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Steve Chryssos
01-06-2006, 09:17 PM
https://www.pro-touring.com/featured_cars/Camaro/1968_Camaro/steve_chryssos_68_camaro/wreck.jpg
It breaks my heart to read some of the threads in this section. You know..The ones where someone asks about adding safety equipment but complains about inconvenience or appearance. Stock or unsupportive seats? Removable harness bars? Go look at the difference between the number of suspension parts threads and the number of brake system threads. Whats up, Bob?

This is pro-touring.com. Reality check: We're all building 3000lb to 3500lb missiles. Top Speed Potential: 140mph? 160mph? More? Got Turbos? Maybe I've gone overboard with my car, but it sure seems like safety is an afterthought on most pro-touring cars. When I see a bad-ass 150mph fat tired P-T car with stock seats, stock belts and no roll bar, I walk away shaking my head. How about racing harnesses that aren't mounted to anything--but look cool. Ian Zerling's Camaro has racing harneses that are mounted (sewn) to the seat upholstery. :hand:

The picture above is the result of a collision at just 65mph where my car contacted the rear driver's side corner of a Nissan Pathfinder. No, the damage is NOT from a tree. It's from the tail end of the Pathfinder's left frame rail. See the top of the passenger fender? The Pathfinder's bumper ended up on top of us. The idiot decided that he was going to make a U-TURN in the middle of a busy four lane highway (divided by a grass median). Result? The 1968 lap belts held, but the Mrs.' torso hinged forward and broke her L5 Vertebra. Her throat impacted the dashboard and started to close up from swelling. She was suffocating. The EMT's had to intubate her. Me? I tore the rim clear off the spokes of my then Grant GT steering wheel. Bruised sternum and nose (I'm fairly indestructable). We were both hauled away in matching his & hers ambulances. The car? Totaled. Back in the day (July 5, 1999) I had it insured for a whopping $11K. I bought it back for $1K. I dragged it home while the wife was at work. That way I could pull the windshield (which still had her hair in it), the dashboard (which was dented from her throat and my nose) and strip the trashed nose off the car so that it wouldn't look "too bad" when she got home.

Each of us will make our own decisions anyway. I'm sorry for getting all "preachy" on yer asses. But picture yourself "pushing" head-on into a guardrail or leaving the road and sliding sideways through grass into a tree. Or maybe, just maybe god will drop a Pathfinder out of the sky.

Instead of asking how to add safety equipment without it "getting in the way", ask how to properly add safety equipment. There are quite a few of us who know the only two ways to properly choose and mount equipment (and there ARE only two ways: Street or Competition) If you're just not willing to let it get in your way or cause you installation challenges, then don't build a fast car. :poke:

>>>>gets off soapbox and stomps out of the clubhouse

TonyL
01-06-2006, 10:08 PM
Preach it brother.

Steve speaks the truth. Our cars are about incorporating new technology in older cars. Saftey should be just as important as anything else we do.

David Pozzi
01-06-2006, 10:30 PM
Right on Steve!
These old cars really need a safety upgrade.

sinned
01-06-2006, 10:36 PM
It's OK Steve, most of the suspension and brake threads have gone the same way (instead of what works, it's what looks cool).



I completely agree, if you are willing to put 500+RWHP in that chassis you better be willing to live with roll cages, difficult to climb in seats, and at least 4-way harnesses.

MrQuick
01-06-2006, 10:54 PM
Man I still get chills from that pictures like the first time I saw it.

Agreed with topic. I had a kid come in wanting a roll cage put in for a street driven car. He wanted a cage that looked real but was not. Thin wall tubing. I told him it would cost $15,000 and he was crazy for even thinking it. Looking over his car he had home made seat brackets made out of 3/16" AL...gun drilled to boot. Front and rear glass bumpers with the same 3/16" AL used for bracketry and yes gun drilled. I ripped him a new one and sent him down the street.
Imagine what is out there that we don't see. Its like everything eles...education.

vanzuuk1
01-07-2006, 05:16 AM
Steve No one really complained about anything, I said that a kirkey style nascar seat is the the safest setup but a pain to get out of. I also specifically said your setup was well done and not too bad too get in and ot of, thats not complaining is it?

I actually plan to ditch the summit seats after I do my cage , I just think they are geared a little towards the the streetcar side of things.

I told the story of the guy getting ripped out of his stock seats and killed because I know people forget how important this stuff is.

If you thought guys were complaining about the inconvenience of safety in that thread, then I didnt explain myself clearly.

I have seen a local car with corbeau belts, lap belts attached and shoulder belts dangling , the owner is a nice guy but I cant believe he thinks that is cool.

Steve Chryssos
01-07-2006, 05:27 AM
Steve No one really complained about anything, I said that a kirkey style nascar seat is the the safest setup but a pain to get out of. .....

Dirk,
This isn't about one thread in particular, but rather an obvious tone that emerges if you read numerous threads in a row. And I'm not trying to say that everyone needs a cage, either. I just want folks to check style at the door when they start a safety thread. Ask "Whats the right way to do this, that, or the other thing?"

vanzuuk1
01-07-2006, 05:30 AM
On a related note, over the holidays someone at a party started with the old thing about how much safer the "old steel cars" were than the "new plastic cars", I almost had a heart attack. He actually listened when I tried to explain how much auto safety has progressed, when I told him I had an old camaro he knew I wasnt biased towards the new stuff.

vanzuuk1
01-07-2006, 05:48 AM
Steve I cant believe we are both staring at our macs this morning,we should be jogging or something!

I totally agree with you about doing it the right way if you are going to do it, if you are going to add safety equipment do it correctly. I am still planning my cage and I havent done my four points because I didnt want to compromise and attach them to the rear shelf.

I know the setup you have (and I will have) is not right for everybody but I wish guys who put in race seats , belts and cages would put more thought into the science involved. I must have asked you and dave pozzi a hundred questions already about this topic and I ask a lot more before I am done.

Steevo when we take our bikes out this summer prepare to be teased for wearing a brain bucket instead of a full face. :razz:

Steve Chryssos
01-07-2006, 06:13 AM
Steevo when we take our bikes out this summer prepare to be teased for wearing a brain bucket instead of a full face. :razz:

I eat the bugs.

jeffandre
01-07-2006, 06:20 AM
I agree that safety with our vehicles is generally way off, unless we spend time researching realistic safety improvements (cages/bars, seats, belts/harnesses, brakes, etc.) and money installing the improved parts properly. I have seen accidents involving speeds under 50 mph that would change nearly everyone's opinion of the need to ratchet up our vehicles' safety performance. Since my car will likely see a few tracks ayear, I will design everything from a total safety perspective. I will have a quality fire suppression system; a full cage; harnesses for safety, not comfort; safe steering wheel system; well-balanced brakes that work extremely well; and I will also take a few driver's training courses at ThunderHill.

Safety cannot be compromised, our families depend on us, and if we can come up with the money for the wheel/tire packages, brakes, and drivetrain and suspension mods we seem to 'need', then safety improvements MUST be factored into the deal. Some of the safety 'transgressions' you pointed out show how pathetic some people are, they must be thinking that they are invincible or something. Life is short enough as it is, why push to shorten it even more? Of course having an unsafe car may not kill a person, maybe they will get lucky and just be severely handicapped instead...

vanzuuk1
01-07-2006, 06:48 AM
When I was younger we would take a beater car on its way to the junkyard and do really stupid things with it, it usually involved flying throught the woods and ended when the car would no longer move under its own power.

The reason I bring this up is, every once in a while i would tell one of my buddies I wanted to show them something, we would run into a tree at a steady five to ten miles per hour, no braking. They were always amazed at how violent an impact it created at such low speed.

For guys stupid enough to drive into trees it was very educational

Rick Dorion
01-07-2006, 07:07 AM
Good reminder. I sincerely hope it's a joke about Steve's helmet. Safety applies to all types. I lived through a horrendous bike crash thanks in large part to a good fullface helmet.

I get kidded occasionally about my 8-pt in my vert but tell anyone who will listen that the stock car is a death trap.

Steve Chryssos
01-07-2006, 08:00 AM
Good reminder. I sincerely hope it's a joke about Steve's helmet. Safety applies to all types. I lived through a horrendous bike crash thanks in large part to a good fullface helmet.....

No he's not kidding. I own and use both a full face and a beanie. Call me duplicitous, but the motorcycle debate begins with a philosophical debate: "Should they be ridden at all" or "Should they only be ridden on a track". Motorcycles are inherently deadly. No doors. No belts. Not much for a seat. As on any motorcycle forum, we can go on and on about the motorcycle safety debate until we are blue in the face. My .02 on motorcycle safety is brief and two fold: 1) The only safe motorcycle is one that's parked. 2) Don't ride until you have been to riding school. That's it. Learn how to ride and make peace with the deathwish or don't ride at all.

Bringing motorcycles into this thread will only dilute its purpose.

parsonsj
01-07-2006, 08:21 AM
Let's do leave the motorcycles out of it. That's a whole other discussion.

I'm making certain (via full rollcage, 4 pt harness, suitable seats) my ride is safe for insane speeds, but I worry about that same cage in ordinary street driving. I don't think driving around with a helmet is very cool (literally), but I'm concerned about the state of my noggin (and any passengers) if it rattles off those cage bars in an "ordinary" accident.

There's no good answer for this ... I just worry about it.

jp

vanzuuk1
01-07-2006, 08:44 AM
John O.K. , put bikes aside, I am with you on the cage issue.Of course you dont know what type of crash to anticipate, how many prostreet guys got rearended at a light and got "rollbared" in the back of the skull.No two accidents are alike so what saves one person could kill another.
Again, I am not saying I am an expert but I have looked at a lot of wrecked cars out of curiousity.

David Pozzi
01-07-2006, 10:59 AM
Let's do leave the motorcycles out of it. That's a whole other discussion.

I'm making certain (via full rollcage, 4 pt harness, suitable seats) my ride is safe for insane speeds, but I worry about that same cage in ordinary street driving. I don't think driving around with a helmet is very cool (literally), but I'm concerned about the state of my noggin (and any passengers) if it rattles off those cage bars in an "ordinary" accident.

