PDA

View Full Version : Lets talk fire suppression systems !



datsbad
12-23-2005, 11:50 AM
I am looking into possibly putting a fire system into FUEL . Anyone that knows anything about the specifics would be nice . It is to my understanding they are only desingned to protect you and not the car . I however would like it to do both . Is it wise to put nozzles inside the car and in the engine compartment also . I beleive that about 90% of all fire seem to start in the engine comparment ?

Any specific brand anyone would prefer? Thanks Jason

Travis B
12-23-2005, 11:53 AM
I know Bob johnson cuda is getting a fire system....try pm'ing htrdbldr(alan johnson) he should know the in and outs of what he is putting in the cuda!

RaceMan
12-23-2005, 01:27 PM
first you want it to get you , second the engine compartment usually on the fuel pump side or at the back of the engine compatment near the middle so it will cover the whole engine . We always have a third one in the fuel compartment or somewhere so it will cover the fuel cell or gas tank. Most systems will help put out a fire or atleast give you some more time to get out , its a good idea to carry a small extiguisher in the trunk or somewhere so you don't have to use your system if its a small fire
Good luck .FIRE BOTTLE is the brand we use and have had good luck so far:candle:

David Pozzi
12-23-2005, 07:37 PM
It's a good idea.
My race car system has two outlets, one on me, the other on the fuel pumps.
It has a spring loaded manual pull cable. This type is more easily serviced by local vendors. There are electric type with explosive charges but they have to be sent back to the mfr to be refilled.
Halon is great if you can still find it. Funny thing is, the NASCAR guys almost never trigger their systems, they spend all their energy getting OUT of the car.

datsbad
12-24-2005, 08:36 AM
Summit Racing sells a holan kit . did you see it ? Seems reasonable?

derekf
12-28-2005, 04:51 AM
Halon is great, with a couple of caveats:

1. If you spray halon in a running motor, the halon will remove ALL of the oxygen leaving you with a motor running impossibly lean, and probably junking it in the process.

2. If you spray halon in the cab, the halon will remove ALL of the oxygen from the cab leaving you with nothing to breathe, leaving you running rather lean and possibly junking you in the process.

3. My understanding is that production of Halon has ceased, so you may end up with a system you cannot refill.

Number 1 can be worked around by linking the ignition to the halon so that the ignition shuts off when you trigger the system; number 2 can be worked around by taking a deep breath before triggering, but number three doesn't really have a good workaround.

CarlC
12-28-2005, 11:57 AM
Without oxygen, how does the engine run? Too much oxidider and not enough fuel is lean. Without an oxidizer to promote commbustion the engine should stop running.

David Pozzi
12-28-2005, 08:37 PM
There are two main types of Halon, 1211 and 1301. the 1301 is supposed to be "breatheable", and is recommended for airplane use. The Lola I race is an open car, so I figure it isn't going to be too much of a concentration for too long especially at head level, the outlet is at knee level, under the dash.

Halon is being recycled from older systems. It was installed for use in Kitchen fire suppression systems, and factory or warehouse use, and supplied by tanks of the stuff into pipes with sprinkler nozzles triggered by heat. Eventually supplies will run out and other options will have to be explored. BUT my Halon system is over 10 years old and hasn't been triggered yet, probably never will if I'm lucky. The point is, the system isn't going to be triggered very often. A dry chem type extinuisher needs to be serviced every year to to powder caking. The halon systems just need to weigh the cylinder to see that it's full.

You can buy small bottles with one nozzle to put over your car in the garage or trailer for automatic triggering.

The Halon can be triggered and it won't impair vision like powder types. There are now Halon substitutes that are wet foam type mixes.

Here is the brand I have. http://www.firebottleracing.com/

Steve Chryssos
12-29-2005, 07:59 AM
I have a Safety Systems Firebottle in my car. One nozzle directed at both driver and passenger. Pull pin located in the stock cigarette lighter location. Screw the car! If things get ugly I want as much time as possible to get out. So the entire bottle's volume is directed for human protection. If you want to save the car as well, realize that you will need to plan for a lot of bottle volume.

NOTE also that there are TWO pins. The main pull pin (remote operated by cable) and the safety pin (located at the bottle). So presumably, the firebottle is of little use to you on the street since you will drive around with the safety pin in place. Then, at the track, you would remove the safety pin and rely on the pull pin in the event of a fire. Don't think so much about saving the car. Concentrate on saving your ass.

Safety Systems is the way to go. Donnie Skaggs knows his business. Summit is in the business of shipping boxes--not saving lives.


Another Tip: If you are thinking about fire suppression, you should also pay attention to the use of an electric fuel pump. When your car is on its roof and you are on fire, an electric fuel pump is your worst enemy.
If it's carbureted, use a traditional pushrod style pump such as the new Racepump from Stewart Development.
If it's fuel injected, call Sid. http://www.watermanracing.com/remote_mount_cable_drive.htm

RaceMan
12-29-2005, 08:24 AM
we run an oil pressure switch that shuts off an electric fuel pump when there is no oil pressure its a good idea for anyone with an electric pump I've seen some little fires become very scary because no one shut the pump off

David Pozzi
12-31-2005, 11:33 PM
Steve,
Mine has the pin on the bottle which I allways leave out. It is just for use when the cable is removed, with cable removed the pin keeps the bottle from firing.

My cable pull knob has a pin that I install when off the track. But I have been leaving the pin out of the knob this year since I tend to forget to remove it when going on track. I have a new HANS head restraint, and the extra distraction hooking it up has made me forget to pull the Fire Extinguisher pin.

Steve Chryssos
01-03-2006, 01:58 PM
Steve,
Mine has the pin on the bottle which I allways leave out. It is just for use when the cable is removed, with cable removed the pin keeps the bottle from firing.

My cable pull knob has a pin that I install when off the track. But I have been leaving the pin out of the knob this year since I tend to forget to remove it when going on track. I have a new HANS head restraint, and the extra distraction hooking it up has made me forget to pull the Fire Extinguisher pin.

On your race car. Agreed. No safety pins at the track. I'm saying that on the street, I keep both safety pins in place otherwise someone-- probably-my-sister in law (who we affectionately refer to as "Magoo" and "Calamity Annie") would certainly pull on the damn T handle.

Damn True
01-03-2006, 02:34 PM
On your race car. Agreed. No safety pins at the track. I'm saying that on the street, I keep both safety pins in place otherwise someone-- probably-my-sister in law (who we affectionately refer to as "Magoo" and "Calamity Annie") would certainly pull on the damn T handle.



Oh gawd...I can picture this. Steve and the aforementioned "Calamity Annie" pull into a bank so Steve-o can grab some cash from the ATM. Steve gets out, Annie gets bored...."Hmmm, what's this do?"

BOOOOMWOOOOSH!

