Hotchkis 2" lowering springs, really 1"

[crazyfireman]

I purchased a set of 2" lowering front coil springs for my car and I may have gotten 1" out of them. I purchased the right SBCs, the car has been driven hard over as many "bumps" as I could find and still it only sits about 1" lower. I do not know what ruler they are using but it kind of sucks to buy new springs, install, and then have to cut them. All I can say is there wifes might believe its 8" but there measuring stick is broken!!!

[Y-TRY]

I see that you have driven them some, so I can't explain that. But I can tell you that mine settled a ton after regular use. I was very worried when I first installed them, though.

[crazyfireman]

Well maybe there is still hope I only have around 300 miles on them but I try to kit some bumps! Thanks

[Damn True]

I'd give it a month or two of daily driving before you broke out the cutoff wheel.

[Rick Dorion]

Give it some time. Bumps won't do it but gravity/time may :)

[6'9"Witha69]

I'd give it a month or two of daily driving before you broke out the cutoff wheel.
My advice exactly.

[PonchoJohn]

Remember that the drop amount is from a new suspension, not a worn, spring sagging setup.
If your suspension was not factory fresh, this could easily account for the difference in height.

[crazyfireman]

I will give it time, thanks for the hope! I will definately wait for a couple months because once I cut them I cant add it back!!

[Norwoodx55]

I will give it time, thanks for the hope! I will definately wait for a couple months because once I cut them I cant add it back!!

Been there, done that. :pat:

[dhardison]

Been there, done that. :pat:

Ditto....... (scrape, scrape, rub, rub)

Dan

[69Nova]

Hey Dan I see your car was in the new Super Chevy in there coverage from one of their shows :twothumbs .

[sinned]

Remember that the drop amount is from a new suspension, not a worn, spring sagging setup.
If your suspension was not factory fresh, this could easily account for the difference in height.
Ding, ding, ding...we have a winner. Guys are always bitching about spring builders "screwing up" when advertising the amount of drop but nobody ever starts the spec ride height the car came with as new (which is the height the spring builder uses to determine the drop). Always ask for more than drop than you actually want to compensate for the spring sag your current springs have in them.



For what its worth, "good" springs will not drop progressively over a few months. A good spring will take set almost immediately, if your springs progressively are dropping as time goes on that is a sign of a poorly built spring.

[crazyfireman]

So if what you are saying is correct, if you start with a worn suspension you will get less than the 2"? Just to be clear I rebuilt my suspension with stock springs then measured, came up with my desired drop which was 2" and still only got 1"

[dhardison]

Hey Dan I see your car was in the new Super Chevy in there coverage from one of their shows :twothumbs .

SERIOUSLY?!?!?!?!?!?!?! I haven't rec'd my copy yet.

Dan

[69Nova]

SERIOUSLY?!?!?!?!?!?!?! I haven't rec'd my copy yet.

Yup. I just got my march issue yesterday. It's on page 110.

[dhardison]

Yup. I just got my march issue yesterday. It's on page 110.

I just ran to the store and picked up a copy. Pretty dang cool! I guess my name is Don now........ :lmao:

Dan

[CarlC]

Ding, ding, ding...we have a winner. Guys are always bitching about spring builders "screwing up" when advertising the amount of drop but nobody ever starts the spec ride height the car came with as new (which is the height the spring builder uses to determine the drop). Always ask for more than drop than you actually want to compensate for the spring sag your current springs have in them.



For what its worth, "good" springs will not drop progressively over a few months. A good spring will take set almost immediately, if your springs progressively are dropping as time goes on that is a sign of a poorly built spring.

Exactly. My Landrum springs did not settle at all.

It's impossible to specify the amount that a car will lower, or raise. Each car is different. Is it stock with A/C, iron heads, every option under the sun, or, is it non-A/C, lot of alumunum, stripped of non-essentials? Both have different front end weights, and will have different ride heights when the same spring is used.

After dealing with standard springs and then using an adjustable system, I'll never use a standard setup again. The cost is comparable, but the hassle factor is much lower.

[dhardison]

Exactly. My Landrum springs did not settle at all.

It's impossible to specify the amount that a car will lower, or raise. Each car is different. Is it stock with A/C, iron heads, every option under the sun, or, is it non-A/C, lot of alumunum, stripped of non-essentials? Both have different front end weights, and will have different ride heights when the same spring is used.

After dealing with standard springs and then using an adjustable system, I'll never use a standard setup again. The cost is comparable, but the hassle factor is much lower.

