Custom Modular Spindles: Aluminum Parts

[CTX-SLPR]

Howdy,

Continuing to putz around with my custom suspension redo for my '64 Riviera in the evenings when working in the garage is off the table but there's some time for design work. This is a 95+% street car that weigh in at 4000lbs or so dry. I want it to handle akin to the final generations of BMW/Mercedes full sized cars (i.e. 7 or 8-series or S or CL-classe) before they moved into active or air suspensions while being durable for a driving it 5-6K miles a year on California's roads.

The upright part of the spindle is going to be full custom out of 0.75in steel plate with bolt on bits for the ball joint mounts and the steering arm. Will Aluminum hold up in this application? Found ready made parts on Coleman Racing (http://www.colemanracing.com/Spindle-Assembly-Modular-Wide-5-And-5-x-5--P4710.aspx) but they're Al and not sure if they'll hold up on a heavy street car.

Thanks

[ProTouring442]

Why not buy a 7 series and plop the Buick body on the BMW platform?

[CTX-SLPR]

Why not buy a 7 series and plop the Buick body on the BMW platform?Mainly because it'd be a ton of work that would leave me with a less valuable car at the end of it having cut up the original frame to graft E38 or W140 subframes onto it. Also it take up way more space and requires way more jigs and other things to do properly vs. just building new control arms and spindles. I have looked into using spindles off of other vehicles (specifically stuff like C4/5/6 Corvettes and Crown Vics) but the geometry comes off better than original but not as good as it could be within the limits of the frame side mounts.

Anyone have thoughts on the aluminum parts on the street vs. either having Coleman carve them out of steel or doing it myself (water jet shop the blanks and then machine the features myself)?

[67-LS1]

Are you piecing this suspension together from multiple manufactures? You can get the kind of handling your looking for with a matched suspension kit from a variety of manufactures.

[CTX-SLPR]

Are you piecing this suspension together from multiple manufactures? You can get the kind of handling your looking for with a matched suspension kit from a variety of manufactures.Find me a kit for a 63-65 (or even 66-70) Riviera. I pretty much have to fabricate or piece stuff together for this car as other than stuff like wheel bearings and the upper ball joints, there is basically nothing shared even with an Impala in the suspension.

[ProTouring442]

Mainly because it'd be a ton of work that would leave me with a less valuable car at the end of it having cut up the original frame to graft E38 or W140 subframes onto it. Also it take up way more space and requires way more jigs and other things to do properly vs. just building new control arms and spindles. I have looked into using spindles off of other vehicles (specifically stuff like C4/5/6 Corvettes and Crown Vics) but the geometry comes off better than original but not as good as it could be within the limits of the frame side mounts.

Anyone have thoughts on the aluminum parts on the street vs. either having Coleman carve them out of steel or doing it myself (water jet shop the blanks and then machine the features myself)?


I wasn't thinking of grafting anything to the Buick frame. I was thinking along the lines of removing all but the platform from the BMW 7 series and the floor from the Buick and going from there. No jigs required, but definitely a lot of work.

As for value, a well designed, modified car, will bring a good bit of coin, though no one builds a car to make money.

As for handling, you're not going to get modern BMW ride and handling from that frame, no matter what you adapt to it. You're going to need more than just spindles to correct the geometry of the front suspension, and the rear, offset upper arm three link isn't exactly known for its handling prowess.

Have you considered a chassis swap? Roadster Shop makes a great frame.

[67-LS1]

Yikes. Your right. I was thinking of just about every Chevy ever made.
I’m out of ideas.

[CTX-SLPR]

I wasn't thinking of grafting anything to the Buick frame. I was thinking along the lines of removing all but the platform from the BMW 7 series and the floor from the Buick and going from there. No jigs required, but definitely a lot of work.

As for value, a well designed, modified car, will bring a good bit of coin, though no one builds a car to make money.

As for handling, you're not going to get modern BMW ride and handling from that frame, no matter what you adapt to it. You're going to need more than just spindles to correct the geometry of the front suspension, and the rear, offset upper arm three link isn't exactly known for its handling prowess.

Have you considered a chassis swap? Roadster Shop makes a great frame.I'm going to say that's beyond my willingness to invest in the car but your point is well taken on the swap. I'd disagree on the "no jigs required" part but that's a minor point in the scale of the work involved.
I'm not really doing this to make money, more as a hedge if I'm ever in financial straights that I can no longer afford this hobby so need to sell it. More value in a solid and restorable Riviera than a fully customized one with how far I can take it.

