1970 GTO Judge

[gtome]

I've been on here a while, and asking tons of questions, so I figured it is time to start a build thread. Might be a good way for me to document, and be my memory for future and past work.
I actually bought this car in 1984 if I remember right (yeah I'm old!), so I guess it's actually time for me to do something with it. I have never driven it, so I'm hopeful I can actually finish it before I die!
This is a real 1970 Orbit Orange 4 speed Judge. Because of its rarity and value, I want to be careful not to do anything that can't be undone. I can't imagine ever selling it, but you never know. I kind of would like to sell it so I can buy something I wouldn't mind cutting up, but this is what I have at the moment.
So far I have purchased a 2012 corvette with 70,000 miles that runs well to scaveng the engine from. I will probably pull the brakes off to use on the GTO, but they are very unattractive so I'm not sure if I will continue with that route. When I bought the car, the owner pulled the rear end out and kept it, and put in a 10 bolt non posi out of a 6 cyl car. I hope to build or have built a 9" Ford. It seems decent used 12 bolt drop in rears are expensive, but if I find a decent deal on one I may do that instead. As I mentioned, I don't want to cut on it much, so no mini tub or the like, so a stock width rear may work. I'm going to use a Holley Terminator to control it and their wiring harness. I also got a free TR 6060 6 speed out of a 2012 camaro that I can use, but that will require tunnel work on my perfect floors. That would be a terrible feeling, but might be better than 5-6k for a TKX.
The body is pretty solid now. Last year I replaced part of the quarter skin around the wheel openings, and the outer part of the outer wheelhouse. Not the ideal way to do it, but I wanted to keep as much original metal as possible. I stripped all the paint I could from it last week, and put it on a rotisserie last night. Next it will get blasted and a couple coats of epoxy primer before going back on the frame for bodywork. I'm going to blast and powdercoat the frame too, but might wait until after the bodywork is done, just in case I get some primer overspray on it. Ordered body bushings for it today, so I hope they come quickly because I hope to have it blasted before Wednesday. I worked with the paint shop to get a match done in the color before stripping the paint. We used the door jambs and trunk to get the color match right on. So that's how it sits at the moment.
I'm hoping for a coil over conversion, and tubular a arms, so I have a decent ride and the ability to adjust ride height. I plan to use Ridler wheels that are a copy of the factory Rally wheels. Most likely be 18" all the way around, but 20's in the rear are a possibility. I'd like to go with a 295 or 305 in the rear, and maybe a 255 in the front.
Most of this hinges on the restoration costs. I'm going to do all of the work, but it's still pricey!
I have the rear valance, and trunk lid ready for color, and I already sprayed the wing just to check out the color.
More to come as I have time. Here are a few random pics I have so far.215018215019215020215021215022

[gtome]

Making some progress!
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[gtome]

Ready for some bodywork.
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[Steve68]

Nice GTO,

I would return that car right back to stock, and find another Pontiac to build, but that's just me, depending how they were optioned those were really nice cars, but it yours, cant wait to see color all over the body,

[gtome]

I'm trying to sell it as we speak. I've had several people interested, but no one has dropped any cash (i am asking a pretty penny though). If I can't sell it, I have no plans to do anything to it that can't easily be undone. I'd love to have something mini tubbed, but I can't do that to this one.
Being a real Orbit Orange 4 speed makes it pretty valuable.

[gtome]

Ordered my wheels today. I don't normally like it, but I went with a 20x10 and an 18x8. These are only about $300 each, so if the size difference bothers me, I will order 18x9.5 for the rear. I picked up a used 305/35r20 rear tire for next to nothing on marketplace to try with the 255/40r18 on the front. We'll see how they work out.
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[andrewb70]

I should be ashamed, but I have no idea how rare a 70 Orbit Orange 4 speed Judge is worth. Unless you have all of the original parts, I can't imagine it being worth that much.

Andrew

[gtome]

I have all the parts, but I don't have much interest in a stock car. It would probably do 115-125k done. I guess it's more of the rarity than the value. It is the sought after color which is what makes it so desirable. I would be lynched for doing this to one amongst the purists. That's why I'm not soing anything to it that can't be easily undone.
That said, the 305/35r20 is super tight in there as stock. I might roll the fender and see what that gains me.
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[gtome]

It's crazy how wide this tire looks on the ground, and not so much up in the car
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[gtome]

I hammered the outer wheel house out today. Also hammer rolled the fender lip. Gave me a bit more room, but that 305 is still pretty snug in there.

