Do you think GM can produce camaro in 18 months?

[96Z28SS]

Looks like some eager beavers at Dodge want to get going and be out before the Camaro.

http://autoblog.com/2006/01/15/dodge-challenger-to-hit-the-road-in-18-months/

[JLM]

I'm sure GM "could" bring a new f-body to market within 18 months. However I don't think it's in their best interest to do so.

Given GM's financial situation the company absolutely can not afford to bring a flop to the market.

My belief is that if GM could do it that quickly the car would end up pricing itself out of competition. You can get a full option 2006 Mustang GT for just over 30,000. If GM can't bring a camaro to market fully optioned for close to that price it will fail just like the 4th generations did.

I think it's in GM's best interest to take their time on this car and get it right. Just putting the car out there just to be first is not going to be a good thing for the company right now.

[Charley Lillard]

It was explained to me that Chrysler is willing to deal with the recalls as a tradeoff for getting a car out quick and GM would rather get it out without recalls.

[Damn True]

Nice of them (DC) to let their customers handle their R&D.

[96Z28SS]

I think the company that comes to market last is going to lose alot in sales.

[Damn True]

Not as much as the company that foists a POS onto it's customers.

[Steve Chryssos]

"Foist"? I have to go look that up. I like it.

[Steve Chryssos]

Ah yes:
Foist: Verb: Impose an unwelcome or unnecessary person or thing on.

Origin Mid16th century. I like it.

There's also the New York application of the term:
Foist I gotta get a cuppa cawfee. I'm dyin here.

[Doug Harden]

Jeff Yachnin who was on the C4 team to the end of its run, moved to the F-body, then to SLP for the Firehawk/SS program and most recently with ASC on the Viper (coupe) program....

http://www.chirpthird.com/vb/showpost.php?p=47806&postcount=4


At best, it'll be an early 09. Here's a timeline;assuming that they go the whole car circuit getting feedback (even though they have done lots of clinics already) -they make final design decisions around 4/1/05 and release the class A surface which gets retuned and finalized 6/15/06 ( thats 6 months) engineering begins for production (up to now, nothing is final), give that 6 months for the interior,exterior,chassis,powertrain, etc - and that would be pushing it for a brand new car. That takes it t0 12/06. Prototypes must be built for testing, including tooling - that will go on while the engineering is being done, a lot based on the concept. Tooling will start during the engineering phase - assume steel tools for steel skin ( not SMC - fascias will be TPO) - 8-10 months; all of the interior is being done at the same time - takes it to 10/07. Production testing - 6 months - now at 4/08. Assuming everything works, build test fleets - remember - it'll be a brand new plant as well. That has to be concurrent with the car design and build. Launch will be 8/07 - that makes it an 08 model. That's very optimistic timing - but GM is shooting for 18 month timing - I'd say 24 is more realistic.


Add this info to the mix .....

http://www.smh.com.au/news/business/new-chev-muscle-car-a-holden-underneath/2006/01/10/1136863238790.html


The Camaro was yesterday labelled a "concept car" but the Herald understands it is close to being confirmed for production.

"We have Australian engineers working on this project right now," Denny Mooney, the American boss of Holden, told the Herald.

[Steve Chryssos]

"We have Australian engineers working on this project right now,"


Well, now that changes everything.

[Doug Harden]

I had a great long talk with Doug Houlihan, Chief Engineer in charge of GM's Global RWD program at the GM Heritage Center last Saturday evening and he's making his 21st trip "down under", this time for a more permanent stay to continue working on the platform for the Camaro, et. al.

We discussed in detail what people 'like me' wanted in a new Camaro..... :poke: Of course I told him that cup holders and a re-birth of the under-dash tissue holders were tops on my list....................................NOT!!! :lol:

I told him about my dream of returning the Z/28 to it's rightful place as a special performance edition, ala' the Z06...just as it started life as.....and he agreed with me.........I can sleep better now. :3gears: :thankyou:

[trapin]

At best, it'll be an early 09. Here's a timeline;assuming that they go the whole car circuit getting feedback (even though they have done lots of clinics already) -they make final design decisions around 4/1/05 and release the class A surface which gets retuned and finalized 6/15/06 ( thats 6 months) engineering begins for production (up to now, nothing is final), give that 6 months for the interior,exterior,chassis,powertrain, etc - and that would be pushing it for a brand new car. That takes it t0 12/06. Prototypes must be built for testing, including tooling - that will go on while the engineering is being done, a lot based on the concept. Tooling will start during the engineering phase - assume steel tools for steel skin ( not SMC - fascias will be TPO) - 8-10 months; all of the interior is being done at the same time - takes it to 10/07. Production testing - 6 months - now at 4/08. Assuming everything works, build test fleets - remember - it'll be a brand new plant as well. That has to be concurrent with the car design and build. Launch will be 8/07 - that makes it an 08 model. That's very optimistic timing - but GM is shooting for 18 month timing - I'd say 24 is more realistic.