There's no good answer for this ... I just worry about it.

jp

jp,
For that reason, I'm only doing a roll bar on my 67 Camaro. I'm concerned about getting hit on the street and my head contacting a cage bar on the left side of my head. Camaros are pretty tight in that area, when I autocrossed the car, my helmet would sometimes hit the trim strip above the door.

Rick Dorion
01-07-2006, 02:40 PM
Let's do leave the motorcycles out of it. That's a whole other discussion.

I'm making certain (via full rollcage, 4 pt harness, suitable seats) my ride is safe for insane speeds, but I worry about that same cage in ordinary street driving. I don't think driving around with a helmet is very cool (literally), but I'm concerned about the state of my noggin (and any passengers) if it rattles off those cage bars in an "ordinary" accident.

There's no good answer for this ... I just worry about it.

jp

Agreed. Even though I cinch my 4-pt belts down very tight, my concern is the forces in an accident could create contact between my head and bar/padding. However, I opted for an 8-pt since the vert is even more crushable.

Damn True
01-07-2006, 03:05 PM
I' smellin what your cookin Steve. Haven't brought it up much because the "does it look cool" crowd tends to get their shorts in a bunch when anything like criticism (constructive or otherwise) is brought up. So I've taken a "live and let live/or die" approach figuring that we are all adults and ultimately responsible for ourselves. But in retrospect that is not the right thing to do if I am to call myself someone who gives a $^it about people and the future of this avocation. Which I do.

So henceforth I will mention safety when and where appropriate.

My car will have a full cage with door bars and all, padded in places where I might contact them in a street accident. I will have the best seats I can afford and three-points for the street and five-points for the track that will be properly installed and worn at all times.

Steve Chryssos
01-07-2006, 03:36 PM
.......I'm making certain (via full rollcage, 4 pt harness, suitable seats) my ride is safe for insane speeds, but I worry about that same cage in ordinary street driving. I don't think driving around with a helmet is very cool (literally), but I'm concerned about the state of my noggin (and any passengers) if it rattles off those cage bars in an "ordinary" accident. There's no good answer for this ... I just worry about it.
jp

JP,
I'd have to say that both of our halo/A-pillar bars could have been fabbed better. But okay, let's use our experiences to help educate others. The info will talk some people out of roll cages altogether while prompting other to be fanatical about bar placement. It may not save the day, but we both need to employ some high density SFI 45.1 padding in these areas. As an added benefit, the dense stuff is more compact.

But anyway, full roll cages are a tiny minority. It's probably better to start a discussion about seats and belts. Then move on to roll bars and finally roll cages.

There are some very basic do's and don'ts. Here's one example:

DON'T use racing harnesses unless you have at least a roll bar with a rigid cross bar behind the seats. The rigid cross bar is the only way to properly mount shoulder harnesses. The bar must be at shoulder blade height. You can't run the shoulder harness to the floor behind the front seats. You can't mount them in the rear seat area. With either floor mount, the belts are too long. Belts have a certain amount of stretch per inch. The longer the belt, the more they will stretch. So floor mounted shoulder harnesses are too long. If you are not in a position to mount the shoulder harness exactly like the following picture, DON'T use racing harnesses. No exceptions. That's from Bill Simpson's arrogant mouth to my ears.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Steve Chryssos
01-07-2006, 03:40 PM
I' smellin what your cookin Steve. Haven't brought it up much because the "does it look cool" crowd tends to get their shorts in a bunch when anything like criticism (constructive or otherwise) is brought up. So I've taken a "live and let live/or die" approach figuring that we are all adults and ultimately responsible for ourselves. But in retrospect that is not the right thing to do if I am to call myself someone who gives a $^it about people and the future of this avocation. Which I do.

That's where I'm at. I stopped frequenting the Safety topic for just this reason. So I fugured the only way to break the chain is to start with a reality check. The sign on the front of this room should say WARNING: Leave your vanity at the door or don't come in. This topic among all others is not about what looks cool or what is convenient to install

Damn True
01-07-2006, 03:49 PM
Started a seat thread a couple days ago.

Steve Chryssos
01-07-2006, 04:17 PM
Started a seat thread a couple days ago.
Seen it. As mentioned, there was no single thread prompted this.

Damn True
01-07-2006, 04:42 PM
I know, just letting you know so we didn't have redundant discussions in different threads.

Norwoodx55
01-07-2006, 04:49 PM
Thanks Steve for starting this thread. I have to admit that safety has not really been a huge concern of mine, even though I have been involved in a fairly serious accident. The accident was in a modern vehicle with airbags... have to give props to the bags. I think I have been kidding myself about the likelyhood of getting into an accident in the Camaro. Even though it is a weekend/pleasure vehicle, you just never know when your number is coming up. I am really going to take steps to improve the safety of my car. Possibly the best slap in the face I ever had. :slap:
Thanks again, Brett

USAZR1
01-07-2006, 04:59 PM
Steve,when we take our bikes out this summer prepare to be teased for wearing a brain bucket instead of a full face.
Why don't you wear full-face helmets?

vanzuuk1
01-07-2006, 06:25 PM
I always wear a full face, even on a mountain bike.

DarkBuddha
01-08-2006, 09:25 AM
Hey, maybe I'm crazy, but I think real safety does look cool! Sure, race seats, harnesses, fire suppression systems, roll bars, huge drilled/slotted discs, etc. always looks cool. But I even think a good set of seats with head rests (or highbacks), 3 point belts, a conveniently mounted fire extinguisher, and other simple safety stuff looks cool, as long as it's functional. I've been building my car as a street driven daily driver, so a full cage and Kirkley seats don't make sense for me. But new 3 point retractable belts, late model OEM highback seats (with reinforced mounting holes), a rear firewall, a fire extinguisher, OEM Ford 4 wheel discs, and several other upgrades work well and will make me feel safer driving around (esepcially with my son in his car seat in the back).

I guess I'm like the rest of ya'll who are tired of seeing posers with more money than sense (cents?) making poor choices for the sake of image. I'm a function-meets-form kinda guy. That's the way I've tried to build my car and it's what I look for and admire in others' rides.

Steve1968LS2
01-08-2006, 10:03 AM
I plan on doing a large story on safety in the next few months. Everything from seats to harnesses to fire supression.

If I had a dollar for every poorly built "street" roll cage I've seen.. I can just picture their head smashing against the halo.. :(

Steve1968LS2
01-08-2006, 10:08 AM
jp,
For that reason, I'm only doing a roll bar on my 67 Camaro. I'm concerned about getting hit on the street and my head contacting a cage bar on the left side of my head. Camaros are pretty tight in that area, when I autocrossed the car, my helmet would sometimes hit the trim strip above the door.

That is why I am leaving my car with no backseat.. it would be foolish to put ANYONE in a back seat when you have almost any design of roll bar or cage.

Very good topic

Jim Nilsen
01-08-2006, 12:14 PM
I thought I would post this link again so more would know that better rollbar padding is available.

http://www.rollbarpadding.com/

Since the everyday padding sold for years is considered useless and I still haven't bought mine yet but am getting close, maybe now would be a great time to make a group purchase on rollbar padding.

On another note about saftey I have been installing my battery cables and have a kill switch mounted on the rear panel as required in a lot of racing sanctions, it is an extra 7 ft. of cable to do it and it will be setup to kill the alternator also. I keep telling myself that adding another switch on the inside of the car so I can kill the power from the driver seat is a good idea but the routing of that 2/0 cable is heavy and the likelyhood of having the time to hit it in the event of an accident will be slim. So how many here have a kill switch they can reach to shut it all down inside the cabin? Part of me tells me to install one inside and part of me tells me that I can use the ignition if I am aware of the problem and have the time to do something either way. I also think if I had the time and choice I would rather hit a fire extinguisher release instead.

Where a person draw the line on saftey and need for saftey equipment is is as bad as getting people to wear saftey glasses at work. You keep telling yourself you should never need it, but it just isn't true. You always need it before you need it.

The nice thing about my battery kill switch is that it is a newer push style from Flaming River and if I get hit in the rear it will more than likely kill the power upon impact. Whether it will stop the wires from getting cut into and still causing a short and some sparks,who knows. But it is one more little thing that might help.

Most of all saftey begins with the driver and making safe decisions will keep you out of trouble long before saftey equipment will need to save you.

I could go on and on and back Steevo up all day long. There are sections that saftey can be divided into and putting a priority on them might help along with revealing the cost of doing them. Some saftey features can be just simply doing an installation in a different way as has been stated many times and cost has nothing to do with it.

I also want to thankyou Steevo for introducing me to the Racepumps fuel pump. I no longer have to worry of having my electric fuel pump spewing fuel all over the place in case of an accident. It is truly a saftey device all in its own with fuel injected cars yet isn't probably considered a saftey device to some an really doesn't cost any more than a good electric fuel pump setup.

Jim Nilsen

jeffandre
01-08-2006, 12:15 PM
I think rear seats and cages can work if the rear seats have harnesses that do not allow the passengers to come into contact with the tubing (which I admit can be difficult to design out of the way in most of our cars). If I ever get into a big enough accident with a passenger and their harness fails to the point that they contact the cage, or the car crushes inward causing a tube to contact a passenger, I figure they would have been in pretty bad shape anyway even without a cage. I realize that there are probably many examples of rear seat passengers being hurt by roll cages, but I bet most if not all of these injuries did not include harnesses worn as designed.

Excellent points made, each of us needs to really think about those that may be riding in the back seats, as their safety is no less important than ours. I will have to rethink my cage and seating setup when the time comes to install the cage (late 2006).

Rick Dorion
01-08-2006, 12:59 PM
I plan on doing a large story on safety in the next few months. Everything from seats to harnesses to fire supression.

If I had a dollar for every poorly built "street" roll cage I've seen.. I can just picture their head smashing against the halo.. :(

Given the amount of information that could be presented, perhaps separate articles on those areas could explore in greater depth. A detailed article on installing a sound fire supression system would be of more value than it being one/several paragraphs in one large coverage.

zbugger
01-08-2006, 02:07 PM
Steve, how about a series on safety? Do it in order. Choose the right seats for you, then go with harnesses, then how to properly design a roll bar/cage. Next up could be proper fire suppression and power kill switches. In each article you can elude to what's coming up next. The more people that know, the better.

