AGR vs. DSE 600 vs. Flaming River Steering Box

[Rick Giles]

Just wondering what the differences are between the AGR, DSE 600 and Flaming River steering box. Do they all feel like rack and pinion steering with a tight new car feel. And does each need a different rag joint from stock and different hose fittings for power steering?

[alfex]

I was wondering the same exact thing. Anyone out there know the difference? I called both Flaming River and AGR, and although AGR was more polite, neither company seemed to have any definitive selling points over the other...(except for Flaming River's polished finish).

I was surprised about this. I expected Flaming River to be roaring to go with all the data on why I should buy their product over AGR. Nope. I also asked them about the road feel of their steering boxes (12:1 ratio) and they told me that their customers report a good feel with a quick response. However that didnt tell me much. What is good? Quick? My race kart has an extremely quick steering ratio...but that doesnt really define feel in my book. I didnt want to be a pain, so I just said thanks a lot and hung up, but my questions remain unanswered and I've got so many other things to do to my car than drop 450 on nothing more than a "quick" version of my stock box.

Now I'm reading about the ATS 670?
Anyone know about this?

[aonghus]

I have an AGR 12:1 Box, its a stock rebuilt saginaw steering box, out of god knows what, but it has a billet worm gear and knuckle, (if my memory suits me right) It weighs a god awful 40lbs, but feels fantastic, and is bullet proof.

I don't know off the top of my head the lock-to-lock number of turns for the steering wheel, I don't have a quantifiable answer for effort or feel. I will say, it feels nearly identical to my brothers '99 Maxima (R&P), only on a 38 year old car. I'm happy, my original box was a far cry from the AGR unit. The AGR uses the stock rag joint.

I beleive with the DSE box you can run it power or mannual, you do need a different steering coupler, you pay more, and it supposedly feels identical to a R&P. Don't know anything about the flaming river...

I wil say, I don't care what the hell a R&P feels like, I'm not putting a R&P in my car, I do care that the car is easier to drive, and that I have a new part in my car, not something with 20 degrees of slop in the wheel. My AGR cost me $359 from summit.

As for ATS, Good luck finding reliable information, while I'm sure Tyler & company will put out a fantastic product, they cannot seem to get their act togeather with a clear concise UP TO DATE website. The ATS box is not even mentioned on their site, and the only data I've come across reagarding the ATS 670 box is that it is 'far superior to any other unit availble'

which agian, doesnt tell us much.

[Blown353]

I recently installed a DSE600 box and am very happy with the weight and feel of the steering; I can't offer much more than that as steering "feel" is a very subjective preference. All I can say is that it's a good weight and allows good feedback without being "mushy" and over-assisted.

Remember though that the steering box feel is only half the game; the amount of slop and overall performance of the system is determined by the quality and condition of the rest of the components in the steering system (steering shaft and joints, then the pitman arm, idler arm, drag link, tie rods.) If they're worn then even the best box will feel "sloppy" through the steering wheel. This is where rack and pinion has an edge-- there are less pivot points to wear/flex/develop slop. A well-maintained box/linkage setup can still be quite good though.

With all new steering components and needle bearing u-joints on my steering shaft instead of the factory rag joint, my steering is very precise and slop-free. Changing the steering shaft from the factory rag joint to the u-joints made a pretty dramatic difference.

Troy

[chicane67]

...

[alky]

Chicane67,
Sounds like a very nice box. Do you have pricing and availability of the 670 Box and rag joint? 1969 camaro

Thanks
Denny

[sinned]

The 670 box is what was copied by Delphi to be used as an OE steering gear by the big three. In fact, it was originally sought after by Dalmer Chrysler from Tom Lee (of Lee Power Steering) which he then built three boxes for DC. DC then took it to Delphi and asked them to copy it for the newest platforms........ now DC, Ford and GM use the copied version of Tom Lee's box....... which is not an identical copy, but close. If you have driven a late model truck from DC, Ford or GM.... you can get a sort of idea of what they might feel like.
Hey Tom, exactly which DC vehicles have this box? The WJ platform was the last vehicle made by DCX utilizing a conventional steering box and they haven't built one of those in 2 model years, the prior years were Saginaw. The BR truck (last built in 2003) also used a Saginaw box. The DN/AN platform switched from Saginaw boxes to TRW racks in 2000 (running change). Just curious what your source for information was.



I’ll have to check a truck at work tomorrow, I’m pretty sure all our F series rigs are running Saginaw boxes too.

