Autocross or Road Course

[T/A Addict]

I see quite a few posts for autocross events as compared to road course events. I would imagine this is due to the cost of setting up events and location availability. I can see how an autocross course can be set up in a large parking lot as where a road course would require a real track.

I think running a road course would be the biggest thrill but never see any postings for open tracks or events. I'd love to start getting my 2 young teen daughters into and excited about competing and racing.

How many of you actually get out and enjoy some course time be it autocross or road course and what are some of your biggest thrills doing it?

[silo84]

I try to do a couple of track days a year, I have recently gotten my wife involved sharing weekend driving time and she loves it.

I would say road course will get you more track time per weekend but it cost more (entrance fee ~500ish/ tires/ brakes )and your car will need to be better prepared (brakes and cooling) to make it through an event. typically you get 2hrs a day of track time at the track days that i have attended sometimes more depending on how many run groups the org chooses to run. usually a session last 20-30 minutes which is about all a "street car" will want.


Autocross will be cheaper but a lot less time behind the wheel. usually lasting under 1 min per run. I imagine 10 runs a day or less would be good general estimate for maximum track time for autocross.

I ran a small track event several years ago and advertised it here didn't get a lot of traction probably because of my location in no where Alabama.

Anyways there are websites that advertise both types of events. Hagerty recently purchased the one I frequent.

[Vimes]

If you really want to do road courses, just have to search them out. Here's a run-what-ya-brung one to start you off.

http://www.sscc.us/event_description.aspx

From the website - "For over the past three decades, driving enthusiasts from around the world have gathered on the third Sunday of May and September in the Nevada high desert for the running of two truly unique automotive events. Their amazing journey traverses 90 to 122 miles of closed, two-lane public highway, comprising of long fast straights, sweeping corners, blind dips, even carving through a twisty canyon. The current course record for the 90 miles stands at 219.6430 mph average speed, as recognized by the Guinness Book of World Records. The best part is, if you’ve got the nerve, a little cash, and a fast ride, you too can join them to run as fast as you can, legally, down a public highway."

That 90 mile record - that's 90 miles in under 25 minutes.

Disclaimer - people do both die and suffer life-altering injuries on this road course.

[Motobrewmaster]

I can only speak for road course time as I have not tried doing autocross yet. In full transparency I am originally a motorcycle road course guy. Used to club race for years, so now that I am old I instruct for a track day organization (bouncing hurts!). Well, that was until I decided to make my old high school Camaro handle better and brake better...well you know the drill.

So it was time to take the car out on the track. Even with all the track time I get every year (16+ days a year with the bikes alone), it was not in my comfort zone to take the car out on the track. That was until I did it, and it was amazing! So much fun that now I am a member at a private road course (https://clubmotorsports.com) just to get as much track time in as possible with two or four wheels.

You will not regret doing a track day. You will learn so much, and enjoy every minute of it. Remember that 90% of the people at the track are like you, they are completely into it. Leave your ego at home because you will learn much more if you do. There are some very talented instructors and drivers who are more than willing to share their knowledge. If you listen you will enjoy the day even more and improve your own skills. I could go on and on.

The bottom line is, DO IT! Sign up for a track day or autocross day and make it happen. The only thing you will hurt will be your wallet.

[srode]

I can only speak for road course time as I have not tried doing autocross yet. In full transparency I am originally a motorcycle road course guy. Used to club race for years, so now that I am old I instruct for a track day organization (bouncing hurts!). Well, that was until I decided to make my old high school Camaro handle better and brake better...well you know the drill.

So it was time to take the car out on the track. Even with all the track time I get every year (16+ days a year with the bikes alone), it was not in my comfort zone to take the car out on the track. That was until I did it, and it was amazing! So much fun that now I am a member at a private road course (https://clubmotorsports.com) just to get as much track time in as possible with two or four wheels.

You will not regret doing a track day. You will learn so much, and enjoy every minute of it. Remember that 90% of the people at the track are like you, they are completely into it. Leave your ego at home because you will learn much more if you do. There are some very talented instructors and drivers who are more than willing to share their knowledge. If you listen you will enjoy the day even more and improve your own skills. I could go on and on.

The bottom line is, DO IT! Sign up for a track day or autocross day and make it happen. The only thing you will hurt will be your wallet.your post has me looking forward to taking mine out on a track day when it's done. I used to race a motorcycle on road courses too, thats the most exciting thing I have ever done. Did it for 4 year starting around 1990 and quit after seeing a couple people die and a couple friends get maimed. I was going faster and faster taking more risks (which seemed quite prudent at the time) Figured I rolled the dice enough times it was time to give it up before I rolled craps.

