My 2 cents on the new Camaro...gotta say it

[Charley Lillard]

My thoughts on the new Camaro concept.

I was lucky enough to be one of the 250 to be invited by Scott Settlemire to see the new Camaro concept debut at the Detroit auto show. The whole weekend was a treat and I really want to thank Scott and the folks at Chevrolet for doing what they did. The night before the auto show we had a gathering at the GM Heritage center and most of the team that put the new Camaro together was there. They said they would listen to our comments and wanted to hear them so here I am.
While the new Camaro is neat and I think neater than the 4th gen it replaced, it is not what I was hoping for. I can remember talking with friends years ago about how cool it would be and how many cars Chevy would sell if they made the 69 Camaro again. We knew it was pipe dreaming but it sure was neat to think about. I never expected it to happen. Then comes along the new Mustang and it looks very much like a 67 Mustang. Then there are rumors of a retro Camaro and I'm pumped. Then there is a retro Hemi Challenger and it appears we are back in our youth. This is getting exciting. I will buy a new 69 Camaro. I'll buy 2 ! How many people are out there that would jump at the chance to buy a new 69 Camaro ? How many out there that like the old 69 Camaro's but don't buy one because they can't work on cars and old cars need to be worked on ? Would they buy a 69 Camaro with a warranty ? With the other makes doing the retro theme this is the perfect time and probably our only chance to do a 69 type Camaro. The market is there. There is worry that retro is not long legged enough to pencil out for the bean counters. The 69 Camaro is over 35 years old and the design still looks great. A new version of it can look just as great. I'm 52 years old and I want one. I have met many younger than me that also love the looks of a 69 Camaro. It's like we are invited to a retro party with Ford and Chrysler but have decided not to come. I know the retro T-bird didn't do well but guys like me were about 4 years old when they first came out. The guy that missed out on buying a 57 T-bird back in 57 is now probably close to 70 years old so I wouldn't expect him to buy too many cars of his youth. I missed the chance to buy a Camaro in 69 and would sure like another chance .I don't think there will ever be another chance like right now to capture the audience that is out there waiting You have a chance to capture the youth market and the baby boomers at the same time. Maybe I'm just in the minority and don't know it. GM really does want and need to know what the public will buy so they can decide on what to build. You may or may not agree with me on wanting the new Camaro to look more retro like a 69. Whatever it is you prefer please let Chevrolet know. If you don't voice your opinion don't bitch later on if they didn't do what you wanted.
-Charley

[TonyL]

I feel ya charlie. but think of it this way. If the car looked like a 69 now (the fender lines on the quarter and down the side etc) where would the car go from there?

It makes more sense to build a more neutral looking 67-68 style car first, and then build the "69" car later. It gives them a design they know will work that they can fall back on.

Ford didnt do this. they have NOWHERE to go with that car. they are basicly stuck with add ons, and wheel changes. bear in mind how different the concept for the mustang was from how it actually came out as well. It'll be "softer" and more camaro-ish when its a production car. The only real gripes I have are the taillights. I mean, com on, Scott stettlemire, Where did those come from? Humor the purists here. I've already made my statement on the grill/headlights. An RS version is a must. and it looks awesome in the photoshops that have been done (thanks again clark).

[David Pozzi]

Charley,
Well said. I think the Mustang and Challenger have the right idea with some key aspects of the design that are readily recognizeable as what they are decended from.
The Camaro concept looks more like a current Caddy cousin than a new Camaro, with only the roof line and bits of the grille reminding us of the 69 Camaro. It looks like it's grinning at us!
David

[Damn True]

I dunno Ralph, I really dig the tail lights. Like I said in another thread, I already own an old Camaro. I want a new Camaro that offers something more modern, but is still a "Camaro".

[rockdogz]

I think it's too early to judge based on the concept. There will be enough changes to make it a different car (greenhouse, wheels, front/rear ends, etc.). I however like the direction it's going - hints of the timeless past combined with forward design. As others have said, you can restore a '69 - heck, even buy a 'new' one now if you so choose. I really hope they make this car, and I've written in to tell them so.

[96Z28SS]

My thoughts on the new Camaro concept.

I was lucky enough to be one of the 250 to be invited by Scott Settlemire to see the new Camaro concept debut at the Detroit auto show. The whole weekend was a treat and I really want to thank Scott and the folks at Chevrolet for doing what they did. The night before the auto show we had a gathering at the GM Heritage center and most of the team that put the new Camaro together was there. They said they would listen to our comments and wanted to hear them so here I am.
While the new Camaro is neat and I think neater than the 4th gen it replaced, it is not what I was hoping for. I can remember talking with friends years ago about how cool it would be and how many cars Chevy would sell if they made the 69 Camaro again. We knew it was pipe dreaming but it sure was neat to think about. I never expected it to happen. Then comes along the new Mustang and it looks very much like a 67 Mustang. Then there are rumors of a retro Camaro and I'm pumped. Then there is a retro Hemi Challenger and it appears we are back in our youth. This is getting exciting. I will buy a new 69 Camaro. I'll buy 2 ! How many people are out there that would jump at the chance to buy a new 69 Camaro ? How many out there that like the old 69 Camaro's but don't buy one because they can't work on cars and old cars need to be worked on ? Would they buy a 69 Camaro with a warranty ? With the other makes doing the retro theme this is the perfect time and probably our only chance to do a 69 type Camaro. The market is there. There is worry that retro is not long legged enough to pencil out for the bean counters. The 69 Camaro is over 35 years old and the design still looks great. A new version of it can look just as great. I'm 52 years old and I want one. I have met many younger than me that also love the looks of a 69 Camaro. It's like we are invited to a retro party with Ford and Chrysler but have decided not to come. I know the retro T-bird didn't do well but guys like me were about 4 years old when they first came out. The guy that missed out on buying a 57 T-bird back in 57 is now probably close to 70 years old so I wouldn't expect him to buy too many cars of his youth. I missed the chance to buy a Camaro in 69 and would sure like another chance .I don't think there will ever be another chance like right now to capture the audience that is out there waiting You have a chance to capture the youth market and the baby boomers at the same time. Maybe I'm just in the minority and don't know it. GM really does want and need to know what the public will buy so they can decide on what to build. You may or may not agree with me on wanting the new Camaro to look more retro like a 69. Whatever it is you prefer please let Chevrolet know. If you don't voice your opinion don't bitch later on if they didn't do what you wanted.
-Charley

Charley, I agree with you fully on that, I have been saying it even before he leaked photos, it needs to be a 69 retro design.
As far as having no where to go with the design to build from. I'm not buying it, come on the 1969 camaro was a 1 year only style. If
they built a more retro style in line with the Mustang and Challenger they can leave it alone for over 5 years, then change the bumpers and headlight and tail light treatments and get another 5 years. look at the 3rd gen 1982 to 1992, 4th gen 1993-1997 change the headlight and front bumper 1998-2002.
I agree that this is the time to make a retro looking camaro let it run its 10 year span, then come out with something different like the latest concept. Everything has a way of evolving there are plenty of ways to build on a retro design.
Whats going to happen when Dodge make the Challenger and the sales of the Mustang & Challenger beat the Camaro sales, Are they going to kill the Camaro again?

