new muscle car concepts...

[psybock]

Hi guys,

check out the photos of the new Dodge Challenger and Chevy Camaro concepts that were debued at the Detroit autoshow today.... both of these are slated for production in the next few years (probably '08 or '09)

Regardles of how you feel about these designs, it's nice to see the pony car wars heating up again!

www.autoweek.com

www.automobilemag.com

www.carspyshots.net (go to the concept car section)

[lftnwhls]

I am a chevy guy to the bone but why cant they produce a car before people are already bored with it. Eg the SSR we saw if for 5 years before they produced it and now look they can't give them away.

I do like the part of the new Camaro have power and 30Mpg.

[Ralph LoGrasso]

I do like the part of the new Camaro have power and 30Mpg.


Chevy's just carrying on the tradition. M6 4th gens make 350hp stock, and get 28-30mpg. It's all in the .5:1 6th gear.

[datsbad]

Man , That Camaro sure is ugly . I would take the dodge!

[clinthart]

Man , That Camaro sure is ugly . I would take the dodge!

Ugly he said. Looks better than their Aveo. At least it looks like they are starting to get a clue. I already started my new savings account for one. I'll park my 2009 Camaro right next to my 1969 Camaro. :)

[datsbad]

Do any of you see a resemblence to the old design? You know the challenger looks like the old one , and the mustangs also , but really this? I dont see it and dont like it at all.

[clinthart]

Do any of you see a resemblence to the old design? You know the challenger looks like the old one , and the mustangs also , but really this? I dont see it and dont like it at all.

Oh yeah. Unmistakable... Camaro.

[datsbad]

Oh yeah. Unmistakable... Camaro.

You spend your money on that one bud. I will keep it for my other 69 camaro vert build, or the mustang.

[datsbad]

Ya know i ended up seeing another link to this somewhere . I would have to say that it does look pretty good. I would still not buy one , but it looks pretty good..

[Ralph LoGrasso]

Do any of you see a resemblence to the old design? You know the challenger looks like the old one , and the mustangs also , but really this? I dont see it and dont like it at all.


The mustang and challenger are complete retro designs, where as the Camaro is not. In all of the polls, emails and feedback that was sent to GM, they were told to design an all new Camaro: that wasn't completely retro, but had styling cues from a first gen. I think they hit the nail on the head, as they left room to progress with this car in a few years, rather than a completely retro design. Complete retro designs really leave no room for future design tweaks, they'll need to be redesigned after their 4 or 5 year run is up.

[steemin]

The mustang and challenger are complete retro designs, where as the Camaro is not. In all of the polls, emails and feedback that was sent to GM, they were told to design an all new Camaro: that wasn't completely retro, but had styling cues from a first gen. I think they hit the nail on the head, as they left room to progress with this car in a few years, rather than a completely retro design. Complete retro designs really leave no room for future design tweaks, they'll need to be redesigned after their 4 or 5 year run is up.

From a Mustang guy:
Thank goodness Ford went in the direction that they did.
They cannot make the 05 and 06 Mustangs fast enough.
This success story will keep the original (and the only one left)
Pony car going for several more years!
Scott

[formula]

I'm an avid investor, and one thing that investing has taught me is that a company that can continue selling a product longterm will be more successful than a company who sells a lot of a product short term. The most successful stock of all time is the company that invented the rotating-ball head faucet. Other huge moneymakers have been cigarette companies, plastic fork manufacturers, and grocery store coupon processing firms. Tech stocks may have made a lot of money for a short time, but unless you pulled out at the right time they were ultimately a pretty shoddy investment.

The current mustang is a great ford bailout, no doubt. At the end of the day, though, it's a quick buck. Unless they manage to make another fad after this one, they've shot themselves in the foot stylistically.

Look at the scond generation PT cruiser and vw new beetle, arguably the flagships for affordable retro style. They look so similar to the old ones that I bet a lot of you didn't even realize they'd been redesigned. I believe that the mustang may be doomed to the same fate. They're either going to have to do another ground up redesign or just bite the bullet and watch sales lag and lag and lag like new beetle sales have.

The camaro is truly a fifth design, with a few carryover styling cues from previous designs. They can do all kinds of crazy stuff with it in the future because they're not constrained by what they already did 40 years ago.

By the way, from my personal point of view, I don't know where all of this retro junk came from anyway. The second gen camaros looked nothing like the first, The third looked nothing like the second, The fourth looked nothing like the third...Why the heck do people deride the fifth gen for looking different from its predecessors?