Now, the fact that I've decided to remove my rear seat isn't helping me as MrQuick is tyin to talk me into a mini tub and a three link, but it will help me with my idea for a cage. I want to design one for structural integrity, without being a "Full Race" cage. Similar to both what Steevo has in his streetfighter, and to what Tony Whatley put in his red 69. There's no saying that you can't make something that's functional look pretty too though. My car won't be driven every day anymore. I plan on having fun with it. Some parts may look "racecar", being the cage and seats and guages and stuff, but the detail in the finish won't be. Mainly because I'm anal about looks. Worse than that, I'm anal about proper safety. That means that I'm keeping the stock three point harness in the car for regular street driving, and having the 5 or 6 point harness for when I take the car to the track. There's legal issues there too though.

69Nova
01-08-2006, 02:37 PM
First thanks for starting this thread.

I have been wanting to install a cage in my car for months now, but I would be dumb for just walking in and having some circle track guy install one in my application. I for one would greatly appreciate if someone could do a series like Rick suggested.

Steve Chryssos
01-08-2006, 03:54 PM
How does one go about publishing articles on P-T.com or is it just done in the form of a post?

Steve1968LS2
01-08-2006, 04:07 PM
How does one go about publishing articles on P-T.com or is it just done in the form of a post?

Want to write one for PHR? :)

If so I could pitch the idea, it is certainly a topic that needs addressing.

I envisioned an overall introduction story about general safety then specific ones on roll cages, fire suppression and such.

Thoughts?

zbugger
01-08-2006, 04:22 PM
.....I envisioned an overall introduction story about general safety then specific ones on roll cages, fire suppression and such.

Thoughts?

Well, that would be good for a start. Most people don't know what it all entails though. Going through rule books and explaining that kind of thing would be good too.

Steevo, I think in the future you may be able to do an article on the site. Talk to Larry or Ralph about it.

Steve Chryssos
01-08-2006, 04:57 PM
Want to write one for PHR? :)

If so I could pitch the idea, it is certainly a topic that needs addressing.

I envisioned an overall introduction story about general safety then specific ones on roll cages, fire suppression and such.

Thoughts?

I'd rather help you compile and write it. May as well email me pix of your cage and I'll pick out the strengths and weakness of both our designs. But the site can't wait for the usual magazine lead time, so it will have to run here and in the magazine concurrently. Ask Mr. Wonderful if that's okay. Actually, I'll just talk to both you and Johnny at MPMC in two weeks. --And don't forget: Dan Nicholas (Jet) is bringing Poker chips and enough Jack Daniels to drown Dean Martin.

Allen,
Let's try to do better. Bug Larry and Ralph about the best way for me to submit pix and text. Deadline: January 16 (of this year)

parsonsj
01-08-2006, 06:53 PM
Cool. Let me know how I can help. I need to buy seats, foam, and harness. Rear seat and its harness can be covered too.

jp

Damn True
01-08-2006, 06:58 PM
I'd rather help you compile and write it. May as well email me pix of your cage and I'll pick out the strengths and weakness of both our designs. But the site can't wait for the usual magazine lead time, so it will have to run here and in the magazine concurrently. Ask Mr. Wonderful if that's okay. Actually, I'll just talk to both you and Johnny at MPMC in two weeks. --And don't forget: Dan Nicholas (Jet) is bringing Poker chips and enough Jack Daniels to drown Dean Martin.

Allen,
Let's try to do better. Bug Larry and Ralph about the best way for me to submit pix and text. Deadline: January 16 (of this year)



Sent you a PM on the topic. Tried to send it to Steve as well, but he needs to clean out his box.

(yikes, that dosen't sound good does it?)

zbugger
01-08-2006, 07:02 PM
(yikes, that dosen't sound good does it?)
You said it.

Ralph LoGrasso
01-08-2006, 07:03 PM
Steevo, check yer PMs.

Steve Chryssos
01-08-2006, 07:59 PM
Okay, Okay!! I'm back. I was in the bathroom!

JP.
Pix of cockpit placement--good and bad--would really help. That way we have something other than Camaros. Your rear seat belt assemblies in particular, would be very helpful to others.

TonyL
01-08-2006, 08:32 PM
Steve, how are those 6x9 boxes in your rear seat area bolted down? I've seen those rip free of screws and slam into the back of the seat, causing real damage to the driver, even death. Just one more thing to think about when talking about safety.

Steve Chryssos
01-08-2006, 08:38 PM
Yup. One of my projects this winter is to recess the speakers and cd changer into the shelf--not the vertical firewall, but the horizontal shelf. Right now they are super velcro'd. The thinking was to remove them at the track. One more DON'T to show. I'll be happy to show all my mistakes. No shame in sharing.

69Nova
01-08-2006, 08:45 PM
I have a quick question. How much do you think a properly installed cage could cost? I'm not saying you have to be exact but a good estimant would be helpful.

TonyL
01-08-2006, 08:46 PM
indeed.

case in point. Had a kid with a 80's CRX. (remember those?) he had the same boxes in the very rear of the car on the floor, he'd drilled holes through them and put bolts with 1/2 inch washers through them on both sides, and sandwiched the the fiberboard floor with the washers. He was in a 45 mph collison with a 91 seville. the speaker boxes ripped free, washers and all and flew up and hit him in the back of the head at 45 mph.

one of the worst things i've ever seen as a tow truck driver. Use the biggest washers you can, and bolt them to metal.

there was another young kid who was hit in the back through his seat and paralized from the waist down. Man, i dislike those evil speaker boxes.

next, come the people that think a few sheetrock screws holding new 5 lb 6x9s down in the package tray are ok. Folks those speakers weighed a few ounces new. Bolts and washers are needed there too.

you'd be shocked at the damage speakers can do.

slowcamaro
01-08-2006, 11:28 PM
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif


Have any better pics of the cage? Thats exactly like how i plan the cage in my thirdgen. Send me a PM or and email.

Thanks

Damn True
01-09-2006, 12:16 AM
I have a quick question. How much do you think a properly installed cage could cost? I'm not saying you have to be exact but a good estimant would be helpful.


Cost will vary depending on your area, the material used, and the level of complexity of the build. The biggest savings will be in how much or little disassembly/assembly the builder has to do. Bring him a car stripped of it's interior and you will save a ton of hours in labor.

TC Designs here in San Jose quoted me in the $2k range for a cage in my '68 that will pass NASA and SCCA tech. Plus or minus $500 or so for Cro-Mo, more or less complexity etc.

Again, prices in your area may be much different.

Beastus_Maximus
01-09-2006, 01:00 AM
Steve, this is a damn good point you make, and I can tell everyone first hand, I have a titanium plate and 32 screws in my face, as well as the two lower vertabrae in my back a busted up really nice, all because some no tallen @$$ clown wanted to get high on meth and get on the interstate at the same time as me. I had two of my best friends in the world in the truck with me when it happened, it ended a military career, and totally screwed my life up, I still feel the effects of it to this day. By all rights I should be dead. You dont want to have to go through what I have belive me, I have had my face cut off, and I do mean off twice.

As far as it goes for being indestructable, I am 6'1" tall and 260 lbs and im built like a brick ******er. Once upon a time I was one of the US Navy's prodical sons, so if I can get ****ed up in an accident, so can everyone else on here. And I was in a Chevy Z71 and that truck was wasted. 65 mph crash as well.

Belive me when I say my car is going to have a full cage and damn good seats with 4 way belts, I am not about to play around with my life, as well you go out here and get yourself all messed up, it is a great deal of fun going through the trials and trivuations of tyring to find a job you can work as well after having a few hundred thousand dollars worth of surgery done to yourself. Picking up the pieces is never fun, and the ladies really arent impressed by your stupidity. Be cool, be safe, then drive it like you stole it - Nick

parsonsj
01-09-2006, 04:08 AM
Rear seat belt ass'y pics coming up. Look for 'em this week.

jp

CAMAROBOY69
01-09-2006, 04:59 AM
Very very good thread Steve. Since I am starting to race my car more and more on raceways, I really need to look more into safety equipment. I dont even have a roll bar right now. Yes I know its very stupid to run without one. I am slowly trying to piece more and more parts together to make my car safer. I could care less how they look which makes this thread perfect for me. As mentioned before your car has inspired me in many ways. I would like to see a safety article in PHR magazine as soon as possible. I have a simple fear of my car burning up yet I was too stupid to buy a simple fire extinguisher. If my car had ever caught fire I would have kicked my own a$$ forever.
You should make a check up list of safety features for a car like fire extinguisher, seats, roll bar, seat belts, loose items in the car like those speakers.
My car is currently a perfect example of a PT car that needs a reality check in safety. :hammer:

Steve Chryssos
01-09-2006, 05:56 AM
If you buy a street/strip rollbar or roll cage kit andinstall it yourself, the job can be done for under $1500. Things get expensive when you get creative. The ultimate goal in a pro-touring car is to maximize safety while minimizing inconvenience, so some custom bars are required.

For example, a typical NHRA legal door bar is flat out in the way. Not such a big deal when getting into the car, but really annoying when getting out. The obvious solution is a swing out bar, but the typical swing out bar is really designed for straight line racing where risks of a side impact are low. The possibility of a door/side impact is much higher in a road course setting. Furthermore, when you try to achieve dual NHRA and SCCA compliance, you now must accomodate a sill bar in the same area. Sounds like a pain in the ass, but if you stare at it long enough, the presence of a sill bar opens up flexibility in designing the door bar. I'm very happy with my non swing out door bar/sill bar design EXCEPT that I really wish that my A-pillar bar went thru the top of the dash instead of behind the dash. Other than that, the only thing missing is an additional vertical bar that connects the sill bar to the door bar alongside the seat. Ooh, one more: The leading edge of the door bar could have been closer to the sill bar. Okay other than those three things, I really like the design.
Custom bent tubes are the only way to restore some convenience without sacrificing strength. All told, my 100% custom cage cost around $3K. I could have saved money by starting with a standard NHRA kit and then only making some bars. The following picture gets around more than a $5 crack-ho. I guess people really dig the design.

