Too much money for re-sale projects?

[badazz81z28]

What yall think? I know people put a lot of time and money into their projects, but when it comes time to sell, are people asking too much?

You take a 69 Camaro, put a few mods on it and people want $50K when there’s a lot to go. I saw a car that isn’t even painted and they want six figures!

who’s buying project cars for more money than you could buy a 10k mile 6th gen Camaro? Or a C6 Z06?

[CSG]

I think we are probably asking too much. I know mine hasn't sold at 75. 69, fully painted, DSE, 495 LS3, basically everything to finish it included. I guess that most guys with higher end projects have enough money that they aren't that concerned with selling them, so they price them somewhere where they don't lose a ton and then sit on them.

[stab6902]

Yes, I think we're currently in a "buyers market" for incomplete pro-touring builds (and maybe even pro-touring cars as a whole).

Both parts and labor have increased a lot over the past handful of years. Painting with a broad brush, most middle class guys have less discretionary spending power than before, and as you mentioned, a lot of newer cars seem like a great value in comparison. You can make a great case financially for keeping your classic car build mild and buying a newer Corvette, Camaro, Mustang, etc for the track. Maybe not as cool, but probably safer and more financially responsible.

[Pro Touring Store]

To answer "who's buying them" - I don't know lol. But, I can tell you that now days, at a shop it's easy to spend well over 100k before the car gets painted. So if they have a car listed for 120k and there's $80k in parts and 100k in labor already done, well that sounds like the buyer is ahead.

I could see a shop owner seeing value in that, and proposing to a client "hey this one will cost $40k less at the end because most of the hard stuff was already done" or something. But as a DIY'er definitely can't see much of a market for that lol.

-Dale

[CSG]

I made good progress on mine & then health has shut it down. I did some math on what it would cost to have a shop do some of the time consuming work that is remaining and wow that added up fast. I was doing rough numbers at $125 an hour. 40 hours to finish the AAW harness, 10 hours to finish brake lines, etc., & the cost got really big really fast.

[badazz81z28]

That’s just one fact of reality, yeah if you intended to pay someone to build you a car, buying an unfinished project at $120k could be a great deal.

DIY, it’s hard to get someone to cover the expense you had paid to have work done. Also buyers don’t assume the “debt”. Meaning a car is supposed to have a working transmission, it’s not the potential buyers fault you paid $10k to get it overhauled and re-installed. I think people ask prices based on what they have in it, not what the buyer market says it worth.

[srode]

who’s buying project cars for more money than you could buy a 10k mile 6th gen Camaro? Or a C6 Z06?Sounds like you are a frustrated shopper? 6th gen Camaros and C6s are everywhere, a nice 1969 Camaro well done commands good money because they are much harder to find and expensive to build now days. Rusted out ones are going for $20K + some.

On the other hand asking price doesn't mean they are selling. Some are dreamers, but nicely priced ones sell in a day or two often. You just need to be ready to travel instantly and have cash in hand to buy good deals or catch one before it hits the market.

[79 Camaro]

Project cars can be a real crap shoot. If it has a a number of new or rebuilt parts I would want to see receipts for everything. When I sell one of my project cars the new owners get all receipts.
Body work is total crap shoot. Best to have the car/truck inspected by a body guy you trust.
The good thing about a project car with a lot of good parts you can get those parts for about half price.
As said above rusted out project cars some want 20K plus.
So my favorite unfinished project was a 67 Nova SS. Totally rust free. Original 327 long gone. PO got totally hoses from a somewhat local LS swap expert.
Before and after pics.219866219866

[badazz81z28]

Sounds like you are a frustrated shopper? 6th gen Camaros and C6s are everywhere, a nice 1969 Camaro well done commands good money because they are much harder to find and expensive to build now days. Rusted out ones are going for $20K + some.

On the other hand asking price doesn't mean they are selling. Some are dreamers, but nicely priced ones sell in a day or two often. You just need to be ready to travel instantly and have cash in hand to buy good deals or catch one before it hits the market.