[andrewb70]

I hammered the outer wheel house out today. Also hammer rolled the fender lip. Gave me a bit more room, but that 305 is still pretty snug in there.

I use a 305/35-18 in the rear of my 70 and it fits great. Yours is a snug fit because of the tire height more than the width.

Andrew

[gtome]

Yeah I'm really wanting to go with a tucked look. Maybe a 30 series would fit better. If I remember right, a 305/30 is over an inch smaller in diameter. Or I may have to drop down to a 295.

[andrewb70]

Yeah I'm really wanting to go with a tucked look. Maybe a 30 series would fit better. If I remember right, a 305/30 is over an inch smaller in diameter. Or I may have to drop down to a 295.


It is easier to tuck a smaller diameter tire than a larger one. Also, be aware that lowering the rear of these cars significantly will cause driveline angle problems that are not easily addressed.

Andrew

[dhutton]

It is easier to tuck a smaller diameter tire than a larger one. Also, be aware that lowering the rear of these cars significantly will cause driveline angle problems that are not easily addressed.

Andrew
Words of wisdom. Raising the tunnel on these cars is a lot of work based on my experience. So is waiting for the Driveshaft Shop to ship your CV driveshaft if you go that way.

Don

[gtome]

That's interesting. After reading your posts, I went to a tire size comparison website. A 205/75/15 (stock-ish size) is almost exactly the same diameter as a 305/30/20. My goal is to have the rim be just under the wheel lip at ride height. Maybe I will grab a 305/30 and see if that fits better. I prefer the look, and I'm sure the ride, of a 35 series tire, but there will have to be a compromise somewhere.

[dhutton]

Lot of work…

[gtome]

Yeah I won't be doing that! I hope! I'm scared that TR6060 is going to be so big I would have to cut the tunnel. Or spend 6 grand and buy a TKX.

[gtome]

Ok I think I've done all I can do with it. I could hammer the front inner wheelhouse a bit more if I need to, but I think I could run this 305/35/20 if I want to. I would have to get my rear end measure perfectly though. Also this is really just guessing on if the tire is square in the hole. Just a slight movement makes it better or worse. I hope to have it back on the frame by the end of next weekend, so I will know more then.
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[dhutton]

I think that will rub when one wheel goes low and the other goes high as entering a steep driveway at an angle.

I think that six speed transmission is going to hurt your driveline angles even more if you don’t cut the tunnel to let you raise the transmission.

[gtome]

It's very possible. I might just kick it down to a 295 so I have some room for error. Might go to a 30 series too. The wheels ship out Monday, so I will have some more info soon.
As for the trans, I'm not 100% sure on it yet. Pretty hard to pass up a free trans though. I will most likely mock it up and see how it looks.

[gtome]

Ok. I ordered a set of 295/30r20's and a set of 255/40r18's. I will try these out and go from there. They are super cheap tires, but I will have them for rollers and to try on it once the car is done. Just hope they aren't dry rotted by then!

[gtome]

I put the tire on the rear end today. This is just a rear i had to make it roll. It's a 10 bolt out of a 65 so it's one inch narrower that what the car would have came with. It does "fit" though. I have the tire on the wheel simulator set to my correct 5.5" backspace.
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[andrewb70]

I put the tire on the rear end today. This is just a rear i had to make it roll. It's a 10 bolt out of a 65 so it's one inch narrower that what the car would have came with. It does "fit" though. I have the tire on the wheel simulator set to my correct 5.5" backspace.
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What size is that?

[gtome]

That's the 305/35r20

[LUV2XLR8]

What's the specs on the camaro wheels, looks great!

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[gtome]

I'm not sure on the camaro wheels. It's not mine. I was just doing some work on it.

[gtome]

Got the rear wheels today. Look ok for $289. Fronts will be here Wednesday.
Also got the new tires. Got 295/30r20 for the rear and 255/40r18 for the front. The 295's are kind of disappointing compared to the 305 I was hoping to use.
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[gtome]

Had the tires mounted today. I was kind of pissed because they chaeged me $88 to put 2 new tires on 2 new rims. Then it started to rain as soon as i put them in the truck. Oh well. This weekend I will put the body back on the frame and do a test fit. I know these will fit in the car, but I can measure for the rear end now.
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[gtome]

Looks like there is plenty of room for a 305 in there if I decide to go a little bigger in the future. I bought the wrong lug nuts, so I had to put some old ones I had laying around on it. I tried a 70 GTO style lug nut on it, but it's so deep in there you really can't see it. Also rolled the 305/35r20 to put next to the 295/30r20 that is on it, for a comparison. I'm a bit surprised how much taller the 35 is than the 30.
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[andrewb70]

The shorter tire will work better.