He's about right, but I think I can offer a bit of opinion here on the timing since class A surface is what I do for GM. He has the class A surface being released, then retuned and finalized. Not sure what he means by this. When a program leaves our department...it is class A surface and that's the end of it. No more tuning is done. We are one of the final stops on the journey before production. Typically when we release the surface the car is anywhere from a 13 to 15 months away from production. He has it taking 2 years, I don't agree with that. He might be talking about the studio surface which we get when we begin the program. But I'm not involved with that program, nor will I get a chance to be. It's a Holden program. When that car hits the streets is anyones guess. But you never know...the damn thing could be here sooner than you think.

[PeteRR]

It was explained to me that Chrysler is willing to deal with the recalls as a tradeoff for getting a car out quick and GM would rather get it out without recalls.


Of course, DaimlerChrysler has a huge advantage over Chevy, in that the Challenger is based on a shortened version of the LX platform already in production for the Chrylser 300, Dodge Charger and Dodge Magnum. Add to that a full line of platform-compatible powertrains, and a 2008 model-year Challenger looks like a slam dunk.
I'm not in any way in the market for a new car, but this Challenger is calling to me.

[Damn True]

"We have Australian engineers working on this project right now," Denny Mooney, the American boss of Holden, told the Herald.



Does GM/Australia have to deal with the UAW?

[David Pozzi]

In the video Lutz mentioned driving a prototype this spring???
Is the platform allready in production? someone said it would be a Monaro platform?

[WS6]

i thought it was the new Zeta platform that supposedly was scrapped but then returned again with a few tweaks.

oh and to answer the original topic, no i do not think GM can have it here in 18 months. do i think they should? yes. i think they should have not released the car until they knew they could have it in the show room in 18 months. remember the SSr? it came out and everyone loved it and wanted to get their hands on one. three years passed before it hit the show room. no one cared then. if the camaro does not come out until 08 as an 09 it better be way ahead of the mustang and the challenger not just on par with them or slightly ahead. it must out perform in every catergory including interior and cost no more if not less to do so. if not then there will not be enough people who care just because its a camaro to buy one. people care too much about what they get for their money now a days to just spend it on a car because of its name. of course all this goes out the window if GM considers the car to be a niche type car and not sell a whole bunch. then the game is completely different

[ProdigyCustoms]

What they should do is take some of the team of the ugly ass front wheel drive Impalas, Monte Carlos, etc, and get some people working on getting this thing to market before we run out of fuel! For the life of me I cannot figure out why the hell it takes so long. And I did not know Chrysler recalls have been any worse then the terrific first year GMs through history. Ever buy a first year Vette? How about a 68, or a 84? And it took ages to get those to market. Every first year car has problems, Chrysler surely is no worse then anyone else. The recall excuse is exactly that, AN EXCUSE.

Through my life I have not been the worlds biggest Chrysler fan, but I have to give them props for taking cars like the Viper, prowler, 300s, etc, showing them and getting them to market, and very closely resembling their show counterparts.

I see that Ford sold 140,000 Mustangs last year and is uping production to 192,000 this year, thats 50,000 buyer that COULD be Camaro buyers.

Oh, now I understand, they are waiting until the Mustangs are 4 years old and looking for trade ins, LOL!

Whatever!

[trapin]

Is the platform allready in production?
Hmmmm.....I'm not sure.

:)

[trapin]

When that car debuts there will be PLENTY of customers to buy them. What does everyone think is going to happen...people are going to buy Mustangs and then HOLD ON TO THEM FOR THE REST OF THEIR NATURAL LIVES???!!!!
We can't build the HHR fast enough to meet the demand for them, and this is 5 years after the debut of the PT Cruiser. Trust me.....Camaro is going to do sensational whether you care to believe it or not.

[vintageracer]

No, it takes at least week just to fart at GM!

[dropit69]

wow i cant believe that hhr is selling that fast i think its one of the ugliest things to come out of gm..blahhhhh!!!!!!! but just my 2 cents..

[Damn True]

Keep in mind that the overwhelming majority of the prospective market for this car has no idea that there was a concept car unveiled last week. GM has time.

As for the SSR's lackluster sales. I'd be more inclined to believe that the lack of practicality of the vehicle (2 seater, small cabin, tiny bed) had more to do with it than the time between concept release and production. I think a lot of people dig the look of it, but for most, it just dosen't make sense. (cautionary reminder to GM re: the 4th Gen; make the Camaro a useful car, not just a hot-rod toy)

I've already beaten the drum, and I'll beat it again:

GM needs to race this car this summer and next. Find a class that it'll fit in, preferably against some high performance imports (350-z, M3, G35, IS-300 and similar...would it fit in GT2 American LeMans?), throw some money at the series so it gets TV time and print coverage and show the marketplace that this is a world class performace car.

[96Z28SS]

When that car debuts there will be PLENTY of customers to buy them. What does everyone think is going to happen...people are going to buy Mustangs and then HOLD ON TO THEM FOR THE REST OF THEIR NATURAL LIVES???!!!!
We can't build the HHR fast enough to meet the demand for them, and this is 5 years after the debut of the PT Cruiser. Trust me.....Camaro is going to do sensational whether you care to believe it or not.