I have a hard time seeing auto cross being as fun but I'm likely to try it as well as a road course. Just seems like you would never really get to run with hot tires autocrossing, guess if you used tire warmers maybe. Nothing like a high speed controlled drift on a long sweeper though!

[rickpaw]

I see quite a few posts for autocross events as compared to road course events. I would imagine this is due to the cost of setting up events and location availability. I can see how an autocross course can be set up in a large parking lot as where a road course would require a real track.

I think running a road course would be the biggest thrill but never see any postings for open tracks or events. I'd love to start getting my 2 young teen daughters into and excited about competing and racing.

How many of you actually get out and enjoy some course time be it autocross or road course and what are some of your biggest thrills doing it?

Keep an eye out for SCCA track night events near you. It's a good place to start out.

I've done autocross events (LS Fest/Optima) and felt I'd enjoyed track events more (disclaimer - I'm a full blown novice when it comes to track times)

[T/A Addict]

Awesome... Thanks for the great info guys! Track day would be a blast.

[short&wide65]

I autocross and I do track days/time attack as well, although with a much newer sports car as my pro touring project isn't close to done. Tracking a car on a regular basis isn't cheap and the best thing to spend money on is instruction as the learning curve for track driving is steeper. Both have their advantages and disadvantages and I find them both different, especially in terms of driving style. Autocross is more hectic and over quickly while track driving requires the utmost focus lap after lap and gentler inputs versus autocross. However, I'll probable never track my 65 GMC because I wouldn't take an older car/truck on the track without a roll bar in it and I don't plan to put one in my truck.

[justin51986]

The first track I want to run on when I finish my mustang is the Ozarks International Raceway. Looks like a blast.

[CarlC]

So it was time to take the car out on the track. Even with all the track time I get every year (16+ days a year with the bikes alone), it was not in my comfort zone to take the car out on the track. That was until I did it, and it was amazing! So much fun that now I am a member at a private road course (https://clubmotorsports.com) just to get as much track time in as possible with two or four wheels.

You will not regret doing a track day. You will learn so much, and enjoy every minute of it. Remember that 90% of the people at the track are like you, they are completely into it. Leave your ego at home because you will learn much more if you do. There are some very talented instructors and drivers who are more than willing to share their knowledge. If you listen you will enjoy the day even more and improve your own skills. I could go on and on.

The bottom line is, DO IT! Sign up for a track day or autocross day and make it happen. The only thing you will hurt will be your wallet.

This.

Many of us do open track/HPDE but just don't post online about it.

I enjoy road course more than AC, but I also don't spend enough time and effort to become more proficient. Both can be fun.

When I'm instructing novice drivers there is a very strong emphasis on leaving the ego at the entry gate. No matter how hard you try, some wicked-good driver will pass you in their ****-box Miata. In that light, follow and learn from them.

Take your time, be safe, don't hurt you or the car.

[T/A Addict]

The first track I want to run on when I finish my mustang is the Ozarks International Raceway. Looks like a blast.

Had never heard of that track. Watched a couple videos of it and it looks awesome... what a thrill of a lifetime that would be. It's close enough to me, being a little west of STL, to even make it happen!

[SSLance]

I use autocross to scratch my itch between the times I can run road courses. Like said above, road courses have much more seat time but are also much harder on the equipment and way more expensive overall.

Being "fast" at autocross is also a much more learned skill. It takes more practice and seat time than running pn s road course. Thus can be good or bad, depending on your prerogative.

[Motobrewmaster]

To add to what Lance said. Road course time definitely shakes down the car more. The nature of driving a car harder for a longer sustained amount of time is more demanding on the brakes, engine and all cooling systems. This however is a very good way to sort out all these systems on a car. There is a very rewarding feeling to have the confidence that your car can handle being driven hard for a solid 20 or more minutes, that is if you the driver can concentrate that long and stay focused for that amount of time too.

I would say that to really go fast on a road course is equally demanding as autocross. The first few seconds of a lap time can be cut off very easy usually. But to get those last few seconds off is VERY difficult! That said, this is also the challenge and the fun! If it was so easy it would not be so enticing.

Carl nailed it with his Miata comment. There are some very skilled drivers who can navigate a much less capable car around a track FAST! This comes down to the talent of the driver, track knowledge and comfort when getting closer to a vehicles limits. Most of us mortals have to develop these skills, they ARE NOT INATE! The very few people who can "just do it" at actual quick lap times are super rare! The rest of us need to learn these skills, then go out and practice them until they are muscle memory. Trust me when things start to go "wrong", you need to react naturally, quickly, smoothly and correctly. That is why you should ALWAYS drive no more than 80% when you are first driving on any road course. Good instructors and other drivers will explain this in great detail and for good reason.....pay attention!

