that pretty much sums it up!
yes it was the nomad it is cali now!

[BADVELLE]

that pretty much sums it up!
yes it was the nomad it is cali now!

The perfect scenario! Thanks for the info.

[kennyd]

Are you talking about the red Nomad you have/had? With all of your labor hours and parts you were able to make a profit, someone must of really wanted the car bad or your labor hour is very cheap. I have always been under the impression that the money in this business is in selling the parts, not in building the cars. I guess it always depends on how much time you have in the car that you are building. :pat: :pat:
build a nice car ,and they will pay . our labor rate is 45 . if there was not any money in building cars ,pepole like troy,allanj,tucci,burman would not be in business .just like frank said ( and i agree ) pepole are willing to pay more for un-shown cars , i would not want to own royce's 29 pick up because it will always be royce's truck .

[kennyd]

frank,
is this the first car you have built that you wanted to keep ? i have not yet built one i like enough to keep ! and what i mean by this is i hate to clean them , work on them after they are finished ,or drive them for fear of tearing it up .

[vanzuuk1]

There is a degree of luck involved, when you see two guys bidding to the moon that wouldnt happen if one guy had stayed home. You need two bidders for a bidding war to get crazy.

I thought the nascar superbird would go higher than the chevelle convertible, I kind of felt bad for a nascar legend watching "his" car be sold off cheap (relatively)

I missed the pure vision gtx go, anyone see how much it went for? I love that car.

[Damn True]

Frank,
In the long term it's probably a far better business decision to build a car that you dig, AND shows off the ability of your shop to keep and drive rather than flip.

Odds are you won't get back what you put in, and using it as a calling card will IMO help you to create more business in the long term than if it disapeared into some silver spooners private collection.

Besides, it's far better to turn $10k in profit off of ten customer projects than $50k from one.

Plus you get to drive it, and isn't that the point?

[Damn True]

There is a degree of luck involved, when you see two guys bidding to the moon that wouldnt happen if one guy had stayed home. You need two bidders for a bidding war to get crazy.

I thought the nascar superbird would go higher than the chevelle convertible, I kind of felt bad for a nascar legend watching "his" car be sold off cheap (relatively)

I missed the pure vision gtx go, anyone see how much it went for? I love that car.


Was the superbird an actual raced car with an authenticated logbook?

[Travis B]

Frank,


Odds are you won't get back what you put in


I don't know of many car builders that loose money on builds!

[vanzuuk1]

They said it was an authentic car but I didnt hear them mention any particular history, maybe I missed it. Baddass car though.

On the way to daytona for bike week years ago we saw a winston cup 77 monte for sale cheap, wish I had bought that car and saved it.

[Damn True]

I don't know of many car builders that loose money on builds!


Well since Frank clearly intends to drive, show and have the car shot (mags) he will never sell it for what he might have on a straight flip.

I'm sure shops that are commisioned by people to build cars make a profit....thank you captain obdvious. And I know that builders frequently build on spec provided they have a reputation that attracts buyers.

But for a shop that is really starting to cut their teeth in this kind of thing trying to build a big $$ car in hopes of a big $$ flip would be downright foolish.

Far better to build something nice and use it as your billboard to attract customers and build the reputation than try to hit a home-run on one pitch.

[Travis B]

Far better to build something nice and use it as your billboard to attract customers and build the reputation than try to hit a home-run on one pitch.


I agree with that statement 100%...I see it happening all the time to!

[BADVELLE]

I don't know of many car builders that loose money on builds!


I am sure there are more than you think. I was told by a builder at Des Moines one year that they loose money building cars. They make there money from endorsements and selling there parts or being a dealer for other manufacturers'. I guess it all depends on what the customer wants and what they are willing to pay for the work done.

[Damn True]

I agree with that statement 100%...I see it happening all the time to!


The world is full of failed builders (cars and choppers) who've tried to do just that.

There is a reason why Bobby Alloway can just start working on some old hulk and have it sold before the first bit of rust is fixed. His reputation brings the customers.

[Travis B]

The world is full of failed builders (cars and choppers) who've tried to do just that.

There is a reason why Bobby Alloway can just start working on some old hulk and have it sold before the first bit of rust is fixed. His reputation brings the customers.


you have to have a name w/o people won't pay the big bucks for a car..I went to school with a bunch of guys that thought they were going ot leave there and be the next chip foose...I have heard of 3 of them failing to this date!

[Damn True]

Those guys may very well have had more talent in their little finger than Foose. But, "Dude I'm gonna start a [Hot-Rod, Chopper, Bicycle, Surfboard etc.] shop." will fail 99 times out of 100.
You have to build the rep first. The best way to do that is by sucking up some pride and working for someone else. Like Foose did when he was with Boyd. Build a reputation (which becomes a customer base) over time.

[Bill Howell]

My take on the auction is this. I feel that while our style cars will never bring the money a low mileage, matching numbers car will, the fact is there are only a few of those cars left. However, this auction has proved that unlike the reto days of the past, the prostreet days, protouring cars, built right, with the correct proven parts may actually be a break even process now. Who knows, maybe in a year or two, we can actually make money on fresh cars. I built my car to drive, so profit has never really been a driving force, however, after I enjoy it this year, I may run it through next January just to see what happens. If I can play with it a year, then break selling it, that is a hell of a lot better than I can do with a new Porsche or Viper. Looking at the difference in attention last year, compared to this year, if the trend continues, Protouring style cars will be doing real numbers at BJ soon. Again, I do not think the majority of cars built on this site are built with the intention to sell for profit, but hopefully you can break even now if you finish a quality car. That can only be good news. After seeing the Saturday stuff sell, it was easy to become jaded Sunday, but when protouring cars were bringing 70K to 8OK, that is still nothing to sneeze at. May not be much profit, but good return anyway.

[73z-6sp]

Uhhh...

[DeepBlue68]

This is totally off-topic, but did anyone see that old 30-something Willys with the gigantic chromed-out supercharged engine sticking through the hood that burnt holes in the carpet on the block when they revved it up? That was freakin amazing.

One thing that I laughed at was while that car was being bid on, the Speed guys in the booth were talking to the guy down on the auction block. One thing they asked him was something to the effect of "what category does this car fall into? Pro-Touring, Pro-Street, Resto-mod?" I almost s*** a frisbee when they said Pro-Touring. I don't know if they were saying that just to use the term and sound knowledgeable, or if they seriously didn't know whether that car was P-T or not. Luckily the guy down on the block said "undoubtedly pure Pro Street." I had a big sigh of relief after that one. I guess the Barrett Jackson's bread and butter is (1) factory original nut and bolt restorations and (2) traditional 30's hot rods, so the announcers are never gonna be anything close to an expert on Resto-mods, Pro Touring, etc.

[Bill Howell]

This is totally off-topic, but did anyone see that old 30-something Willys with the gigantic chromed-out supercharged engine sticking through the hood that burnt holes in the carpet on the block when they revved it up? That was freakin amazing.

One thing that I laughed at was while that car was being bid on, the Speed guys in the booth were talking to the guy down on the auction block. One thing they asked him was something to the effect of "what category does this car fall into? Pro-Touring, Pro-Street, Resto-mod?" I almost s*** a frisbee when they said Pro-Touring. I don't know if they were saying that just to use the term and sound knowledgeable, or if they seriously didn't know whether that car was P-T or not. Luckily the guy down on the block said "undoubtedly pure Pro Street." I had a big sigh of relief after that one.
I saw that too, lol
It was a resale also, followed the six shooter challenger on Sunday. First sale was a no sale. I bet he got a bill for the melted carpet, I also bet it sounded really good inside the tent when he revved the motor and burnt the carpet.....