I think that GM needs to keep the edge styling to Cadillac and not let it influence other divisions.

[ProdigyCustoms]

Well, my problem is I think Lisa's WS6 T/A convertible looks tons better then the new concept. So why the need to buy another? Ya know, it is interesting though, as Tony L said, if they do build it retro 69, to make any change through the coming years, will force them to change 69 styling hues And how many years can they sell the same car? On the other side, how many could they sell is just the question. they may sell more in one year of a 69 car, then 10 years of this car.

As it stands now, I am still buying a Challenger!

[Stu Seitz]

No offence guys but you need to move on; building another 69 camaro in 2008 doesn’t really do it for me nor do I think it does a lot form my demographic. Is it a pipe dream for my generation? Yeah it might be, but will it draw them into the showrooms? Probably not, but an STi or an EVO IV does and they are butt ugly. To be honest I think a lot of you feel that the only way GM could do something right, is to repeat what they did in the good ole days (your childhood). Yes I am assuming that you are a baby boomer but for someone like me who is 20, I have no desire for GM to build another 69 camaro in 2008.

I bought a 69 camaro built in 1969 because I thought it was the best looking car ever made. And this is what really aggravates me, many of you on this board voice you opinion ever so loudly on how the new camaro should be built/look, based on how you remember it as a kid. But be honest with your self, for most of you the next car you buy will be a mini van; yeah you they guy with three kids! Yes I know I will get a lot of flack for this, and yes I know there are some exceptions like Charley, who has 74832424 million dollars and 489324892 camaros but admit it most of you will never buy one no matter how good it looks. Really, move on and stop trying to create a car that you will never buy.

I don’t think that anyone from GM looks at these boards but if they do. PLEASE GET THE CAMARO IN ITS CURRENT FORM TO MARKET AS FAST AS YOU CAN. PLEASE DON’T LISTEN TO THESE PEOPLE WHO ARE ONLY TRYING TO RELIVE THERE CHILDHOOD. I AM 20 YEARS OLD AND OWN A 1969 CAMARO AND ABSOLUTLY LOVE HOW THE NEW ONE LOOKS AND I HAVE ALREADY STARTED PUTTING AWAY MONEY TO BUY A NEW ONE WHEN IT COMES OUT!

[Roger Poirier]

As it stands now, I am still buying a Challenger!

Agreed. The Camaro still has a long way to go before it becomes a winner.

R.P.

[Rick Dorion]

When the new Mustang came out, I really liked it and put it on my short list of potential purchases. Then the Challenger came out and, to me, REALLY nailed the styling. The Camaro concept misses the mark. Sigh.

Well stated, Charlie.

[trapin]

I really feel they'll stay the course with this car. Although it is still early. Charley's right....if enough of you feel a more retro Camaro is in order and you all make your voices heard to the "powers that be" than I think they will listen. I wish there was a blog available JUST for the Camaro that could be a resource for Peters, Welborn, and the rest of the directors. So far I think the car has been well received. We'll know more once the auto show concludes and the majority of people have had their chance to see the concept in person.

My take? You can't bring back the good ole days. You can try, but it'll never be the same. 1969 was 1969...that was a whole different world back then. We didn't have Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, Mazda, Infiniti, and Lexus to compete with. And car makers like BMW, Volvo, and Volkswagon weren't the players then that they are today. Sure Mustang is popular now and I have no doubts that many of us will need a bag of ice in our laps when Challanger debuts...but you have no idea what the shelf life of those cars is going to be. There's no "boat to miss". There is no boat. The boat is a mirage. You set sail on that boat and I guarantee you, you will fall asleep only to wake up hours later in the middle of the desert with no food and water.

I think everyone is missing what's been our (GM's) problem all these years....trying to do what everyone else is doing. We need to get away from that, we need our own identity. We need to build products that other company's will want to do. And there is evidence this is starting to happen. Look at the Honda Ridgeline. I'm sorry....but that's a baby Avalanche, I don't care how you spin it. And the new Toyota FJ Cruiser? "Hey Toyota....Hummer called.....they want they're design back". No more following the leader. It's time we punched the leader in the back of the head, picked up his sword and started leading this race for ourselves.

In 2009...$25-$30,000 will buy you a car named Camaro that will look great and be fast as hell.

.....isn't that what we all wanted in the first place?

[Steve Chryssos]

Charley,
Please clarify. Are you dissapointed that the design is not retro enough in general? or are you dissapointed that the design does not possess 69 specific cues?

Here's what I know for sure:
1) Charley has seen it in person and I (most of us) have not.
2) It's just a concept car.
3) GM concepts generally go thru major changes once the beancounters, lawyers and government agencies get a hold of them.
4) The car--IF PRODUCED will be released in 2008 or 2009, so it will be for sale in the next decade.
5) The competition is significantly more retro and will therefore consume that market share.
6) In 2012 Charley will be umm 2012 minus 2006.....58!! Whoa.

I prioritized those six given facts. Charley has seen it and we haven't. So we should listen to what he says. (I hate it when people bounce off the rev limiter about a car that they haven't actually seen). Chrysler does a much better job of pulling concept cars forward to production. We can expect the new Camaro to change significantly--as seen with the new Mustang. The Challenger may be closer to reality. By 2012, the folks who have fond and fuzzy memories of 69 Camaros will be few and far between (fewer and farther than it already is)
52 to 58 year olds are NOT the target demographic. And Charley is not a "top of the bell curve" 52 year old (sorry dude). Actually I have yet to zero-in on the actual demographic. The 20-somethings can't afford it and its insurance. The 30-somethings have to appease their wives. The 40-somethings and up have waaaaay too many choices.
The Mustang is a hit soley because it has no primary competition. Carve the pie up three ways and all three brands are screwed. So this whole conversation may be futile.