Cheers, Steve

Just remember this is ALL about having fun. Unless you are getting paid to do it, making big smiles and great memories is the goal. When you drive home with a shiny car and worn tyres while planning the next time you can go to the track, you WON!

[NOT A TA]

Road course for me. Seat time is everything!

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[Smitham32803]

Doing a track day gets you the most time in your car to enjoy driving it at your limit.

If you want to get on a track i would start looking for HPDE (high performance drivers ed) events. These are usually put on by different groups like PCA, Chin, Drivers Edge, etc.. just look up HPDE. These events have several run groups and for beginners have classes and coaches to ride along and help. I have to say i was originally not into having someone in the car as i thought they would hold you back but it is just the opposite. These guys teach you how to go fast.

It is a bug as big is building cars that's for sure. I started with a couple HPDE events then ended up forming a team, building a car and then racing in the Champcar endurance series. I have almost 50 hours of wheel to wheel racing experience now.



I am bias but i think road racing is the best. Me and a couple friends have built a specific car just for racing

[TheJDMan]

Go to https://www.motorsportreg.com/ create an account and search for track events in your area. SCCA, NASA run track day events and most tracks also hold their own track days. I'm in Virginia and have attended track days at VIR, Summit Point and Dominion Raceway. All of these tracks host SCCA HPDE and Track Nights, NASA events as well as their own events.198119198118

[TheBandit]

I want to get on a track badly, but I have safety concerns. I'm not sure if it's even much riskier than street driving or going down the freeway, but I get nervous with the higher speeds and potential interactions with other cars. I've stuck to autocross so far, because the speeds are very low and the chance of anyone getting hurt is minimized. I think a cage and 5pt harnesses would allay my safety concerns for the track, but I street drive my car 99% of the time and I use the backseat about half the time for my kids, so for now I will stick to autocross and look on jealously at the guys that are having more fun and seat time on the road course.

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Wow she's beautiful

[Bruce1968]

I want to get on a track badly, but I have safety concerns. I'm not sure if it's even much riskier than street driving or going down the freeway, but I get nervous with the higher speeds and potential interactions with other cars. I've stuck to autocross so far, because the speeds are very low and the chance of anyone getting hurt is minimized. I think a cage and 5pt harnesses would allay my safety concerns for the track, but I street drive my car 99% of the time and I use the backseat about half the time for my kids, so for now I will stick to autocross and look on jealously at the guys that are having more fun and seat time on the road course.

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Wow she's beautiful

Being concerned about safety is a good idea, for sure. While I have not tracked my car, I do believe at most of these events there are process in place to manage traffic to greatly minimize the chance of an altercation. Yes, one car may overtake another but its done in a controlled fashion. You’re not out there going door to door. I’d also want a 5pt harness but I think a rollbar would be sufficient. Detroit Speed makes one where the cross bar for the harness is removable which is supposed to keep the back seat useable. It would not be NHRA legal like that but should work for the occasional track day. Also be nice in autox as you can get tossed around a bit and it will keep you planted in the seat better.

[TheJDMan]

Virtually all track days only allow cars on track in groups based on driver experience usually Novice, Intermediate and Advanced. A pass in any group is only allowed after the front car gives the overtaking car a point by and in Novice group passing is strictly limited to straightaways. I work at both Summit Point and Dominion Raceway as corner Marshall and/or on track recovery and I always tell new drivers in the driver meeting to only go as fast as you are comfortable. A track day is NOT a race it is supposed to be fun. But like anything there are always those who push too hard and they are the ones I usually have to go out on track and retrieve with the roll back. Here are a couple of examples of cars I picked up off the track. Track days can be a lot of fun but they can also be very expensive if you over drive your car. And just FYI, most comprehensive insurance does not pay for this kind of on track damage.

198144198145

[TheBandit]

Thanks Steve for explaining a bit more how things work on track days. It is encouraging to know traffic/passing is managed to avoid issues. Still I have a tendency to over drive my car when I lose my headspace, so when I do get out there I will have to really fight the urge to push it too hard and wad up the car.

[CSG]

I would not be concerned, unless you car oversteers. Most tracks have enough space to chase the car if it understeers as long as you aren’t driving we’ll beyond your limit, just take it easy and watch your mirrors. Don’t be the guy holding everyone up or you may get a pass that you don’t like.