That’s the funniest thing I’ve heard all day…you do realize GM made a quarter million Camaros each year of the first gen….they are truly a dime a dozen. Go to eBay..tons of them
You would be hard pressed to find some of these newer cars. GM only produced 50k 6th Gen’s and short of 28k Z06 from 06-13…..now that’s rare.

[srode]

That’s the funniest thing I’ve heard all day…you do realize GM made a quarter million Camaros each year of the first gen….they are truly a dime a dozen. Go to eBay..tons of them
Nice pro touring first getn's aren't dime a dozen, finished they can be $200k or more. They are hand built works of art that can take years to build vs an off the shelf car anyone can go buy.

[BonzoHansen]

Nice pro touring first getn's aren't dime a dozen, finished they can be $200k or more. They are hand built works of art that can take years to build vs an off the shelf car anyone can go buy.

sweet one just went for $230k on BAT this week.

[EnhancedAspiration]

Personally I wouldn't mind buying a project car knowing that I would be able to tackle most of the remainders myself.
I think one of the challenges is that there are a lot of uncertainties associated particularly with mechanical parts like motor, transmission etc. whether they are in good shape and functions as expected. As with any car, you'd buy the seller.

[Olds.PhD]

While "dime a dozen" may not be the most accurate statement, it is true that the first gen Camaro is one of, if not THE most popular pro-touring platform. They're everywhere and certainly not hard to find in pretty much any condition you want. Pretty hard to stand out with one of those these days - everything's been done.

Still, they're popular, so they'll always command a premium.

[badazz81z28]

Nice pro touring first getn's aren't dime a dozen, finished they can be $200k or more. They are hand built works of art that can take years to build vs an off the shelf car anyone can go buy.


I think you very much have a skewed perspective. Every, more like most PT cars are not the latest Detroit Speed or Kindig build. Most protouring cars out there are amateur built and they are everywhere at every level of quality. Go to eBay and see for yourself.

[Vimes]

...are amateur built and they are everywhere at every level of quality.

That part is a shame, really. Too many shops will only take on the job if you drop the carcass off with the expectation of a 6 figure turnkey project. This means people either cough up way too much money, or do substandard work they aren't qualified to do. Shops would do a lot more business and make far more money if they'd be more willing to do piecemeal work. There's a lot more people out there with 10,000 and a small need than there are people with 100,000 and are only interested in owning a finished product and not having something they built themselves. If shops were willing to just do the bits that people can't do themselves for whatever reason, even amateur level projects would be way better.

[dontlifttoshift]

Shops would do a lot more business and make far more money if they'd be more willing to do piecemeal work.

I can say with great certainty, that is not true.

[dhutton]

That part is a shame, really. Too many shops will only take on the job if you drop the carcass off with the expectation of a 6 figure turnkey project. This means people either cough up way too much money, or do substandard work they aren't qualified to do. Shops would do a lot more business and make far more money if they'd be more willing to do piecemeal work. There's a lot more people out there with 10,000 and a small need than there are people with 100,000 and are only interested in owning a finished product and not having something they built themselves. If shops were willing to just do the bits that people can't do themselves for whatever reason, even amateur level projects would be way better.
Most, if not all, decent shops have a waiting list. No need for piecemeal work that is going to be a PITA imo….

[Vimes]

We're gonna disagree on that one. For every guy who can afford a 6 figure turnkey project there's a thousand with 10 grand who just need a few things done. The turnkey jobs are just easier to manage.

[badazz81z28]

Seems to me, businesses rather build entire cars because it’s easier to manage and they can slap a brand on it when it’s done. I do think there is more money in small jobs, but it’s not exciting to a “builder” to do that. It would have actually been nice to have DSE install their parts on my car, but nope! They won’t do it…I probably have about $10k in odd ball labor in a period of a couple of weeks total.

I know not everyone is a crook, but doing a build from the ground up is also easier to squeeze you dry with labor.

