Carnage. (was "What can I swap in?")

[derekf]

I broke my engine today. It's never even left the garage.

Trying to figure out why it's idling at 2500 rpm (assuming a bad vacuum leak), over a period of about ten seconds it went from 2500 rpm to running real rough and shaking the car to a bang sound and all the oil falling out of the bottom.

I'm expecting that something physically broke (hence the bang) and that I'll need to swap motors but closed up shop and went in after putting a pan to catch the oil.

The car has the complete wiring harness - and computer - from a 2000 TA. What can I replace this LS1 with? I know the easy ones - the iron truck 5.3s and 6.0s, and of course other LS1/LS6s... but what about the others/newer LSs, will any work with the TA's computer? I've got EFILive so can adjust settings if needed.

Where's a good bang-for-the-buck?

[csouth]

LS1 is going to be a Gen3 24x crank reluctor motor and the newer Gen 4 motors are 58x. Also the cam sensor on this is in the valley cover where the new motors is on the timing cover. Just what I can think of offhand.

[NorCal-SS]

Knock sensors are also different between gen 3 and 4. I would think most any gen 3 short block would be an easy swap in this case.

One thing I’d be curious of though is what caused an idling engine to grenade? If something is off with the ECU tune (maybe timing is way off…?) it could cause the same issue with the next engine.

[dhutton]

I would try to find another LS1 and maybe drop in an LS6 cam to keep things simple. I agree, need to understand the cause of the failure. Who did the tune?

Don

[79 Camaro]

Sorry about your engine problems.
My .02 either get a 24 tooth reluctor 6.0 from the salvage yard and build it or buy a rebuilt 6.0 short block reusing reusing all your LS1 parts.
Depending what happen inside your current engine reuse the cam but with 6.0 you could but in a bit bigger cam.
Or if you want to replace your intake and injectors maybe LS3 heads?

[derekf]

I agree, need to understand the cause of the failure. Who did the tune?

There wasn't really a tune on it - I'd flashed a stock GM tune (specifically, the "2000 Chevrolet Camaro Coupe Manual LS1 5.7 Litre (PCM 09381344)" I found on the net) to the PCM as what was in it was just wrong (previous owner swore it wasn't sprayed or blown but I found a nitrous nozzle stuck in the serpentine belt when I tore it down and I think the injector numbers were set up for that). I'd had the block machined and new pistons/rings/bearings and the like so wasn't too worried about What Had Come Before.

Don't know cause of the failure yet - need to pull the engine out to do a proper post-mortem - but whatever came apart did it hard enough to break the cast oil pan:

201107



My .02 either get a 24 tooth reluctor 6.0 from the salvage yard

Yeah, looks like that may be the correct route. There's a 6.0 from a 2006 Escalade at my local yard that looks to be calling my name.



Depending what happen inside your current engine reuse the cam but with 6.0 you could but in a bit bigger cam.

Current cam is a Thunder Racing TR224 - hopefully it survived? If not then yeah - something a little larger.



Or if you want to replace your intake and injectors maybe LS3 heads?

Oh, now you've got my attention. Not that I've got the kind of liquid-cooled wallet that allows for fancy stuff.

[79 Camaro]

I love to spend other peoples money!
Keep in mind that if you go the LS3/L92 head route your current intake, injectors, throttle body along with your 243? heads are still very popular for resale.
Good luck with your engine project.

[Larry Callahan]

Oh no!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!

So sorry to hear. Wow! That sucks!!!!

[derekf]

If'n you're of a mind to play a fun game of Root Cause Analysis - I pulled the heads and found this today in the #5 cylinder:

201129

The cylinder wall is definitely ruined. The connecting rod is not attached to the crank anymore, but the crank surface seems undamaged from what I can see/feel from here. I expect that I'll be able to completely pull the engine this weekend and will be able to get a better idea of what's in there.

I'd just put the flourescent dye in a couple of days before this so when I checked the heads and found the dye evenly distributed I felt pretty good about the oiling system working. The other cylinders are okay, except I found a lot of aluminum shavings on top of the #8 piston, but no visible damage in there to explain them.

Oh - and the head is ruined too, bits of piston appear to have bounced off it a few times.

[NorCal-SS]

Wow man that’s some carnage all right. What’s the history on the engine? Was this a fresh rebuild. Swap in as-is?