[TheJDMan]

This is part of the problem, new HPDE drivers tend to feel pressure to go faster in order to not hold up cars behind which generally does not end well. But this is exactly why the passing rules are in place and so strictly enforced. You should not be rushed because someone behind wants around, but you also need to keep an eye on the rear mirror so you can give a point by at the earliest point you can on the track. Trust me, track personnel can see everything that is happening on track and if someone passes dangerously or if someone fails to give a point by they will be seen and black flagged to come to pit road and have a talk with a race official to go over the rules. If that driver continues to violate the rules they will be removed for the rest of the event. We have removed drivers from events for not giving point by's and also for passing in a no passing section so it goes both ways. Understand the event rules, follow the rules and there is little risk of an accident. Ignore the rules and at best you will be removed from the track and at worst your car could look like the ones I posted above. Safety First!

[srode]

Thanks Steve for explaining a bit more how things work on track days. It is encouraging to know traffic/passing is managed to avoid issues. Still I have a tendency to over drive my car when I lose my headspace, so when I do get out there I will have to really fight the urge to push it too hard and wad up the car.Yep, after hearing about how tracks are managed I would be more comfortable heading out to one. Now I just need to get my car done so I can go enjoy it.

[CarlC]

This is part of the problem, new HPDE drivers tend to feel pressure to go faster in order to not hold up cars behind which generally does not end well. But this is exactly why the passing rules are in place and so strictly enforced. You should not be rushed because someone behind wants around, but you also need to keep an eye on the rear mirror so you can give a point by at the earliest point you can on the track. Trust me, track personnel can see everything that is happening on track and if someone passes dangerously or if someone fails to give a point by they will be seen and black flagged to come to pit road and have a talk with a race official to go over the rules. If that driver continues to violate the rules they will be removed for the rest of the event. We have removed drivers from events for not giving point by's and also for passing in a no passing section so it goes both ways. Understand the event rules, follow the rules and there is little risk of an accident. Ignore the rules and at best you will be removed from the track and at worst your car could look like the ones I posted above. Safety First!

Exactly. Read, re-read, and read again. It's the don't do something stupid rule. It's also why there are usually several sessions for newbies in a lead-follow/ducks-in-a-row/instructor observer to see how folks are doing and to hand out appropriate slap-downs.

About a year ago I was observing a newbie group from The Balcony at Willow Springs. As the session ends, one guy peels off in a "modified" R8. He proceeds to use too much throttle, to many shifts, poor lines, etc. Typical new ego-driver in a car he "modified" that had never been on track before. Entering T4 there was no way he was going to make it. Ends up slamming the car into a dirt berm, busting up body work, wrecks both LH wheels, dirt shower for the interior, etc. Limped the car back to the pits where I later overheard him blame the car, that it was too fast, understeered, etc. to many different people. Blamed everyone but himself. These are the folks that cause track day issues, and the event organizers/instructors want them out. It's best to avoid them on track, and tell track officials of their shenanigans.

[justin51986]

Had never heard of that track. Watched a couple videos of it and it looks awesome... what a thrill of a lifetime that would be. It's close enough to me, being a little west of STL, to even make it happen!


It's brand new. I believe they are actually still finishing it up.

[TheJDMan]

I know this is an older thread but as covid is in the rear view mirror and people are resuming their lives and activities we have seen a large increase in participant counts at our HPDE events. So much so that we have started running two Novus groups at each event and assigning our driving instructors two students each. All of the things that have been discussed earlier in this thread are still relevant and even more important for everyone to remember as car counts increase. I have not had the opportunity to take Dust Off out to an HPDE for at least three years now since I am working these events nearly every weekend during the season. As more drivers get involved my crew and I find we have to be ever more vigilant about safety. So with that in mind I have put together a short list of things that you should check before arriving at the track and keep in mind while at the track for your first HPDE.