How'd I do?

[rob07002]

Well here goes. Lord knows I've been very critical of GM recently, hence "The General is Dead" thread I started awile ago and got some heat for. For the record I am thrilled to death that at least they are considering a Camaro comeback, and will probably buy one whatever it looks like if it makes production.... BUT, I do agree with Charlie in some respects. GM needs a hit badly! Some say that if a retro 69 is produced where do they go from there so building a first gen "looking" Camaro gives them room to grow and "if" they need to can fall back on the 69 design. Well this type of thinking is exactly why the GTO is somewhat a failure.. If they would have launced the new GTO with a balls to the wall design and marketed it as the second coming, they would have to beat away customers. My advice is this, its all or nothing guys, you can't get alittle bit pregnant!... Your either back in the muscle car biz or not.. Don't just throw a car out there and say well if it does ok, then maybe we'll continue. GM's current "performance" line up looks like the parking lot at the AARP headquaters... All with "SS" slapped on the sides...

I somewhat like the concept car, the front, especially the grill need some tweaking, and the taillights are tolorable... buts its definatly not a HOME RUN yet.... Its true the drivtrain division has definatly got their ***** together, so funnel some reasources to the design team and build the car that everyone will what... If done right, you will have people lined up the night before at a dealership like it a friggin Stones concert... This one little car can create such a buzz, that it could single handed turn the ship around for them... Lets face it its not just enormous debt, too many factories, bad pension contracts, union woes, etc that contributed to GM's slide, it lack of sales pur and simple... If more comes in then goes out, you have a profit and all that other stuff makes a small impact.

I've read all the posts since the unvieling.. and wanted to qualify my remarks before I opened my mouth because I feel strongly about this car.. I really like the Challenger, that is well done from a design standpoint. To the GM designers: Guys your almost there, give the people what they want and see what happens.... I personally can't wait....

[Charley Lillard]

Steve...I was amazed at how Ford and Chrysler were able to capture the 60's look in a new car. A 67-9 Camaro is a very classic and I think timeless design. I would think that GM would also have the ability to capture that same first gen look in a modern car and I think it would sell. If they want it to have legs start with a 67 look , then 68 and then 69. I would probably want one of each. I would be like a kid at Xmas watching to see if they nailed the look each time. The new car is still a very nice car and it looks alot better than the 4th gen. Tweak it more retro and I am there.

[CAMAROBOY69]

Charley is one of the first members I have seen that thought exactly what I was thinking. If they would have made it look more like a 69 Camaro then I would have loved it. But for now I really dont care much for it at all. Like Frank said. Look how sick a 98-02 ram air Trans Am looks. Set that next to the new Camaro concept and the Trans am looks a lot better IMO. Thats my feedback on the new Camaro.
I think the Challenger looks great and they nailed the retro feel for that car and I think Camaro should do the same thing.
It definelty looks better than the 4th gen Camaro but not better than the 4th gen Trans Am IMO.

[Steve Chryssos]

Steve...I was amazed at how Ford and Chrysler were able to capture the 60's look in a new car. A 67-9 Camaro is a very classic and I think timeless design. .....Tweak it more retro and I am there.

Like I said, you saw it and I didn't. So that's what I wanted to hear: Tweak it. They already nailed the roof line and the fender peaks. The timeless 69 cues are:
The headlights moved closer to vehicle centerline--very doable. They should be round as well.
The 69 fender eyebrows (or creases or protuberances or whatever you call em) are doable if done in conjunction with a round wheel arch--just like John McBride's artist rendering.

[Ralph LoGrasso]

Perhaps I'm in the minority, but I'm just as concerned with performance as I am looks. If the performance is there, I might be able to turn my head a little bit and choose to not become absorbed in some of the styling flaws that exist. However, with this car, in my mind, these flaws do not exist at all. Rather, GM hit the nail on the head, for what I as a 20 year old, would want in a new Camaro. Steve did a good job in discussing the demographic that GM is looking to hit with these cars. While it may not be 20-25 year olds, it’s a guarantee they’re looking to target a younger audience. Aggressive styling with retro cues, and top of the line performance; this is what most asked for, and this is what we received. I'm just not looking for a completely retro car, especially if it's to be rounded out as the new mustang is. In stock form, an '05 mustang just doesn't do it for me. With some attention to detail, and appearance modifications (lowered, wheels, graphics, etc.) they can be made to look real nice, but stock; no dice. This is not to say I wouldn’t buy a new Camaro if it was a completely retro design, as I probably still would (as long as the performance was there). I just think at the end of the day, it’s a smarter move for GM to, “take the road less traveled”.

With the styling aspect covered, I think the overriding focus of the new Camaro is the performance. While there is no hard data available, judging by this cars specs, and the current drive train in the concept car, it's not a long shot to say this car will perform with the best of them. If the weight is somewhere around that of a 4th gen, it should be a mid 12 second car factory. Sure, the Mustang is completely retro, but 300hp and 3800lbs makes for a car that is slower than stock 4th gens. The Challenger? Incredible design and the 6.1 Hemi with a 6spd pistol grip is definitely going to be really cool. However, the 4200lb curb weight is going to make this car tougher to get through corners, stop and accelerate. It's going to need the 425hp just to compete with the other two pony cars, not excel.

GMs power train division will surely hit the mark with this car. I’m willing to see whatever compromises need to be made to see the car through to fruition. If that means making it more retro, then that is fine with me, I’m all for it. If it’s thought that the new concept will sell better than a retro design, then go with that, as I’m a big fan of it. My paramount desire with the new Camaro, is just that—a new Camaro. Whether it’s retro, or a new design with retro cues, I just want the Camaro back on showroom floors, and most importantly, back out on the streets: recapturing its crown.

My $.02.

[BADVELLE]

No offence guys but you need to move on; building another 69 camaro in 2008 doesn’t really do it for me nor do I think it does a lot form my demographic. Is it a pipe dream for my generation? Yeah it might be, but will it draw them into the showrooms? Probably not, but an STi or an EVO IV does and they are butt ugly. To be honest I think a lot of you feel that the only way GM could do something right, is to repeat what they did in the good ole days (your childhood). Yes I am assuming that you are a baby boomer but for someone like me who is 20, I have no desire for GM to build another 69 camaro in 2008.