[derekf]

Fresh rebuild, though it might be telling that the machine shop closed up business not long after finishing the block work. Heads were used.

Possibly relevant that the engine had been sitting for a decade between the build and the first fire - but I did pull the heads off and verify that the bores weren't rusty.

[ryeguy2006a]

Very sorry to hear about your engine... If you have access to an LQ9 from the Escalade, I'd pick that up along with a set of 799/243 heads and just run it.

[derekf]

My LQ9 gets delivered tomorrow evening, and the box of parts from the big-box store trickles in Wednesday and Thursday.

Today I was able to pull the engine and get it on the stand to look at the damages.

The pan looks better than it is:

201199

It's still cracked in about eight places so needs replaced.

When I was getting ready to create my parts order a thought struck me that the windage tray was probably ruined.

Oh yeah.

201200
201201

And here's what was presented once I took the tray off:
201202

Bearings look okay, if you ignore that they're flat and not attached to anything:
201203
201204

Wrist pin looks good:
201205

Rod is slightly bent (no picture).

Crank is likely not salvageable:
201206

One of the rod bolts bent and broke, and the other is loose - not sure if that indicates that the one came loose and the other bent, or if something broke and the everything stems from that:
201208
201207

The sleeve is also ruined, I assume by broken rod bits flying around in there.
201209

The head is also ruined, I expect (ignore the splashes of coolant on the top cylinder, that's just from where the head was when the radiator came out) -
201210

The cam has a couple of nicks on the very edge of a couple of lobes. My assumption is that I can take a fine file to those since that's not where the rollers will ride.

So - any guesses as to root cause here (was this my fault)?

[DualQuadDave]

Post some pics of the cam, hard to tell without seeing. Do NOT reuse the lifters, expect those to have a ton of debris in them. The LQ9 is bigger/better, if that makes you feel better. My $$$ is on the shop not tightening the rod bolts correctly. Even if the crank looks good, don't use it. It's probably bent, but if the journals are ok, have it checked to verify if not too expensive. A spare crank is not a bad thing. Be sure to look at the cam bearings of the LQ9 real good before you send it. Slap a 10295 pump with the COPO spring in it and will give you a valve spring/head gasket recommendation depending on the rest of the combo. FYI, you are better off selling that TR224 cam, it's not great. Get a BTR stage 2 or some of the Summit cams(Comp) are excellent for the $$$. If you need a Camaro pan/tray, I might have one to sell.

[derekf]

Good call on the lifters.

The LQ9 is a complete pullout - so reusing lifters or crank is not necessarily needed. Journals on the old crank are definitely gouged. The Holley swap pan and a windage tray is part of the parts order so I'm definitely good there.

I've got a set of the Comp Cams 918 springs new in a box on a shelf that can go in. I assume they're not the hot stuff these days either - they've been on that shelf for better than a decade.

How bad is the TR224? I can't find the cam card and my notes on what it is don't line up with what Archive.org shows from the TR site (my notes say it's 224/224 on a 116 LSA but it doesn't look like they made one on 116)

[DualQuadDave]

Ebay the cam, it's better $$$ to sell that and recoup some and buy better. It's not cheap playing w/ LS's, may as well do it right the first time. Give me specs on the car/drivetrain/power/driving style and I can ballpark a cam for you. The OLD Comp springs are way BETTER than the new ones. Comp anything short of the cams themselves has totally gone to ****. Either way, same difference, build it once. Might sell the springs too, don't let that limit you. Give me more info and can narrow down the focus more.

[derekf]

Give me specs on the car/drivetrain/power/driving style and I can ballpark a cam for you.

69 El Camino, this LQ9 with a T56, 4.10 gears.

LS6 intake, whatever cam, headers - not too much else fancy for power. Let's label the driving style as "aggressive street".

[DualQuadDave]

For that combo and driving style(like me, lol) I would go with a Summit SUM-8710R1. A BTR Stage 2 Cathedral is touch smaller, little better drive-ability and still great power, but the Summit cam is a real good all around grind. They both love compression, I would get a set of 243/799's and go with a .040 gasket to pump it up some. .660 spring kit will be fine for either. If you are going to keep the 317 heads, have them cut .020 and go with the .040 gasket to get as much compression as you can. I would advance the cam 2 degrees, also, if you keep the 317 heads.