1. Helmet. Generally speaking a "DOT" rated helmet is not accepted at most tracks. You should have a Snell "SA" rated helmet of the proper year, ie 2020 or 2015 some tracks allow older.
2. Tires. Make sure that your tires are properly inflated and have sufficient tread. I have seen people run tires off the bead due to under inflation. I have also seen people show up with cords showing on their tires. Not good.
3. Brakes. It doesn't take a genius to know that your car has to stop when you apply the brakes but yet we see people all the time with marginal brakes. Seems people tend to pay a lot of attention to going fast and give little thought to how they plan to stop all that mass.
4. Tow hook. This is one of my most common peeves with respect to track cars. Don't assume your car will never need to be flat towed off the track, it will happen and you need to have a proper tow point installed. Some cars such as Corvettes have no way to tow them if the tow eye is not installed. Avoid damage to your car and install a tow hook.
5. Gas. I know this sounds silly but you will burn more gas than you might think during a track day. Don't be that guy and run out of gas on track because that is when you will see me tow you back to the pits. We call it the tow of shame.
6. Know your limits. A track day is NOT a race and no one cares how impressive fast you drive. But everyone will notice if you over drive your car and crash. Which reminds me of something else. Track Day insurance.
7. Track day Insurance. If you wreck your car on a race track do not expect your domestic insurance policy to pay for anything. You will likely be paying for repairs out of your pocket unless you buy a daily policy specifically covering damage happening during a track day.
8. Listen. Every track event will be preceded by a driver meeting. We give you important information in those meeting and yet I always see people talking at the back of the room. Ironically, those same people are usually the ones who cause a problem or break some rule.
9. Stay in Your Car. If your cars stops for any reason while on track pull off to the side as far as possible out of the way of overtaking cars. Stay in your car unless it is on fire. You are protected in the car in case some one were you hit you before the flags are deployed.

These are just some thoughts that come to mind. Don't be afraid to enter a track day event just follow instructions and don't drive beyond you or your cars ability.

If you have any specific questions about Track Days just ask, there are a lot of very knowledgeable people here and we all want to see everyone have a fun, safe experience.

[landpilot]

Steve, i just wanted to say thanks for all the advice, very much appreciated! I've never done a HPDE track day, only autocross, but plan on it soon. Any advice on vehicle prep for road race vs. autocross?

[Pedigry]

Brakes and tires, brakes and tires. lol. I remember the first time I cooked my brake fluid and lost my brakes at the end of a long straight, pretty scary. I am sure there is a prep list available on the web somewhere but road courses will test every part of your car. Cooling is also a huge one. Make sure you have way more radiator than you think you need. Also a good deep pan, the G's you pull will push all the oil in your motor to one side, you can starve an engine pretty easily. Start with a full bleed of your brake system with some really good, high temp fluid. Make sure your tires don't have too many heat cycles on them or they will be a limiting factor and make sure your radiator is up to snuff. After that, the track will show you your weak points.

Guys complain about their seats often, great for the street but lousy for the track. If you have to spend the whole time with your left leg trying to keep you in your seat then you will get tired fast and it's miserable. Get a really good seat if your going to track alot. There's a million other things but those are the major ones I can think of. But it's a blast. You will become a significantly better driver and it really does change how you drive on the street. Get out there and do you it, you will be hooked.

Almost forgot, spend as much time as you can with an instructor or friend that has experience. Learn the lines of the course, brake zones, corner speeds, apexes, etc.

[Jay71]

Great information in this thread! This is something I’ve always wanted to do, unfortunately the nearest track is over 500 miles from me. Some day I’ll get it done.

[Pedigry]

I used to run at Gratton raceway, just outside Grand Rapids, Michigan. It's a fantastic course. back when I raced there, they had a no passing run save for the straights. Yes, people would get a bit bunched up in the corners, but everyone still had a ton of fun and it was very safe. Passing on the straights was easy, most guys would put their hand out the window and wave you by. I liked that kind of racing, especially when I first started out. If you ever get a chance to do a day at Gratton, don't pass it up. It's a beautiful course.

[Kowalski340]

I for one see the advantages of autocross but for lack of a better phrase I grew out of it years and years ago. Now it's only time attack and open track days for me. I will still participate in an autocross if I'm there and it's feasible but I don't go out of my way to find autox anymore. Plus I get lost on autox tracks.

[Olds.PhD]

Old thread, but I'll throw in my $.02.

To each their own. I prefer autocross for my Cutlass. Car isn't set up to do 20 minute sessions flat out at high speeds around a track and, frankly, isn't safe to do so either (50 year old car definitely needs a cage to be pushing that hard and I drive it too much on the street for that to be worthwhile). I can push the car to and beyond the limit in autocross without risk to me, the car, or the mechanicals and it still gives me more quantity and quality of seat time than drag racing. My local SCCA group is pretty awesome too. Lots of CAM participation (including some nationally competitive guys/cars) AND we have some retired professional road race guys who show up to every event.

[Pedigry]

I love the road course. It's a great way to sort out your car. If there is a weak point, the track will find it. That and autocross are obviously very different, to each his own. Autocross is certainly more accessable, which is a pretty big determaning factor. It's also less expensive, which is another bonus. All of the tracks that I have run were always very well managed. Mostly I ran at Gratton raceway just outside Grand Rapids, Michigan. The events I attended had a "only pass on the straight" rule. It made for very safe racing and we rarely had issues. If you ever get a chance to run at a road course you will love it. Get some instruction at the track and have a ball.