[vintageracer]

All you need to do is look at the 72 GTX "R" built by Bill Stroppe for the Daimler/Chrysler display at the 2003 SEMA show to see what an almost new "Pro-Touring" car will bring at auction with few miles and LOT"S of magazine/media coverage . That BEAUTITUL Red/Red car sold Sunday for $65,000! That amount is easily less than 1/2 of the original build cost of that car!

In "MY" opinion this was an absolute STEAL if you like that car and "I" do like that car. This car "was" the star of the MOPAR booth at the 2003 SEMA show. The car has been in EVERY magazine worth reading and in many print ads. The selling price for this car was LESS THAN THE LABOR BILL TO BUILD THE CAR! The buyer got a FREE car, FREE parts and a lot of FREE labor!

This particular 72 GTX car, numerous high profile street rods and several other 2 year old high end, magazine famous Pro-tour/Street Rod cars sold CHEAP at this sale. What's neat and new today quickly gets old in this ever changing hobby. If you build a car that's new, fresh and innovative with any thought of selling the car within 1 year, SELL IMMEDIATELY! Be a whore and take the big money as it is a VERY good chance that the value of your prized car will drop MUCH faster than you think! If you keep it 1 year you WILL lose money. By lose money I do not mean you will get less money than when the car was new and fresh. I mean you will lose all that profit you would enjoy by an immediate sale AND get far less money than you have invested building the car!

Just one man's opinion who was there all week!

There were lot's of bargains in the Phoenix paper. I bought 3 cars and another guy with me bought 3. All were purchased by riding and looking at cars or at the BIG Saturday car show on Indian Bend Road. There was over 1,000 cars at the local show and most were for sale just by asking.

The prime time TV coverage does not do this auction justice. Sure, there are cars that bring HUGE money. There are also LOT'S of cars that are very reasonable or cheap.

If you will go to BJ to purchase a car WITHOUT any specific car in mind before you arrive, you will find a nice car at a deal! With so many nice regular/collector/special interest cars for sale there it would be hard not to find a nice car for your personal enjoyment.

[Bill Howell]

Was the car show at the Pavillions?

[Damn True]

I bought 3 cars and another guy with me bought 3.

What'd ya buy?

:postpics:

[vintageracer]

1 70 GTO
1 70 Cutlass Convertible
1 65 Lemans Convertible rolling body
1 71 Buick GS Convertible
1 70 Pontiac Trans Am
1 70 "Boss Hog" Cadillac Convertible

Tried to get a 70 Malibu convertible and a 72 Malibu convertible but either I was too cheap or they were too stubborn????

Yes Bill, the car show is every Saturday at the Pavillions!

I was a guest at a superb car collection owned by a gentleman who bought my 70 Buick Stage 1 Convertible last year. He had a private party on Sunday with "Unbelieveable" as the only way to describe his collection! He is also the gentleman who sold the 70 Hemi Cuda Convertible for $2.2MM.

[Bill Howell]

1 65 Lemans Convertible rolling body



Posers like us....... :)

[USAZR1]

Guess there's two ways to look at this:
Are you building someone's dream or a profit/loss statement?

[lftnwhls]

Did anybody here the announcer say to the other announcer say "why is a 327 so much more sought after than a 409?"

I spit my drink halfway accross the room how did these guys get the job.

It only makes an original impalla worth like 15K more having the 409.

[ProdigyCustoms]

The announcers are a joke. And they speak so with such conviction, like they really know what they are talking about.

[southernfriedcj]

1 70 Pontiac Trans Am


Is it for sale?

Jim

[Travis B]

What's neat and new today quickly gets old in this ever changing hobby. If you build a car that's new, fresh and innovative with any thought of selling the car within 1 year, SELL IMMEDIATELY! Be a whore and take the big money as it is a VERY good chance that the value of your prized car will drop MUCH faster than you think! If you keep it 1 year you WILL lose money. By lose money I do not mean you will get less money than when the car was new and fresh. I mean you will lose all that profit you would enjoy by an immediate sale AND get far less money than you have invested building the car!

Just one man's opinion who was there all week!

.


You pretty much hit the nail on the head with that statement...we build most of our cars to sell and usually we have them gone in the first 2 to 3 months of completion! :twothumbs

[Nine Ball]

I don't use BJ as a gauge to the industry or to tell me how buyers will react. The honest truth is that some of these big name cars were overpriced last year and sold. Some pro-touring cars have excellent craftsmanship and an impressive parts list, but are built using cars that aren't as desirable as others, or painted colors that turn off half of the potential buyers. Being too different can sometimes hurt your sale, its been proven many times.

I've seen cars that have had tons of coverage sell pretty good after just performing a wheel swap. We all know that a simple $2000-4000 wheel/tire swap can completely change the look of a car and disguise it as something new, as long as the car isn't too unique and identifiable on its own. Bill's GTO or Prodigy couldn't do that of course, they are too unique.

Screw taking your chances on BJ with these cars. Put them on ebay and set a reasonable reserve price. If it doesn't sell, it doesn't sell. Doesn't cost you anything. Ebay sees PLENTY of buyers with cash in their pocket. You will probably even get offers before the car hits reserve. Thats how I sold my red '69, I was offered my reserve price on the 2nd day of a 7-day auction. I basically sold my car for the value of the parts and car, no labor. But, I had fun racing it, doing the long haul on Power Tour with it, and taking it to several shows and cruises. I got it into PHR and CHP magazines, and felt that I was "done" with the car and wanted to start something new.

Don't count ebay out guys, you don't need to risk the no reserve sales at BJ.

Tony

[vintageracer]

Tony,

I agree with that EBAY is a good selling vehicle for these cars. I think your post/statement supports my opinion about selling fresh cars immediately for top dollar as you stated in your post "I sold my car for the value of the parts and car, NO Labor". Granted, you may enjoy the work as a hobby however everyone's time is worth something and for many this may not be hobby but a profession.

Depending on the car you build, the labor expense can/does exceed the the cost of the "car and parts" in the build of most cars. If this is true, and "I" believe this to be the case, where you sell your car or what venue you use to advertise/sell your car really does not make any difference since the selling price may/will be the same.

The only difference I see between all other selling methods and a no reserve auction is that the seller no longer maintains control as to the decision/price at which the car sells in a "no reserve" auction. Many times keeping control is also NOT a good thing since in most cases the first offer you receive is your best offer and all of us know how many times we have said "Damn, I should have taken his offer"! At least the "no reserve" auction will eliminate "greed" on the sellers part since the seller no longer has to make the decision to sell the car since the high bidder will own the car. Kinda like "Texas Hold-um"!

Something to consider???

[Nine Ball]

I've had offers to build cars for private parties, and have considered it. The only problem I have is not having enough spare time to do it. I barely have time to work on my own cars, and enjoy not having to keep a deadline on those. I work in oil/gas as a Project Manager, so when I get home I don't want a schedule haha. But, you are correct, hobbyists that enjoy building cars will rarely lose money. We don't have the overheads to pay, and we don't bill for our hours. I did some calculations with Phil at BRP on the build cost of my car, and it would have been about $30K worth of labor at regular rates. Basically, $95-100K to duplicate my car. I sold the car for $60K cash, wired directly into my account. I probably could have held out for $70K (had offers after I removed it from ebay), but the buyer seemed too legit to pass up.