[JLMounce]

I think it's a combination of all of the above. Shops currently are able to charge extreme premiums to build full cars. The money is there from people with no time or desire to build a car to just get one done from them. Guntherworks, Singer, Roadstershop, KinDigIt, Revology. These companies have waiting lists for cars that cost 300k-1M.

Then high quality builds cross the blocks in very public fashion in Kissimee, Scottsdale etc. It gives a perception that if a quality built 1969 Camaro restomod brought 150K at auction, surely my "nice" 1969 Camaro must be worth at least 50K.

It's a perception versus reality gap. The guy that can and wants to spend multiple six figures on a 1969 Camaro, is demanding perfection, they have no desire to deal with the issues of a "nice" car that "only" costs 50K.

That brings me to the DIY'ers of us. The guys that don't have all the skills, but have enough money that if we need to have a couple things done, we can. Yeah, there are a lot of us and we are competing for the same time and space with each other for a diminishing amount of good shops that do that type of work. We are just as much to blame, because we could learn the skill necessary to complete that work, but it's easier to pay to have it done.

Locally, if I wanted to have a DSE 4 Link installed, the labor quote is going to be 3-4x the price of parts and I'll probably have to wait 9-12 months to get my car into the shop.

All of this ads upward pressure on asking prices for all cars, even the ones that aren't pro builds. That doesn't mean the cars are going to sell for those asking prices though. If you can prove that what you've built provides OEM level reliability with precision craftsmanship and quality materials, there's a buyer that will give you 6 figures for your car. People looking for a fun car that only have 50-75K to spend? Unless they just have to have the classic, best are that they are looking at modern performance cars in their price range.

And that is why, even though I'm pretty proud of the car that I built, at the end of the day I understand it's probably only worth around 35K. Even that could be high.

219943

[ProTouring442]

Seems to me, businesses rather build entire cars because it’s easier to manage and they can slap a brand on it when it’s done. I do think there is more money in small jobs, but it’s not exciting to a “builder” to do that. It would have actually been nice to have DSE install their parts on my car, but nope! They won’t do it…I probably have about $10k in odd ball labor in a period of a couple of weeks total.

I know not everyone is a crook, but doing a build from the ground up is also easier to squeeze you dry with labor.

Go ahead and open a shop and give your way a try.

Your customers will complain about the price, then badmouth you for things you never touched, and since the "evidence" will be right in front of them, the people they talk to will believe them.

[badazz81z28]

Go ahead and open a shop and give your way a try.

Your customers will complain about the price, then badmouth you for things you never touched, and since the "evidence" will be right in front of them, the people they talk to will believe them.


WTF you trying to say?

You justify not doing small jobs based on a few complainers? I think the truth is, the person doing the work maybe didn’t do quality work….

[ProTouring442]

WTF you trying to say?

You justify not doing small jobs based on a few complainers? I think the truth is, the person doing the work maybe didn’t do quality work….

What I'm saying is...

A guy named Richard takes his '69 Camaro to "Bad-Azz Pro-Touring Builds" to have you install a 4-link and mini-tub kit, and the exhaust. You do a great job, but shortly after he picks the car up, the crappy bondo job he did a few years ago pops revealing the rust in the wheel lip.

He never tells anyone he did the crapy bondo job, Instead, he says, "all that sh!# happened right spent $X-jillion at "Bad-Azz Pro-Touring Builds!"

Worse, people will believe him.

Even worse, he will be back at your shop constantly hounding you about how you owe him for body and paint work.

In the meantime, he's posting on social media and every forum he can find about how you "f#@ked his car up!"

These sort of customers won't be a once in a while sort of thing, either.

[badazz81z28]

^^ lol, that happens regardless and it’s not a common thing….

[Olds.PhD]

This is the dumbest thing to argue about. If you think there's a business case, then go start a business. But you don't get to get mad when they won't gamble their own money on your brilliant idea.

Coming from the Olds community, there's a reason you can buy an aluminum block for a small or big block Chevy, but not an Olds. Is there a market for an aluminum Olds block? Yes. Is it big enough to justify the cost? Nope. Not even a little. Point being: its easy to say "there's a market". Its much harder to find a market that is actually worth the effort.