David Pozzi
01-03-2006, 07:42 PM
I was asked to drive my friend's Lola T-70 up to the tech line from his pit. He plugged in the battery cart while I started it up. For some reason, he armed the on-board fire sytem. When he got things ready, he said "OK, FIRE it up! For some reason I poked the FIRE button instead of the START button next to it. It was the electric triggered type and I had to just sit there while it completely discharged, no ill effects at all, nice sunny day with no wind. I wish he'd said "OK, START it up", instead of "FIRE it up".

Steve, good thought about preventing unwanted triggering of the bottle.

Maybe you should handcuff your passengers? :guilty:

mpozzi
01-04-2006, 08:33 PM
It was pretty funny . . . :hammer:

Jewce
01-06-2006, 05:18 PM
I was heavily involved in setting up the fire system in the Viper Comp Coupe. We used the SPA Technique Firefighter system with 4 liters of AFFF (aqueous film forming foam). The system was fully certified by a rep of SPA that flew over from Europe just to witness the test. It has 2 in the engine compartment shooting down the fuel rails, 2 behind the bulkhead shooting over the fuel cell, and 1 on each side of the dash shooting at the occupants waist. The nozzles have about a 90 degree pattern, so it will wet the person completely up to the neck allowing full vision to get out. Even with 6 nozzles, it is good for about 25 seconds of protection.

The AFFF is MUCH better than halon. It fully wets the surface to keep the fire from reigniting after putting it out and still allows you to breathe. You don't need to be starving for air while trying to crawl out the window. Also, it acts as a really good cleaner/degreaser when whiping it up.

No matter what system you go with, be very careful when you cut the lines. It is best to gradually use a rotary pipe cutter like you'd use to cut copper plumbing or brake lines as it leaves no burr on the outside as it pushes toward the center, then open the ID back up with an ice pick. No matter what type of blade you use (razor, scissors, etc) it will leave a burr on the trailing edge that can very easily give false positive when pushing it into the quick connect fitting most of the systems come with. The burr snags the o-ring and you think you have it all the way in but you are only just touching the o-ring, then it leaks from the backside instead of spraying through the front when you need it. Something very important we learned and I spent a lot of time going to World Challenge and Viper Racnig League races checking every car produced to make sure there where no leaks.

Steve Chryssos
01-07-2006, 03:47 PM
I was heavily involved in setting up the fire system in the Viper Comp Coupe. We used the SPA Technique Firefighter system with 4 liters of AFFF (aqueous film forming foam). ....

Sounds very well thought out. It's important to note that this system was specifically designed to save both the vehicle and its occupants--including 4 liters of agent. The average system uses much less volume and therefore prioritizes the occupants. They are designed to buy time for the occupants--not necessarily extinquish fires and or save the vehicle.

Damn True
01-09-2006, 03:46 AM
Here are a couple of AFFF systems. 3 zone, passenger compartment, engine compartment, fuel cell (trunk). Looks pretty complete:

http://www.paragon-products.com/product_p/essfire-5.0-liter-kit.htm
http://www.paragon-products.com/product_p/essfire-2.3-liter-kit.htm

Two zone system:
http://www.truechoice.com/prodinfo.asp?number=TRURC4LE

steemin
03-03-2006, 07:54 AM
Who has a fire extinguisher mounted in their car?
I am thinking of adding one possibly mounted on the trans tunnel
(no console)
I really don't want to go with red or chrome. The interior has a lot of brushed aluminum (steering column,steering wheel,gauge cluster pod and glove box door) and I cannot find anything to match.
I guess that I could paint one to match the body color Urban Grey.
Thoughts?
Scott

CAMAROBOY69
03-03-2006, 08:03 AM
I will be watching this thread closely because a fire extinguisher is on my list of things to do before April. It will either be mounted between my 2 rear bucket seats with a quick release pin. Or it will be mounted in front of the passenger front seat. I would just paint it to match your interior. Thats what I will do.
Mounted on the trans tunnel would work well in your situation. You could even use it as an arm rest. If nothing else in your interior matches the body color then paint it to match the interior.

Steve1968LS2
03-03-2006, 09:54 AM
This is what I have for Penny. It's a very simple design and you can get it in a brushed silver finish. The bracket is a very simple yet secure black wire frame that is perfect for mounting to the trans tunnel. I don't know why it says "chrome plated".. mine looks like the one in the pic and is brushed silver..

http://www.autosportz.com/accessories_safety_fire_extinguisher.htm

You want something easy to get to but VERY VERY secure. It would suck in an ironic way to be killed by your fire extinguisher in a crash when it breaks free and flies toward your head.. ouch!

Here's some REALLY good stuff if you want something nicer or a fire suppression system.

http://www.livermoreperformance.com/safecraft_fire_systems.html

Another one in Silver:
http://www.sporttruckdirect.com/Fire_Extinguishers.html

A very nice unit from Sparco.. at least you can trust the name :)

http://www.performancecenter.com/products/category_Interior+Accessories/productcategory_Fire+Extinguisher/searchtype_d/sortorder_A/mode_change/

Jagarang
03-03-2006, 10:04 AM
Does anybody know of any extinguisher that is easily cleaned or does not damage what it is sprayed on? I'm thinking of something like a CO2 extinguisher that would not leave a residue, yet starve a fire of O2 to extinguish it. Is Halon a gas, powder, or other?

What do these things do when used on the engine compartment or interior, as far as salvage or repair after usage?

CAMAROBOY69
03-03-2006, 10:05 AM
Steve,
I just called and they said OBX doesnt make the fire extinguisher that you bought any more.
I like this one quite a bit that you posted but its hard to tell how well the bracket works. Its only $39.95 too.
http://www.sporttruckdirect.com/Fire_Extinguishers.html

gumbycw
03-03-2006, 11:31 AM
I purchased my extinguisher about 5 years ago. It is chrome. I know you said you don't want chrome and I remember APC has a brushed aluminum type one.

Caleb

DarylH
03-03-2006, 12:05 PM
Does anybody know of any extinguisher that is easily cleaned or does not damage what it is sprayed on? I'm thinking of something like a CO2 extinguisher that would not leave a residue, yet starve a fire of O2 to extinguish it. Is Halon a gas, powder, or other?

What do these things do when used on the engine compartment or interior, as far as salvage or repair after usage?
If you are really concerned with clean up, then CO2 or Halon being a gas will be the better choice. I'm not positive, but had heard that Halon wasn't being offered in new extingiushers anymore.

Dry Chemical would be another economical choice, but leaves a powdery mess when you're finished.

Steve1968LS2
03-03-2006, 12:30 PM
Does anybody know of any extinguisher that is easily cleaned or does not damage what it is sprayed on? I'm thinking of something like a CO2 extinguisher that would not leave a residue, yet starve a fire of O2 to extinguish it. Is Halon a gas, powder, or other?

What do these things do when used on the engine compartment or interior, as far as salvage or repair after usage?

Halon is a gas that displaces O2 to kill a fire.. the bad side is that you need O2 to live. lol

I've heard it's not going to be as available. I also heard there is some sort of replacement that isn't as dangerous to human life but I can't remember what it is..

Bummer that they don't make the one I own anymore.. it was a nice compact lightweight unit and it looked good as a bonus.