I can't seem to agree with you here, People who are buying Mustangs and Mustang GT500 aren't going to keeping the car a couple years to just trade it in. Once you have lost the customer it will be hard to get them back that quick. Also with the way the used car market values are now, people will be keeping there cars longer.

If the Challenger comes out a year before the Camaro they will have lost alot of sales. Just like back then when the Challenger and Cuda came out in 1970 it came to the game way to late and had dismal sales.

The HHR brings up a good point, people on this board have mentioned that they shouldn't go retro cause look at the PT cruiser its dated and sales have dropped. GM basically did the same thing and went with a retro design and they can't build them fast enough.
My opinion is GM needs to make the Camaro more retro in design they would sell very well.

Also I'd like to see GM come down and punish the dealerships who try to add 10k to the sticker price when the camaros first come out. Just sell them at max MSRP. If the all sell out of the dealerships take orders for them.

[96Z28SS]

Keep in mind that the overwhelming majority of the prospective market for this car has no idea that there was a concept car unveiled last week. GM has time.

As for the SSR's lackluster sales. I'd be more inclined to believe that the lack of practicality of the vehicle (2 seater, small cabin, tiny bed) had more to do with it than the time between concept release and production. I think a lot of people dig the look of it, but for most, it just dosen't make sense. (cautionary reminder to GM re: the 4th Gen; make the Camaro a useful car, not just a hot-rod toy)

I've already beaten the drum, and I'll beat it again:

GM needs to race this car this summer and next. Find a class that it'll fit in, preferably against some high performance imports (350-z, M3, G35, IS-300 and similar...would it fit in GT2 American LeMans?), throw some money at the series so it gets TV time and print coverage and show the marketplace that this is a world class performace car.

I think they would through it in the same class as the Cadillac CTS, GTO, and Vettes which is GT1

[Ackattack]

wow i cant believe that hhr is selling that fast i think its one of the ugliest things to come out of gm..blahhhhh!!!!!!! but just my 2 cents..

Have you seen the Pontiac Aztec :barf:

[USAZR1]

Have you seen a new Pontiac Solstice yet? THose things are cool!

I'd love to own an 05 SSR but $40K is too steep for my blood.

[6'9"Witha69]

Have you seen the Pontiac Aztec :barf:
Wish I hadn't. I thought the Avalanche convinced GM that Body Armor = BAD!

[Damn True]

Have you seen a new Pontiac Solstice yet? THose things are cool!

I'd love to own an 05 SSR but $40K is too steep for my blood.


The Solstice is beautiful! A bit porky in comparison to the Miata. But absolutely a step in the right direction for GM in terms of weight reduction.

I'm hoping that process (weight reduction) continues to evolve with the Camaro.

[trapin]

I can't seem to agree with you here, People who are buying Mustangs and Mustang GT500 aren't going to keeping the car a couple years to just trade it in. Once you have lost the customer it will be hard to get them back that quick. Also with the way the used car market values are now, people will be keeping there cars longer.

If the Challenger comes out a year before the Camaro they will have lost alot of sales. Just like back then when the Challenger and Cuda came out in 1970 it came to the game way to late and had dismal sales.
If the car says Camaro on the fender, is fast as hell, is comparable in makeup to the Mustang and Challanger and looks anything like the concept vehicle...there is no way on God's green earth it won't do good. Impossible....absolutely impossible. They can buy as many Challangers and Mustangs as they want...it won't matter a single bit. Don't let your opinions of General Motors skew your predictions on this car's future. And by the way...a word about that Dodge Challanger. Dodge might be taking their retro car in another direction than Ford did. I have a friend that works at Chrysler's Design Center and the rumor over there for pricing on Challanger is up around $40,000. Don't know if it's true but if it is...that's not a car we'll be worried about. I don't want to spread rumors though...take that with a grain of salt.


The HHR brings up a good point, people on this board have mentioned that they shouldn't go retro cause look at the PT cruiser its dated and sales have dropped. GM basically did the same thing and went with a retro design and they can't build them fast enough.
My opinion is GM needs to make the Camaro more retro in design they would sell very well.

They'll sell very well anyway. If Challanger is going to be a carbon copy of the 1970 model, why would we want ours to be a "me too" car? It would make more sense for us to want to distance ourselves from them a bit. Make it retro, but add a little forward design in there as well. Our car IS retro. Just not as retro as you would like. But it's going to be a sensational car.


I'd like to see GM come down and punish the dealerships who try to add 10k to the sticker price when the camaros first come out. Just sell them at max MSRP. If the all sell out of the dealerships take orders for them.
Now...here's where I agree with you. You're dead on here.

[DusterRT]

I could totally see the Challenger being over $40k, even way over, especially if it's only offered as a limited production SRT only model.

I hope that's not the approach they'll take, and have more basic models that would be more affordable..

Travis