Oh I'm taking it far beyond just spindles, new control arms, revised upper mount angles, a mono-ball type strut rod, widened track with more modern king pin angles and scrub radius. Ultimately the spindle is the least adjustable part of the system as the rest is largely adjustable swaged rods and the like so I'm looking at optimizing the construction process with what can I buy off of the shelf towards that goal as just a reamer for the balljoints and tierod ends is about the same as a pair of the upper mounts. The rear is going to be Nissan/Infinity Q45 IRS that I'm about to pull as it's self contained with only 4 mounting points and the links are available in adjustable units as they are shared with pretty much the rest of the Nissan RWD lineup such as the Z, 240SX, and even the Skyline in various forms.

[ProTouring442]

I'm going to say that's beyond my willingness to invest in the car but your point is well taken on the swap. I'd disagree on the "no jigs required" part but that's a minor point in the scale of the work involved.
I'm not really doing this to make money, more as a hedge if I'm ever in financial straights that I can no longer afford this hobby so need to sell it. More value in a solid and restorable Riviera than a fully customized one with how far I can take it.

Oh I'm taking it far beyond just spindles, new control arms, revised upper mount angles, a mono-ball type strut rod, widened track with more modern king pin angles and scrub radius. Ultimately the spindle is the least adjustable part of the system as the rest is largely adjustable swaged rods and the like so I'm looking at optimizing the construction process with what can I buy off of the shelf towards that goal as just a reamer for the balljoints and tierod ends is about the same as a pair of the upper mounts. The rear is going to be Nissan/Infinity Q45 IRS that I'm about to pull as it's self contained with only 4 mounting points and the links are available in adjustable units as they are shared with pretty much the rest of the Nissan RWD lineup such as the Z, 240SX, and even the Skyline in various forms.


Have you taken a look at the Ford Crown Vic front suspension?

189250

[CTX-SLPR]

Have you taken a look at the Ford Crown Vic front suspension?

189250Considered, yes. Again not something that will work without cutting the frame up rather significantly.
189265
The engine might be different but the oil pan sump is in the same place and I'm not cutting out that center cross member.

[ProTouring442]

Considered, yes. Again not something that will work without cutting the frame up rather significantly.

The engine might be different but the oil pan sump is in the same place and I'm not cutting out that center cross member.

I get it, but I think you're going to have a lot of trouble getting what you want out of the factory, rear-steer, zero aftermarket support, suspension.

My bet is, you have a positive camber curve (wheel cambers the opposite of what you need). If so, you need a taller spindle, but you'll need to redesign your upper control arm.

Does anyone make a quicker ratio steering box for it?

You can go with some sort of performance bushing on the lower arm and on the uppers, but the strut rod will need to stay rubber as it's length needs to change as the suspension raises and lowers.

Roadster Shop frame?

[mikedc]

My offhand suggestion:

1. Find another intact usable Buick frame like yours.

2. Modify the living crap out of that one. Do anything you want that clears the rest of the car's sheetmetal.

3. Swap that modded frame under the car and run it. Store the original frame at home.


Buying another frame and storing your original one is a big expensive step. But compared to the other ideas you are batting around it doesn't sound too bad. And this one is 100% reversible.

[CTX-SLPR]

It's an early standard Saginaw box that I had rebuilt by Lee about 12yrs ago with a quicker ratio and a tighter spool valve. Other than the old bias ply oriented scrub radius making the turning radius hideously large with the tires hitting the frame, it's a very pleasant ratio and feel. The current camber curve is positive and terrible, hence the taller spindles, and yes the upper control arms are going to be new as is the frame side pivot points. Right now the pivot points are steel on steel where the inserts into the arms are actually threaded onto the cross shaft. I'm going to change that to some form of joint so the Afco tubular upper arms can change length to fit the available geometry best without having to constantly remachine the upper cross arms to change the included angle.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2021/06/91034392_L_43982fa28abb40db9555c3ca5234b-1.jpg
This style of arm.

This brings me neatly back to my original question. By going with the AFCO threaded ball joint rings I can use standard K272 and K727 ball joints, I now need a new ball joint mounts for this:
189428189429
And the Al Coleman Racing parts make life slightly simpler with off the shelf parts vs. having to have them water jet cut then fixture them in my mill and machine the 3D features and ream the holes to final dimensions and tapers.