EDIT: The cheapie roll bar padding is gone. Look close, and you can also see the fire system pull handle where the cig lighter used to be (The bezel says "Lighter", the handle says "FIRE!"). Also evident is our first attempt at manumatic shifting: A coupla trans-brake buttons and coil cords.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

CAMAROBOY69
01-09-2006, 06:00 AM
Steve,
Not sure if you read my reply but I was wondering if you have a fire extinguisher anywhere in your car?
Burning to death in my car is the only real fear I have in life. (well burning to death in general scares me)

Steve Chryssos
01-09-2006, 06:01 AM
The Firebottle is under the dash where the heater box used to be. The two port nozzle is in the dash just to the left of the glove box door. Noneof this is hard if you are building a race car. A monkey can do it. Just follow the rulebook. The challenge comes when trying to make all this stuff work in a multi-purpose vehicle. The brain must be switched to the ON position. Get creative!!

Edit: I'l take more detailed cage pics and post them for everyone's benefit. Give me a coupla days. I want to pull the passenger seat for best camera access (it's gotta come out anyway to redo the shelf.)

Steve Chryssos
01-09-2006, 06:04 AM
Yup. I have a fire extinguisher mounted to one of the bars behind the seat. If you don't mind, try to mount it between the seats on the tunnel.

CAMAROBOY69
01-09-2006, 06:08 AM
Between the rear bucket seats is where I was planning on mounting mine. I was just concerned how well they bolt into place. Just want to make sure any of the straps or brackets would hold up in an accident. Is there a special place to buy car extinguishers or can I just pick one up from a local store and make my own brackets? I really need to get one before my April event.

Steve Chryssos
01-09-2006, 06:59 AM
Making your own brackets is a challenge because they need to be quick release. Get one "anywhere", but examine the brackets. Placement is a compromise between easy and quick accessibility and safety (projectile). Mine will be moved to the leadinng edge of the rear shelf so that I can twist around, pull on the latches and spring into action like a greek ninja.

CAMAROBOY69
01-09-2006, 07:27 AM
Greek ninja. :lol:
I am thinking some sort of quick pin release. However the pin and brackets would have to be thick enought to not snap in half upon a collision.
All this discussion reminds me of the episode of Myth Busters where they tested all the objects that go flying in a car collision. Very good episode.
I have always called those speakers (like you have in your car) "Torpedos". I just laugh when I see those speakers setting in the back windows of high school kids cars.

69Nova
01-09-2006, 08:06 AM
I'm very happy with my non swing out door bar/sill bar design EXCEPT that I really wish that my A-pillar bar went thru the top of the dash instead of behind the dash.

Why do you not like it. I would rather have it like your is. Wouldnt there be some other problems if you went through the dash anyways.

Steve1968LS2
01-09-2006, 08:10 AM
Yup. One of my projects this winter is to recess the speakers and cd changer into the shelf--not the vertical firewall, but the horizontal shelf. Right now they are super velcro'd. The thinking was to remove them at the track. One more DON'T to show. I'll be happy to show all my mistakes. No shame in sharing.

Actually I just came up with the killer idea..

I will run four small hidden speakers and one 4-channel amp. They will all be hidden.

The cool part? No headunit.. I will simply have a place to plug in a small MP3 player (like a nano) directly into the amp (headphone to RCA to amp). I figure this save on weight and clutter.

69Nova
01-09-2006, 08:15 AM
Thats a killer idea steve.

Steve Chryssos
01-09-2006, 08:53 AM
Why do you not like it. I would rather have it like your is. Wouldnt there be some other problems if you went through the dash anyways.

Andrew,
Thru the dash is tough to install, but waaaay better to live with. The bottom part of the A-pillar bar makes it that much tougher to get in and out. Your foot keeps hitting it. Camaros and Novas are small enough as is. You'll be surprised how much interior volume the roll cage consumes once it's installed. Better to suffer the under dash issues once than to live with that bar being in the way forever. On an A-body it may not matter.

If you do decide to go thru the top of the dash, just be sure to have all of your under dash components on hand for fitting.

Steve,
My stereo is pretty well handled. The head is hidden where the driver's side rear window regulator used to be. Controller is flush mounted into the back of the floor shifter. Rear speakers are a problem because the conflict with the idea of a sealed firewall.

Mean 69
01-09-2006, 09:05 AM
A small but incredibly important issue with the race type harnesses (which I too have in my 69). In addition to the stretch issue that begs to have the length of the shoulder harness minimized (stated on page 1 by Steeve-o), the other statement of having the rear restraint at shoulder level is critical, or rather, the angle that the shoulder harness makes, installed, in side view is the issue. I read an install guide from Simpson a few years back that stated no more than 45 degrees, but I think they revised that to state something far shallower, like 15 degrees? Why? Because if it is steeper (i.e. rear mount point lower) in a forward crash the belt will compress your spine, which could potentially be worse than the impact of your torso with steering wheel, windshield, etc.

Sitting in a car with a full cage gives one the feeling of claustrophobia (sp?), most folks don't realize this. Oh well, I agree that safety comes first.

Just a point to having a full on safety article that gives ADVISE to people, careful with the liability issue, especially with the cage. Most of the cages I have seen in cars short of well built race cars are crap. Anyway, if you want some input for an article, etc, I can share what I know also if there is interest.

Mark

69Nova
01-09-2006, 09:34 AM
Thanks Steve, I did not think about it like that. While it would not be a problem for me now it would anoy my parents and I guess me many years down the road.

BonzoHansen
01-09-2006, 01:20 PM
This is fascinating and important. Threads like this is why I come here. Kudos. Sad all the things we see all the time, due to lack of understanding, stupidity, cheapness, vanity, whatever…

Here is what was hit so far:
-back seats & rollbars / bad bar design / no rollbars (or cage)
-improperly installed racing belts / lap belts / no belts
-cheap seats / poorly designed seats / old seats
-fire suppression / safety
-fuel cutoff – how many guys haven’t even considered this?
-loose or poorly mounted cockpit items (speakers, radar detectors, etc…)

Some other topics, although they are addressed in other forums, but maybe not with the primary safety emphasis (some of this is from what I see on other boards or in person):
---Brakes – mismatched components / poorly installed / undersized (especially with big wheels (http://www.moderntiredealer.com/t_inside.cfm?action=performancehb_det&storyID=1201))
---Transmissions/drivetrain – scattershields, quality flywheels, shaft loops, axels, etc.
---Exterior lighting – this came to mind when someone mentioned pro-street cars getting rear ended. How many ‘hot rods’ do you see with tiny little lights? And some older muscle cars had poor lighting. A lot of guys remove side marker lights, and I never understand that either. And let’s not forget ‘blackout’ plates (because why would anyone need to see your stop lights).
---Removing stock safety items – here is one that always gets me – removing the door reinforcements on street cars to save 35 pounds. Damn.
---Poor electrical work – I once saw a kid bring his 3rd gen in and the amp cable (unfused, no less) actually wrapped through the hood hinge to get to the inner fender because he didn’t know how to run it through the firewall.


I envisioned an overall introduction story about general safety then specific ones on roll cages, fire suppression and such.I always thought safety was a facet never even remotely addressed well in mainstream mags. I think there should be a solid tech article every month on a different topic; a constant feature. And I mean more than how to install a bolt-on Baer kit. Theory. And show pics of what happens when things go wrong. Pic=1000 words, right? (not picking on PHR, btw, I mean all of them)


Where a person draw the line on safety and need for safety equipment is as bad as getting people to wear safety glasses at work. You keep telling yourself you should never need it, but it just isn't true. You always need it before you need it. Slightly off topic, I have worn s/g a lot more since we had a guy in another store lose an eye to a drum brake spring some years ago (I’m out of the business some 7 years now). Even weed-wacking the lawn.


Rear seat belt ass'y pics coming up. Look for 'em this week.I look forward to this with great anticipation. I need rear 3 points in my 77 like now and my 67 in the not too distant future.

CAMAROBOY69
01-09-2006, 01:31 PM
This is probably the best thread I have seen on this site in a while. I really have been boiling my brain today about how unsafe my car is and things I really need to change.
Nothing more important than learning from someone elses mistake. I know Steves accident and helpful information will save someones life some day. If it hasnt already. :grouphug:
I have written down a lot of good info today. That last reply reminded me I need a driveshaft loop too.

Damn True
01-09-2006, 01:47 PM
This might be a handy way to kill two birds with one stone. A bit of chassis stiffness, and a driveshaft loop at the same time.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

CAMAROBOY69
01-09-2006, 01:54 PM
That just reminded me I also need sub frame connectors. :pat:
*adds those to the list*

vanzuuk1
01-09-2006, 02:14 PM
If anyone can post a link or photo of a decent portable fire extinguisher it would be nice.I bought two thirty dollar extinguishers and mounted them in front of each seat.I would like to mount one on the tunnel, the hardware on mine is too flimsy.

I cringe when I see cars packed with crap or contracter vans filled with potential weapons.

Damn True
01-09-2006, 02:24 PM
I posted some links to some nifty AFFF suppression systems in the "fire suppression" thread.

As for quick releases for extinguishers.....

Here are some ideas:

http://www.hmsmotorsport.com/store/track-safety/fire/porsche-fire-ext-bracket
http://www.ioportracing.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=IPRS&Category_Code=FES
http://www.motorspot.com/fire.html



Some really good stuff on the ioport site.

Steve Chryssos
01-09-2006, 03:52 PM
I posted some links to some nifty AFFF suppression systems in the "fire suppression" thread.

As for quick releases for extinguishers.....
Here are some ideas:
http://www.hmsmotorsport.com/store/track-safety/fire/porsche-fire-ext-bracket
http://www.ioportracing.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=IPRS&Category_Code=FES
http://www.motorspot.com/fire.html
Some really good stuff on the ioport site.

Great stuff. Thanks. I'll move my fire extinguisher in front of the passenger seat.

parsonsj
01-09-2006, 04:16 PM
A bit of chassis stiffness, and a driveshaft loop at the same time.

And an excellent place to bolt the back of a seat.

jp

Damn True
01-09-2006, 05:40 PM
Had not thought of that, but yeah. Good call.

Beastus_Maximus
01-09-2006, 08:49 PM
A great idea I have had after reading all of this discussion is building a speaker box where my back seat used to be that contains my changer, speakers, amp and all of the fixins, and is hard mounted into the car where it will have no chance of being a projection hazard. As well it would be perfect for filling in that space where the seat used to be, and would be one hell of allot easier to upholster.