Carl, I was checking out your web site to find out more info on your Landrum spring/adjuster setup. Some of your pics are not displaying, specifically the pic of your spring/adjuster (http://www.geocities.com/casanoc/rbspring.JPG). Do you have that pic you could post here or send to me directly via PM or email?

Thanks,
Dan

[sinned]

pic of springs and adjusters-

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[protour_chevelle]

So on the topic of settling springs.... I have Afco's front and back and doubt they will settle.... But why does my car sit **** eyed? I measured the springs(took them out) and they are the same height. Un bolted the sway bar and bounced the car around....Still crooked. Its out by an inch. Driving me NUTS. It sat flat when I first put the springs in then when I jacked the car up to work under it, it went to ****.

-Matt

[CarlC]

Sounds like you viewed the site just as it hit the transfer limit. Try again in a while.

Here's the photo. They are made by Landrum. The 1/4" deep helix on the top is so that the adjuster will seat flat in upper spring pocket.

ATS also makes them with the helix and a retaining bolt already attached. From a labor vs. cost standpoint, the ATS setup is a better deal.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://img61.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscn02502jy.jpg)

[sunkistcamaro]

Hi guys,
I guess I have a different situation..
I bought the Hotchkis front springs, the sbc springs and my car is WAY to low. I measure 23 1/4" to the top of the wheel well opening.
The only thing different from the stock weight is Aluminum heads, intake and headers but I added a 700r4 so that should have evened it out. I’m not sure what way to go, should I get the big block springs or just go coil over?
Thanks

[sinned]

Should also note that Hotchkis has on more than one occasion mis-boxed springs....

[vanzuuk1]

Carl I have those landrum adjusters waiting to go in, can you explain the helix and retaining nut? I wasnt sure if I needed to weld the adjusters to the control arm or not.

What keeps them from self adjusting? Whats the easiest way to adjust them once the car is together?

Basic questions , but I havent seen them used before.

[vanzuuk1]

Bill Use the adjusters, no?

[sunkistcamaro]

Dirk,
I read this thread a little late lastnight. The adjusters do look like the way to go! When do you plan on putting yours in?

Dennis,
Im going to give them a call just to verify the part number on the spring.

Thanks

[sinned]

Guys, to use those adjusters you have to use a special coil spring, not any springs will work. They have to be either 5.0X9.5 or 5.5X9.5 to work. The adjuster does not get welded in; it just sits in the upper seat. Adjustment requires breaking the lower ball joint loose to gain access to the adjuster, quick and easy like a coil-over or weight jack? No, but it is nice to be able to have the adjustment for fine tuning ride height.
The weigh tof the vehicle on the spring keeps the adjuster from moving in it's own.

[Damn True]

Also Carl. What is the appropriate free length of the spring to go with the adjuster?
What rate did you settle on?

[JayBird]

When the springs were installed, did you tighten the lower control arm bolts with the car on jackstands or under full weight. Not having the full weight of car when tightening can cause this.

Also, it could be the wrong springs as mentioned before. Ditto on what Dennis said...Good springs dont loose height as its driven.

[CarlC]

From my website:

Here's a photo of the spring and adjuster that the car now has. The spring is a Landrum part number B700. It's 5" in diameter, 9.5" long, and has a 700#/in rate. One end of the spring is open (lower A-arm) and the other is closed (flat for the adjuster). The adjuster part number is LSS320. Please check with Landrum to verify that these are the correct parts for your car.

Note the helix cut on the top of the adjuster.This is so the adjuster will seat flat in the upper spring pocket. The helix is 1/4" deep. Using tape as a guide and a 4" slitting blade/grinder the job will go quickly. You can also weld a nut to the top of the helix and fasten the adjuster to the frame. There is already a hole in the frame.

The nice thing about this setup is that the ride height can be adjusted in about an hour. After you do it several times you will become very proficient at taking the spring out!

After dealing with cutting springs and fighting to get the correct ride height, there is no way I will ever use anything else besides an adjustable system. It's so easy to use and is goof-proof, which is good for me since I seem to do every job twice!

David Pozzi has some good photos of 1st gen springs and suspension tuning tips on his website. He has a lot of information on suspension, brakes, steering, and general Camaro technical issues.

END END END

Instead of welding a nut, a short stud can be welded to the top of the adjuter. The location is dictated by a corresponding hole in the frame.

After a few tries, the ride height can be re-set in about an hour.

Ditto on everything Dennis said.

[Damn True]

Where does your car sit in regard to the range of adjustment on those things?
They have a 2" range right?

[CarlC]

Using a stock lower arm, approx 1.1" gap between the sections.

[Damn True]

Do you mean you have 1.1" of thread showing on the adjuster?