Honestly, if I were to build cars for a living, I wouldn't even build a car for myself. I'd make sure each car was paid in advance (at least 50% down) from a buyer, and just do the typical cost+% on any parts needed. Labor would be logged. It would be tough to build cars on your dime and hope they sell. Much less stressful knowing the car is already paid for.

[southernfriedcj]

Is it for sale?

Jim



Bueller? Bueller? Anyone?:hmm:

[Bob Johnson]

Bueller? Bueller? Anyone?:hmm:
One thing that hurts Hot rods, Pro-tour cars etc is not being able to drive them at an auction. Look under 90% of the cars and there's exhaust, oil pans, trans pans, etc hanging below the frame rails. Most hot rods drive like crap. Poor engineering is the norm, not the exception. You can have a guy that wins everything at ISCA competition, and won't even get a pity pick at Goodguys shows. Original cars have a common denominator..it's the quality of restoration that makes the difference..even then, some drive like crap..but when you change everything, engine, trans, rear, suspension etc. people are leary..and justifiably so. I sell these cars..very small percentage of them do what they should. The 29 of Royce's and Pinkies is a marvelous car..but what is it good for? It's beautiful, but you couldn't drive it for any distance..for one thing it's too nice, too uncomfortable, too small, etc. I haven't seen anything I like detail wise any better. But it's just not a logical piece. I know it's worth more, but $190K isn't chicken feed. I wish it had brought more, because I would like for Royce to have had the extra money to invest in a new car. He has a great imagination and I anxiously await his next creation. He and Pinkee are a formidable force to be reckoned with. It's guys like them that challenge creativity from others. I know how he feels because my Woodie didn't do but $200K..It cost me over twice that and would cost about 3 times that to replace. Barrett is going to get this market going..Rome wasn't built in a day..I looked at nearly all the cars at Barrett..very few hot rods had it all together. I didn't see that many great deals or I would have bought them..but then again I'm pretty judgemental and hard to [please..

[dougs68ss]

yes. i sat there in amazement ,glued to the tv .yes sometimes in awe .watching the mega million dollar cars roll on by and buyers throwing buckets of money at them. that whole circus has nothing to do with the hobby we are all enthralled with. i mean the true hobbiest is trying to squeeze as much as he can out of what he has. constant hours under the car rerouting something ,adapting some trans. or whatever someone says wont fit.getting the last 1/4inch of tire in wheelwell.i bet none of those buyers even own a toolbox.. you ask them at a local car show "whats in it" they just look at you and dont know what to say.those cars are like baseball cards ,you just stuff em in the garage and look at em once in a while when the detailer comes over. i dont know but if it wasnt for the hobby guys like ourselves ,i guess the sport wouldnt be as strong as it is. im never going to be able to have a million dollar LS-6 or KR-500 but im still going to have fun in my money sucking, little old 68 rs/ss coupe.....but at least i know "whats in it" by every nut, bolt ,compression heighth,cam lobe center etc. happy motoring!

[dougs68ss]

im just trying to say ,do you enjoy the fact that you built your own car(the way you wanted)or did you get more enjoyment just standing there with your wallet open...

[southernfriedcj]

Don't be hatin' the rich boys. I'm sure a lot of 'em worked their tails off to make their bucks, so why hate if they want to drop major dollars on a car? To some it's an investment, to some it's for the love of the car, some are tryin' to buy the cool factor, some just want everybody to think they're the man. To each his own. It trips me out to see all the haters on all the car forums. The built vs. bought, the numbers matching guys vs. the clones, the rock crawlers vs. the mall crawlers, the rat rodders vs. the billet blingers, and on it goes. I say to each his own.

[dougs68ss]

thats the love of the hobby! but the look on the faces of those who bought....when they had to write the check.,,,,the same look ihad when idropped the 2000$ for baer brakes, hey man its all in fun!

[BRIAN]

If someone offers anybody a significant amount more than it cost to build it what is wrong with flipping it for more money. Problem is BJ takes all the BS offers and puts them on the line. I always hear the, This guy offered me $100k but I turned him down deal. If you are in business to make money working on cars why not sell. Then again whatever makes anybody happy go for it. You built it and do as you please with it.

The orange and black 55 should have gone for a lot more as it is a popular body style but I agree the 29 as intricate as it was is just a little out there in useability. I guess this year the market was just flodded with Rods and the buyers felt safer buying correctly restored cars as they are a safe investment. Notice Boyd's cars bring top money in any market. It is all in the name but in his case also the quality to back it up.

As for building a car I guess the Street Rod guy who has to fabricate every piece will never see a bolt together car such as a Camaro or Chevelle as a built car unless there are serious mods. In all fairness it depends on the car and degree of workmanship.


What I got out of BJ was to but every Chrysler I can find and fill them up with crate Hemi engines.

[Bob Johnson]

If someone offers anybody a significant amount more than it cost to build it what is wrong with flipping it for more money. Problem is BJ takes all the BS offers and puts them on the line. I always hear the, This guy offered me $100k but I turned him down deal. If you are in business to make money working on cars why not sell. Then again whatever makes anybody happy go for it. You built it and do as you please with it.

The orange and black 55 should have gone for a lot more as it is a popular body style but I agree the 29 as intricate as it was is just a little out there in useability. I guess this year the market was just flodded with Rods and the buyers felt safer buying correctly restored cars as they are a safe investment. Notice Boyd's cars bring top money in any market. It is all in the name but in his case also the quality to back it up.

As for building a car I guess the Street Rod guy who has to fabricate every piece will never see a bolt together car such as a Camaro or Chevelle as a built car unless there are serious mods. In all fairness it depends on the car and degree of workmanship.


What I got out of BJ was to but every Chrysler I can find and fill them up with crate Hemi engines.
all Boyd's cars do not do all the money..his 36 Ford didn't do well..last year he sold his, well Tony Pisano's 32 Boydster..it didn't bring half it's cost..The woodie he built didn't bring half it's cost.. on and on Ron Pratt is the sole buyer that has made his cars do the cheese..as far as quality, when have you seen a car of his win a show? ie Goodguys or NSRA? Have you looked at a car of his in the last 5 years? I haven't seen a car of his even enter a competition. ..talk to the people in the sport who know quality. Have you watched his TV show? Have you listened to the employee comments, looked at how things are being done? What is your personal opinion of Orange County Chopper's build quality?

[dougs68ss]

your right on that. my neighbor sold his superbee last year, ground up resto etc hes crying now. sold it for 30 grand to buy a SANDRAIL oops! but your right about the hemi stuff.

[vanzuuk1]

I have done a lot of miles on a lot of bikes, the occ bikes are for people not into bikes.

They are the two wheel version of the cars in "pimp my ride".

Sorry if that offends anyone.

[Bob Johnson]

I have done a lot of miles on a lot of bikes, the occ bikes are for people not into bikes.

They are the two wheel version of the cars in "pimp my ride".

Sorry if that offends anyone.
ask 90% of the people on the street who builds the best bikes and cars in the country..guess what answers you will get..even worse, ask 90% of the people at a car event and you'll get close to the same answers..average Joe just don't know..