For a built in system the fire bottle could easily be mounted ontop of this enclosure as well. I think that is a pretty rad idea, then I can mount a free bottle infront of the passenger seat. Sounds like a plan to me.

Somthing else that would be a damn good idea is having a impact switch that would kill the fuel pump in the event of a crash. Anyone know of a place that makes one? Also just a thought, but hooking up a switch to the "Fire" handle in the dash that would kill the fuel pump as well would be a novel idea.

And somting else I just thought of that would be good to bring up is lug nut's and studs, when you add after market wheels to your car, you are often times using much less of your stock leingth stud, as well I have seen many people take old rusty stock studs and brush them off. On the other hand ARP makes some very nice replacement studs that are much higher qualtiy than stock. It would cost less than 30 bucks to replace all of them on your car, I think it is money well spent, for wheels falling off can really mess up your day, and if it strikes some one, it can get you sued.

69Nova
01-09-2006, 09:39 PM
Somthing else that would be a damn good idea is having a impact switch that would kill the fuel pump in the event of a crash. Anyone know of a place that makes one? Also just a thought, but hooking up a switch to the "Fire" handle in the dash that would kill the fuel pump as well would be a novel idea.


I think there is something for racecars that when there has been a certain amount of shock to it it shuts the car off. I think it goes on or near the fuse block. Anybody know what I am talking about?

parsonsj
01-10-2006, 07:49 AM
No precision involved John, they are not accurately torqued, simply tightened enough that will not fall off OK, given that: one should use a torque wrench with clean and lubricated threads on both the stud and nut to verify properly tightened lugnuts. Otherwise, there may be safety issues either with the car in motion (very bad) or while attempting to remove the lugnut (not so bad, but still an unnecessary risk) at a later time.

Otherwise, I'm not sure what you are trying to say.

jp

sinned
01-10-2006, 04:13 PM
I don't like using anything on lugnuts or studs. In that environment it tends to attract dust/dirt/debris, ruins threads quickly when coming off. I do make sure they are clean and dry with no burrs or obvious pulled threads.

parsonsj
01-11-2006, 09:40 AM
Denny,

We moved this discussion over to a new thread. I didn't want you to think we were ignoring you ...

jp

sinned
01-11-2006, 04:19 PM
I noticed

Steve Chryssos
01-11-2006, 06:51 PM
I pulled my passenger seat and started taking pictures today. If anyone else has pictures to submit for this tech article, please email them to me.

Bueller.....Bueller.....

69Nova
01-11-2006, 07:43 PM
Thanks for the work steve. I'm sure many cars will benifit from the tech articles.

SHANE 73Z
01-11-2006, 08:18 PM
retracted

sinned
01-11-2006, 09:26 PM
Keep in mind the point of having a roll cage used in conjunction with a 4 point or better harness has zero to do with providing a place to mount the shoulder harness. The point of the cage is to provide roll over protection in the event of an accident as the shoulder harnesses will keep you sitting upright during roll and crushed if the roof were to buckle. A typical 3-point shoulder belt allows the driver to roll over the shoulder belt if the roof caves in by design, 4-points do not offer this luxury. Remember that if the most racing classes don't accept it maybe you shouldn't trust your life to it either.



Using bolt in 4 point bars for attaching the racing harness to is about as blingy as running 20's. If you are going to go through the trouble and expense (doing so indicates you intend to drive the wheels off it and require this type of protection) you better do it right.

parsonsj
01-11-2006, 09:27 PM
OK, Steve, I hear ya. I'll get you some before the weekend. Can I send you some "torque wrenches, threads, and lubrication" text too?

jp

Steve Chryssos
01-12-2006, 09:45 AM
Dennis,
I will emphasize the converse:

1) Roll bars and roll cages provide rollover protection, side impact protection and improved chassis rigidity. Their "tough" appearance is a byproduct of their function But the appearance benefit is usually outweighed by their inconvenience, so if style is a primary concern, DON'T plan on installing a roll bar and/or rollcage.
2) If your project does not include plans for a proper roll bar, don't use racing harnesses. Use a a modern passenger car 3-point belt. The one and only way to properly mount the shoulder harness component of a racing harness is to the main hoop cross-bar. So if you don't have a suitable roll bar with main hoop cross bar, DON'T run racing harnesses

And my thoughts on an introductory paragraph:
'Pro-Touring.com is a hot rod site. Many aspects of our vehicles--including suspension, wheels/tires and powertrain--are open to interpretation. However, there is one aspect of pro-touring and hot rodding in general that is not and should not be open to interpretation. That aspect is safety.

Safety parts selection can only be broken down into two categories. For the purpose of this article, they will be labelled as such: "Pure Street" and "Competition". Both offer compromises, yet there is no middle ground. There is no room for mixing and matching parts to suit personal preference or style. There is only one right way and one wrong way for each category...........


See? I've done this once or twice before. :here!: It'll be okay.

David Pozzi
01-12-2006, 08:17 PM
If anyone can post a link or photo of a decent portable fire extinguisher it would be nice.I bought two thirty dollar extinguishers and mounted them in front of each seat.I would like to mount one on the tunnel, the hardware on mine is too flimsy.

I cringe when I see cars packed with crap or contracter vans filled with potential weapons.

There are extinguishers with two straps on them, that is the way to go for a handheld extinguisher.
One thing, the typical handheld extinguisher is empty in about 10 - 15 SECONDS! They don't do much.

We had a pickup truck catch fire, it had a handheld ext in it. The guys emptied it but the fire still burned. The fire dept was 5 miles away and by the time they got to it the fire had burned up into the dash and broke the windshield, cooked the hood.

I'd like to see PHR develop a safety page for every issue, cover shop safety and tips in additon to several articles a year on car safety features. All these shows like Monster Garage show guys working in the most unsafe conditons I've ever seen! If my guys worked that way, I'd fire them.

David Pozzi
01-12-2006, 08:30 PM
Great stuff. Thanks. I'll move my fire extinguisher in front of the passenger seat.

I have a handheld fire extinguisher in front of my drivers seat in my 67.

David Pozzi
01-12-2006, 08:36 PM
It would be great to have some roll bar advice quotes from guys who do them for a living. Also specs on what the requirments are for SCCA or NHRA.

sinned
01-12-2006, 09:28 PM
Pretty much all organizations require at least 1.75X.120 which means you need to start with .134 or so to avoid going thin in the bends. Door bars and cross bracing varies greatly between the various groups. Some say a couple horizontals are fine, some require diagonals intersecting horizontals. It's best to figure out what group you intend to run with most often and overbuild from there. All groups’ inspections of cages are open to interpretation by the tech official; he may say that although it isn't what they desire it is good enough.

Railing68
01-12-2006, 10:40 PM
I just remounted 4pt my harnesses last night and according to this link sent to me by a seat retailer the proper way to mount harnesses is a 20* or a shallower angle. Not possible without the crossbar, and the stock seats that I currently have are a deathtrap. Apparently you can exceed that angle with certain seats listed (I believe they are all fixed style) up to 45* but don't quote me on that.

Also according to him there are no reclinable seats that pass the FIA ratings, only fixed and many of those have lost their ratings. The cobra seats mentioned in a prior post do-not pass the FIA rating.

Going to have to upgrade my seats and research some 3pts. There is some good info via this link, hopefully the info helps a few people. SS


http://www.schroth.com/installation-instructions/en/index.html

Steve1968LS2
01-13-2006, 10:01 AM
It would be great to have some roll bar advice quotes from guys who do them for a living. Also specs on what the requirments are for SCCA or NHRA.

Hmm.. this is officially on my list of stories to do..

I think the rollbar story would go with the info on belts. then a story on fuel safety and fire suppression..

What else besides seats that could be mentioned in the seatbelt section..??

Steve1968LS2
01-13-2006, 10:03 AM
Dennis,
And my thoughts on an introductory paragraph:
'Pro-Touring.com is a hot rod site. Many aspects of our vehicles--including suspension, wheels/tires and powertrain--are open to interpretation. However, there is one aspect of pro-touring and hot rodding in general that is not and should not be open to interpretation. That aspect is safety.

Safety parts selection can only be broken down into two categories. For the purpose of this article, they will be labelled as such: "Pure Street" and "Competition". Both offer compromises, yet there is no middle ground. There is no room for mixing and matching parts to suit personal preference or style. There is only one right way and one wrong way for each category...........


Can I quote you on that??? lol

Damn True
01-13-2006, 10:30 AM
Hmm.. this is officially on my list of stories to do..

I think the rollbar story would go with the info on belts. then a story on fuel safety and fire suppression..

What else besides seats that could be mentioned in the seatbelt section..??

Pro's/Con's of camlock vs. leverlock belts, attachment options - bolt vs loop, tech requirements - 2" vs 3" belts for various organizations (why you'd use 2" is beyond me, but they are sold and ought to be discussed) lifespan of harness material, inspection schedules, supplimental head restraints (Hans device and similar), arm restraints window nets etc.

You could break it down by what is available for a street system, Seats, Mounting and Belts and do the same for a Street/Track car and for a pure competition car.

I think a lot of benefit could be gained by outlining what is and is not appropriate for each application.

Damn True
01-13-2006, 05:28 PM
Edit: I'l take more detailed cage pics and post them for everyone's benefit. Give me a coupla days. I want to pull the passenger seat for best camera access (it's gotta come out anyway to redo the shelf.)

Steve,

When you pull that seat, could you snap a couple of photos of the seat mount?

Steve Chryssos
01-14-2006, 10:09 PM
That picture and more are here. These pix will be merged with text into an html page by Larry. This is not the actual article.

http://homepage.mac.com/streetfytr/postingfolder/PhotoAlbum40.html

Jim Nilsen
01-14-2006, 10:55 PM
When doing my rollcage I concluded that I would have been better off going with a 2" main hoop. Several reasons for this are very evident when you read about circumstances that have caused some grief for others here both experienced and nonexperienced.

A 2" main hoop will always pass tech inspection anywhere you go and the Gforce cuda is experiencing the repercutions of the rules for having a smaller main hoop. The other reason to go with a larger main hoop is that it is easier to weld the other smaller tubing to it. I would have had a lot less aggrevation welding the other tubes to it because you are more aligned with the face of the tube you are welding to. Having enough room to get between the roof and the top of the tube was the biggest pain I had when welding it all up. If it had been a 2" main hoop it would have been much easier.