Any advantage you think to running the Speedtech lower arms as well? Or would that be superflous?

I think I'd like to be a touch lower on my car. I plan to run the same tire/wheel dimensions. But, I think I'd like to have the front fender arch mask about 1/2 of the sidewall and have the rear arch mask just the tread at the top of the tire.

With a 275 in the front is there room to go a bit lower than your car?

[CarlC]

Yes, exposed thread.

What advantage are you thinking for an aftermarket arm? I'm confused, which is normal for me.

Yes, there is room to go lower, but it does adversely affect handling. I've had the car lower, but it gets twitchy and darty, especially under braking. For best all-around handling, keeping the center of the front lower A-arm bolt 1/2" higher than the center of the sphere in the lower ball joint at ride height will help to average out geometry changes. With a 275/40/17 tire, the distance from the ground to the center of the front A-arm bolt will be approx. 9-1/2".

To get the look, it would be better to use a 1/2-height body mount to allow for a bit more drop.

If you find that the spring is a bit too long, it's easy to just trim a bit off the open side.

From a practicallity side, going much lower could create ground clearance problems.

[Damn True]

Yes, exposed thread.

What advantage are you thinking for an aftermarket arm? I'm confused, which is normal for me.

Yes, there is room to go lower, but it does adversely affect handling. I've had the car lower, but it gets twitchy and darty, especially under braking. For best all-around handling, keeping the center of the front lower A-arm bolt 1/2" higher than the center of the sphere in the lower ball joint at ride height will help to average out geometry changes. With a 275/40/17 tire, the distance from the ground to the center of the front A-arm bolt will be approx. 9-1/2".

To get the look, it would be better to use a 1/2-height body mount to allow for a bit more drop.

If you find that the spring is a bit too long, it's easy to just trim a bit off the open side.

From a practicallity side, going much lower could create ground clearance problems.


Confused? That makes two of us. Must be a generational thing.

Just wondering if there might be an advantage in terms of overall system rigidity, or if the spring pocket might be lower..ya know?

The geometry bit is facinating. I'd be interested in getting Tyler in on this to see what the effect of the ATS spindle (which I plan on using) might be on the math part (it's 11:45 and I've had too much wine tonight for math).

Was the rear end lowered a comensurate amount when you experienced the darty effect?

As for the 1/2" pucks.....won't that give me fits with the trans hitting the tunnel?

Ground clearance.....hmmm, gotta measure the speed bumps in the area of the new house. This is gonna be a street car as well.....good stuff my man. Thanks for helping to keep my head out of the.......um......clouds....yeah, the clouds.

[vanzuuk1]

Carl I actually have the non extended version, so i dont cut anything, it just sits in the pocket in the frame, correct?

[protour_chevelle]

Carl I actually have the non extended version, so i dont cut anything, it just sits in the pocket in the frame, correct?

I can't see how that will fit right in the top spring pocket... Its going to fit worse then the extended version without being cut(to sit flat). Unless you get a round peice of 1/8" metal and weld it in to the top of the spring pocket to have a flat mounting surface. Unless theres something I'm missing?

-Matt

[sinned]

Carl I actually have the non extended version, so i dont cut anything, it just sits in the pocket in the frame, correct?Your car is going to be WAY too low using the short version of the adjuster.

[protour_chevelle]

Your car is going to be WAY too low using the short version of the adjuster.

Well before we say that... What is the spring height of the spring you are using van?

-Matt

[vanzuuk1]

The spring is nine and a half inches tall.

[protour_chevelle]

The spring is nine and a half inches tall.

Wow, your going to be LOW! Too low. I'm running 9.5 with the extended version(like Dennis), and lowered all the way the car is almost too low for our roads.

-Matt

[vanzuuk1]

Any chance the chevelle and camaro springs have a different free length?

[vanzuuk1]

I just checked the speedway website and unless I am wrong the part number on the box is for the tall adjuster but the box contains the shorter adjuster. Balls.

[protour_chevelle]

If you have a 9.5 inch free height spring its going to be the same for Camaro or Chevelle.

Extended Version..... 91645552

Non Extended Version..... 91645551

BTW, Speedway is AWESOME about returns. Just send them back and they will be glad to get you the right parts!

-Matt

[sunkistcamaro]

Dirk,
The hotchkis ones that Im returning has a free length of 12" and are 600 lbs.

[CarlC]

Confused? That makes two of us. Must be a generational thing.

Just wondering if there might be an advantage in terms of overall system rigidity, or if the spring pocket might be lower..ya know?