[kennyd]

Don't be hatin' the rich boys. I'm sure a lot of 'em worked their tails off to make their bucks, so why hate if they want to drop major dollars on a car? To some it's an investment, to some it's for the love of the car, some are tryin' to buy the cool factor, some just want everybody to think they're the man. To each his own. It trips me out to see all the haters on all the car forums. The built vs. bought, the numbers matching guys vs. the clones, the rock crawlers vs. the mall crawlers, the rat rodders vs. the billet blingers, and on it goes. I say to each his own.


good point ! some build, some buy ... i bought my house , i didnot build it i guess i am a checkwriter also !

[kennyd]

bob , what did the 36 bring ? that car was a hack job , there was mud hanging from the rear roll pan ,underside of the hood looked like it was painted in a sand storm . i was disapointed . strange ,strange world

[ProdigyCustoms]

good point ! some build, some buy ... i bought my house , i didnot build it i guess i am a checkwriter also !

I really like this Kenny guy!

[Bob Johnson]

bob , what did the 36 bring ? that car was a hack job , there was mud hanging from the rear roll pan ,underside of the hood looked like it was painted in a sand storm . i was disapointed . strange ,strange world
did you look at the 42 Woodie? Pratt never took delivery of it..lost him over $200K too..didn't seem to dampen his enthusiasm for Boyd though. I need me a benefactor like that. He must have 15 Boyd built cars..I guess we look at things differently..there's something there I just don't comprehend..guess it's like I used to tell the girlfriends..it starts to feel good after a few times if you know what I mean..when you just put them in a building and don't drive them, it takes awhile to see what you really have..All the results should be posted on Barrett-Jackson.com..I think the 36 did in the 60's. It didn't do a thing for me. I did like his 63 Dodge though. That red woodie did almost as much $ as my 47 did. I wouldn't trade mine for 3 of the 42 red one. That's absolutely one of Boyd's worst efforts..they even said so on the TV show..It was just an abortion every way you look at it. I heard he sold his wheel business to the same Investment group that bought American Racing.

[Travis B]

I heard he sold his wheel business to the same Investment group that bought American Racing.

yes he did..I guess that commpany i buying a bunch of wheel companys

[Bob Johnson]

yes he did..I guess that commpany i buying a bunch of wheel companys
I wonder how that worked..I thought his son Boyd Jr. had the company in his name..he's been at Weld Wheel for over a year. heard he was suing his dad..heard Mike was suing Boyd too..I actually feel sorry for Boyd. He wasn't looking very well. Heard he was in Scotty's motorhome sick. Bad thing about having a big name..State picked him out to scare everyone else about that title crap in California..charging in with guns drawn is way over the top..he didn't deserve that. Scared jim Rizzo to death..he didn't last but a few months working there..looks like a house of cards on the surface..hope not because Boyd did some nice stuff once upon a time. His vindictiveness for Chip Foose needs to stop. That's getting him nowhere..Foose is bigger than life, and has the good boy image, and deservedly so. Attacking him is hurting him not Foose. What was Foose supposed to do when Boyd went down? I thought he went over and beyond the call of duty with Boyd's original operation. He also has a hard on for Charlie and Mike..they both have the good boy image too.

[southernfriedcj]

good point ! some build, some buy ... i bought my house , i didnot build it i guess i am a checkwriter also !



I never thought of that analogy, and I'm a Homebuilder!

Jim

[Travis B]

I agree Bob...I haven't been around this as long as you and others have but some people have the complete wrong preception of Boyd...The TV thing did nothing but heart his image! Boyd can build some nice cars it's to bad he has a chip on his shoulder now(sorry had to use that analogy)


I wonder how that worked..I thought his son Boyd Jr. had the company in his name..he's been at Weld Wheel for over a year. heard he was suing his dad..heard Mike was suing Boyd too..I actually feel sorry for Boyd. He wasn't looking very well. Heard he was in Scotty's motorhome sick. Bad thing about having a big name..State picked him out to scare everyone else about that title crap in California..charging in with guns drawn is way over the top..he didn't deserve that. Scared jim Rizzo to death..he didn't last but a few months working there..looks like a house of cards on the surface..hope not because Boyd did some nice stuff once upon a time. His vindictiveness for Chip Foose needs to stop. That's getting him nowhere..Foose is bigger than life, and has the good boy image, and deservedly so. Attacking him is hurting him not Foose. What was Foose supposed to do when Boyd went down? I thought he went over and beyond the call of duty with Boyd's original operation. He also has a hard on for Charlie and Mike..they both have the good boy image too.

[Doug Cooper]

I think Boyds 36 sold for 105. Tony Pisano was sitting next to me saying how cheap it was and almost bidding on it. If it wasn't before his car went off he would have bid.

[Bill Howell]

good point ! some build, some buy ... i bought my house , i didnot build it i guess i am a checkwriter also !

Thank you Kenny, as a builder of homes and cabins in east Tennessee, I can appreciate your comment. Kinda my point all along here, no difference in writing the check or doing the work, still your car, or house. Let the haters be haters, I guess they all built their own house too. Oh yeah, bolt ons(ie garage doors, repainting shutters, even backyard shops) don't count, still homeowner poser........ :thankyou:

[Travis B]

good point ! some build, some buy ... i bought my house , i didnot build it i guess i am a checkwriter also !


he is famous for this quote on several forums....

[kennyd]

i really dig boyds cars , my top 10 of all time includes 4 of boyds cars ! whattahey,boydair,led zephry , vern luce coupe, the polara could move into spot 10 and push out a nice car .

i hate popole using the term " checkwriter" thats just like using the " n " word

[kennyd]

the funny thing about my saying that about my house is , i and my father did build it .

[Damn True]

The thing is, when my house is done I wont take it to shows and try to pass it off as my own. Yeah, I paid for it, but I hired a talented architect and contractor and will readilly admit that I have no idea how to do what they do.

Bill, I don't think anyone has a problem with a situation such as yours or Cuda-guy Johnson. You were involved in every step of the creation of Billy Goat. You can recite chapter and verse the technical details of the car. You are a car guy and to other car guys that is readilly identifiable and much respected.

What some of us DO have a distaste for though (I won't use the term "hater" because I'm not 16 years old) is the guy who simply wants to "buy-in".
Knows nothing of what went into the car.
Is clueless as to the process.
Has no knowledge of the technical details of the car.
Is barely able to appreciate the difference in craftsmanship between what Bobby Alloway does and some of the 20 footers that Boyd has produced of late. They are buying the car because it is a status symbol for them. A red badge of honor to display to their equally clueless friends and exclaim, "I bought this from the famous Boyd Coddington for $150k."
These guys don't have an appreciation for high-level craftsmanship or engineering. For those of you who are builders the only status you have in their eyes is predicated on what you sold your last car for, not how well you built it and if the next flavor of the week builder crops up at next years BJ auction you will be dropped by those guys like a bad habit because what you do has zero value to them.

Look at Orange County Choppers. Absolute abortion bikes. The vast majority of what they do is catalog bolt-ons with a couple of decorations welded on to match a "theme". No engineering, no ride quality consideration, no handling consideration, no safety consideration. All style (most of it bad) and no substance. Yet, they sell bikes (for now) to clueless dolts who see them on the Discovery Channel and can't tell the difference and don't see a difference between what OCC does and the kind of bikes that are built by Jesse James, Indian Larry (R.I.P.), Paul Yaffee, Dave Perewitz and Russel Mitchell. The people that buy bikes from OCC are not bikers, they are collectors of Objets D'art.