The 1/4" from center extra dia. is nothing compared to the other problems it causes and I wish I had gone with a 2" main hoop.

I did fortunately go with 1 5/8 .134 wall tubing which will suffice in most sanctions if ever needed.

It is just one little tidbit that doesn't weigh only a few pounds more and will add sooo much more safety at such a little cost that it is just plainly not worth it to go with less. If I ever build another cage it will have a 2" main hoop.

Jim Nilsen

vanzuuk1
01-15-2006, 07:44 AM
Jim Unless anyone can convince me otherwise, that makes sense to me.

vanzuuk1
01-15-2006, 07:47 AM
Steevo The photo of your back seat area really shows that a cage and a back seat just dont work.

toxicz28
01-15-2006, 08:07 AM
the typical handheld extinguisher is empty in about 10 - 15 SECONDS! They don't do much.

Amen to that! I had a GTP that caught fire under the hood, went through 4 hand helds and the car still burned. Just not as bad as if I just waited for the foundations savers... I mean fire dept to get there. (a half mile away, and it still took 10 minutes AND they drove past my house twice!) me -> :slap: <- them
A side note, this is a much needed thread!

sinned
01-15-2006, 08:44 AM
I'm going to reserve comment on running a 2" tube over 1 3/4" for right now. Does anyone have access to weight per foot of different size tubing?

Steve Chryssos
01-15-2006, 09:13 AM
Steevo The photo of your back seat area really shows that a cage and a back seat just dont work.

Yeah, the back seat in a Camaro is useless as far as I'm concerned. If you want a back seat, build an A-body. with that shelf, the area serves a useful purpose now. Beach towels, a cooler and that's it. Wrks better as a additional trunk capacity. I also hung a motorcycle tool bag from the main hoop cross bar for the obvious: Tire pressure gauge, coupla screw drivers and my kazoo.

Ralph LoGrasso
01-15-2006, 09:47 AM
I did fortunately go with 1 5/8 .134 wall tubing which will suffice in most sanctions if ever needed.

Jim, 1 5/8 .134 will pass tech for NHRA / SCCA for our cars. However, most ORR sanctioning bodies require 1.75 .134 wall. Just wanted to note that for other members, as I wasn't aware of this until I started researching the rules; I assumed 1 5/8 was sufficient.


mean fire dept to get there. (a half mile away, and it still took 10 minutes AND they drove past my house twice!)

Volleys or FDNY? I assume volleys?

69Nova
01-15-2006, 10:44 AM
Thanks for the pictures. Good news is I found a place that can do a cage for me. Now I just need to read some rulebooks and gather some more info(along with save money).

69Nova
01-15-2006, 11:03 AM
Is it completly safe to have bolts going through the top of the seat like that. I guess if your tall it could be fine, but I'm short(I'm 5,5") so would the bolts possibly hurt me in a crash.

Jim Nilsen
01-15-2006, 11:04 AM
Thanks for noting that Ralph, I checked into the rules when I did my cage and went with what I did because I thought that other sanctions would be the same but they are not. If you really read through the SCCA rule book you will find a few discrepencies about 1 5/8" vs 2" and in some classes 2" is required.
The difference in 1 3/4" to 2" is minimal and the reality that 2" is required by some will make it much easier on the guy who has 2". To add on to a cage is simple but to have to tear it all out at the main hoop is a pain and costly.

To answer the question about the weight difference between 1 5/8" and 2"? If I remember correctly it was 5 to 7 lb max for just the main hoop depending on if it was .120 or .134 wall. If you go with 2" you can get by with .120 almost anywhere but a few sanctions. Hopefully someone with a steel catalog with the weights will verify, I can't find mine at the moment.

Jim Nilsen

MuscleRodz
01-15-2006, 01:22 PM
This might be a handy way to kill two birds with one stone. A bit of chassis stiffness, and a driveshaft loop at the same time.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
Who make's this drive shaft loop? I have been looking for a good one for a while.

Mike

Steve Chryssos
01-15-2006, 01:54 PM
Is it completly safe to have bolts going through the top of the seat like that. I guess if your tall it could be fine, but I'm short(I'm 5,5") so would the bolts possibly hurt me in a crash.

No. It's not completely safe. Kinda fits into the same category as "Will my head impact the halo bar?"

Funny story actually since I asked the same question of my fabricator. His response sounds pretty good to me:
Look at the design in total. Two 3/8" bolts with an aluminum seat and steel plate sandwiched in between the hardware (bolts, nuts, fender washers. The bolts aren't going anywhere. The steel plate covers a large surface area such that it distributes load across the seat surface. (I think it could be larger). And it's steel so it isn't going anywhere. First part to fail would be the aluminum seat. If failure occurs the seat would tear free of the mount. It will only tear AFTER it deforms. And the seat will not deform unless the surrounding cage deforms--which assumes that the steel roof caved in and crushed the steel rollbar such that the seat deformed. In any event, if the seat were to tear, the sandwiched portion would remain intact so the bolts aren't going anywhere.

That's how it was explained to me only the fabricator added the words: "If you're gonna ask stupid questions, I'm gonna have to charge you extra." Then he flared his eyes and smiled. Needless to say, I had a lot more questions and was unpleasantly surprised when I finally saw my invoice.

Keep asking questions, Andrew. I might save you a lot of money.

Steve Chryssos
01-15-2006, 02:11 PM
...........That's how it was explained to me only the fabricator added the words: "If you're gonna ask stupid questions, I'm gonna have to charge you extra." Then he flared his eyes and smiled. Needless to say, I had a lot more questions and was unpleasantly surprised when I finally saw my invoice.

Keep asking questions, Andrew. I might save you a lot of money.

Don't take that the wrong way Andrew. Just a joke with a little lesson mixed in. Good race car fabricators are usually lacking in "people skills". Since questions pertaining to safety are to be expected, ask away.

69Nova
01-15-2006, 02:17 PM
Don't take that the wrong way Andrew. Just a joke with a little lesson mixed in. Good race car fabricators are usually lacking in "people skills". Since questions pertaining to safety are to be expected, ask away.

Don't worry Steve.


Keep asking questions, Andrew. I might save you a lot of money

Thanks for all the help. I'm sure you will probly save me money in the long run. It's nice to know I'm not annoying you with questions.

Jim Nilsen
01-15-2006, 04:42 PM
2in. tubing weighs 2.726 lb per foot for .120 wall and 3.036 for .135 wall.
1.5in. is 1.994 for .120 wall and 2.214 for .135 wall.

The difference is .712 for .120 and .822 for .135. So it is about 7 to 8 lbs. difference in weight for a 10ft. hoop and most will be a bit more by about a foot or so in full size cars and some will be a bit shorter in cars like Andrews Mazda. The difference between 2in. and the 1 5/8 or 1 3/4 will be even less. It would seem that it is 3 to 5 lbs. difference at the most.

So there you now have the exact amounts.

Jim Nilsen

Jim Nilsen
01-15-2006, 05:05 PM
Hey Dave , I saw your post about the working safety on shows like Monster Garage and I too can't believe that the insurance companies for those guys don't call them on it. I see it happening on most of the shows except the ones on the DIY network. The DIY network is always emphisizing safety on everything they do and some of the Speed Channel shows do too but the others really make me wonder what's going on in their heads.
I have always wondered how places like Boyd's doesn't ruin a 20k paint job by grinding on something right next to a complete show car paint job? I know what those sparks do to all of the stuff in my shop especially my safety glasses and for the life of me would never do what they do.

Mike, I don't know who manufactures a driveshaft hoop like that but it is one lengthy bit of fab work to make one and the smoothed welds and perfect shape are nice to look at. It would be nice if Matt would estimate the time to make for him but I know it would take me at least 20hrs or more to do one if not a lot more with the lack of equipment I have to bend rectangular tubing and flat stock.

Jim Nilsen

Damn True
01-16-2006, 12:22 AM
Who make's this drive shaft loop? I have been looking for a good one for a while.

Mike



Grabbed the photo from Metal Works (site sponsor) website. Click on services then custom design & fabrication.

Damn True
01-16-2006, 10:40 AM
Here is a possible solution to that issue.
http://www.ioportracing.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=SBB15&Category_Code=IOPP
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

An adjustable seat back brace. This would allow you to set and lock a position comfortable for daily driving using the sliders and recline function on a reclining seat. And also allow you to set and lock a position appropriate for track or auto-x driving. While I'm pretty certain that it would not get you past the FIA standard you mention, it would provide a possible solution if your prefered driving postion for the track is different from just mucking about in the car.




I just remounted 4pt my harnesses last night and according to this link sent to me by a seat retailer the proper way to mount harnesses is a 20* or a shallower angle. Not possible without the crossbar, and the stock seats that I currently have are a deathtrap. Apparently you can exceed that angle with certain seats listed (I believe they are all fixed style) up to 45* but don't quote me on that.

Also according to him there are no reclinable seats that pass the FIA ratings, only fixed and many of those have lost their ratings. The cobra seats mentioned in a prior post do-not pass the FIA rating.

Going to have to upgrade my seats and research some 3pts. There is some good info via this link, hopefully the info helps a few people. SS


http://www.schroth.com/installation-instructions/en/index.html

69Nova
01-16-2006, 11:42 AM
Thats a cool little brace.

vanzuuk1
01-16-2006, 01:35 PM
If you get an impact from the rear would you be impaled on that?

Damn True
01-16-2006, 01:48 PM
It's just an adjustable version of :

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

David Pozzi
01-16-2006, 03:43 PM
I've seen a flat sheet for a seat brace recomended in a circle track mag. The theory was the sheet would buckle and absorb some of the impact. This is probably not current thinking though. I think NASCAR has developed lots of new safety information that has yet to filter down to the lower ranks.
Most of the Circle Track magazines run a safety article or two over the winter.


Steve1968LS2, it's time to check out your "sister" publications for some good articles!

Streetfytr68, you should edit the title of this forum post to better show it's safety related, that way it will show up more easily in a forum search.

Steve Chryssos
01-16-2006, 06:32 PM
Hmm........What shall I name it? :hmm:

zbugger
01-16-2006, 07:02 PM
Hmm........What shall I name it? :hmm:
How about... Bob?

Steve Chryssos
01-16-2006, 08:15 PM
How about... Bob?
Thanks.