I am thinking of some sort of fire system and a stand alone unit for extra measure.

Jagarang
03-03-2006, 01:10 PM
It's expensive compared to the others so far, but I've got 100,000+ in the car so what is a few hundred more? It's also a Ferrari specific site apparently, so a cheaper one must also be available....the search continues!

http://ricambiamerica.com/product_info.php?products_id=261193&osCsid=dec0c37aa520975ff9db25f80512d7a2


That was a quick search!

This may be the replacement you speak of Steve.
http://froogle.google.com/froogle_cluster?q=Halon+Fire+Extinguisher&pid=4709277296119796926&oid=11711034789588557096&btnG=Search+Froogle&oi=froogler&scoring=mrd&hl=en

MORE------
http://froogle.google.com/froogle_cluster?q=Halon+Fire+Extinguisher&pid=4751229660500681058&oid=14883285901810843483&btnG=Search+Froogle&oi=froogler&scoring=mrd&hl=en

http://www.sportys.com/acb/showdetl.cfm?&did=22&product_id=2718

THE MOTHER LOAD!!!

http://www.h3r.com/products/index.htm

Steves link is also Halon in prettier canisters!

http://livermoreperformance.com/safecraft_fire_systems.html


These are bigger with brushed aluminum canisters available. The 2.5 lb extinguisher only activates for 10-15 seconds. I think I lik e the idea of having more than I need verses less. The 10 puonder is 550$$$$$.
http://www.griggsracing.com/firesystems.html

Steve1968LS2
03-03-2006, 01:28 PM
Hmmm.. Halotron..

http://www.halotron-inc.com/

''The primary objective of the Halotron division of AMPAC is to develop products which fill the void left by the exit of halon fire extinguishing agents and satisfy the requirements of the user who needs a Clean Agent. Halotron‚ I is a streaming agent that meets those requirements and is gaining wider acceptance around the world as a safe, effective, environmentally acceptable fire extinguishing agent.

The application areas for Halotron‚ I include Office Buildings, Retail and Wholesale Sales Facilities, Art Galleries, Automobiles, Short and Long Haul Trucks, Light and Medium Weight Delivery Vehicles, Warehouses, Computer Rooms, Manufacturing Plants, Clean Rooms (for computer chip manufacturing), Textile Plants, Laboratories, Heavy Machinery, Hazardous Material Storage Areas, Aircraft Engine Nacelles, Aircraft Flight Lines, On-Board Aircraft (portables), Aircraft Manufacturing, Aircraft Rescue and Fire Fighting (ARFF) Vehicles, Military Electronics Facilities, Military Training, Commercial Vessels, Yachts, Pleasure Boats, Ship Control Rooms, Ship Engine Rooms, Passenger Crew Areas, Conventional and Nuclear Generation Plants, Transmission Facilities, Telecommunications Facilities, Railroad Equipment, Auto Racing, Libraries, FAA Control Towers, and Spacecraft Facilities"

steemin
03-04-2006, 08:04 AM
Thank you for all of the responses and links..
You guys are awesome.
Now you have me thinking about a fire suppression system.
This site is the place to go if you are wondering how to spend a few more dollars on the ride :cheers:
I am going to get busy and start doing my homework now!
Scott

Damn True
03-04-2006, 11:18 AM
I am seriously considering an AFFF system in the car.

Damn True
03-07-2006, 07:14 PM
Steven Rupp was asking me about this stuff last night, so TTT for him.

CAMAROBOY69
03-24-2006, 01:24 PM
I have been looking everywhere and still havent decided what I want to get yet.
1. This http://www.sporttruckdirect.com/Fire_Extinguishers.html However this is 8# and might be too big. They couldnt give me any dimensions. $39.00
2. or the one Steve got. http://autosportz.com/accessories_safety_fire_extinguisher.htm Decent bracet but not what I was expecting. :) $49
The #2 on the list barely carries enough material to put out any fire. Its mainly for looks.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://img360.imageshack.us/my.php?image=10ji.jpg)https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://img360.imageshack.us/my.php?image=21zr2.jpg)


3. or one from local store and make my own bracket

rockdogz
03-24-2006, 03:04 PM
Here's some halotron ones...

http://www.griotsgarage.com/catalog.jsp?&SKU=26685

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

ProTouring442
03-25-2006, 05:05 AM
Halon is a gas that displaces O2 to kill a fire.. the bad side is that you need O2 to live. lol

I've heard it's not going to be as available. I also heard there is some sort of replacement that isn't as dangerous to human life but I can't remember what it is..

I may be wrong, but this is what I remember from the Coast Guard course on Boating I took several years ago. Halon doesn't really "displace" oxygen. It was explained that, as we all know, fire is really a chemical process, the rapid oxidation of the base material. Halon is chemically more "attractive" than oxygen in a fire situation, but doesn't oxidize. Hence, it stops the fire. Since our lungs don't work the same way as a fire, we can breathe when there is a fairly large concentration of Halon in the air, but just not very well. So, they said that it would support life, but you might feel light headed, or even pass out. This was in a boat environment, where the automatic system had discharged when you didn't know it. Like when you were sleeping.

I also understand that Halon has been banned before (I think it's a CFC) but the ban was lifted because nothing came close. In fact I remember watching the FAA testing replacement products for putting out engine fires on Jet Airliners. All the major companies were there, BASF, Dow, Etc. and nothing came close at all! Every time they resorted to the back-up Halon system!

Anyway, like I said, I might be wrong on this.

Shiny Side Up!
Bill
'72 442 "Inamorata"

rockdogz
03-25-2006, 10:02 AM
I read that companies are no longer able to produce Halon, but they can re-capture it and sell it. If these Halotron ones work just as well, then maybe it doesn't matter anyway.

Midnight68
03-26-2006, 09:55 AM
Here is a pretty good deal on Halotron ones.
http://www.safedrives.com/proddetail.asp?prod=2%2E5halotron&cat=32

Here are some Halon ones
http://www.h3r.com/products/home_vehicle.htm

And some info on Halon
http://www.h3r.com/halon/faq.htm

CAMAROBOY69
03-27-2006, 11:47 AM
WARNING!!!!
I just called to purchase this same fire extinguisher that Steve has and they said this little bottle is mainly for show only!!! Only around 1/2# of material inside the bottle. This is coming from the dealer that was going to sell it to me. He said there is barely enough material in the bottle to put out any flame inside of a car. I guess my quest for an extinguisher continues.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://img360.imageshack.us/my.php?image=10ji.jpg)https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://img360.imageshack.us/my.php?image=21zr2.jpg)

CAMAROBOY69
03-27-2006, 11:54 AM
Here is the one that I just bought. $39.95 and comes with sturdy bracket too. :cool:
About 12" H and around 3" DIA. 8# of material. Perfect
http://www.sporttruckdirect.com/Fire_Extinguishers.html
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