Yeah, those collectors have fat wallets and I don't knock anyone who can tap into that. You gotta pay your bills just like I gotta pay mine. But I refuse, as do many others, to regard a collector of Objet D'art (or "check-writer" if you will) in the same manner as I do someone who bends their own wrench.

[kennyd]

boy has this got way off subject ,
doug ,bob , was the beer cold ?

[96Z28SS]

Look at Orange County Choppers. Absolute abortion bikes. The vast majority of what they do is catalog bolt-ons with a couple of decorations welded on to match a "theme". No engineering, no ride quality consideration, no handling consideration, no safety consideration. All style (most of it bad) and no substance. Yet, they sell bikes (for now) to clueless dolts who see them on the Discovery Channel and can't tell the difference and don't see a difference between what OCC does and the kind of bikes that are built by Jesse James, Indian Larry (R.I.P.), Paul Yaffee, Dave Perewitz and Russel Mitchell. The people that buy bikes from OCC are not bikers, they are collectors of Objets D'art.


I think from watching OCC on TV lately I think they are more high tech than alot of the other builder shows I've seen on TV.
They have been doing alot of the stuff in house now. They have a Solidworks CAD Designer. Faro arm digitizer, CNC machines. The Bikes you see on the TV shows are the theme bikes which is just a paid advertisement, its cheaper than a 30 second commercial spot. They get talked about on 2 episodes 2 hours total. Like the Lincoln bike, the Gillette Razor bike, the Napa bike, Snap-on etc.. its all just an advertisement.
The regular bikes that OCC sell the street legal ones. with directional and horn and can pass an inspection, are just as good as any other custom bike builder.

[Damn True]

I think from watching OCC on TV lately I think they are more high tech than alot of the other builder shows I've seen on TV.
They have been doing alot of the stuff in house now. They have a Solidworks CAD Designer. Faro arm digitizer, CNC machines. The Bikes you see on the TV shows are the theme bikes which is just a paid advertisement, its cheaper than a 30 second commercial spot. They get talked about on 2 episodes 2 hours total. Like the Lincoln bike, the Gillette Razor bike, the Napa bike, Snap-on etc.. its all just an advertisement.
The regular bikes that OCC sell the street legal ones. with directional and horn and can pass an inspection, are just as good as any other custom bike builder.



Oh dude a fancy water-jet cutting machine does not a good bike make.

Have you seen any of their bikes in person? The rake/trail numbers are often completely absurd. The bar-reach is totally jacked up in terms of the ability to control the bike. The foot control location relative to the saddle is often really really wrong. They just are really poorly designed bikes.

[kennyd]

Oh dude a fancy water-jet cutting machine does not a good bike make.

Have you seen any of their bikes in person? The rake/trail numbers are often completely absurd. The bar-reach is totally jacked up in terms of the ability to control the bike. The foot control location relative to the saddle is often really really wrong. They just are really poorly designed bikes.


yes i have , and i have seen alot of car that are worse !

[Damn True]

yes i have , and i have seen alot of car that are worse !


....and that is relative....to what?

The point is their bikes are a joke. Yet the dolts that buy them don't know any better because they aren't bikers. They are simply collecting expensive stuff. The only "value" is in the name and noterity created by a TV show.

If you had the reputation you too could build crappy cars and sell them for big $$ to clueless collectors just like Boyd. But would you want that?

I mean, the money is attractive to be sure. But the price is that you go from being a car guy, a hot-rodder to being OCC/Boyd....sold out. And, everyone but the clueless dolt collectors will be able to see it.

I have never seen anything you've built. But I get the sense that you have some skill. But to the collector, that skill & talent is irelevant. That's how Boyd can get away with selling cars with visible bondo. They are buying it because it has Boyds name on it for the same reason a 14 year old girl buys a sweatshirt with Gwen Steffani's name on it.



The point is, that there is a huge difference between a genuine car guy and a dude who is simply a collector.

[96Z28SS]

Oh dude a fancy water-jet cutting machine does not a good bike make.

Have you seen any of their bikes in person? The rake/trail numbers are often completely absurd. The bar-reach is totally jacked up in terms of the ability to control the bike. The foot control location relative to the saddle is often really really wrong. They just are really poorly designed bikes.

yes they have a water jet cutting machine also, along with CNC machines and stuff. They have come along way since there first few seasons. I have seen there Theme Bikes in person and have also seen there regular retail bikes.
The theme bikes are totaly different from the regular bikes.

I haven't seen a bike builder on TV with as much in house equipment as OCC and Borget bikes. Jesse James has alot of equipment also. OCC is building bikes from computer CAD files now. I have never taken there bikes for a ride but I haven't heard anyone complaining either.

[Damn True]

"I have seen their Theme Bikes"....(Sorry, it's a pet peve of mine.)



That's because most of the people that buy them, don't ride them. If they do, they don't have enough experience on a bike to tell that they are riding a P.O.S.

Yes, they have CNC mills and a CAD machine. Big freakin deal.
I have Solidworks on my computer at work. Does that mean I can design a bike with appropriate geometry? Can I design a 3-link rear suspension that will be effective? No. The output is only as good as the input. If you tell the CNC mill to make something, it'll do it. It dosen't care if the geometry is right, or if it is engineered appropriately.

The amount of in house equipment they have is not relevant. The end result is. The geometry on their bikes is crap. The riding positions aren't safe. But people buy 'em.


But I don't think the relative quality of OCC bikes is the point. What is the point is that people buy them regardless of the quality. People buy them because of the noterity created by a TV show. People buy them because it creates status among other people who also don't understand the difference between a bike built by OCC and a bike built by Perewitz or Mitchell. People buy them for the same reason 14 year old girls pay $108 (I'm serious, google it) for a hooded sweatshirt from Gwen Steffani.

Equally, people pay fat coin for a car from Boyd regardless of the quality. They buy it because it has his name on it and because it is expensive.
That is the difference between a collector and a real car guy. The real car guy wont accept shoddy workmanship and crap engineering because even if he has the means to have somone else build it he understands and appreciates the difference between an expensive P.O.S. and an expensive well built car. He understands the difference between a builder that is in it for a quick buck and a builder that cares about the product he creates. He understands because more than likely at one point in his life he did it himself because he had to. That guy is a real car guy, a real hot-rodder.

[96Z28SS]

...OCC/Boyd....sold out and everyone but the clueless dolt collectors will be able to see it.


How did OCC sell out? They had nothing to sell. Boyd had an established name in the hot rod world. He was the man to go to for a cool custom in the '80 & '90's.

OCC was in the basement of there Iron works shop. The show has made them all the money. So you can't say they sold out. The made there money by the advertisement that these companies pay to have theme bikes built. The theme bike as far as I know aren't bike you ride.
Paul Sr. takes them out for a few miles then thats probably all they get ridden.

[Doug Cooper]

boy has this got way off subject ,
doug ,bob , was the beer cold ?

I was to busy looking at the cars and "writing checks"! Just kidding I didn't buy anything this year, came close. I bid on the 57 Nomad Leonard Lopez built but Michael Anthony took it home.