Steve Chryssos
01-16-2006, 08:20 PM
It changed in the thread, but I can't seem to make it change in the forum_main page. Can I get an administrator in here? Clean-up on aisle seven.

David Pozzi
02-04-2006, 09:46 PM
Ralph, can you make this thread a sticky?

Ralph LoGrasso
02-04-2006, 09:54 PM
Stuck.

jelky68
02-05-2006, 08:09 PM
I would like to offer one more thing to think pertaining to safety,that I believe we are all guilty of.As much as I hate to say this it's from plain ignorance and on my part as well as being to excited to pay attention to simple things...I just traded my 1963 Chevy Fleetside Pro-Streeter for a 1923 Bantam Drag Car.The full on deal...1800lbs,full roller 596CID,all Air shifted,air throttle,your basic 8'o package..after the long drive home after the trade and seeing the new toy on the trailer I could not wait to get in fire it up and experience the new toy "AT HOME"...your basic newbie thing...well i got in,fire'd it up,had to back it across the street of the trailer to get in my driveway,well all your adrenaline is pumping so I didnt even think about putting the harness on or even my helmet...I was just backing it off the trailer right???well once in and getting comfortable I blipped the throttle only,a little too much I have to admit,and the thing came up one the tire,the air shifter went into second,the tires caught and banged my head so hard off the cage I saw stars and lost my bearings,all the while heading for the front of my house by this time at about 90mph before I realized what was happening jammed the thing in park and slammed on the brakes stopping a few feet from my brick porch....So lesson to be learned...No matter how long you have been working on that project and how excited you are to get it fired and drive for the first time,please make sure you are buckled in and have all your required gear on..even if you think "I am just going around the block"..we seem to forgot those things when we are too excited to gets things finished and the payoff for all those hours and years of work are idling in the driveway..Please make sure you are covering all the bases of safety...From that point on since this happened to me,nothing leaves without my written safety list that I go over with each car regardless of on the strip or on the street...Sorry for the long dissertation but I learned that safety is the single most important thing in any car build-up..not from reading but from too many experiences that were from equipment failure and driver error...mine and the other guys...thanks Jim

David Pozzi
02-05-2006, 09:21 PM
This year at Laguna Seca Speed Ventures event a Zo6 Corvette hit the wall. I'm posting this just to show what can happen...

https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=7632

Damn True
03-07-2006, 07:18 PM
Think about it:

http://home.houston.rr.com/jonescbjcj/don_noe/don_noe_incident/index.html

Steve Chryssos
03-08-2006, 05:47 AM
Nice pictures! I like how his head stays fairly upright throughout the whole ordeal. Also the photos show how the cage limited the damage to the area in front of the axle centerline. Saved his ass and saved his car, too. Great website as well.

I know I owe you guys a safety article, but right now I'm bouncing around the country. Does anyone have access to a cloning machine?

vanzuuk1
03-08-2006, 02:22 PM
Jelky, thats a great story. With big power it can all go wrong in an instant, usually when you least expect it.

Imagine explaining that to your insurance company.(both of them)

speedster
03-08-2006, 04:27 PM
I know you are out working your butt off Steve. Butt... (OK crappy joke) Whenever you are back home AND have more than a few minutes, could you post up some of the basic dimensions of your cage ? Not as much the overall dimensions, but the ones for cross braces and supports. Am trying to gauge the relative height/width for strength purposes. Also, I am in Florida. Are there ANY places in Florida anyone would recommend for a GREAT chrome-moly rollcage installation?

I want the best since some unamed engine builder and magazine editor signed my car up for the HR Drag Week in September and safety is #1 with me. I have also used HANS before and will likely do so again.
TIA

Z06killinSBF
03-08-2006, 05:48 PM
I know you are out working your butt off Steve. Butt... (OK crappy joke) Whenever you are back home AND have more than a few minutes, could you post up some of the basic dimensions of your cage ? Not as much the overall dimensions, but the ones for cross braces and supports. Am trying to gauge the relative height/width for strength purposes. Also, I am in Florida. Are there ANY places in Florida anyone would recommend for a GREAT chrome-moly rollcage installation?

I want the best since some unamed engine builder and magazine editor signed my car up for the HR Drag Week in September and safety is #1 with me. I have also used HANS before and will likely do so again.
TIA

What part of Florida do you live in. I know of a few places around Jacksonville that can bend up and weld roll bars/cages.

Steve Chryssos
03-08-2006, 06:21 PM
I know you are out working your butt off Steve. Butt... (OK crappy joke) Whenever you are back home AND have more than a few minutes, could you post up some of the basic dimensions of your cage ? Not as much the overall dimensions, but the ones for cross braces and supports. Am trying to gauge the relative height/width for strength purposes......


Will do. The car is up in the air, the passenger seat is pulled and it ain't 12 freakin degrees outside. So I should be able to get what you are looking for by the end of the weekend.

Damn True
03-20-2006, 12:49 AM
Anyone see this months Chevy Hi Performance? A very nice looking Fathom Green '69 PT type build. Corbeau TRS seats with a 5-point harness system and..........no cage. Harness' mounted to the floor behind the seat.
I wish the mags wouldn't show stuff like that.

CAMAROBOY69
03-27-2006, 12:03 PM
Thanks to this thread I have added several inexpensive safety items to my car and will add many more as I can afford to do so. Thanks again Steve for such an eye opening thread.
Installed a driveshaft loop about a week ago. $15.00 Heather actually helped me with this.
Purchased a fire extinguisher today. $39.95
Piece of mind knowing my car is a little safer.....Priceless. :cool:

vanzuuk1
03-27-2006, 12:46 PM
I saw that car, I keep changing what wheels I want every time a green 69 apears in a mag. I had wanted the same wheels as reckin8tr but he beat me to it, now this car beat me again.

Adam , I have two fire extingiushers but the old timers tell me if your car has a real fire all they are good for is to keep busy while the car burns. Hope I never find out.

CAMAROBOY69
03-27-2006, 12:55 PM
Adam , I have two fire extingiushers but the old timers tell me if your car has a real fire all they are good for is to keep busy while the car burns. Hope I never find out.
I also hope I never have to find out. Oh well I will sleep and drive better knowing that it is there. Mabey my passengers will feel safer too. Or more nervous. "hey whats that fire extinguisher for"? :candle: Finally got to use that smiley.

Damn True
09-01-2006, 04:24 PM
If you are in the market for seats, and you plan to put your car on a track, you may wish to refer to this list.

Many popular seats have had their FIA ratings pulled.

http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/949453471__List_12_Approved_seats.pdf

Hidro
09-01-2006, 06:17 PM
---Removing stock safety items – here is one that always gets me – removing the door reinforcements on street cars to save 35 pounds. Damn.


What about all these cars with their front bumper missing?:slap:

Thanks for starting the thread...

firebob
12-09-2006, 10:32 PM
(quote Adam , I have two fire extingiushers but the old timers tell me if your car has a real fire all they are good for is to keep busy while the car burns. Hope I never find out.)

Well, I have to disagree. My car went through an engine fire when one of those chrome and glass fuel filters decided to fly apart on the freeway. Some very nice people in a camper towing a boat pulled over and dowsed it with one of those smallish extinguisers. The fire fighter was surprised when he got there because he said normally by the time they arrive on scene the fire has usually already moved into the passenger compartment and the car is a total loss at that point. You'd think I would carry one in all my cars(I did for years afterward) but sometimes it takes info like this thread to remind us how serious simple safety items are.
I'm wondering about the original belts in my 69 Firebird. Not exactly a 3 point belt but two separate belts that latch low/inboard side of the front seat occupant. I don't see an advantage to replacing these with a newer style 3 point arrangement. I have just installed an aftermarket 4 point bar made by CE. Mostly cosmetic but I thintk it will offer some good amout of protection in the event of a major mishap. Any opinions(good or bad) welcome. I do plan on padding it and reinstalling the rear seat. It's basically a show and parade car but I will take it out to the track on occasion.
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b6cc27b3127cce8f21f48be75300000016108BcNW7ly0b8

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b6cc27b3127cce8f21f572260200000010108BcNW7ly0b8

Robert

Damn True
12-13-2006, 10:39 AM
So ya think you don't need a cage for open track or occasional "spirited driving" on the street?

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

A Subie STI wadded up at Pacific Raceway during a time-trial event. The car was the only vehicle on course at the time. Driver was no slouch either. He is the SM national champ.

dhondagod
01-31-2008, 02:51 PM
So ya think you don't need a cage for open track or occasional "spirited driving" on the street?

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

A Subie STI wadded up at Pacific Raceway during a time-trial event. The car was the only vehicle on course at the time. Driver was no slouch either. He is the SM national champ.



Ooopsie....



Chris

Damn True
10-27-2009, 09:40 AM
Thinking about a bolt in "cage"?

Think again.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif


https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

^^ That is the mount plate and bolts from the main hoop of an Autopower "cage" (such as it is) pushed completely through the pan. ^^^

Notice in the photos in the included article, no main hoop diagonal and......wait for it...........removable harness bar on the street version.

http://50mustangsuperfords.automotive.com/118359/m5lp-0912-2010-mustang-gt-car-fx/index.html
http://www.mustang50magazine.com/featuredvehicles/m5lp_0912_2010_mustang_gt_car_fx_web_exclusive/2008_car_fx_number_12.html

neki67
10-27-2009, 12:22 PM
Mmmmmm True, Pics don't show?!

Mr.VENGEANCE
10-27-2009, 02:01 PM
Anyone know where they sell this rear glass setup?
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Damn True
10-27-2009, 03:00 PM
It's an aftermarket lexan window. Steve-o built the duct into it.

/end hijack

Damn True
10-27-2009, 07:59 PM
links fixed

Mr.VENGEANCE
10-27-2009, 09:21 PM
thanks True...
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/10/hijack-1.gif

neki67
10-27-2009, 11:18 PM
links fixed

Last 2 pics still don't show, True.

mjdwyer23
10-28-2009, 06:06 AM
Did that driver survive in the blue mustang?!?

Bryce
10-28-2009, 07:20 AM
http://jalopnik.com/5390934/mustang-cover-boy-tries-to-corner-flips-over-tire-wall?skyline=true&s=i

Damn True
10-28-2009, 08:36 AM
Did that driver survive in the blue mustang?!?