CAMAROBOY69
04-05-2006, 03:40 AM
My fire extinguisher came in last night. Looks like a great product and I can actually use the bracket that comes with it. Its small and compact and they claim it has 8# of material. I will be bolting it in within the next few days between the rear bucket seats. It has 2 notches in the neck to help it lock into place.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://img227.imageshack.us/my.php?image=11hw.jpg)https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://img227.imageshack.us/my.php?image=21lq.jpg)https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://img227.imageshack.us/my.php?image=34nl1.jpg)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://img92.imageshack.us/my.php?image=41dx.jpg)https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://img227.imageshack.us/my.php?image=57dg1.jpg)https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://img92.imageshack.us/my.php?image=66td.jpg)

69ratfed
04-05-2006, 04:00 AM
Hey Camaroboy,
How much does that exstinguisher weigh? From the size compared to 20oz bottle. It doesn't look like it weighs 8lbs.
Just curious.:dunno:

CAMAROBOY69
04-05-2006, 04:03 AM
Hey Camaroboy,
How much does that exstinguisher weigh? From the size compared to 20oz bottle. It doesn't look like it weighs 8lbs.
Just curious.:dunno:
It definetly does not weigh 8#. Mabey 2# or 3#. I thought mabey the material weight is compressed or something. Heck I dont know. They say 8# on the site and claim 8#. Would that mean the bottle should weigh 8#? I am keeping it no matter what but just wondering how the weight works for fire extinguishers.

DeepBlue68
04-05-2006, 05:28 PM
I don't think the pressure inside the bottle would have an effect on how much it weighs. A given mass of that stuff will weigh 8 pounds, and as long as you're not changing that amount of mass, 8 pounds is 8 pounds regardless of what size space it's packed into (as long as you don't leave earth's standard gravity). Or am I losing my mind? :dunno:

CAMAROBOY69
04-06-2006, 03:40 AM
Thats pretty much what I thought too. I guess they have some major false advertisement going on. I am actually glad its this small. An 8# bottle would be quite large in there. I like everything about this one. Hopefully I never have to use it but at least it will be piece of mind having it in the car. I decided to get this after I read the "Breaks my heart" thread that Steve made.

Marktat
04-09-2006, 09:58 AM
What do you guys suggest? Trunk or passenger compartment.

Steven
04-09-2006, 10:20 AM
Depends why you want one. If for the track, it should be in reach of the driver and passenger. If just to have one, the trunk would be fine. For show or just to have one, out of the direct sun. Mine is in reach of the driver and passenger on the trans hump.

muthstryker
04-09-2006, 01:29 PM
is there room under the passenger side dash??

Marktat
04-09-2006, 04:33 PM
I don't road race but I do take the car down the 1/4 mile a few times a year. Its a convertible so the trans hump would be in direct sun. I might just put it in the trunk unless someone chimes in with a reason not to. Thanks.

steemin
04-09-2006, 04:48 PM
I am wanting to put one on the trans tunnel.
I like the look and easy access.
I didn't realize that direct sunlight would be an issue.
I would love to see someone manufacture a billet hold down with a
flip-up arm rest (billet hinges) incorporated into the design.
Just send me half the royalties :bananna2:

Navin R. Johnson (inventor of the opti grab)

CAMAROBOY69
04-10-2006, 10:17 AM
I got my fire extinguisher bolted up over the weekend. Looks real nice between the rear bucket seats. I can even put the back seat down and it doesnt create any issues with the fire extinguisher. I will try to get some pics tonight. I actually have quite a few pics to take.
They also said the 8# on their website is a typo and that it should be changed eventually. Its not 8# which is perfect to me. It would be a lot harder tucking an 8 pound bottle away.

Orngcrush69
04-11-2006, 08:22 PM
Camaroboy, thanks for doing the research for us, it sounds like it's just what I'm looking for.

Jim Nilsen
04-18-2006, 02:46 PM
Look back a ways and you will find more about this subject. There is a bracket to mount one in front of the seats if you don't have any other place.

Jim Nilsen

Marktat
04-18-2006, 03:32 PM
Thank you

Steven
04-18-2006, 07:12 PM
I should have stated that I live in the desert and have seen items destroyed by direct sun inside of cars. I have mine on the trans tunnel, but have a cover that provides shade when I'm not on a track.

David Pozzi
04-18-2006, 08:24 PM
There are marine brackets that have two latches, much safer in a rollover or crash. I autocrossed with one just in front of my seat on the floor.

DeepBlue68
04-18-2006, 08:52 PM
I have been keeping up with this thread, and had pretty much decided on putting an extinguisher in my car. However, after a recent event that happened, I have now decided that I will be installing a full extinguisher system for the cabin and trunk/engine compartment.

4 people that my dad worked with were in a helicopter crash last week in central Texas. They hit some power lines shortly after takeoff, and the line actually ripped the gas tank open (which was mounted on top of the cabin...not sure why you would design something that way) and then sparked the gasoline on fire. So basically burning gasoline poured all over the people inside the helicopter as it was falling toward the ground. When it hit, the pilot, front seat passenger, and one of the back seat passengers were thrown from the wreckage. The other back seat passenger (the first back seat passenger's wife) wasn't thrown out, and never escaped the fire. The front seat passenger died the next day in the ICU from extensive burns over his entire body. The husband lived, but has severe burns over most of his body. The pilot is badly burned from the waist up, and will spend the next 6 months in the hospital and will never walk again. The husband and wife have a 4- and a 6-year old.

My dad spoke to the first emergency doctor on the scene, who told him that the reason three of the people were thrown from the aircraft was that the fire was hot and intense enough that it melted their harnesses before the helicopter ever hit the ground. A failure in the safety system that actually probably saved two of the peoples' lives.

Just makes you think...an extinguisher system might cost you a few hundred bucks, but I can't imagine getting in a crash and not being able to get out of the car fast enough to avoid being badly burned. Not to mention if you had passengers with you, especially in the back seat. They'd never have a chance. Just something to think about.

/soap box

CAMAROBOY69
04-19-2006, 03:24 AM
Here is a pic of the fire extinguisher in my car. Its not a close pic but I took it last night and you can see the fire extinguisher between the 2 back seats.
Sorry to hear about the tragic helicopter accident. The good thing about our cars is the fact that we will never have a fuel cell or gas tank mounted above our heads so the chance of any of us getting that badly burnt would be less likely. However if you can afford the full fire suppression system, that is the way to go.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://img99.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fire17zo.jpg)https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://img99.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fire27rl.jpg)

TC Design
04-26-2006, 08:00 PM
err

TC Design
04-26-2006, 08:00 PM
I would recomend an AFFF system in most cases. The small 2.3L systems that can support three ports run ~$380. Run one port to the gas tank area, one under the dash facing the driver and passenger and one to the engine compartment. A few tips on systems: 1) get the aluminum line kit not the stainless braided line option. The braided line kits never come with enough hose or the right fittings. Just bend the line just like brake/fuel line with flare fittings. 2) make sure to route the pull cable with large bends so the the cable is free to move. Test pull cable operation before you install the CO2 canister. 3) be sure to support the line often so it can not bend/vibrate and ultimately fail, adell clamps work great for this.