I bought a 69 camaro built in 1969 because I thought it was the best looking car ever made. And this is what really aggravates me, many of you on this board voice you opinion ever so loudly on how the new camaro should be built/look, based on how you remember it as a kid. But be honest with your self, for most of you the next car you buy will be a mini van; yeah you they guy with three kids! Yes I know I will get a lot of flack for this, and yes I know there are some exceptions like Charley, who has 74832424 million dollars and 489324892 camaros but admit it most of you will never buy one no matter how good it looks. Really, move on and stop trying to create a car that you will never buy.

I don’t think that anyone from GM looks at these boards but if they do. PLEASE GET THE CAMARO IN ITS CURRENT FORM TO MARKET AS FAST AS YOU CAN. PLEASE DON’T LISTEN TO THESE PEOPLE WHO ARE ONLY TRYING TO RELIVE THERE CHILDHOOD. I AM 20 YEARS OLD AND OWN A 1969 CAMARO AND ABSOLUTLY LOVE HOW THE NEW ONE LOOKS AND I HAVE ALREADY STARTED PUTTING AWAY MONEY TO BUY A NEW ONE WHEN IT COMES OUT!

I guess I am confused, are you 20 years old?? If so, how in the hell did you buy a Camaro back in '69?? If you don't like opinions from others on the board, just stay off! I for one am tired of one person ripping the other, leave it alone. There are a lot of people on this board (me included) that value the opinion and input from someone like Charley, expecially when you look at some of the vehicles he has in his posession, he has some pretty good taste in automobiles!

As for me, I am not a Camaro person (but I will not badmouth the Camaro, it still is a very attractive vehicle, especially the '69), I prefer the 1970 Chevelle I have and I don't think anyone can ever duplicate the styling from that era. However, Ford came very close with the new Mustang and it has sold like hotcakes, so there is something to say about the "retro" styling cues in these new models. I see young an old driving the new Mustang, so I would have to say that Ford has nailed the demographics for selling that vehicle.

I would say that most GM fans on this board and in the world want to see GM succeed with this new model and the majority feel it should have more styling references to the '69, I also agree with this idea and I am 32 years old, so I did not have the opportunity to buy a car back in those days. If I could go back to a time in the past, it would be the muscle car days of old, isn't that what bringing back the Camaro, Chevelle, Charger or Mustang is about?!?! If the auto companies are not going to follow this line of thinking, then why bring back a muscle care name from days of the past? GM has already tarnished names from the "good ole" days, namely the Malibu (which my '70 is), Nova from the late 80's (I believe) & Impala (not the mid-90's version).

Just my .10 cents worth of comment.

[derekf]

Please keep it civil and avoid 'calling each other out'.

You've all got opinions and they're all correct. If you like the car as it sits, great. If there's stuff you'd like to see changed, that's great too - but the folks who like it as it sits aren't "wrong"; and vice-versa.

I'd be willing to bet that at least some of the folks from GM design read posts on the site occasionally (even if they're not registered) and while they'd likely read posts on people's opinions I doubt they'd be too interested in digging through person A's opinion of person B's opinion, so they wouldn't bother.

I'd really prefer to avoid having to edit people's posts. Let's keep it focused on the car.

[steemin]

The word "TIMELESS" has come up a couple of times in this thread.
What does it mean when one calls a design timeless?
It means that it will survive the test of time and will work today as well as it did when it first appeared...
I really do not get the fears expressed regarding the concern that Ford now has no where to go with the Mustang.
Should auto manufactures avoid building Home Run Retro designs due to fears of "where do we go from here?
(Please no more Mustang vs. PT Cruiser comparisons :lol: )
Ford hit a Home Run with the 05 Mustang and I am pretty sure they have no regrets.
As a side note: If the Challenger that we have recently seen goes into production that car will sell like hot cakes..It is AWESOME
Scott

[JMarsa]

error...

[JMarsa]

I'm probably one of the only people here (mid 30's male) who was hoping the
new Camaro wouldn't be so...Camaro'ish. The Camaro has always had lots of hot
rodding potential but suffered in so many areas that it's never been a great
car. Outside of the coveted 3 year run of the first gen, there are 30
other years of Camaros. While on par for their time, by today's standards
they suffer from tiny trunks, weak chassis, wrinkled quarters from big blocks,
long door syndrome, average handling, lackluster styling, squeaks and rattles,
the list can go on...

But we're here because we are hot rodders and don't like things stock. We make
our cars into something better than how they left the factory. That said, I'm
not interested in retro from a all new car that was on hiatus. Styling cues to
reflect the good things about it's heritage are fine with me. I think the
total throw back to the first gen dash and center console is a step in the
wrong direction. Not enough drivers information on those set-ups and in the
wrong places.

What I'm looking for is a car that lays to rest all the bad traits and sets
the mark going forward. I think it's possible from a pony car. What's wrong
with a pony car being ahead if it's time? I love the fact it's got IRS (if
straight lines are your thing I'm sure a 9" will easily be adapted). I want a
car that is 3500lbs or less, stops and handles very well. It should be athletic,
not a one trick pony, narrow and short enough to have balance and a nimble
feeling. When it comes to price, it should be 10-15K less than a Vette which
is very capable in those areas.

I truly feel the reason that the reason the Mustang has outsold the F-bodies
in the last decade was due to it's proportions and the car's mass market appeal.
The Mustang was balanced in it's design. It didn't have too long of a hood or
doors, not too short in the tail, not too low to the ground. Hey, it was even
available as rental car. F-bodies never had that kind of fleet sales.

With the new car, I'm hoping it's not too late for a car that is ground
breaking.

--JMarsa

[ramz69ss]

i think everyones points have merit,,,,i love the 69 camaro,,i have two,,,have had 2-67s as well,,,,but i don't like the fact they push air like a semi-truck,,,,a retro design would be wicked,,,but i want a more aerodynamic package,,most of us can't have 1000 hp motors to push a brick,,,so i think a retro design is pointless,,,buy one of those repo bodys and a gm warranted motor and trans,if you like the old look,and want a warranty,,,,,i think they need to keep the current concept but fix the grill and taillight areas,,no inset areas,,,,i have showed the pics of the new camaro to everyone i know,,,everyone wants one,,,old and young,,,mainly the younger crowd is digging the new look,,,it looks enough like a camaro to know what it is but different enough not to look like a old camaro with round off edges,,,,i am proud of them,i think they captured 60's camaro soul and put it in a 2000's camaro body

[6'9"Witha69]

As a '69 owner (had it 8 1/2 Years) I love the design of the 69. I love the retro ques, but I like where they stopped. At just ques. I would like to see it a little rounder, yes. The tail lights are cool (they have the mean look) BUT, they could be better. It does look like there was new Caddy styling in there. (side note, Cadillac: Next time you re-design your line-up, make your cars look different! I can't tell a CTS from an STS from a DTS from 100 ft.). Anyway, I have to agree that aerodynamics must play a role here, and that the new cars must be able to cut through the air better! This changes the style!! I hope Dodge does build the Challenger as it sits because it looks like it has the aerodynamics of a bookshelf, as did all cars from the 60s. Great, Chevy will be (hopefully) lighter and have better aero with as much HP=Faster! As I have said before in another post, I want a fifth gen! Not a recycled first!