Andrew

[gtome]

Grrrr! I could have easily fit those 305's in there. Maybe even a 315. Oh well. Maybe once these are burned off.215240
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[andrewb70]

I told you I use 305/35-18s on my 70 GTO and there is plenty of room if the wheel offset is precise.

Andrew

[gtome]

Yeah I was unsure with the height difference in a 20". Oh well. I paid $107 each for these 295/30r20's, so it won't hurt much to replace them. I'm a little surprised how well they fit with the 1" narrower 1965 rear in it. Must be the 5.5" backspace.

[gtome]

Pulling the rear out tonight to measure for the 9" ford. I plan to maybe put a cam in the LS3 and not much more than that, so probably just 31 spline and maybe 3:70 gears. I need to get back onto a gear calculator and nail that down.
We do some powdercoating at work, and have a huge oven, so I will do the rear and frame here. Then I can move onto doing the bodywork.

[gtome]

Still grindin. Got all but the hood and nose in final primer.
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[gtome]

Trying to keep moving forward during the 3 weeks of winter we have. This wheel has been staring at me for a while. Probably the most disgusting one if ever seen (or felt!). Soaked it in Dawn overnight. It's not great yet but it helped a little.215968215969

[boss_hoss]

Grrrr! I could have easily fit those 305's in there. Maybe even a 315. Oh well. Maybe once these are burned off.215240
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Darn, Sorry I'm late to the party I could have helped. I ran a 305/35R20 on my 69 Pontiac for a while and only ran into rubbing issues when I had people in the back seat and hit a pothole other than that I never had any fitment issues after rolling the fenders a bit. Project looks great though.

[gtome]

Thanks brother. I am going to have a 9" built for it, so if I get the measurements right on, I will put some bigger ones on the next time. These are super cheap tires I got for it this time too, so who knows how long they will last anyway.

[gtome]

Man I just went for a ride in my buddies new GT500 track something mustang with the dual clutch trans. That trans is awesome! I might have to see what it takes to do a ZF or whatever they are called in behind my LS3. It's a whole different experience!

[andrewb70]

Man I just went for a ride in my buddies new GT500 track something mustang with the dual clutch trans. That trans is awesome! I might have to see what it takes to do a ZF or whatever they are called in behind my LS3. It's a whole different experience!

The ZF8HP is not a dual clutch transmission, but it has very fast shifts. Here is a post that I started on LS1 tech which outlines all of the details:

https://ls1tech.com/forums/conversions-swaps/1970078-zf8hp-transmission-swap.html

Andrew

[gtome]

Thanks Andrew I will have a look.

[gtome]

Grrrrrr. Went to put the new tires and wheels on yesterday, only to find that one of the wheels they sent are a 4.5 ford lug pattern. Hope they help me out because I already threw away the boxes and have the tires mounted.

[andrewb70]

Grrrrrr. Went to put the new tires and wheels on yesterday, only to find that one of the wheels they sent are a 4.5 ford lug pattern. Hope they help me out because I already threw away the boxes and have the tires mounted.

That's a bummer.

Andrew

[gtome]

They took care of me, but I'm waiting who knows how long for the new wheel. No real biggy since I haven't done much to the car lately. I'm working on finishing up the bodywork so I can get it in color. I hope to order the suspension and rear end soon in case that takes forever to get too. Really need to get moving forward.

[gtome]

Finally got my engine out of the corvette. I'd like to get the swap kit ordered and I'm planning on using the Holley system. I see they show 2 options, standard location, and forward location. How do I know which one i need? I'm planning on a mid length cast header (for extra ground clearance) and a TKX transmission.

[andrewb70]

I would use the forward mounts as that will give you a little more in the transmission tunnel.

Andrew

[gtome]

Thanks brother. I kept the corvette fan in hopes of using it on a different radiator. As long as there is room for that I will be happy.

[gtome]

I got the LS3 dropped in on the forward holley mounts finally. With the stock accessory drive, everything clears so I can keep that if I want, but it is ugly.
Is there any reason I can't use the radiator out of the 2012 vette in my gto? Besides the ugly factor. I would have to make some custom brackets, but it apparently cooled that engine just fine in the vette.217689217690

[dhutton]

Pretty sure that is a brushless fan so it will require some sort of PWM control. If you are using Holley Terminator EFI Andrew can set you up with the necessary PWM control signal.

[gtome]

I will be using a terminator for sure.