The geometry bit is facinating. I'd be interested in getting Tyler in on this to see what the effect of the ATS spindle (which I plan on using) might be on the math part (it's 11:45 and I've had too much wine tonight for math).

Was the rear end lowered a comensurate amount when you experienced the darty effect?

As for the 1/2" pucks.....won't that give me fits with the trans hitting the tunnel?

Ground clearance.....hmmm, gotta measure the speed bumps in the area of the new house. This is gonna be a street car as well.....good stuff my man. Thanks for helping to keep my head out of the.......um......clouds....yeah, the clouds.

From a theoretical standpoint, the ends of the spring should be moment and radially released from the system, hence only providing an axial load. Fortunately, there's not much travel in actual use, so variations in spring-to-seat centerlines during suspension travel will be small.


There's no geometry changes with the spring adjusters. However, the combination of the ATS spindle + aftermarket A-arm + del-a-lum or similar bushing + adjustable spring + re-valved Bilstein + 600-series Saginaw box = one heck of a setup for a stock subframe.

The rear ride height was lowered as well. It was strictly a front ride height issue. That's why my front ride height is not quite as low as what is consdered really low, but for me it's a requirement. Most really low 1st gen cars look great, but for a reality check take a peek at the front bump stops. Usually the car is riding on them.

Which transmission?

That other adjuster won't work without a lot of work.

[Damn True]

That is precisely the setup I am shooting for. It should be pretty darn good. Particularly in light of the cage that is planned to tie that sub to the rest of the car.

The plan is for a TKO unless I trip over a T-56 for an absurd price.

[CarlC]

If TKO I would suggest not using the 1/2-height bushings unless you cut the tunnel. There's not enough room. Using the stock small-block engine brackets the first thing that will hit is the breather.

[vanzuuk1]

Thanks for the info so far, better to find out now than when my car is on the lift.

1)Do you need the retaining bolt, or does it just help keep the adjuster planted when you spin the lower piece?

2)Is it worth notching the collar so you can use an old screwdriver and a mallet to adust the ride height. If you jacked the car up could you spin the adjuster that way or do you need to compress the spring and spin the adjuster by hand?

3)Is anyone running the ats spindle on a car yet?

4) Why isnt it better to use a longer spring and a short adjuster, does an f body run out of suspension travel before it sees the coil bind?

Bear with me, I have done a lot of bike stuff but this is uncharted territory.

[CarlC]

Thanks for the info so far, better to find out now than when my car is on the lift.

1)Do you need the retaining bolt, or does it just help keep the adjuster planted when you spin the lower piece?

2)Is it worth notching the collar so you can use an old screwdriver and a mallet to adust the ride height. If you jacked the car up could you spin the adjuster that way or do you need to compress the spring and spin the adjuster by hand?

3)Is anyone running the ats spindle on a car yet?

4) Why isnt it better to use a longer spring and a short adjuster, does an f body run out of suspension travel before it sees the coil bind?

Bear with me, I have done a lot of bike stuff but this is uncharted territory.

1) No, the stud/nut is not necessary, it just makes it a bit easier to install the spring/adjuster assembly. I do not have it on mine.

2) Won't work unless you cut an access window in the subframe. It's really not necessary since the adjustment can be made in an hour or two by breaking the balljoint loose. The ratio of spring to wheel movement is approx. 0.5:1, so if you want to lower the car 1", shorten the adjuster by 1/2".

3) Not yet on a regular sale basis, I believe.

4) A shorter adjuster can be used as long as it has sufficient adjustment to accomodate the required ride height changes and that you order the correct spring length. The problem IMO with the other adjuster shown in this thread is that it will require significant modifications to work properly in an F-body chassis and the required length is not known. The currenly used type that is also being discussed here is a known entity with no re-engineering required to make it work. Coil bind is not a problem.

[vanzuuk1]

Thank you!

[protour_chevelle]

Thanks for the info so far, better to find out now than when my car is on the lift.

1)Do you need the retaining bolt, or does it just help keep the adjuster planted when you spin the lower piece?

2)Is it worth notching the collar so you can use an old screwdriver and a mallet to adust the ride height. If you jacked the car up could you spin the adjuster that way or do you need to compress the spring and spin the adjuster by hand?

I can only answer these 2 questions....

You do not need the retaining bolt. Reason being, and answer question #2 is that you have to break the upper or lower ball joint to get at the adjuster.... You can not reach the adjuster when it is in the car, even when it is jacked up. Thats why when you get good at it, you can adjust both sides within an hour(like mentioned above).

-Matt

[vanzuuk1]

Hey guys , thanks for catching my brain fart, you saved me a lot of aggravation. All is well now.