[Doug Harden]

I was there and saw it for myself......and I too have owned a dozen 1969 Camaros and still own an RS/SS.......but I don't need another one....I LOVE the new Camaro Concept...ALL of it.

For everyone on here that loves dead nuts retro, there are 10x on many other boards that hate it....it's a dead end street, styling wise.

This ain't 1969, it's going to be at least 2008 before we can buy it....the Mustang will have already been restyled by then and the Challenger will look like the weak attempt at real styling that it is...what a cop out....musta' paid their "designers" minimum wage.

Besides, the Mustang isn't as retro as you might think....simply park it next ot the previous version and it's more of an evolution than revolution....the front end is the only real retro cue.

The Mustang is selling in big numbers because it has NO competition at the moment.

The new Camaro concept is everything I would have hoped for in a concept......strong heritage styling cues blended with a modern look.....one that won't look old in a year or two.

[Damn True]

IMO the demographic for this car is about the same as it was the first time around. Roughly 25-45 and 45 may be a stretch 39 is probably closer.

If you look at the cars that would appeal to that group in 67-69 the offerings were pretty slim if you wanted a stylish performance car at a reasonable price.

Camaro
Chevelle
Mustang
Torino
Cuda/Challenger
Dart

Unless you had the coin for a Vette, Porsche or something even more esoteric that was it. The market was split between those cars.

Well, there is a lot more variety now. In "performance" or sporty coupes and sedans under $35k.
Mustang
Charger
Magnum
SRT4
STi
Evo
BMW 3-series
Lexus IS-300
Infinity G-35
Audi A-4
Mazda 6
Mini
Jetta/Passat
Acura TSX
Maxima
Altima
Jag X-type
SAAB 9-3 and 9-5
350-z

...and take into account that the average buyer nowadays sees imports as being higher in overall quality and value than domestic cars. So they guy that would have bought a Camaro or Mustang in '69 has a lot more to choose from now than he ever did, and for the most part, that guy is choosing an import. Look out the side window on your drive home from work what's that dude driving?

So there are two challenges in bringing to market a new "ponycar".

a) Satisfy the faithfull.
b) Win back those who have left.

The problem is that from a business standpoint "A" (that's us) is a statistical blip on the radar. What we want is valuable to be sure as the performance "image" is created and supported by what we do with the cars. That image is what the "B" group is buying into.

Example: Jeep. 90% of people who buy a Wrangler Rubicon will never take it off-road, much less cross the Rubicon. But the people that buy them are buying into the image created by those who do.

Be clear, the Mustang is selling well. But people aren't linning up in droves to trade in thier performance imports to get one. So in order for GM to win back the guy who drives an IS-300, G35 or 325i they have to provide something that is compelling on a number of fronts.

It has to not break: Let's be honest here a '69 Camaro requires a lot of maint. If GM builds a "copy" of the '69 they will be up against that mindset in the guy mentioned above. It can't look too much like an old car because in his mind, "Old cars break."

It has to look good w/o being a stylistic freakshow. GM can't go either too far back in time, or too far forward. Ever notice how similar in profile a Toyota sedan is to a BMW is to a Lexus is to a Honda? There is a comfort level that people have. Go too far outside of that and people will be turned off. Case in point: Chrysler Crossfire (too far forward) and Ford T-bird (too far back)...woops.

It has to perform both in a agressive driving sense, and in a day to day use sense. It can't just be a straight line hero. It can't just be a corner carving scythe. It has to have a usefull back seat. It has to have reasonable trunk space. It has to get decent mileage. A G-35 sedan is silly fast for what it is and handles great, but you can also take your wife and two kids and comfortably drive the thing from San Francisco to LA.

So while the idea of a '69 Camaro redux sounds attractive, the simple fact is that the market for that car is absurdly small. There aren't a lot of guys like us out there.
The market may support a fifth gen. But it can't support a recycled first.

[Jim Nilsen]

The great thing about the Camaro until the 4th gen was that it never looked like any other car. The new design already has Cadillac slammed on it by many.
I like retro but only in a few hints of styling. if you look at each gen of Camaros you can see a few links to each one yet they look like totally different cars. The new Camaro needs that to sell to everyone not just us hardcore car guys.

I don't know what it is really going to take to do it but it just isn't there for me yet. I like McBrides concept a lot and I really do think that starting with the 67 instead of the 69 retro look that Charlie is talking about is a way to make it last 10 years.

I still think that the new Camaro should be built on a 4 seater Corvette platform. The 1st gen was almost built that way but the cowl was too low for some of the packaging so they went with the Nova platform for the cowl. How many different ways can an engineer make the Corvette style platform less expensive to make? Plenty if you think about it. With the differences in materials and the larger size of the whole package it would seperate the 2 completely yet with the right amount of effort and money a guy could put all of the high end parts right on the Camaro and it would all be off of the shelf. I know it's just a thought that I am stuck on but the thought of the new Camaro being as good almost as the Vette is what we do here everyday so why not make it so that we have a future in making our cars better. The way things are going you won't be able to put custom parts on in the future and stock parts will be ok so long as they aren't modified. But what the heck do I know for sure any beter than anyone else?

I can say this: unless the world changes and I can afford to buy a new Camaro it won't make any difference if I like it until they are already used and probably abused and need to be fixed up. The guy who said my next vehicle would be a minivan was close but still not the cigar. My next new vehicle will more than likely have to be a truck unfortunately, needs are needs and a man has to work and a truck works. So I will look and dream and hope that others can influence the new Camaro to be something they want now and when later gets here it still is. The whole lack of having a Camaro for now is wrong from the beginning of the reasons why. The UAW should try to remember what happened here and GM should hope that rules and regulations along with cost don't kill it all before it happens again.