Same with mustangs...The 60's looked pretty much nothin like the 70's, 70's looked absolutely nothin like the 80's, and the 80's were a far cry from the 90's...

Retro styling reminds me of a skit michael nesmith used to do way back in the day about american auto companies. He played an auto exec discussing their newest cars. "Take this year's model," he would say, "It's last year's model! we just turned the seats around and added this cheap, tacky fleur-de-lis!"

I guess I'm the only person who doesn't see a complete lack of innovation in automotive design as a good thing.

[derekf]

Retro styling reminds me of a skit michael nesmith used to do way back in the day about american auto companies. He played an auto exec discussing their newest cars. "Take this year's model," he would say, "It's last year's model! we just turned the seats around and added this cheap, tacky fleur-de-lis!"

Off topic: Wow. I thought I was the only person who ever saw Elephant Parts.

/off-topic
On-topic:

Coworker at work today showed me a pic of the new Lamborghini Miura concept - it looked EXACTLY like the old Miura, with some ground effects added. I love the old Miura. It still looks as good as it always did.

[Ralph LoGrasso]

From a Mustang guy:
Thank goodness Ford went in the direction that they did.
They cannot make the 05 and 06 Mustangs fast enough.
This success story will keep the original (and the only one left)
Pony car going for several more years!
Scott

I see your point, but where does Ford go in 2009 or 2010 when the car needs a facelift? Maybe they can pull a few design tricks and make it look a bit more like the original concept car, with the door vents, etc. (which I liked better, btw) and get by another two or three years, but then what? A retro Mustang II?

[steemin]

Ford's continued success with Mustang sales over the last 40+ years is hard to argue with..
I am confident in Fords ability to keep giving its buying public what it wants in a Mustang..
Obviously no one knows what will happen in the future but I would not bet against Ford when it comes to keeping the Pony alive and well..
Scott

[Bob Johnson]

If GM makes as big a splash with the Camaro as Ford has with their Mustang, I'll be surprised.. and they will be elated.. if they ever get it to market..they need to get their head out of the sand..they hardly influence much less dominate market trends like they once did..no one is saying a whole product line should be retro..I think it's good strategy to have one in your lineup until everyone starts doing and it gets old hat..wanna make a bet on how well the Toyota retro FJ Cruiser sells? It's a modern looking vehicle with the FJ styling cues and it's gonna sell like hell..invest in Toyota..not GM..until they get their head out of the sand which I hope is very soon..

[Bob Johnson]

I'm an avid investor, and one thing that investing has taught me is that a company that can continue selling a product longterm will be more successful than a company who sells a lot of a product short term. The most successful stock of all time is the company that invented the rotating-ball head faucet. Other huge moneymakers have been cigarette companies, plastic fork manufacturers, and grocery store coupon processing firms. Tech stocks may have made a lot of money for a short time, but unless you pulled out at the right time they were ultimately a pretty shoddy investment.

The current mustang is a great ford bailout, no doubt. At the end of the day, though, it's a quick buck. Unless they manage to make another fad after this one, they've shot themselves in the foot stylistically.

Look at the scond generation PT cruiser and vw new beetle, arguably the flagships for affordable retro style. They look so similar to the old ones that I bet a lot of you didn't even realize they'd been redesigned. I believe that the mustang may be doomed to the same fate. They're either going to have to do another ground up redesign or just bite the bullet and watch sales lag and lag and lag like new beetle sales have.

The camaro is truly a fifth design, with a few carryover styling cues from previous designs. They can do all kinds of crazy stuff with it in the future because they're not constrained by what they already did 40 years ago.

By the way, from my personal point of view, I don't know where all of this retro junk came from anyway. The second gen camaros looked nothing like the first, The third looked nothing like the second, The fourth looked nothing like the third...Why the heck do people deride the fifth gen for looking different from its predecessors?

Same with mustangs...The 60's looked pretty much nothin like the 70's, 70's looked absolutely nothin like the 80's, and the 80's were a far cry from the 90's...

Retro styling reminds me of a skit michael nesmith used to do way back in the day about american auto companies. He played an auto exec discussing their newest cars. "Take this year's model," he would say, "It's last year's model! we just turned the seats around and added this cheap, tacky fleur-de-lis!"