If you do use a hand held ext. make sure to use through bolts with a back-up plate. DO NOT USE SHEET METAL SCREWS!

-Tony Colicchio
www.tcdesignfab.com

toofun
05-11-2006, 10:30 AM
Dont know if anyone is still interested in info on this post but here is what I plan to do when I customize my interior. Only difference is I will have a velcro style door to cover it. Here is the link to the piece rod doors makes.

http://www.roddoors.com/pages/gumbo-dir.html#firext

Mark
TOOFUN

SickSpeedMonte
05-11-2006, 11:06 AM
Come on man, be cool and put it on the A-pillar!!

J/K

I have mine right under the passenger side of the dash.

CAMAROBOY69
05-12-2006, 03:25 AM
I put mine on the trans tunnel between the two rear 4th gen bucket seats.
You can see it in this pic from the other fire extinguisher thread. My car sees the road track quite often.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://img99.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fire17zo.jpg)

steemin
05-15-2006, 05:47 PM
Adam,
Thanks for all the research and follow up pics.
I just ordered one for my car..
Scott

CAMAROBOY69
05-16-2006, 03:48 AM
Awesome. I think it gives the car an extra "cool" looking factor and not to mention the piece of mind knowing the car is a little safer. I will probably bolt this one in Heathers mustang before we take it to the track next month.

David Pozzi
05-20-2006, 07:08 PM
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2006/05/2081JPG-1.jpg
Here is one with two clamps, much safer in a car.
It uses Halon 1211, and is sold by Pegasus Racing http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productdetails.asp?RecId=439
It has a 5 BC rating.

Steve1968LS2
09-29-2007, 04:49 PM
Should I go 10lb or is 5lb big enough? The cylinder will be mounted in the rear seat area and I want a small footprint, plus the 5lb is less expensive.

I will be running two discharge nozzles. One to the engine and one under the dash near my knees.

I'm thinking of adding a third for the fuel cell area. Would it be better to discharge in the trunk or under the back of the car. I have a Fuel Safe unit so I'm not that worried about a fire back there but the system can have three ports, so why not.

Any advice?

The system I'm looking at:
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=SAF%2DRS5AAB&N=700+115&autoview=sku

I will also be mounting a Halon extinguisher in front of the passengers side seat.

chicane67
09-29-2007, 05:28 PM
Well... Safecraft is definately my choice for a stand alone system... that is for sure.

Since your not really "running" the car in anything with class rules (as of yet) and this is just for street smarts, I think 5lbs should do for the engine and dash area alone. If you do any sanctioned stuff later, you could always add another 5lb system... or if you are just looking at doing the trunk area by itself... there is always a small automatic (http://www.safecraft.com/product_page_detail.asp?ProductID=106&ProductCatID=1&ProductSubCatID=1&menu=&Search=) system.

You will want to split the bottle into three nozzles for your application. Two (two port nozzles) under the hood, 1 to each side of the engine directed to the block and oil pan seam under the headers and the third (three port nozzle)... to the dash, from the center of the tub to your legs and feet and the firewall.

I will be running 2 RS10 systems (2x10lb bottles; 20lbs total) in the 67. One to both sides of the engine and the firewall and the second uses 2 nozzles in the passenger compartment and one in the trunk.

Damn True
09-29-2007, 06:14 PM
Tom,

What are your thoughts on a system such as the SPA Design AFFF setup?

chicane67
09-29-2007, 06:44 PM
They work well in an enclosed environment, like that of the interrior... but AFFF doesnt fair too well if it is dispersed into an environment where there is moderate air movement, like that of being under the hood while at speed.

I feel it could be done effectively if the installation was paid careful attention to and I believe that it would have to do more with the type of nozzle and how it is, not to mention where it is directed, for it to be effective under the hood.

For the most part, it works better if the vehicle is near to or is comming to a stop... or if its at very low speed.

Steve1968LS2
09-29-2007, 07:06 PM
I want a system mostly for "protection of investment", I will never hardcore race Penny.. just open track stuff.

I just don't see the logic in NOT putting a fire system into any valuable car. It's cheap insurance.

I will do like you say, two to the engine bay and one to the driver. Eventually I will add an auto-system to the trunk.

Thanks for the advice. I'm trying to get them to run a story on the install since I think it has merit. I get resistance since "the powers" think that most people don't care about a fire system. My feeling is that they just don't know that they should care and that we should teach them.

chicane67
09-29-2007, 11:03 PM
I just don't see the logic in NOT putting a fire system into any valuable car. It's cheap insurance.

I will do like you say, two to the engine bay and one to the driver. Eventually I will add an auto-system to the trunk.

I get resistance since "the powers" think that most people don't care about a fire system. My feeling is that they just don't know that they should care and that we should teach them.

I couldnt agree more.

$500-600 to protect yourself and your investment... IS cheap insurance.

Maybe the "powers" to be, need to focus and publish the realm's of saftey before they really need an excuse to. I mean, dont publish it after there is an excuse to... but to become pro-active and instill the discipline to 'think' saftey from the get go. The technology of speed isnt going become an afterthought... it should be taught from the very basic level... and become second nature. Afterall, the big three spend millions on this very subject.

I dont know what anyone else think's what their life is worth... or the what the investimate entails for that matter... but the reality is pretty blatent.

Rick Dorion
09-30-2007, 04:08 AM
I really wish the powers that be would be more safety proactive. Look at Autoweek on teen driver training. How can they not be socially responsible. I'm getting faint from lack of O2 on my high soapbox.

John McIntire
09-30-2007, 05:41 AM
I think that this is an important subject, and that many of us aren't educated enough in it. I've seen these set ups on race cars, but not on a street car. What I think deters most guys from installing a set up like this is not the price, because it is a very wise investment, but the installation. How do you install such a system in a "street" car so that it is not so visible. I would imagine most guys wouldn't want that much of it exposed. That is why I think most of us resort to the old 2 or 3 pounder in the interior, and that gives us some peice of mind.
I'm sure you can get very creative with the install, much like a Nitrous set up, heck guys are pretty sneaky with them nowadays. I guess you just need to really think and plan it out so it blends into the car instead of sticking out like a sore thumb.
So you get my vote Steve for the article, I think that it would be very informative, and would reach a lot more enthusiasts than those that are just on the internet. Heck, how many NOS installs has your mag, and all the other mags done in the past? This should be an easy sell, you can apply some installation tips and tricks that could be used for either systems, along with system design and layout!
just my $.02

eville
09-30-2007, 08:13 AM
I'd love to see an article on it. You've got me thinking too!
Also, I want that article on fuel tanks and cells.
Educate the reader, don't 'wow' us with another dyno session.

Damn True
10-02-2007, 08:51 AM
They work well in an enclosed environment, like that of the interrior... but AFFF doesnt fair too well if it is dispersed into an environment where there is moderate air movement, like that of being under the hood while at speed.

I feel it could be done effectively if the installation was paid careful attention to and I believe that it would have to do more with the type of nozzle and how it is, not to mention where it is directed, for it to be effective under the hood.