Make it fast, functional,realistically affordable to all even if you need to have a 4cyl option and most of all make it different with a few accents of Camaro heritage and I think it will be a hit in the long run. Most people didn't like the Camaro when it first came out everytime they changed it but it grew on them over the years and maybe because they didn't make as many is why they are also so appealing down the road.

Jim Nilsen

[USAZR1]

I like parts of that Camaro but the styling is still too angular for me. What's wrong with rounded fenders? The car looks like it was designed by Cadillac to me.
Just my opinion but Kris Horton's concept would have been the one to lead Chevy out of the darkness. Remember,it only takes ONE monster year in sales to get things back on track.

Performance isn't everything. The Gen IV Camaros proved that. They consistently outperformed the Mustang in everything but sales.

[Nine Ball]

I was there and saw it for myself......and I too have owned a dozen 1969 Camaros and still own an RS/SS.......but I don't need another one....I LOVE the new Camaro Concept...ALL of it.

For everyone on here that loves dead nuts retro, there are 10x on many other boards that hate it....it's a dead end street, styling wise.

This ain't 1969, it's going to be at least 2008 before we can buy it....the Mustang will have already been restyled by then and the Challenger will look like the weak attempt at real styling that it is...what a cop out....musta' paid their "designers" minimum wage.

Besides, the Mustang isn't as retro as you might think....simply park it next ot the previous version and it's more of an evolution than revolution....the front end is the only real retro cue.

The Mustang is selling in big numbers because it has NO competition at the moment.

The new Camaro concept is everything I would have hoped for in a concept......strong heritage styling cues blended with a modern look.....one that won't look old in a year or two.

Doug, even though we had a rocky start, I agree 100% with what you wrote here. Scary huh?

My first car was a 69 Camaro. Its my favorite year Camaro, which is probably obvious since I just finished building a 69 and then bought another 69. I love the 69 Camaro! But, I don't want a "new" 2008 69 Camaro. I'd rather have a modern looking car with Camaro heritage mixed in. I think GM did an excellent job of capturing the heritage with this concept. If it were in the dealerships now, i'd probably buy two of them. One to drive daily, the other to turn into a drag race car.

But, if GM takes too long I'll probably buy a Mustang Cobra and a Challenger to have fun with until the Camaro comes out.

Tony

[Doug Harden]

Tony,

We're fine....emotions were out of control and things got blown WAY out of porportion.....but it's all water under the bridge as far as I'm concerned. We're both passionate enthusiasts and it shows.

Honestly, the Camaro HAS to keep moving forward...with it's past as it's strength.

I LOVE the new Camaro and will be the first in line when the new Z/28 arrives....count on it.

[PonchoJohn]

My take on it...

I'm in my mid 30's and this car does the same thing for me that an early model Camaro did when I was 15. I get a little giddy inside at the whole notion of a cool looking new F car. I REALLY!!!! want a Pontiac version (maybe the new GTO will look like Steve Stanford's drawings from a few years back, since they'll share the same platform), but all things in time.
If you weren't around when musclecars where new (or used cars on the lots), it's hard to explain. I remember my first ride in a 440 Charger. Every gear change slammed me back!! What a sensation!! I remember my dad's early 70's Firebirds. I remember my uncle's 68 Camaro. I remember all the aspects (good or bad) of these cars. That is (for me) the defining and driving force in my love of musclecars.
This new car gave me that feeling. I was somewhat let down by the '04 GTO. I wanted that F-You, in your face, take no prisoners styling and performance. You know, a PONTIAC styled car. The GTO that we got is a good car- no, it's a great car- it just lacks the emotional draw that the new Camaro has.
I'm a big fan of the '69 Camaro, but I don't want a total retake of it. I think the '05 Mustang has the right idea- look old school, but at the same time, don't.

[dropit69]

im early 30's..im kinda in between too..im just hopping they dont throw out a 6 banger model to over populate the streets with the same looking car im already tired of seeing the new mustang..and i looked at a new convertible gt..38k ..whoa..for not much more i can have a vette that blows the stang away..keep it in the under 30 range and keep them 8 cyl..just my 2 cents,,

[steemin]

Just a couple of points that I would like to make..
First of all a site like this is not where GM would go to look for Focus group input. We are by and large hard core enthusiasts that really do not represent the purchasing habits of the mainstream..
If they were to build a car to fulfill our wants and needs they would fall into even deeper financial trouble.
I respectfully disagree that auto manufactures should not build a "Retro" car simply because they will "have no where to go from there"
Like it or not..Ford hit a Grand Slam Home Run with the Retro designed 05 Mustang. I am sure that they have no regrets and that they are not losing sleep over what are they going to do now.
And please no more comparisons between the PT Cruiser and Mustangs/Camaro's :lmao:
Bottom line is GM needs to figure out what design choice will sell cars.
Because that is what keeps the doors open for these financially strapped auto manufacturers.
Final point I would like for everyone to consider..
Why do we take our old cars and attempt to make them perform,handle brake and be reliable like a newer high performance car?
Because we love the old school look but we don't care for the old school tech.
Guess what... that is exactly the same reasons why people crave the Retro designs...:twothumbs
Scott

[justanova]

I am 24 and I like the new concept, yeah theres a few things I would change but not much, keep em v8 just use a small one for the base model like the 4.8. but also have a no option car that you can get the big v8 and keep it under 25K. but have the options that will push it to the mid 30K(leather, t-tops/sunroof, pwr seats etc...) for those who want em. If I could buy that new camaro with the big v8 and pwr windows/locks and ac being the only options for under 25 I would be all over it.

[Damn True]

And please no more comparisons between the PT Cruiser and Mustangs/Camaro's :lmao:

Scott

Ok, how about the new/old T-bird?

[96Z28SS]

Ok, how about the new/old T-bird?
The new t-bird didn't do well cause of the price tag, it was too expensive for what it was.