I guess I'm the only person who doesn't see a complete lack of innovation in automotive design as a good thing.
ask Bill Gates how shoddy an investment tech stocks are...that faucet dude made his faucet a long time before ol Bill did his software..I don't recall seeing some faucet guy at the top of the Forbes List..fact is I don't recall him on the list period..you just wish as I do that you were avid enough to have bought a ton of it early on..in fact a pound or two would be very nice about now

[formula]

ask Bill Gates how shoddy an investment tech stocks are...that faucet dude made his faucet a long time before ol Bill did his software..I don't recall seeing some faucet guy at the top of the Forbes List..fact is I don't recall him on the list period..you just wish as I do that you were avid enough to have bought a ton of it early on..in fact a pound or two would be very nice about now

Bill Gates just sunk close to half a billion into berkshire hathaway, a company that has historically avoided technology like the plague and yet is incredibly successful.

Yeah microsoft would have been nice, but it's not a "tech stock" like i was referring to. Theres nothing wrong with investing in technology stocks as long as the company behind it is well-run and profitable. Microsoft has created a product that keeps getting bought-windows and its associated programs, like office. They have created a market for their own product by perpetually creating better versions of their own stuff so that people have to continue buying.

The tech stocks i was referring to were the stuff that popped up in 1999 that had no business model and no real market. They rode the fad. Kinda like how retro is a fad. Riding the fad is a bad way to make money, unless you can create another fad when your fad runs out. Look at where all the internet solutions companies that cropped up everywhere are now.

In the same manner, unless Ford can create another fad with the next Mustang, they are going to have one heck of a challenge on their hands in a few years.

This is not to say that I don't like the mustang- I do, a lot. Enough that I may even buy one some day. I just think that GM is making a much more intelligent decision with their design direction than Ford and Chrysler are.

By the way, who says I don't own microsoft? And even if I don't, I didn't lose a dime of money not investing in it. In fact, I just didn't buy ten stocks, but I have the same amount of money I had before I didn't buy them. The only time I lose money in the market is when I either make a bad investment or I make a good investment and give up too soon on it.

p.s. just cause you haven't heard about a stock through forbes doesn't mean its not a good buy. That faucet company has risen close to two hundred thousand percent since their IPO.

[formula]

Off topic: Wow. I thought I was the only person who ever saw Elephant Parts.


HELL YEA!! I actually have the original VHS. I still watch it all the time!

"You must remember this.............................................. ............Thank you!!"

[USAZR1]

Sorry but I'll take the Mustang styling guys over the Camaro guys any day of the week. Over the years,Mustangs have outsold Camaro by at least a 2-1 margin,maybe more. Hard to argue with that and I'm a GM man.

[clinthart]

Sorry but I'll take the Mustang styling guys over the Camaro guys any day of the week. Over the years,Mustangs have outsold Camaro by at least a 2-1 margin,maybe more. Hard to argue with that and I'm a GM man.

Yeah... you wish.

[clinthart]

You spend your money on that one bud. I will keep it for my other 69 camaro vert build, or the mustang.

You bet I will. :cheers:

[Bob Johnson]

Bill Gates just sunk close to half a billion into berkshire hathaway, a company that has historically avoided technology like the plague and yet is incredibly successful.

Yeah microsoft would have been nice, but it's not a "tech stock" like i was referring to. Theres nothing wrong with investing in technology stocks as long as the company behind it is well-run and profitable. Microsoft has created a product that keeps getting bought-windows and its associated programs, like office. They have created a market for their own product by perpetually creating better versions of their own stuff so that people have to continue buying.

The tech stocks i was referring to were the stuff that popped up in 1999 that had no business model and no real market. They rode the fad. Kinda like how retro is a fad. Riding the fad is a bad way to make money, unless you can create another fad when your fad runs out. Look at where all the internet solutions companies that cropped up everywhere are now.

In the same manner, unless Ford can create another fad with the next Mustang, they are going to have one heck of a challenge on their hands in a few years.

This is not to say that I don't like the mustang- I do, a lot. Enough that I may even buy one some day. I just think that GM is making a much more intelligent decision with their design direction than Ford and Chrysler are.

By the way, who says I don't own microsoft? And even if I don't, I didn't lose a dime of money not investing in it. In fact, I just didn't buy ten stocks, but I have the same amount of money I had before I didn't buy them. The only time I lose money in the market is when I either make a bad investment or I make a good investment and give up too soon on it.

p.s. just cause you haven't heard about a stock through forbes doesn't mean its not a good buy. That faucet company has risen close to two hundred thousand percent since their IPO.
share this faucet companies name with us. When was the IPO and how much per share..I thought the idea of investing was not to lose, but to make money. BTW I'm the worst investor you ever saw..don't worry I won't buy your faucet company's stock because it would go down the tubes..someone would invent a better mousetrap..I'm snake bit on stocks..I think Ford is very pleased with the Mustang's results..you can't please everyone Hope you're right on the Camaro..GM needs it bad..but don't buy their stock..or Ford's either..