[kennyd]

I was to busy looking at the cars and "writing checks"! Just kidding I didn't buy anything this year, came close. I bid on the 57 Nomad Leonard Lopez built but Michael Anthony took it home.
thats the nomad that was on display with dupont ? red / cream .. nice car

[derekf]

Mark - I'm not really sure where you're dividing this up. To use American Hot Rod as an example, it sounds like what you're saying is that Roy and Charlie built cars; Bluebear and the like just assembled?

What if someone does great bodywork but farms out the painting? Or if the body didn't need any bodywork but the owner painted it himself? Would you consider JP a car builder? He definitely did the fabrication, but farmed out the body work.

Or am I (and I think others) taking what you said in the wrong way?

[Travis B]

Mark - I'm not really sure where you're dividing this up. To use American Hot Rod as an example, it sounds like what you're saying is that Roy and Charlie built cars; Bluebear and the like just assembled?



he was using boyd as an example only stating he would be considered a car builder(i.e. he does tear down,fab,fit,body, paint, etc etc) I think that was the only reason that name was brought up!

To buy a car and change the motor and trans throw in some drop springs is not building a car!

[Damn True]

Would one need to smelt iron ore, manganese, nickel, copper and bronze then take those raw elements and combine them into steel in order to manufacture their own sheet metal as well?

[1sick65]

Just my two cents...I'm not a car builder and never have claimed to be one. With the help on my friends and only with their help, I have done most of the work to my car. Even though I farmed out my motor, paint and body, I'm still proud of what I have done. I can tear apart and put any car back together, and it doesn't make me a builder.

I have a lot of respect for my buddies that are true car builders. It's one hell of a lot of work, and no matter how nice it is, you always have someone that wants to pick it apart. Then again, most people that critize a car, doesn't have a damn clue of what it takes. :banghead:

OK, I'm done now. Kenny...where did you say that beer was.

[Travis B]

Would one need to smelt iron ore, manganese, nickel, copper and bronze then take those raw elements and combine them into steel in order to manufacture their own sheet metal as well?


wouldn't hurt :poke:

[BADVELLE]

"I have seen their Theme Bikes"....(Sorry, it's a pet peve of mine.)



That's because most of the people that buy them, don't ride them. If they do, they don't have enough experience on a bike to tell that they are riding a P.O.S.

Yes, they have CNC mills and a CAD machine. Big freakin deal.
I have Solidworks on my computer at work. Does that mean I can design a bike with appropriate geometry? Can I design a 3-link rear suspension that will be effective? No. The output is only as good as the input. If you tell the CNC mill to make something, it'll do it. It dosen't care if the geometry is right, or if it is engineered appropriately.

The amount of in house equipment they have is not relevant. The end result is. The geometry on their bikes is crap. The riding positions aren't safe. But people buy 'em.


But I don't think the relative quality of OCC bikes is the point. What is the point is that people buy them regardless of the quality. People buy them because of the noterity created by a TV show. People buy them because it creates status among other people who also don't understand the difference between a bike built by OCC and a bike built by Perewitz or Mitchell. People buy them for the same reason 14 year old girls pay $108 (I'm serious, google it) for a hooded sweatshirt from Gwen Steffani.

Equally, people pay fat coin for a car from Boyd regardless of the quality. They buy it because it has his name on it and because it is expensive.
That is the difference between a collector and a real car guy. The real car guy wont accept shoddy workmanship and crap engineering because even if he has the means to have somone else build it he understands and appreciates the difference between an expensive P.O.S. and an expensive well built car. He understands the difference between a builder that is in it for a quick buck and a builder that cares about the product he creates. He understands because more than likely at one point in his life he did it himself because he had to. That guy is a real car guy, a real hot-rodder.

It is apparent that you either know someone that has bought a bike from OCC or have a grudge against someone, you sound borderline disgruntled! JMO. This thread was interesting for awhile, but I agree with Kenny, the beer is cold and it is beer-thirty! I am headed to the garage for some car therapy, PEACE!

BTW - I have seen a couple of the bikes OCC has built, I thought they looked awesome, but then again I am must be missing something. LOL

[MarkM66]

BTW - I have seen a couple of the bikes OCC has built, I thought they looked awesome, but then again I am must be missing something. LOL

You're just not expertly trained like some are, ;-) .

[BADVELLE]

You're just not expertly trained like some are, ;-) .

This is getting very obvious, oh well, I am seriously heading out to the garage now, take care everyone! :twothumbs

[1sick65]

[QUOTE=MarkM66]You're just not expertly trained like some are, ;-)

Is there a class I can take for this???:enguard:

[MarkM66]

[QUOTE=MarkM66]You're just not expertly trained like some are, ;-)

Is there a class I can take for this???:enguard:

Just don't expect to learn anything from Travis. :spank2:

[1sick65]

[QUOTE=MarkM66]

Just don't expect to learn anything from Travis. :spank2:


Let's see, so far Travis has taught me a lot. Like how to get away from security while taking a leak in the bushes of a 5-star hotel at 3 a.m. You know the important stuff.

[MarkM66]

[QUOTE=MarkM66]

Just don't expect to learn anything from Travis. :spank2:


Let's see, so far Travis has taught me a lot. Like how to get away from security while taking a leak in the bushes of a 5-star hotel at 3 a.m. You know the important stuff.

That is good stuff. I'm going to inroll in one of his classes at GG DesMoines or Columbus this year. :rotfl:

[kennyd]

[QUOTE=MarkM66]

Just don't expect to learn anything from Travis. :spank2:


Let's see, so far Travis has taught me a lot. Like how to get away from security while taking a leak in the bushes of a 5-star hotel at 3 a.m. You know the important stuff.

forgot the security guard was a homo !
or how to piss off the waitress at the italian restraunt by making rude things out of your spegatti (sp?) and meatballs and a sasuage

[Travis B]

Ileave for 10 min and come back to this.....

yes I have been known to get a little out of hand at car shows...
Free enrollment to anyone that can keep up :Alchy: :Alchy: ..hey and this year I'll be legal :git:

[Doug Cooper]

thats the nomad that was on display with dupont ? red / cream .. nice car

Kenny, that was the one. By the time Michael Anthony paid the 8% and got it home he was lookin at about 150,000. plus sales tax! Lopez told me before the bidding he was looking for 100,000, he was happy.

I told Michael when he's done with it to give me a call. That would make a great driver!

[1sick65]

[QUOTE=kennyd

forgot the security guard was a homo !
or how to piss off the waitress at the italian restraunt by making rude things out of your spegatti (sp?) and meatballs and a sasuage.


I heard that he's not a very good wing man. He didn't even offer to jump on the grenade for Adam. I just wish I could remember her name so I could say good bye.

[kennyd]

Kenny, that was the one. By the time Michael Anthony paid the 8% and got it home he was lookin at about 150,000. plus sales tax! Lopez told me before the bidding he was looking for 100,000, he was happy.

I told Michael when he's done with it to give me a call. That would make a great driver!


does micheal a still own the b400 ? that was a badddd ride . what did you want with the nomad i dodnt have a sb2 in it .

[vanzuuk1]

A friend of mine is really into classic rock, rush, van halen, e.l.p etc. He asked me "how come if you ride, you dont like occ?" I told him its like asking "if you like rock how come you dont like poison or bon jovi?" He said "now I get it".

My friend Chris works for american iron magazine and he appears briefly in the first episode, he said paul sr. is a super guy.

You can also try and picture a hot rod with wrenches welded to the body and painted in snap on colors, you would laugh.