For the most part, it works better if the vehicle is near to or is comming to a stop... or if its at very low speed.

Really?

So you think that a heavier than air gas (Halon) will be more effective when there is air movement than a viscous liquid?

I'm curious as to why?

Having deployed AFFF in a helo crash (outdoors, rotors still spinning) it hits and sticks.

Is it a factor of the sheer volume of the halon gas in the area dispersing the O2 and snuffing out the fire? If so, what does it do to prevent reignition if the wind is blowing or the car is still moving?

Not calling you out, just curious.

Damn True
10-02-2007, 08:52 AM
I'd love to see an article on it. You've got me thinking too!
Also, I want that article on fuel tanks and cells.
Educate the reader, don't 'wow' us with another dyno session.

Ditto.

A big Bill Simpson interview would be great. Who better to get CORRECT safety information from?

chicane67
10-07-2007, 12:21 AM
Really?

So you think that a heavier than air gas (Halon) will be more effective when there is air movement than a viscous liquid?

I'm curious as to why?

Having deployed AFFF in a helo crash (outdoors, rotors still spinning) it hits and sticks.

Is it a factor of the sheer volume of the halon gas in the area dispersing the O2 and snuffing out the fire? If so, what does it do to prevent reignition if the wind is blowing or the car is still moving?

Well... yeah. If you observe how each of them work and how different they are... if might make more sense to why one would work better in one application better than another. Just take a look as to how each of them are deployed, the properties of how each works and how they do their job. I believe that the oxygen displacement properties of Halon works better than a aerated foam in an active environment.

First and foremost... the following statement is the one thing that we have to remember. A 'fire suppression' system is not to put the fire out in case of one, they are to give you a few more seconds to exit the car, so instead of trying to decide where to put the nozzle so it will put out a fire, put it somewhere to just push it back enough to keep from burning YOU.

The first observation with AFFF is that it isnt a viscous liquid at the time of application. It is when it's in the cylinder... but, when it is dispersed it becomes a foam. That foam becomes lighter (closer to that of air) and it tends to get blown down stream (past the fire) and sticks... to whatever (but the system doesnt have the volume you likened to aircraft use). Which in thought, isnt such a bad thing considering that the flame propagation will be doing the same thing... it will be going down stream, for the most part. Its great if you have a catastrophic failure and oil down the front of the tub and the underside. But do you want to give the fire the time to take hold and build localized heat into a isolated area ?? I would think not. I think I would want to snuff the plume ASAP as it wouldnt lend to migration. On other thought's, there are other assoicated problems with AFFF. Upon activation, the bottle tends to freeze... which as you can imagine is a bad thing because it tends to loose vessel pressure and it will freeze the valve, the lines and the retardant itself. It also isnt very friendly to the interrior, and especially any wiring. But... the worst thing about using it in the interrior is what it does to visability. There will not be any... and it takes 1.5 times the amount of AFFF to extinguish the same fire as it does with Halon.

The scoop on AFFF (foam)... There are four available chemical makeups of AFFF for various applications but only two of them are compatible for our use. The first two are "Low-expansion" foams, that are foams with expansion rate lower than 20 times. Foams with expansion ratio between 20-200 are medium expansion. The low-expansion foams, eg. AFFF, are low-viscosity, mobile, able to quickly provide coverage of large areas. The third is "High-expansion" foam. HEF has an expansion rate over 200 is suitable for cases when an enclosed space, eg. a garage/shop/hangar, has to be quickly filled. And lastly, "Alcohol-resistant" foams contain a polymer that forms a protective layer between the burning surface and the foam, preventing the foam breakdown by alcohols present in the burning fuel. Alcohol resistant foams should be used in fighting fires of fuels containing oxygenates, eg. MTBE, or fires of liquids based on or containing polar solvents. These are NOT non corrosive and can eat wiring and interrior. It can also brake down and corrode aluminum (which would require the use of SS for discharge tubing).

Halon on the other hand, has far more 'Pro's and far less 'Con's than AFFF. First and foremost, it is more efficient pound for pound. It is considered a "clean agent". A clean agent does not extinguish by smothering (as is foam's goal), but it displaces oxygen, and inhibits the chemical chain reaction. They are labeled clean agents because they do not leave any residue after discharge. There are two available chemical makeups of Halon for our intended use. Halon is a liquefied, compressed gas that stops the spread of fire by chemically disrupting combustion. So basically we have 1211, being a liquid streaming agent gasifies under normal atmospheric conditions, and 1301, a gaseous flooding agent. Both leave no residue and are remarkably safe for human exposure. Halon is most effective for flammable liquids and electrical fires (rated B:C) and is electrically non-conductive and is also non corrosive. The biggest problem with Halon is... that there isnt much of it left at an affordable price, for too much longer. And then there are the tree huggers...

Lets think about this for a minute. What are the three main goals in fire prevention/containment ??

Life safety (your own)
Property protection (your investment)
Continuity of operations (making sure it does what it need to do without effecting anything else, like killing you)All you really, really want to do is... get out alive and unharmed. If you look at motorsports over the past 25 years... there has been one stellar performer when dealing with fire situations. If you go to other boards that have a common use for a supression system like that of Corner Carvers, Rennlist, the Bimmer racing sites, the Landspeed cats... so on and so on... there is a common compound used... and it is Halon. That should say something, I would think...

I am not saying that AFFF couldnt be successfully employed. In fact, I think it could be if the installation was paid attention to... with the only exception being inside the interrior. I would love to hear anyones elses experience with any system in question. This is a subject that cant be discussed enough...

John McIntire
10-07-2007, 04:25 AM
Damn man! what are you? the fire marshall??
Great info, I never heard of AFFF, but have heard good things about the Halon, especially the no residue part.
We'll have to wait and see what Steve has in store

Steve1968LS2
10-07-2007, 06:23 AM
I ordered a 5lb halon system (the RS). Two nozzles to the engine bay and one under the dash. :)

I'm trying to decided on the standard pull activation or a push type deal. Going to mount the cable in dash where the cig-lighter use to be.

Also bought a 2.5lb hand held halon bottle that I will build a bracket for. It will mount to the front of the passengers side seat.

Eventually I will take the advice and mount an automatic bottle in the trunk. For now this will do.


Hey, isn't there a breathable Halon on the market now?

chicane67
10-07-2007, 04:30 PM
I ordered a 5lb halon system (the RS). Two nozzles to the engine bay and one under the dash. :)

I'm trying to decided on the standard pull activation or a push type deal. Going to mount the cable in dash where the cig-lighter use to be.

Also bought a 2.5lb hand held halon bottle that I will build a bracket for. It will mount to the front of the passengers side seat.

Eventually I will take the advice and mount an automatic bottle in the trunk. For now this will do.


Hey, isn't there a breathable Halon on the market now?

Push or pull... good question. I say pull. The reason I think this... depending on where the mount is, it is easier to pull something when you are strapped into the seat than it is to push something forward. Where you mount the handle is a pretty important consideration. I myself would mount it on a bracket in between the seat and tunnel or near the stick somewhere so that you can get to it without having to unstrap yourself.