[badazz81z28]

^^^ this is a discussion forum…..come on man…


Imagine sitting by the camp fire BSing.

[camrat68]

So, what do you do then when it's finally time to part ways with your ride, just accept the fact that you're going to take a bath on the deal?
I've owned my project car for Forty years and due to health reasons, I think that the time has come to pass it on. That leads me to having to put a price on something that I've been trying to ignore prices on. Because I had no-name shops do the work, that doesn't translate to "added value" to the car. Where do you price the modifications then?

[JLMounce]

So, what do you do then when it's finally time to part ways with your ride, just accept the fact that you're going to take a bath on the deal?
I've owned my project car for Forty years and due to health reasons, I think that the time has come to pass it on. That leads me to having to put a price on something that I've been trying to ignore prices on. Because I had no-name shops do the work, that doesn't translate to "added value" to the car. Where do you price the modifications then?

It's certainly hard because we all kind of build the car we want. I'm assuming your project is your 68 camaro in your signature?

The 502 with th400/gear vendors combo is hurting the value. The rest of the parts you have on there are good parts, befitting of most restomod and pro-touring builds.

Unless your car is really incomplete, you might be money ahead yanking the 502/th400 and putting in even a fairly stock LS1/2/3 with a 4l60/80. Much more marketable with those parts. But of course if health is a concern, I don't know your ability to get that completed or not.

I don't necessarily think I would worry about having a big name shop do the work, so long as the work that was done is good. That said, I'd have the car appraised by a local appraiser. If it is complete, even though the big block is probably hurting the value, there's buyers that may be interested in it. Or put it up on bring a trailer and let it go for whatever it goes for.

[BonzoHansen]

The 502 with th400/gear vendors combo is hurting the value. The rest of the parts you have on there are good parts, befitting of most restomod and pro-touring builds.That's too bad. From personal experience, that combo is a lot of fun.

[JLMounce]

That's too bad. From personal experience, that combo is a lot of fun.

Oh I'm sure it is. I still run a traditional Pontiac in my bird, along with a 4l80e. It's fun and what I want, but I also know that it's not really what a lot of interested buyers would want. They want a "modern reliable" LS in the car. I could try and prove to them that my traditional Poncho powered car is every bit as reliable and actually still gets reasonable fuel mileage, but it's engrained in to peoples heads that if you're buying a restomod, it has to have an LS.

2 years ago, I watched my friend spend about 15K more on a car simply because it had an LS2 instead of a SBC like the other contender car had. In my opinion, the car with the SBC was the nicer of the two as well.

[camrat68]

JLMounce- Thank You for the feedback.

[badazz81z28]

Protouring cars need to stay modern or they lose value and interested buyers. I agree, today’s buyer wants a LS, I’d even say the LT4 is picking up steam.

My opinion, appraisals are a waste of money…just look at what cars are selling for and set your price. Unless it’s a concourse original car, the value is all over.

[Vimes]

Protouring cars need to stay modern or they lose value and interested buyers. I agree, today’s buyer wants a LS, I’d even say the LT4 is picking up steam.

My opinion, appraisals are a waste of money…just look at what cars are selling for and set your price. Unless it’s a concourse original car, the value is all over.

I disagree. Someone hits your car, their insurance will try to claim your 81 is a 45 year old car, only worth the scrap price of the steel. They will want to total it even if the damage is as minor as just needing to replace the rear fascia. Having an appraisal from before the accident gives you something to push back on. Unless you have an agreed value policy, your own insurance likely won't be any help.

[JLMounce]

I disagree. Someone hits your car, their insurance will try to claim your 81 is a 45 year old car, only worth the scrap price of the steel. They will want to total it even if the damage is as minor as just needing to replace the rear fascia. Having an appraisal from before the accident gives you something to push back on. Unless you have an agreed value policy, your own insurance likely won't be any help.

It's always better to protect yourself first instead of trying to rely on others. These cars should have stated/agreed value insurance on them. If something ever happens, use your insurance, don't try and use the bob's discount insurance that somebody else decided to use.