Again, just my opinion, most occ fans would hate my bike.

[Damn True]

It is apparent that you either know someone that has bought a bike from OCC or have a grudge against someone, you sound borderline disgruntled! JMO.

No, but I have owned enough bikes, built a few, and know enough builders to recognize quality workmanship, craftsmanship and engineering when I see it.
By virtue of that it fries me when I hear during a discussion about motorcycles, "Oh, I really like the stuff that OCC builds." because the statement is made by somone who clearly has no idea what a quality bike is.

The reason I brought them up in the first place is the fact that they have their level of recognition not by virtue of the quality of their work, or design, but because they have a silly "Reality TV" show on Discovery. That is about the only reason why their bikes sell and they sell to goons that before they saw the show couldn't tell a chopper

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

from a chopper

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[Damn True]

...anyway, the OCC thing got us waaaaaay off topic. What I was saying was:


What some of us DO have a distaste for though (I won't use the term "hater" because I'm not 16 years old) is the guy who simply wants to "buy-in".
Knows nothing of what went into the car.
Is clueless as to the process.
Has no knowledge of the technical details of the car.
Is barely able to appreciate the difference in craftsmanship between what Bobby Alloway does and some of the 20 footers that Boyd has produced of late. They are buying the car because it is a status symbol for them. A red badge of honor to display to their equally clueless friends and exclaim, "I bought this from the famous Boyd Coddington for $150k."
These guys don't have an appreciation for high-level craftsmanship or engineering. For those of you who are builders the only status you have in their eyes is predicated on what you sold your last car for, not how well you built it and if the next flavor of the week builder crops up at next years BJ auction you will be dropped by those guys like a bad habit because what you do has zero value to them.

The people that buy bikes from OCC or finished cars w/o being part of the process of their creation are not bikers or car guys, they are collectors of Objets D'art.

Yeah, those collectors have fat wallets and I don't knock anyone who can tap into that. You gotta pay your bills just like I gotta pay mine. But I refuse, as do many others, to regard a collector of Objet D'art (or "check-writer" if you will) in the same manner as I do someone who bends their own wrench. I have a whole lot higher regard for someone that builds a car, even if its an average to below average finished product than I do somone that simply "buys-in".

[BADVELLE]

Yeah, those collectors have fat wallets and I don't knock anyone who can tap into that. You gotta pay your bills just like I gotta pay mine. But I refuse, as do many others, to regard a collector of Objet D'art (or "check-writer" if you will) in the same manner as I do someone who bends their own wrench. I have a whole lot higher regard for someone that builds a car, even if its an average to below average finished product than I do somone that simply "buys-in".

I agree with this statement in some manner. However, like it was said earlier, some of the people that have them built are hands on, just might not have the TIME or TALENT to make it happen. I for one try anything and mess up alot, but I learn and move on. Also, I don't have the fat wallet to have someone build a ride for me, as most of us don't, at least at this time. Otherwise, I would go to one of the top builders in the country, take your pick and have at least the parts of the build done that I can't handle (ie, suspension mod's) in my modestly equipped shop/garage.

Anyway, good talk to all and to all a very good night!!!!

[Damn True]

You are absolutely right. Which is why I also said:



Bill, I don't think anyone has a problem with a situation such as yours or Bob the Cuda-guy (sounds like Larry the Cable-Guy) Johnson. You were involved in every step of the creation of Billy Goat. You can recite chapter and verse the technical details of the car. You are a car guy and to other car guys that is readilly identifiable and much respected.

[vanzuuk1]

If I were suddenly to become wealthy, "f@#$-you wealthy", I would have a troy or chip car built asap. I would also build a nice shop and start building for myself.

Its nice to dream, but i am still happy with my modest toys, some people take the bus to work.

[Bob Johnson]

A friend of mine is really into classic rock, rush, van halen, e.l.p etc. He asked me "how come if you ride, you dont like occ?" I told him its like asking "if you like rock how come you dont like poison or bon jovi?" He said "now I get it".

My friend Chris works for american iron magazine and he appears briefly in the first episode, he said paul sr. is a super guy.

You can also try and picture a hot rod with wrenches welded to the body and painted in snap on colors, you would laugh.

Again, just my opinion, most occ fans would hate my bike.
a wrench or two in key places might have been neat..but they had them all over that bike..the wormanship left a lot to be desired..they design wasn't any better..I like the Exile style bike ..Covington, Jaffe, Hank Young,Chico,etc. all do quality stuff..you aren't going to build a quality piece in a few weeks..how could they ask $100K for a bike built in 3 weeks by 2 or 3 guys? Most OCc fans wouldn't know a good bike if it ran over them. I'd like to have their PR guy promoting my shi*..he's good//real good..almost as good as the PR guy for Unique..sell sand boxes in the Sahara desert

[southernfriedcj]

I won't use the term "hater" because I'm not 16 years old

LMAO!:bsjerk:

[Bob Johnson]

...anyway, the OCC thing got us waaaaaay off topic. What I was saying was:


What some of us DO have a distaste for though (I won't use the term "hater" because I'm not 16 years old) is the guy who simply wants to "buy-in".
Knows nothing of what went into the car.
Is clueless as to the process.
Has no knowledge of the technical details of the car.
Is barely able to appreciate the difference in craftsmanship between what Bobby Alloway does and some of the 20 footers that Boyd has produced of late. They are buying the car because it is a status symbol for them. A red badge of honor to display to their equally clueless friends and exclaim, "I bought this from the famous Boyd Coddington for $150k."
These guys don't have an appreciation for high-level craftsmanship or engineering. For those of you who are builders the only status you have in their eyes is predicated on what you sold your last car for, not how well you built it and if the next flavor of the week builder crops up at next years BJ auction you will be dropped by those guys like a bad habit because what you do has zero value to them.

The people that buy bikes from OCC or finished cars w/o being part of the process of their creation are not bikers or car guys, they are collectors of Objets D'art.

Yeah, those collectors have fat wallets and I don't knock anyone who can tap into that. You gotta pay your bills just like I gotta pay mine. But I refuse, as do many others, to regard a collector of Objet D'art (or "check-writer" if you will) in the same manner as I do someone who bends their own wrench. I have a whole lot higher regard for someone that builds a car, even if its an average to below average finished product than I do somone that simply "buys-in".
by far and away the coolest guy in this game is George Poteet. He has around 15 cars under construction right now. He has vision,money,imagination,knowledge,experience,tast e,on and on. He likes finding a new builder and making him well known thru his finished car. He also uses Troy, Brizio,etc quite a bit. No one can approximate what he has tought others thru his creations. Very few guys are like Roy Pigford..ie design and hands on build a car to super high quality standards..it don't matter how you drive..it's how you arrive..you show me 100 guys that built their own cars, I'll show you 99 that aren't going to teach me squat. I want inspiration..excitement..when I look at a car..more power to a guy that turns his own wrenches and designs his own stuff..but I seriously doubt many of them are going to teach, inspire, or excite many guys that get in the circle.

[Bob Johnson]

You're just not expertly trained like some are, ;-) .
I think this would apply..you might be a redneck if you think OCC Choppers are cool looking..hope Paul Sr. doesn't see this..my head isn't pretty but i don't want it pinched off..I don't think his boot would feel to good up my as*

[Bob Johnson]

thats the nomad that was on display with dupont ? red / cream .. nice car
Ol Cooper was too busy rubbing weenies with the high rollers in the sky box is what you meant to say

[Bob Johnson]

How did OCC sell out? They had nothing to sell. Boyd had an established name in the hot rod world. He was the man to go to for a cool custom in the '80 & '90's.