Good call on the 2.5lb handheld. That should be considered the bare minimum for all street driven vehicles in my opinion.

Breathable Halon. BIG subject... lots of talk going on about this. Halon 1211 and 1301 will extinguish a fire at about a 5% concentration. The difference between the two agents is that Halon 1211 becomes toxic to humans at about a 2-2.5% concentration and Halon 1301 becomes toxic at about 9% concentration. Obviously, you can see why Halon 1301 is perfered, however, use of Halon 1211 would benifit in high heat environments. Also, Halon 1211 can be better when mounting in a very hot location such as on top of the exhaust system. Halon 1301 will expand more rapidly than Halon 1211 and therefore it can have a tendency to over-pressurize the cylinder. I would not really worry about the toxicity levels unless you were sitting in a closed compartment with a full ten pounds released into it... for more than about 5 minutes. Obviously, if you pull the handle... you WILL not be in that compartment for more time than it take you to get out.

There is also a couple other 'replacement' materials that are worth looking into. The biggest player is "FE36" by DuPont. The three others are FX-400 (FireX plus), FM200 and CEA-614. The FX-400 is somewhat new and still hasent taken a real hold yet, but it look promising. Its done well enough that it is now excepted by the NHRA as the "Official Fire Supression Product". Both the FM200 and CEA-614 have taken a slide in the industry for unknown reasons to me... but the FE36 is what is taking over for Halon in 2008 by the sanctioning bodies. In fact... by 1/1/08 all SFI rated systems shall be FE36 (or equivalent Halon replacement) and that pretty much closeses the door for Halon in the racing industry.

The news on this is that a 10 pound Halon system can be refilled with FE36... and, depending on how old a 5 pound system is will determine if it can be refilled. If the cylinder is 4 inch diameter then yes... a 3.5 inch diameter... no. If you are using this on the street or unless your system has an SFI sticker... don't worry about it. Halon will be around for many years and is still considered a better agent than FE36. It is true however, that you will need 1.5-1.8 times quanity of FE36 vs Halon to extinguish the same fire. That fact currently elludes to that all the sanctioning bodies are ignoring this at this time. Well see how this pans out shortly as the SFI and bodiy rules and regs will have to be defined by then.

chicane67
10-14-2007, 04:44 PM
So Steve... do ya think the power that be, are gonna bite on doing an install article ??

NOT A TA
10-14-2007, 07:06 PM
Even if there's not an install article I wish there was an informative article article describing the pro's and cons of different types of systems for varying applications.
I've been trying to figure what type and size of system to install in one of my cars for about a year now. During that time I've continued to run track events and on the street without one. And I want to BUY one! I just don't want to buy one and then find out I'd have been better off with a different one or that it doesn't qualify for a certain event after getting there and tech officials turning me away.
I looked at one SFI 17.1 compliant 4 nozzle 3 zone foam system and after reading the fine print discovered I'd have to send it back to remain certified while a non compliant system is owner rechargable and could be done at a track if discharged. Add to that trying to clean my interior with water (recommended cleaning fluid) and I decided that a foam system probably wasn't going to be good for me.
There's a lot of us (myself included) running electric fuel pumps that could feed a fire a lot of fuel in a short amount of time. Many have no safety shut off for that pump in case of a mishap other than possibly a toggle switch. I've heard NASCAR doesn't allow electric pumps so if theres a wreck the pump stops if the engine does.
I'm in the process of making my car as safe as I can before I make it any faster. Already bought a HANS compatable ARAI helmet (device later) I'll get a full cage, Safer seats, better harnesses, Fire system and good fuel setup before I spend any money to go faster. Ya can't play anymore if you're in a hospital!

Mike Holleman
10-15-2007, 05:23 AM
You bring up a good point on electric fuel pumps and fire. Many folks seem to just wire one up with no thought of safety in a crash. The simple solution is to use an oil pressure cutoff switch. Engine shuts down, fuel pump is disconnected. Not a perfect solution, but it does stop the flow of fuel when oil pressure is not present. Also, thanks guys for this thread. This is one area that I very much want to be better educated.

NOT A TA
10-15-2007, 05:55 AM
Thanks for reminding me about that oil pressure setup Mike! I read that somewhere long ago but never thought of it when I switched to an electric pump. I just have a toggle switch I can barely reach when strapped in the harness. I'm going to make an oil pressure switch a priority.
I wouldn't even be using an electric pump if a serious mechanical was available for Pontiacs. I've always felt the electric pumps for applications like mine just reduce reliability by adding electric circuts. Every connection/wire/switch etc just adds things that might fail at some point. To me simpler is better.

nbecker
10-15-2007, 06:48 AM
Just remeber if you put an oil pressure switch for the fuel pump you will need to put in a momentary bypass switch for start ups since you wont have pressure.
I think an article would be great since i never thought of a fire system before i found this site, you never see it in the regular non racing mags!

NOT A TA
10-15-2007, 06:57 AM
Excellent point! Hadn't thought of that! Duh... Now I have 2 pieces to look for. Then mount, wire, connections etc. more places for failures! But better to not run if theres a failure in the electrics than fry in a fire!

Mike Holleman
10-15-2007, 04:13 PM
I haven't found a mometary switch to be necessary. I just installed this setup on a 502 crate motor. I have oil pressure in about two revolutions. The 502 starts almost instantly.

NOT A TA
10-15-2007, 06:53 PM
Talked to the mechanics at the garage next door to my bike shop and they said the same thing. No momentary switch necessary, particularly since that car is carbed and there's plenty fuel in the bowls to fire it up anyway.

Steve1968LS2
10-22-2007, 05:59 PM
I got my fire system today but I doubt I will get it all installed by SEMA. Too much to do.

Anyways, it comes with 10-ft of alum tubing hardline. is there a reason one couldn't use a more flexible material like teflon lined braided hose? Seems like it would be easier to route.

Just curious is there's a reason, line flex under pressure? (during discharge)

I also bought thier 1211 Halon 2.5-lb handheld unit.. man, that is one beautiful fire extinguisher.

protour_chevelle
10-22-2007, 07:57 PM
pics

chicane67
10-22-2007, 08:44 PM
I've done -4 systems in PTFE stainless (just like the brake hose)... and I think it would work just fine for your application.

Steve1968LS2
10-23-2007, 05:07 AM
I've done -4 systems in PTFE stainless (just like the brake hose)... and I think it would work just fine for your application.

Since the new carpet if glued to the tunnel it sorta killed my original routing. Thinking of mounting to the rear roll cage and running the lines down the drivers side rocker channel to under the dash. From there I can go through the firewall.

I think I will try to bend the hardline but if I can get it looking beautiful it's nice to know I have another option.

I also need to draw out my bracket to mount the hand held to the front of the passengers seat.