[zo66]

beating the horse,
i am 52 had a 68 camaro in 71,slammed a mail box on the hood and tunnel ram ,with air shocks and my main ambition was to try to get the front end off the ground,probably not too different than alot of other guys ,i traded that car for an 64 vette,and a few more,then went german had lots of bimmers cause the drove like no american car i had owned.about ten years ago i began playing with corvettes again,buy one fix it up sell it,which led me to my zo66 pro touring style car and to this site,i now have a 69 camaro that i am supporting alot of this sites sponsers with and hope to have a blast with the car when its done,you know a 69 with 500 hp that will actually turn and stop,that looks like a 69 only better because of the better wheels and all the stuff,.....i like a 69 that is a 69 only better and have enjoyed that process and all of the people that go into the hobby,i hope that they build the 5th gen camaro
not restamp the 69, i too thought the new mustang was cool 2 years ago now with them on every corner they have lost there appeal,i also think the new challenger is cool but just a dedicated knock off , i want a new zo6 with a back seat to go out and buy,something that will make the world market crave american style and muscle the way we have fallen for their cars.we dont need more donor parts cars for our real 69s
we need a new camaro imo......

[Yenkostyle]

I am 32 and own my 1969 Camaro... Honestly I don’t want a wannabe 1969 Camaro. I want something that people can identify as a Camaro and I think GM did that in this concept.

As most everyone has stated, there are things about it I don’t like but the concept does say Camaro to me and that is what I am looking for.

Probably more important is going to be the performance. Can this thing compete or outperform it's competition? I don’t want to throw my money to a car that gets spanked by a turbo 4 cyl. I think GM has there work cut out for them in that department. To me, and here I ruffle purists feathers, all wheel drive would be awesome in this car. maybe have it as an option in the High end version (SS or Z/28)as Nissan does with the skyline GTR. That is the types of things that would get me real excited about any of the US pony cars, especially the new Camaro.

I think everybody has what they think would be "ideal" as the next gen but all of us are enthusiasts and we all have our own ideas as what would be "hot". Seriously though, just take a look on this site as far as how diverse each persons cars are. We all like different aspects about the same year/make of car and that shows in how we build them. I doubt if GM is going to make every person satisfied...maybe just happy???

Truthfully, that is good enough for me because I don’t think GM or any other auto maker is going to build a car just for me. That’s what the aftermarket companies are for:fingersx:





Just my 2 cents worth.

[J-Rod]

Charley, and anyone else that had the pleasure of seeing it in person...

Did the camaro seem massive to you? It sure did to me. I stood next to the red one at the LA auto show and it seemed huge! I mean, it's a little chunk in front, but man...

Large.

Either way....

http://jcald.com/pics/laautoshow/2006/?fidx=93

That looks f'n MEAN.

[southernfriedcj]

If the general had just copied the renderings in PHR(Kris Horton?) we wouldn't need to bash this car. When it comes to design GM is clueless. The new Vette is uglier than a can of smashed a$$holes(although it is a performance bargin). The GM truck line could scare the smell out of a skunk.
Keep it simple. reintroduce the '69 Camaro for a 5 year run, and follow that with a '70 Camaro for a five year run. I'll take one of each, RS Z/28, Hugger Orange with black stripes.
As far as retro styling, the new Mustang and the Challenger concepts are sweet, but when I have my '66 Fastback out and about I hear a "wanna trade" comment from new Mustang owners so often that my wife says it before they do.

JMHFO

Jim

[z4me69]

southernfried thats my opinion also the first time my wife saw the new camaro she thought it was a mustang you are right about the design team just look at the hhr put it next to a pt cruiser yep there darn near twins thats gm,s design team. but you have to give credit where due gm powertrain is on the ball the ls1 ls2 are second to none sorry if this steps on ant toes but thats my opinion

[steemin]

Ok, how about the new/old T-bird?

You are correct that was a failure for Ford.
The reasons IMHO..
Over priced...WAY under powered....and as was mentioned in an earlier post: the guys that desired a 55-57 bird back in the day are now in their late 60's early 70's. This is the wrong demographic to target for a retro design product.
Scott

[David Pozzi]

I don't need a complete retro 69, but a little more than what this car has now would add some appeal.

[Doug Harden]

How many of the "more retro" crowd have seen it in person?

I think it'll change a few minds when you do get a chance.

[Nine Ball]

I just got home from the Houston Camaro Club meeting. Its a nice sized group of 1st gen owners. They were all passing the photos around tonight, and every single one of them loved the car. Several said they would buy it today if it were available. I'm one of the younger guys in the club at 33, but it was good to see that 1st gen enthusiasts were excited about it. They didn't really care much for the 4th gen.

Tony

[Neil B]

Here's my thirty-something random set of opinions....

I like the design but I don't love it. What I don't like, the aftermarket will fix. I'm a hot rodder, so I'll probably want to change it anyway.

The reality is that I really don't have a reason to buy one. It can't replace my daily driver BMW - I'd feel silly if my clients saw me in it. It can't replace my '69 Camaro because it ain't cool enough. I guess I could make it a project car or go road racing with it.

Now if I were twenty-something again, I'd buy it in a heartbeat. I'd drive it to work, thrash it at the strip, etc. etc. But if I were in my twenties, I probably wouldn't own a '69 Camaro, I probably wouldn't have lusted over one as a kid, and I wouldn't be complaining that the new concept doesn't look enough like the '69.

I guess my point is that I wish the concept had more styling cues from the cars that set my heart on fire, but I really don't think I'm the target audience.

My .02 for what it's worth.

[qwik1320]

Just another $.02 from a late 30's guy...

I, like some of the other "older" guys, was hoping for something a little more retro. I don't hate the concept, just not totally in love with it (yet). A little tweaking is all it needs. I don't want a new 69 Camaro, I want a new 2007 Camaro that takes a lot of styling ques from the 1st generation Camaros.

Make it fast, make it handle, have 4 seats and 2 doors. And please make it light (weight). Oh, and put 69 Camaro desktops on all the designers pc's and if any of them drive a new Cadillac fire them! :smoke:

[Clsccmro]

Guys you really need to take it easy with the "I like it", "I don't like it."

First of all, I'm just glad to see that the 2009 Camaro is actually real and GM still does care about us, but that's not really the point either.

I'm probably one of the youngest guys on here only being 22, but I hope you'll all think about this for a bit.

I just got finished at school as an Industrial Design Major, and one of the most important things I learned in school was that THE DESIGNER IS NOT THE USER.
What I mean by that is, almost everyone on here has thought about what they would or would not like to see in the next Camaro. You've probably thought about it way too much, as I know I have. Being a designer, I have a very hard time seeing a car not turn out to it's full potential. With that being said, all of us are the minority when it comes to purchasing power for this new machine. We are the guys who are gonna purchase the full blown V8 with almost every option, because we would settle for no less. The masses who are gonna buy these cars are not you and me. They are the, "I don't know how to change my own oil, but I sure do look smooth in my brand new V6 Camaro," people.