[protour_chevelle]

Please excuse ATS for being busy. We are doing what really mattters (like paying attention to QA, performing proper testing and making necessary improvements to the products we provide) and do not consider ourselves to be the bling blingyness of the internet commerce/industry with the spanky web page. That, will be comming soon enough....

Your right, priorities should be set on producing an awesome product but thats not the whole thing towards running a business(which you know). I do the vast majority of my shopping online(and so do millions of others, technology is here to stay) because by the time I can pick up the phone the shop is closed(because I'm just getting home from school/work), I'm not willing to foot the long distance call either because everyone knows that they can get lengthy.

Has ATS thought about a Toll Free Line? Are you guys willing to call the person back and foot the long distance bill?

When will we see pricing on the box?

-Matt

[MarkM66]

Good thread, and I'm looking forward to hearing more info.

I'm using a box out of a 3rd gen F-body Iroc, which was suppose to have a good firm feel to it. I either got a box that was rebuilt wrong, or my impression of a firm feel is different from others. I don't think it's any firmer then a typical one finger turning stocker. Not impressed, and it might have to go.

[alky]

Just spoke to ATS,
670 power steering gear boxw/ zinc coating is $515 with a 1 week delivery time. New rag joint is $79.

[wickedmotorhead]

I thought I'd jump in here and clear up a few things.

First off the 600 "series" boxes (or style) all basically originated from some of the OE applications that Tom (chicane) was talking about . Tom Lee of Lee MFG has been working with steering boxes since 1967. He's the guy that was building 100% of all Nascar steering boxes back in 1989. Well, Lee basically took the OE box to Delphi with some engineers to build a box that could be retrofitted to the early style bolt pattern and spline since it had the rack and pinion valve technology. This was accomplished and nascar along with the aftermarket had a better feeling box that could be bought new and the old worn boxes no longer had to be rebuilt. This particular box the 670 (or as others call the 600) which refers to the bore size in mm, is NOT an OE available box but originated from one.

Our boxes are built specifically for us with Lee's recommended valving based on his extensive experience. Each box is a brand new box REBUILT not just sold as is from Delphi (of which he has returned many). They are initially built on an union run assembly line quickly, which is unsatifactory for Lee. Each one is completely taken apart, re-honed, blueprinted, dynoed, cleaned, and finished in a nice zinc plating. These are not like the AGR boxes that are rebuilt used boxes. These are race proven precision boxes.

The other features are the same as the DSE box.
12.7:1 Steering ratio
6 lbs lighter than stock
will require a 30-3/4" spline rag joint for the factory steering column
Accepts factory power pitman arm (can provide as well)

As for the website and toll free number...Im not sure if many of you know but we are literally only a two man team me and Tyler with a new company. I've only been here a year pretty much as of today. Tom has his own full time job and stops by every now and then to lend a hand hence he may not always have the latest information on ATS products such as pricing. We try to do everything we can in house including ads, sales, catalogs, paperwork, R&D, customers cars and fabrication, engineering, and so on. We like it that way because then it gets done right. Basically all the new products we have have been developed in the last year. Just give us a month or two to catch up and we'll give you your pretty and up to date website. Toll free number...well if you want we'll call you back for now. Here's a pic for now and please call if you have any questions, me or Tyler will be glad to talk to you.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://img439.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0104060063jq.jpg)

[David Pozzi]

I've got an 800 box rebuilt by Lee, but I'm thinking of buying one of the ATS boxes for my 67 Camaro, I can use the 800 box on my 69 racer.

You guys are coming up with some good parts! :twothumbs

[BonzoHansen]

I'm using a box out of a 3rd gen F-body Iroc, which was suppose to have a good firm feel to it. I either got a box that was rebuilt wrong, or my impression of a firm feel is different from others. I don't think it's any firmer then a typical one finger turning stocker. Not impressed, and it might have to go.Now I am worried about the WS6 box I have waiting to go in the 77 before spring.

[protour_chevelle]

Thanks for the professional and info filled reply! The only thing that rubs me wrong is this...

Oh yeah..... did I mention that the 670 box is cheaper than the other two mentioned sources ??

My AGR cost me $359 from summit.

I've got so many other things to do to my car than drop 450 on nothing more than a "quick" version of my stock box.

Those are the only prices listed in this thread...

Just spoke to ATS,
670 power steering gear boxw/ zinc coating is $515 with a 1 week delivery time. New rag joint is $79.

Something doesn't add up here.

Maybe I'm reading this wrong? If I did please let me know

-Matt

[wickedmotorhead]

Matt,

As I said...