[formula]

share this faucet companies name with us. When was the IPO and how much per share..I thought the idea of investing was not to lose, but to make money. BTW I'm the worst investor you ever saw..don't worry I won't buy your faucet company's stock because it would go down the tubes..someone would invent a better mousetrap..I'm snake bit on stocks..I think Ford is very pleased with the Mustang's results..you can't please everyone Hope you're right on the Camaro..GM needs it bad..but don't buy their stock..or Ford's either..

Gm and ford are historically cyclical stocks. I'm not saying buy them either because I haven't researched either company, but the chance of a government bailout and a turnaround for either company is huge.

I don't own the faucet company stock because it came out like 60 years ago. Nobody's going to build a better faucet that hasn't already. They were founded in 1929 as Masco screw products, and are now known as Masco Corporation. They are a fortune 500 company, by the way. They've been profitable for over 50 years straight.

All I was trying to say is that it's much smarter in the long run to make something marketable for more than one product development cycle. It's one thing to make something incredibly popular, and I'm not saying that that's not an accomplishment, but it's quite another to keep it popular for, say, ten years. I wish every day that I could invent the next pet rock. Unfortunately, pet rocks make for a terrible business model.

[Bob Johnson]

Gm and ford are historically cyclical stocks. I'm not saying buy them either because I haven't researched either company, but the chance of a government bailout and a turnaround for either company is huge.

I don't own the faucet company stock because it came out like 60 years ago. Nobody's going to build a better faucet that hasn't already. They were founded in 1929 as Masco screw products, and are now known as Masco Corporation. They are a fortune 500 company, by the way. They've been profitable for over 50 years straight.

All I was trying to say is that it's much smarter in the long run to make something marketable for more than one product development cycle. It's one thing to make something incredibly popular, and I'm not saying that that's not an accomplishment, but it's quite another to keep it popular for, say, ten years. I wish every day that I could invent the next pet rock. Unfortunately, pet rocks make for a terrible business model.
i predict someone will make a better faucet..and a mousetrap to boot..if you're trying to look at the stock market from a logical point of view..good luck... it is manipulated by numerous people and things that have no logic..just profit and greed..at the expense of the common investor..one thing you should always remember....pigs get fat..hogs get slaughtered..take your profit and run..don't hang in there waiting to get all the profit out of something..never worry about selling anything before it makes it's full run..you can't go broke making a profit..even if it's not all you could have made..don't look back and dream if I would have just hung on longer..

[steemin]

Over the years,Mustangs have outsold Camaro by at least a 2-1 margin,maybe more. Hard to argue with that and I'm a GM man.

Clinthart,
Not trying to come across as argumentative :)
Like it or not this is indeed a fact..
I also like many GM cars.. Especially 1st gen Camaro's
Scott

[RSX302]

I do like it, but the front end doesn't look anything like the 69 Camaro IMO. In the video clip http://fastlane.gmblogs.com/ he said that they didn't want to copy the 69 Camaro too much like their competitor did. I think that was a mistake. I like the Mustang look and the challenger looks killer. I think the renderings Kris Horton did should of been more of the look. GM's front end version looks like a mad guy with a unibrow.

[LilJuicedCoupe]

From a Mustang guy:
Thank goodness Ford went in the direction that they did.
They cannot make the 05 and 06 Mustangs fast enough.
This success story will keep the original (and the only one left)
Pony car going for several more years!
Scott Until I read the numbers I've listed below I figured the new car production must be blowing away the numbers from recent past years. Here's what I recently read.

Info taken from "Muscle Mustangs and Fast Fords" Aug. '05:

Production of 2005 models was expected to reach 192,000 units. 2004 saw production about 110,000 units. A great increase but a far cry from the 370,000 units sold the first year of the infamous "Fox body" production 1979. And only marginally better than the first full year of SN-95 ('94-'04) sales which was '95 at about 186,000 units. The article also stated that as recently as production year 2000 that Ford sold over 215,000 Mustangs.


I recall reading an article that I think was in "GM High Tech" comparing late model Mustang vs. Camaro production numbers with Mustang production always around 200,000. I'll look for it later. So it seems to me current production is really only in line with what it usually has been. No more...not much less. Just a thought.

Steve