[79 Camaro]

Stated value insurance is not the same as agreed value. Just went thru this with State Farm on my 80 Camaro. With the agents inspection and I gave them copies of my build receipts they went from 25K to 35K agreed value.
Going to do the same thing with my 98 Wrangler with a LS6/4L60E swap. Currently it's stated value. Changing it to an agreed value this spring.

[ryeguy2006a]

Good conversation. I think though in many cases you get what you pay for. I know that I got a good deal for my 68 Camaro, but that deal turned into replacing so much hidden rust. I think many times you get what you pay for and need to be very careful buying. I'd almost rather buy a car that's in bare metal over a painted car for that reason alone.

[Vimes]

It's always better to protect yourself first instead of trying to rely on others. These cars should have stated/agreed value insurance on them. If something ever happens, use your insurance, don't try and use the bob's discount insurance that somebody else decided to use.

Yes, but you can't control what company the guy who caused the accident uses. The appraisal before the accident proves what the car was worth to the other insurance company, and makes it far easier should you wind up in court.

[srode]

Yes, but you can't control what company the guy who caused the accident uses. The appraisal before the accident proves what the car was worth to the other insurance company, and makes it far easier should you wind up in court.
With Hagerty or Grundy etc going to court is on them. They will settle with you either totalling or fixing your car up to the policy value. The other guy's insurance is dealt with by your collector policy company. You don't need an appraisal, your company agreed to the car's value already

[JLMounce]

Stated value insurance is not the same as agreed value. Just went thru this with State Farm on my 80 Camaro. With the agents inspection and I gave them copies of my build receipts they went from 25K to 35K agreed value.
Going to do the same thing with my 98 Wrangler with a LS6/4L60E swap. Currently it's stated value. Changing it to an agreed value this spring.

This is true. With a stated value policy you will typically receive the lesser of either the stated value, or fair market value for the car. You do sometimes have to prove that fair market value if it's below stated value. A reason you may go with a stated value policy is it typically provides more lenient usage restrictions. With an agreed value policy, you get the agreed value, regardless of actual value. Though the insurance company is never going to agree to an absurd valuation either. These policies often come with usage restrictions.


Yes, but you can't control what company the guy who caused the accident uses. The appraisal before the accident proves what the car was worth to the other insurance company, and makes it far easier should you wind up in court.

The point is that you never deal with the other driver's insurance at all. You deal with your insurance carrier only. Yes, you pay your deductible, but you can control that cost. Your insurance company will then subrogate against the other party's carrier to try and recover damages, including your deductible.


With Hagerty or Grundy etc going to court is on them. They will settle with you either totalling or fixing your car up to the policy value. The other guy's insurance is dealt with by your collector policy company. You don't need an appraisal, your company agreed to the car's value already

Yup. You just deal with any usage restrictions that may be levied by the insurer. When I was shopping insurance for my bird, I found that Hagerty specifically had usage restrictions that were too onerous for me. It wouldn't have even been worth having the car I built. That's how I wound up with a stated value policy with State Farm. I have zero usage restrictions, other than typical race track stuff. I'll have to work to prove value a little harder, but I didn't value my car somewhere that it's not worth either.

[79 Camaro]

I've used State Farm for years for both daily drivers and hot rods. Never been hassled about driving the hot rods to work once a while or on a summer cruise around the lakes.
But we do insure 5 vehicles/house/property with State Farm so it is in their best interest to look after us. Zero claims over 40 years.

[ProTouring442]

So, what do you do then when it's finally time to part ways with your ride, just accept the fact that you're going to take a bath on the deal?
I've owned my project car for Forty years and due to health reasons, I think that the time has come to pass it on. That leads me to having to put a price on something that I've been trying to ignore prices on. Because I had no-name shops do the work, that doesn't translate to "added value" to the car. Where do you price the modifications then?