OCC was in the basement of there Iron works shop. The show has made them all the money. So you can't say they sold out. The made there money by the advertisement that these companies pay to have theme bikes built. The theme bike as far as I know aren't bike you ride.
Paul Sr. takes them out for a few miles then thats probably all they get ridden.
they make their money off clothing man..like a Harley Shop..the money is in the accesories

[Bob Johnson]

i really dig boyds cars , my top 10 of all time includes 4 of boyds cars ! whattahey,boydair,led zephry , vern luce coupe, the polara could move into spot 10 and push out a nice car .

i hate popole using the term " checkwriter" thats just like using the " n " word
you wouldn't be politicing for a Boyd pick would you? and you've inspected all of these cars very close have you?

[dougs68ss]

wow! its gone tooo far ,the garlic chopper is way cool! i know we didnt build our houses BUT you mean to say youve never changed the cabinets, retiled ,hung a little wallpaper? repainted juniors room in a star wars theme? THATS LIVING GOOD MAN! same as the car.. beers on me come on over....

[96Z28SS]

a wrench or two in key places might have been neat..but they had them all over that bike..the wormanship left a lot to be desired..they design wasn't any better...how could they ask $100K for a bike built in 3 weeks by 2 or 3 guys?

I'd say that 90% of there theme bikes are over done. The Snap on bike was one and the Miller bike was another. I mean really does a chopper need to pull a welder. They ask so much money for there bikes cause its advertisement that they are selling. They are selling 2 hours of air time building a bike. You can't buy 2 hours on a national tv channel for $100k so these companies see an awesome deal. There name and products get shown and mentioned continually for the 2 episodes.

They do have a great marketing and sales team working for them. The occ logo is on everything now.

[kennyd]

you wouldn't be politicing for a Boyd pick would you? and you've inspected all of these cars very close have you?


got one already , as you have .

boyd -air for its time , was a wicked car
vern luce coupe , that was the car that started the modern street rod movement.
lead zephry , just a wicked looking car , other that the 3 shades of yellow .
whatthey , i just like that car . dont care for the idiot that owned it .
as for boyd ........... i be polite and say i dont care if he ever shows up at a show again .

dont worry bob , your 46woody is in my top 10 !

[kennyd]

Ol Cooper was too busy rubbing weenies with the high rollers in the sky box is what you meant to say



oh boy , bob , is doug you other son ?

[Bob Johnson]

I'd say that 90% of there theme bikes are over done. The Snap on bike was one and the Miller bike was another. I mean really does a chopper need to pull a welder. They ask so much money for there bikes cause its advertisement that they are selling. They are selling 2 hours of air time building a bike. You can't buy 2 hours on a national tv channel for $100k so these companies see an awesome deal. There name and products get shown and mentioned continually for the 2 episodes.

They do have a great marketing and sales team working for them. The occ logo is on everything now.
I'm not talking about the corporate bikes, I'm talking about some clown that just buys a bike from them or orders a bike to be built. Hell I could build that stuff..they don't make the frames or suspension etc..sometimes they build a tank but generally they sub nearly everything out..lots of dough for that

[Bob Johnson]

oh boy , bob , is doug you other son ?
he needs to adopt me..he's the one that retired at 40 and lives the life of Riley..He could sell his house for more than I'm worth..

[kennyd]

he needs to adopt me..he's the one that retired at 40 and lives the life of Riley..He could sell his house for more than I'm worth..


how much YOU are worth ?, or how much your assetts are worth ?

[Bob Johnson]

you wouldn't be politicing for a Boyd pick would you? and you've inspected all of these cars very close have you?
You didn't understand what I asked..I asked are you politicing for a Boyd pick..at a future show? His early stuff was great. It's after he went under and came back as B Coddington that I question.. I wish he would get it back together because he was a positive influence on this game..I feel for him because i had a crew of idiots here that screwed up nearly everything they touched..I have a big empty shop over here now..not worth the hassle..that's why Alan builds all my stuff..

[Bob Johnson]

how much YOU are worth ?, or how much your assetts are worth ?
I'd tell you but then I'd have to kill you. I'm no Poteet or Doug Cooper I'll assure you..like a brother that lives in a shack and drives a new shiny car..

[EFI69Cam]

by far and away the coolest guy in this game is George Poteet. He has around 15 cars under construction right now. He has vision,money,imagination,knowledge,experience,tast e,on and on. He likes finding a new builder and making him well known thru his finished car. He also uses Troy, Brizio,etc quite a bit. No one can approximate what he has tought others thru his creations. Very few guys are like Roy Pigford..ie design and hands on build a car to super high quality standards..it don't matter how you drive..it's how you arrive..you show me 100 guys that built their own cars, I'll show you 99 that aren't going to teach me squat. I want inspiration..excitement..when I look at a car..more power to a guy that turns his own wrenches and designs his own stuff..but I seriously doubt many of them are going to teach, inspire, or excite many guys that get in the circle.

I don't think Mr True's intention was to compare self builders to professional car builders. To build a car and actually turn a profit at it is an amazing feat, my hat is off to anyone who can do it.

The guys he is talking about, and the guys that irritate me, are the checkbook warriors. The checkbook warriors do serve a purpose though, they are the ones who have tripled the value of my car in the last 5 years.

[kennyd]

You didn't understand what I asked..I asked are you politicing for a Boyd pick..at a future show? His early stuff was great. It's after he went under and came back as B Coddington that I question.. I wish he would get it back together because he was a positive influence on this game..I feel for him because i had a crew of idiots here that screwed up nearly everything they touched..I have a big empty shop over here now..not worth the hassle..that's why Alan builds all my stuff..


no , ( i actually wish there were no boyds pro-picks at goodguys ) just trying to state that boyd was a very good builder . he still has some good ideas in that head . i also wish he would get it together and build some killer cars again .

[Bob Johnson]

You show me 100 guys that build cars for a profit, and I'll show you 99 of them don't build quality..It's virtually impossible to build a quality car on speculation and turn a profit..Quality cost...that last couple of percent in quality nearly doubles the cost to build..the sick part is 99.9% of the people viewing it will never notice the difference..and sadly that includes collector car guys that just can't see the difference..you put my Cuda in a room with the Motion Camaro..get 100 people..50 of them will probably think the Camaro is as nice..cost less than a third to build..they don't see the one off stuff..go to a bike show..guy buys himself a New bike..puts 15K worth of bolt on chrome crap..most people will like it better than an Exile or Jaffe, or Covington bike..checkbook writers make this world go round..not some budget guy building a low buck car in his garage..George Poteet is a checkbook guy to a degree..he has more influence on this sport than all the budget guys combined..Jealousy will get you nowhere..work hard, save your bucks, then you can be a checkwriter and put a positive spin on this game..

[kennyd]

I'd tell you but then I'd have to kill you. I'm no Poteet or Doug Cooper I'll assure you..like a brother that lives in a shack and drives a new shiny car..


re-read my comment , i was not asking you how much you are worth .

[baz67]

I am closing this thread because it now has become hostle again. The moderators cooled one yesterday, now this. Guys sit back and think before you type.