Tom has his own full time job and stops by every now and then to lend a hand hence he may not always have the latest information on ATS products such as pricing

I stated the facts against the other rebuilt boxes (such as AGR and Flaming River)...new, blueprinted, and rack and pinion valving technology. Obviously you pay for what you get here. I am not stating how to spend your money, just laying out the facts so you can make your own decisions.

[alfex]

Well when I used 450 dollars I was using a ballpark number between AGR and Flaming River...plus shipping etc... but I have to say...this is a great thread and I'll be placing my order to ATS this week.

Guys...I own my own business and have a full time job and I'm sure we all know what its like to not have enough hours in a day. I agree ATS REALLY needs to take a hard look at their web presence. I think as enthusiasts we're not really raggin on you ATS; but we are all investing loads of money and time into something that we love. We're all striving to use the best parts possible and interestingly enough we're helping each other on the forums while we're subconsciously trying to outdo one another...but all in good fun for the love of the craft!

At the same time we have to respect ATS and their commitment to excellence. If we wanted crappy cars made of crappy parts we wouldnt be doing this!

I'm only bringing this up because where would our sport be without Mr Gasket? or Moroso? or Edelbrock?...the list goes on...and I'm sure it would be EASIER for ATS to lock their doors and tell us to build our own doggone parts. Not for nothing but I was pretty good in my engineering classes in high school and college but when it came down to deciding which business to start...i didnt have the balls to do what ATS is attempting!

Cause when you really think about it we're all the same bunch o nutjobs! busted knuckles greasy fingernails and all!

[chicane67]

Me.... I dont know anything. So from now on, dont quote anything I have ever stated.

This will be the beginning of my PT resignation.

[Damn True]

Me.... I dont know anything. So from now on, dont quote anything I have ever stated.

This will be the beginning of my PT resignation.



Don't go. All the plants will die!

[protour_chevelle]

Me.... I dont know anything. So from now on, dont quote anything I have ever stated.

This will be the beginning of my PT resignation.

It's not that way at all. Call me whatever you want if it makes you feel better. Maybe I'm just a little short with my attitude seeing how I've been ****ed over several hundred for shipping screw ups and company screw ups. Several hundred doesn't sound like much but when your in highschool, it sure is a lot.

I'm sorry for the feelings I presented towards you Tyler. :bananna2:

-Matt

[protour_chevelle]

Matt,

As I said...


I stated the facts against the other rebuilt boxes (such as AGR and Flaming River)...new, blueprinted, and rack and pinion valving technology. Obviously you pay for what you get here. I am not stating how to spend your money, just laying out the facts so you can make your own decisions.

Fair enough :angel:

No hard feelings?

-Matt

[TitoJones]

I'm sorry for the feelings I presented towards you Tyler. :bananna2:

-Matt

You didn't direct that at me, you directed it at my good friend Tom. I think he is just a little stressed out with the work load he currently has, and getting used to living with his lovely new wife. He'll be back sooner than later.

Tyler

[protour_chevelle]

You didn't direct that at me, you directed it at my good friend Tom. I think he is just a little stressed out with the work load he currently has, and getting used to living with his lovely new wife. He'll be back sooner than later.

Tyler

Oops, getting names mixed up here.

-Matt

[importkiller69ss]

all i know is that ill be placing my order on the afx 670 box real soon very nice product

[PAI Racing]

If it helps, I have a Flaming River manual box and it is a steaming pile of crap. I sent it back so they could "adjust it" and it came back... you guessed it, a steaming pile of crap!

I use mine in a race car. All heim joint links in the front and a splined universal in place of a rag joint. The box is sloppy and makes it very easy to get behind on one's steering and very hard to go fast without losing the car.

I bought an AGR box, but it is just too dang heavy.

Hope that helps!

[alfex]

Great! Now thats what this site is all about! If it's junk send 'em back to the drawing board! And if its top notch engineering...get out your credit card!

Thanks for the feedback

[Rick Giles]

Thanks guys. Thats alot of good feedback along with alot of good poking fun! Is anyone using and liking the AGR 12:1 or 16/13:1 box?

[YankeeWhite]

This might be a stupid question, but could this style of box, the ATS one in particular, but used in place of an older 605?
I have a '64 Impala and would like to upgrade.
How are the mounting holes, Four right? I'm thinking of maybe needing a new plate for the frame to pull this off.
Any ideas?

[TitoJones]

YankeeWhite-
Our 670 box will only work in place of an old 800 box, not a 605 on the Impalas. Sorry about that.

Tyler