I just bought a 2017 Genesis G90 for $26,000. The original buyer paid some $75,000 for the car. He lost a good $50,000 on his car (and only drove it 40,000 miles!). Such is how it goes. Cars are almost always depreciating assets.

A hot rodded/customized "classic" car isn't quite the depreciating asset a new car is, but that's only true while that particular car or style in in vogue. It's a supply and demand thing. Build a car on the cusp of a boom in demand for that style and you might make money. Own the car when the demand bubble crashes and you'll have your ass handed to you.

Build what you want because it's what you want and accept the cards however they fall.

[Vimes]

Well, if you guys feel like an appraisal is not needed that's fine. I'd prefer to have the extra docmentation.

[JLMounce]

Well, if you guys feel like an appraisal is not needed that's fine. I'd prefer to have the extra docmentation.

Yeah the appraisal is good to have when it comes to the insurance side of all of this.

I think the appraisal in the context that it's being talked about here may be more along the lines of trying to sell a vehicle. In that case I don't know that it matters as much. A buyer is going to pay what they think the vehicle is worth to them, regardless of what an appraisal says it's worth.

[badazz81z28]

I just bought a 2017 Genesis G90 for $26,000. The original buyer paid some $75,000 for the car. He lost a good $50,000 on his car (and only drove it 40,000 miles!). Such is how it goes. Cars are almost always depreciating assets.

A hot rodded/customized "classic" car isn't quite the depreciating asset a new car is, but that's only true while that particular car or style in in vogue. It's a supply and demand thing. Build a car on the cusp of a boom in demand for that style and you might make money. Own the car when the demand bubble crashes and you'll have your ass handed to you.

Build what you want because it's what you want and accept the cards however they fall.


Why do people think that’s a $50k loss? You didn’t get a $75k car for $26k, you got a $26k car for $26k

That car has 40k miles of wear, that’s a lot of wear on car. There also isn’t a warranty anymore…..the car depreciated based on wear and tear, not just because

[badazz81z28]

I disagree. Someone hits your car, their insurance will try to claim your 81 is a 45 year old car, only worth the scrap price of the steel. They will want to total it even if the damage is as minor as just needing to replace the rear fascia. Having an appraisal from before the accident gives you something to push back on. Unless you have an agreed value policy, your own insurance likely won't be any help.


that’s not how it works with your run of the mill insurance policy. You don’t get value by your investment…that’s why classic car insurance exist.

[Vimes]

that’s not how it works with your run of the mill insurance policy. You don’t get value by your investment…that’s why classic car insurance exist.

I know exactly how it works with run of the mill insurance. And, I want to have a record showing the actual value of my car made before the accident. If I have to take the other party to court I'll have a much better case if I can show "My car was appraised on X date as having a value of $xx,xxx dollars" than I will have if I go to court and say "My car was worth $xx,xxx dollars because that's the least I'll take for it."

As I said earlier, nobody else has to have an appraisal done but I will, and will have it done periodically once (if) my project gets completed. Appraisals aren't that much, and they can make your case much stronger. My insurance should be a fallback, and not have to make up the difference between the other party's limit and what the other insurance company wants to value me at. Mine would be valued at about 2 grand if that were the case because I'm doing a very common, not very sought after pickup. Besides, an appraisal only costs a couple of hundred bucks.

[badazz81z28]

^^ ain’t gonna work. Your insurance premium is partially based on the vehicle value. You can’t pay $1500 car value insurance and then whip out a $65k value claim when you have an accident.

[Vimes]

I don't think you understood my post. I never said I was going to try and pay coverage like it's a beater then whip out an appraisal after an accident, expecting my insurance to make good. My insurance will know before I go on the road what they're insuring on an agreed value policy.

What I said is I don't see why my insurance company, who will be fully aware of my valuation while charging a premium to reflect this increased valuation, should have to make up the difference because their insurance company wants to pay out a hooptie valuation on a full restoration with improvements.

[srode]

Um, this started as a discussion about the cost of unfinished project cars and drifted quite a bit so now it's about insurance coverage and appraisles etc. Maybe we should start another post about insurance.