Also, spend the $$$ and put an alum flywheel on it. Best $$$ you'll spend. Lightweight clutch is worth it too, but they get expensive real quick.

[derekf]

I put a leakdown tester on the engine today and it definitely needs a valve job. Oil pan was dirty but not sparkly, plugs weren't fouled but looked to have been in there a while.

I do have a set of 853 heads (google says 68cc chamber as opposed to the 72cc 317s). Would it be better to clean up the 853s and valve job them instead of having the 317s milled?

[DualQuadDave]

Don't spend a dollar on the 853's. Get the $100-200 for them on offerup and let them go. Buy any set of 243/799's and build from there. Yes it's more $$, but the heads make the motor. Honestly, since you need to buy heads, maybe to go LS3 square port and cut the bull****. Just thinking out loud. i am going LS3 on all my 6.0+ builds. The entire aftermarket is pivoting toward this. Have a lot of personal, inside info on this. Lots of behind the scenes stuff happening in our hobby that is not good for us. If you can consolidate now, better $$$ going forward.

[ryeguy2006a]

The 243/799 heads actually have the same port designs, just the combustion chamber is larger on the 317 heads. Really depends on what you want to do. A cammed LQ9 with LS6 intake will make some good numbers even with the 317 heads. I think that the head swap to 243 wouldn't be worth more than 20-25 hp. If he went to the LS3 heads maybe would be worth 35-40 more. Personally if you just wanted to get the car up and running, I'd just lap the valves yourself swap the springs and put it all back together with MLS gaskets and the new cam. Otherwise the LS3 top end kit will delay things quite a bit waiting for parts.

[slazisme]

I vote for a 6.0L iron block (I didn't want to worry about sleeving) with LS3 heads and intake, that's what I built and have no regrets, 507hp & 475 ft/lbs torque. You can get LSA heads new for around 665.00 from all the usual places, depending on your cam selection springs might need to be changed.
I bought a junkyard engine stripped off and sold off what I didn't need including the 317 heads and went from there. I did upgrade rockers, 4032 pistons, rods with ARP bolts, pan etc..
Here's an article to ponder:
https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/hrdp-0909-gm-ls-engine-cam-test/

https://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/ptd/d/dallas-gmc-yukon-denali-xl-60l-parting/7513553958.html

[streetk14]

Anyone else wondering why it was idling so high before it blew? Doesn’t seem like the rod bolts not being torqued would cause that.

[NorCal-SS]

Yep (see post3). I understand a data log at this point is likely not available. But if it were me, I’d have the tune looked over by a knowledgable eye before running it again, just in case. Symptoms seem like an extremely lean condition. OP also mentioned possible nitrous usage prior to owning the engine, so who knows what is flashed on the ECU

[derekf]

My assumption is a severe vacuum leak - so my parts purchases included new injector seals and intake gaskets. The engine did literally sit for a decade and a half between assembly and first fire so I suppose I should count myself lucky that I didn't have other leaks. At least as far as "lucky" goes at this point.

The tune was literally the stock GM tune - not that I could tell you where I found the "2000 Chevrolet Camaro Coupe Manual LS1 5.7 Litre (PCM 09381344).tun" file; using EFILive to do a diff between what was on the PCM as purchased and this had only any real differences in the VE table - and there only under 1200 rpm - and in the VE-while-cranking table.

[streetk14]

Doesn’t seem likely the tune was to blame if it was a confirmed stock file for an LS1 F-body. The high idle is a head scratcher, and a vacuum leak would make some sense. Seems like it would need to be a massive leak to do that, but I guess anything is possible.

I was thinking it could have been super lean from something like low fuel pressure, but that doesn’t explain the high idle. What about cylinder 5 becoming hydro-locked from a stuck injector? Either way, you’ll definitely want to be careful. It would probably be a smart move to smoke test the intake system before you try to fire up the new engine.

[derekf]

I found photographic evidence of my vacuum leak:

201578

I also found bits of piston in the intake. Glad I took the time to look around it.

New engine is mostly together and will be starting it probably late this week, thanks for all the advice.

[NorCal-SS]

That’s great detective work! That would certainly set my mind at ease moving forward.