GM thinks they'll sell about 150,000 Camaros the first year, 125,000 of which will most likely be V6's. Sad I know, but that's how business has evolved. It's no longer 1969 where just about everyone purchased a V8. It's all about gas mileage and looking good.

I own a 69 and, like many others are definitely saving for this new camaro. It's insanely difficult to please all the different markets involved with this car. Just about everyone at any age could very well be interested in a car like this. It has to be cutting edge, sophisticated, mean, clean, retro, you name it. If you take a look at the car, they've covered a lot of bases in the new design. It will always remain a 50/50 as to who likes it and who doesn't. There are just too many to please. If it was even possible to please every market group, they would be selling a hell of a lot more than just 150,000 cars the first year. More than that were sold back in 69.

My main point to all that rambling was, every design has it's problems, no matter how big or minor they are. Through time things get tweaked here or there, and eventually the design's true potential will be revealed. That's why we are on the 5th Gen. and not the 1st.

[trapin]

If the general had just copied the renderings in PHR(Kris Horton?) we wouldn't need to bash this car. When it comes to design GM is clueless. The new Vette is uglier than a can of smashed a$$holes(although it is a performance bargin). The GM truck line could scare the smell out of a skunk............

JMHFO

Jim
Wow...some great stuff. Spoken like a true hater. Got any more?

[groove22]

I have been lurking for the past few days reading everbodies opinion about the new Camaro, before I post mine. It is a wonderfully styled car. I own a 69 and love it to death there is nothing like it in my opinion. Think back to 66 when Chevy was designing the first gen, it was cutting edge, more aggressive than the mustang harder lines and could perform and even looked fast sitting still. Put the Challenger, Mustang and Camaro (the first few years) next to each other and see which was the more aggressive looking car. I think the design will last a long time, not ten years worth but that is a good thing. Look at all the foreign auto makers no car really last 10 years anymore, maybe 5, case in point the Z/G35 coupe is up for a change soon. I think keeping the same design, for 10 years, with minor changes is bad. I think that has lead up to GMs problems. If you look at the new design long enough, without thinking about the negatives you will see a lot of 69-73 cues.

New Camaro
grill comes to a point at the center and is deep set into the opening (69)
still has round lights on bottom valance, turn or fog (69)
instead of the air dam looking added on it is incorporated (69)
cowl induction hood
side gills
lower hip line (67-68 look)
the rear fender bumps out
four taillights (70-73)
no B-pillar
no wrap around rear window, flat pane, big sails, bad blind spot
marker lights on fenders

Thats just looking at pictures. I will buy it if it is produced, the wife gets my 06 Cooper S. This is just my opinion. I like all cars and see them as art that I can improve on myself.

Allen

[Damn True]

Guys you really need to take it easy with the "I like it", "I don't like it."



Oh pardon me. I thought that was the point.

[6'9"Witha69]

The GM truck line could scare the smell out of a skunk.:squint:

:rotfl:
I love it!! That is why I bought one! Just tough and mean looking.

[southernfriedcj]

Wow...some great stuff. Spoken like a true hater. Got any more?

Tony,
you pegged me. I started out as a GM fan, but they lost me as a customer a long time ago. When it comes to new cars I stick with Volvo(for the wife and kids),Ford and Dodge. I would like to buy a new Z06, but I can't get past the looks. You have a problem with that? Like I said it's JMHFO. Everybody's got one right?

Jim

[southernfriedcj]

:squint:

:rotfl:
I love it!! That is why I bought one! Just tough and mean looking.

There's hope Nick, you've got an F100!:cool:

[Ralph LoGrasso]

Guys you really need to take it easy with the "I like it", "I don't like it."

This thread is based upon the opinion of potential buyers; “I like it” or “I don’t like it” are just that, opinions. Please refrain from asking people to hold their opinions when they are tactfully providing constructive criticism or praise. GM is looking for feedback on the concept Camaro, and response such as this may very well prove to be the aspect that helps bring this car to fruition, and secure its permanence in the market.

[Clsccmro]

I am sorry if I sounded pessimistic in my wording, but I'm not asking people to refrain from their opinions. I am simply asking them to think about what they are saying.

GM doesn't need to hear people saying, "I don't like it, it should look more like a 69." They need to hear what they haven't achieved. There are tons of design aspects that resemble the 69 and many other generations as well, so what exactly have they done wrong. Well, maybe they haven't FULLY pleased the first gen lover, or the second, third or fourth, but I think they did a great job in satisfying the masses who will actually purchase the car. In GM's eyes, yes we do matter, but not near as much as the people who will really allow them to make money off of this car. If they would make more money producing only V6's, then that's what they would do.

So, don't just think about if you like it or not, think about what the masses will like, so that the car can stay around for good. It has to please everyone, not just you.

For the older generation, what will allow the car to get sold to both you and I. And, for the younger generation, what will allow the car to stay retro, but remain on the cutting edge of both technology and aesthetics.

[Damn True]

More suggestions:
The V-6 (or Ecotec) car NEEDS to pull down 30mpg. If GM can make a tank like my Buick LaCrosse (company car) get 30mpg they ought to be able to do it with what I hope will be a much lighter Camaro.

The back seat NEEDS to be functional. Face it, a lot of buyers will be couples or couples with kids. The Mrs. won't be hip to the car if it is too tough to get a baby seat into the back. Adults need to be able to get back there as well. Someone in another discussion (maybe on Lat-G) mentioned that they'd feel like a goof taking clients to lunch in their 4th Gen and that they use their Bimmer 3-series for that kinda thing instead.

[6'9"Witha69]

There's hope Nick, you've got an F100!:cool:
:offtopic: It'd be even better w/o the I beam front end. Stupid dented oil pans!!

[96Z28SS]

I can't tell if this guy liked it or not.

http://www.cars.com/go/features/autoshows/vehicle.jsp?autoshow=Detroit&vehicletype=concept&autoshowyear=2006&vehicle=concept_chevrolet_camaro

[6'9"Witha69]

I can't tell if this guy liked it or not.

http://www.cars.com/go/features/autoshows/vehicle.jsp?autoshow=Detroit&vehicletype=concept&autoshowyear=2006&vehicle=concept_chevrolet_camaro
hhhhmmmmm . . . let me see . . . I think he got lost at the Ford booth on the way to go look at it.