Yes. The driver and passenger both suffered minor injuries but survived. The reclining corbeau (not a racing seat) seat collapsed. One bit of POS faux-racing equipment nearly killed him and another saved his life by failing.

solarguy09
10-30-2011, 07:18 PM
Thought I would Re-Awaken this Thread...

Seemed like an issue worth talking about..

I am modding my car right now and looking at Seat, Seat belt, and Roll Bar options....Maybe not a full Cage, but a Roll bar that actually works....

You are right..if you are going to have the Brakes, wheels and tires, and Suspension, why not safety ?...

Even if I do not go on the track,
Just going through the gears Full throttle, is on the edge of Control and 100MPH plus.....

A roll over would not be good....

I am rethinking my Safety needs and concerns....

Any ideas ?? The Tiger cage looks sweet, but they don not say it is for roll overs ???????


EDIT:...I am having a Roll Bar built for my car, and welded in for Roof crush Protection...

No Cage..Thanks for the info..

More at a later date on my thread..

gsxrken
11-12-2011, 02:23 PM
Thought I would Re-Awaken this Thread...

Seemed like an issue worth talking about..

I am modding my car right now and looking at Seat, Seat belt, and Roll Bar options....Maybe not a full Cage, but a Roll bar that actually works....

A roll over would not be good....
I am rethinking my Safety needs and concerns....
Any ideas ?? The Tiger cage looks sweet, but they don not say it is for roll overs ???????

EDIT:...I am having a Roll Bar built for my car, and welded in for Roof crush Protection...


I'd be interested in what you decided on.
Going on the track at all is a philosophical question in and of itself. My wife would not agree that the benefits could outweigh the risks, regardless of any level of safety investments.

Serious question- is there any data available on how many people die or worse every year at track days? And is it more likely to be trauma or fire-related? Rollovers?

Too bad there is no data on track incidents similar to the Hurt report for motorcyclists. If there is please direct me to it.
http://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~john/vfr/hurt.html.

solarguy09
11-13-2011, 08:19 PM
Ken...

I will post what I come up with ,in the next month or so...

I am doing the Suspension, and Coil overs and Willwoods first.

Along with some other mods..When I get to the interior in late December, I will make a Decision on what I am doing.

To be quite honest, if my wife sees a Roll bar, she is going to ask what the hell am I going to be doing...

Well, I am not doing all this other work to just cruise around...

But you are right..Some thought needs to be put into the decision.

again, I have had the car since I was 23... back then I never considered safety that much...

At 52...Whole different story...

CRCRFT78
11-14-2011, 08:48 PM
This is a must read for everyone. I just went through all 8 pages, this thread needs to be revived and updated.

NOT A TA
11-15-2011, 06:33 AM
After this thread had died off I did a big safety upgrade project thread including full cage, fire systems etc. on my 70 Firebird "The 14 Car". Although it's overkill for most folks here, it was a couple years ago and so new guys probably never saw it and it might give someone helpful ideas. https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?48151-The-14-Car-safety-thread-Roll-Cage-Kirkey-seats-Fire-systems

firebob
03-16-2012, 04:05 PM
This is an old thread and I'm not sure anyone sees it anymore but I have a couple of things to say about it.
I have a first gen Firebird that is 95% street/5% track. I had installed a set of 5point harnasses because I was concerned about the integrity of the original belts. I only installed the shoulder and lap pieces and then went down to get teched for a track day. The tech wouldn't pass the car because he said I needed the submarine belt to make it safe. He said the belts could slip up the torso and crush internal organs. I'm thinking WTF? Now I can understand limiting ones liability but let's use some common sense here, these were 100% safer than the original belts. Thanks buddy for looking out for us. Also I have a 4 point bar installed in the car. Now god forbid that I ever end up with the wheels in the air but any structural help to help keep the top from encroaching on my helmet is a good thing IMO. Any kind of spirited driving carries with it inherant risks and it's something that an adult must realise and take responsibility for. Otherwise find a new hobby like stamp collecting or golf or some other equally exciting venture.
I didn't read all 8 pages but I'm surprised that nobody brought up whether 4/5 point belts or 3 point are safer in a roll over. The idea being a 3 point would allow the occupant to slide to one side when the top gets crushed where a 4/5 point wouldn't.

Robert

SparkyRnD
03-17-2012, 07:22 AM
the tech is looking out for your safety and that of others around, plus he is charged with protecting the track owners from liability. While the chances of something going wrong are small, they are still present. Even if I disagree with them, I have to respect their calls.

Stock belts are in most cases junk. I bought a set of Morris Classic Concepts 3pt belts for my normal driving conditions, as I wanted the safety of a 3pt, without the hassle of two separate belts (as came in my Cutlass). For racing, I bought a set of Schroth Rallye 4 ASM harnesses for driver and passenger. That gives me the security of a harness, but includes anti-sub-marining technology.

Twentyover
03-17-2012, 09:47 AM
This is an old thread and I'm not sure anyone sees it anymore but I have a couple of things to say about it.
I have a first gen Firebird that is 95% street/5% track. I had installed a set of 5point harnasses because I was concerned about the integrity of the original belts. I only installed the shoulder and lap pieces and then went down to get teched for a track day. The tech wouldn't pass the car because he said I needed the submarine belt to make it safe. He said the belts could slip up the torso and crush internal organs. I'm thinking WTF? Now I can understand limiting ones liability but let's use some common sense here, these were 100% safer than the original belts. Thanks buddy for looking out for us. Also I have a 4 point bar installed in the car. Now god forbid that I ever end up with the wheels in the air but any structural help to help keep the top from encroaching on my helmet is a good thing IMO. Any kind of spirited driving carries with it inherant risks and it's something that an adult must realise and take responsibility for. Otherwise find a new hobby like stamp collecting or golf or some other equally exciting venture.
I didn't read all 8 pages but I'm surprised that nobody brought up whether 4/5 point belts or 3 point are safer in a roll over. The idea being a 3 point would allow the occupant to slide to one side when the top gets crushed where a 4/5 point wouldn't.

Robert

You need to think about the dynamics of what happens in an impact.

A 3 point hitch will fold you over the lap belt, keeping the load on you hips. Not many soft parts down there (especially with us manly men) that can get permanently damaged.your pelvic structure absorbs the load.

In a 4 point, the torso pulls forward, and the shoulder straps pull the lap belts up from the pelvis into your jelly filled abdomen.Smash your fist on a jelly filled donut. There went your spleen. The purpose of a sub strap is not so much to keep you from sliding down through the harness as preventing the lap belts from sliding up you.

Schroth makes a DOT legal 4point harness. One shoulder strap is weaker than the other, and designed to partially 'fail' (in this context, 'failure' is the design intent of the strap) in heavy impact. again folding you over the lap belt so your skeletal structure takes the hit.

The tech guy did the right thing (unless you were running the Schroth )

Vicinity
03-17-2012, 10:38 AM
Yes. The driver and passenger both suffered minor injuries but survived. The reclining corbeau (not a racing seat) seat collapsed. One bit of POS faux-racing equipment nearly killed him and another saved his life by failing.

So Corbeau is not a repudiable "racing" brand? I'm not sure what you're getting at. I had planned to buy a set of their harness belts that mount using the stock 3 pts and an CR1 seat. Would you advise against that?

go-fish
04-04-2012, 08:46 AM
Corbeau RECLINING seats are not "race" seats. It doesn't matter the manufacturer. If it reclines it can collapse. Corbeau seats are very good when speaking in generalities but they do make different seats for different levels of driving. If you have a cruiser then reclining seats are great but if you want to get fast and drive 10/10ths (or even 8/10ths IMO) then stick with a REAL "racing" seat.

There are differences in "racing" seats and "street" seats. Even $1600 reclining Corbeau's will fail. The price point does not equal safety.

Damn True
04-04-2012, 09:08 AM
So Corbeau is not a repudiable "racing" brand? I'm not sure what you're getting at. I had planned to buy a set of their harness belts that mount using the stock 3 pts and an CR1 seat. Would you advise against that?

Adding to Johnny's post above, when I wrote the comment that you replied to Corbeau did not have FIA certs for ANY of their seats be it reclining or fixed. They did at one time, but when the requirements changed they (at the time) elected to let their certs lapse and not upgrade their product to the new requirements. I haven't checked in quite some time to see if that has changed or not, but when written that was the case.

A reclining seat IS NOT a racing seat and should not be considered such. Better than stock? Sure. But it should not be considered safety equipment in the manner that a properly installed, certified fixed back seat is.

Bryce
04-04-2012, 10:06 AM
When will a certified fuel cell be required in the RTTX series?

Damn True
04-04-2012, 10:45 AM
Required? I don't want to speak for Bill but it probably won't be. Awfully good idea though for track use.

Bryce
04-04-2012, 11:16 AM
Required? I don't want to speak for Bill but it probably won't be. Awfully good idea though for track use.

I was just thinking as this series progresses new rules will be added. Just like this year, 3pt harness, fire extinguisher etc....

Poopy
04-04-2012, 06:38 PM
I built my car following CACC and SCCA rules for safety, then kept it street legal from there.....I've rolled over enough times to know I like cages that work!

riles
09-25-2013, 10:51 AM
Good reading, as I am getting ready to install roll bar (probably a 6 pt with bolt in cross bar.) and other safety items. Also was thinking of using a fox body or newer Mustang seat without the headrest, in m y 65 fastback, until I read this. Now going with the headrest and lowering the seat box. Thanks to all for the info.

HellPhish89
12-16-2013, 06:26 PM
So ya think you don't need a cage for open track or occasional "spirited driving" on the street?

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

A Subie STI wadded up at Pacific Raceway during a time-trial event. The car was the only vehicle on course at the time. Driver was no slouch either. He is the SM national champ.

a cage on the street can be more dangerous. cages are usually meant to be use with helmets, harnesses, and other restraints. proper OEM quality seats (AND MOUNTS!), seat belts, etc are really the other most important parts.

one of the worst things i see is people putting obscene amounts of power into their car without even thinking of the brakes. same with tires.

there has to be some planning when these builds start. is it going to be a track animal or not? if it isnt, there has to be some sort of compromise. especially if the self control to not keep ones foot out of it isnt there.