I will post some pics later.

monza
11-12-2007, 11:11 PM
Just ordered some Safeguard equipment for FueL. Looks like winter outside so I have some time to install it:
http://www.safecraft.com/index.asp

Model RS5 3 head Pull Cord (two engine outlets, one drivers area)
At3 Automatic (truck/ fuel tank area)
PB2 hand held unit (passenger area mount)

Thanks to Penny/Steve and Chicane67 for all the info in this thread>>
https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34996

ALL winter long to wait for the track....:banghead:

Steve1968LS2
11-15-2007, 08:13 AM
That's exactly what I have. I just need the time to install the big system. Eventually I will have the AT3 auto unit in the trunk

Hey, I came up with a simple bracket for mounding the handheld to the front of the passengers seat. It's a great location. I need to make an adjustment to it and have my waterjet guy punch out a few more. Let me know if you want one.

monza
11-15-2007, 06:20 PM
Been a bit of a set back, they can't ship/export Halon into Canada. Not sure what I should do. I could get the other agent in there, not as good and costs more. Or just wait until I take a trip down to the States and bring it home.

Steve your bracket for mounting, is it to mount the billet mount or did you not get that billet piece?

BigVin
01-07-2008, 02:38 AM
Steve
How did you mount your hand held extinguisher to the seat?
thanks Vin

WayneE
01-09-2008, 05:59 AM
I have a Firefox 10lb system in my C5. I selected this system because I'm in a closed cockpit and I wanted something that would work in the classes where I want to race (Maxton ECTA standing mile). My car is a street car, so I wanted to be able to keep the install as hidden as possible.

I put the pull near the shifter, so I could reach it with arm restraints (required by class) on me. The hard SS lines are run under the interior trim pieces with 2 nozzles under the dash pointing towards the firewall and 2 nozzles in the engine bay.

I mounted the bottle behind the seats, between the rear rollbar points.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/01/th_firefox4-1.jpg (http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r228/Uber55/c5/firefox4.jpg) https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/01/th_firefox15-1.jpg (http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r228/Uber55/c5/firefox15.jpg)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/01/th_firefox14-1.jpg (http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r228/Uber55/c5/firefox14.jpg) https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/01/th_firefox10-1.jpg (http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r228/Uber55/c5/firefox10.jpg)


I don't think this system will save my car, but I'm just looking for more time to get out in the event of a fire.

Jim Nilsen
01-09-2008, 12:27 PM
having worked with E stops on machines forever. If it is a push style, it is for certain it will accidentally get pushed :jawdrop: :crying: .

Pull is the best way to make sure it is intentional :twothumbs

NOT A TA
11-23-2008, 05:24 PM
After reviewing as much info as I could find, going through the rulebooks of the sanction bodies I have/will run with, and discussing fire systems with anyone I knew who already had one as well as some tech folks from sanctioning bodies I decided on 2 Firefox systems. While the Halon systems are clean, the sanctioning bodies seem to be leaning toward foam for the future requirements as rules are updated. I had originally thought I'd be using a Halon type system because of the lack of cleaning necessary if the systems ever activated however after my research I decided on a the Firefox setup for my application. http://firefoxind.com/firefox.html While there are other very effective systems in the end it's a personal decision.

The Firefox systems I am installing use a bladder type system using Fire X Plus/Gem Foam. I will have 2 systems in the car. A 6.5 lb. 2 nozzle will take care of the passenger compartment (Kinda overkill) and a 10 lb. 4 nozzle system for the engine compartment and fuel tank/pump area. I will use 2 seperate pull type activators located within easy reach while harnessed in, and accessible by both the driver and navigator. There is a way of using one pull handle to activate both systems however I've decided to run them as seperate systems for a couple reasons with each system being a stand alone system. The systems are about $400.00 and $600.00 respectivly.

If the car ever catches fire and I activate the systems I'll be thinking about how it may have reduced my injuries, saved my life, or preserved my car while complaining about cleaning up the mess. As far as continued operations after a fire occurs and the system needs to be activated? Well if my car catches fire, and it doesn't burn to the ground, I'm gonna call it a day and pack it up in my trailer if I'm at a track event, or call a roll back flat bed tow truck if I'm out on the streets and head home. One car fire a day is my limit!

Here's the 6.5 lb Firefox system

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/10/The14Carmisc2020-1.jpg

1968Maro
11-05-2009, 11:33 AM
Lots of information about Halon systems and I thought I would throw in my $0.02.

Back in the day I was in the army in the mech cavalry. Halon is used as a fire supression system on Bradleys and Tanks. The instruction we recieved is that halon is a colorless odor less gas that is heavier than air. It is usually mixed with a powder so you can see it went of and where it went.

It puts out fires by displacing oxygen and interupting the chain reaction. The old joke was that Halon was designed to save the tank and kill the crew.

I was in a Bradley that got struck by an IED in Iraq in 2005. We had a flash fire that went through the fuel cell and into the ammo box. The halon system kicked on and killed the fire for a few moments. The crew was able to bail out of the vehicle. A few seconds later the fire reignited and burned the Bradley to the ground. Halon is designed to supress a flash fire and get people out. I could still breath, but I was so focused on getting out, I forgot to check to be sure.:)

If you are in a Bradley they tell you to close the hatches and try to keep the halon in the vehicle, but if the ignition source is still there when the halon displaces the fire will reignite. Halon is designed to save the crew, not the vehicle.

Not trying to tell a war story here, just telling you about being in a vehicle fire when a halon system went off and what my experiences were.

monza
11-05-2009, 12:07 PM
However a good war story! Interesting for sure.
Ultimately I guess if there is a fire, getting out alive is the key saving the car from burning up is secondary. Easy access to your hand held is important, assuming your together enough to get out then fight the fire from the outside.

1968Maro
11-06-2009, 01:41 PM
Got me thinking about that day, dug up some pictures.

monza
11-06-2009, 02:26 PM
Got me thinking about that day, dug up some pictures.

and what you didn't want to close the hatch and stay in there???

mkenco
02-24-2012, 07:10 PM
I engineer fire protection systems for a living. There are several consideration to look at when designing these systems. Most fire protection systems to work correctly need enough agent, the correct agent, fuel shut down and they work much better in an enclosed area. Keep in mind that fire needs oqygen and when your car is moving oqygen is being pushed into and around the car. This fuels the fire. If your engine compartment was closed up , fire suppression systems would work even better. This goes back to having enough fire suppression agent,taking in consideration the need for more due to what we will be loosing through openings and again we need the fuel to shut down upon system activation or we will have a great chance of reignition.
As far as what type of agent? A clean agent such as FM 200 or FE 25 would be the perferred choice. This is the same agent used on protecting boat engine compartments. Its very clean leaves no residue, however we dont do very good as humans around this agent mainly due to the lack of oqygen that will be present after discharge. The "clean agent" is also available in handportable fire extinguishers. A very good manufacture is Amerex they come in chrome or red complete with brackets. I have weighed out the option of installing a suppression system in my 1969 camaro convt. but instead I have installed two small handportable clean agent extinguishers. Hope this helps

tigerracer
02-24-2012, 08:46 PM
I'll toss my two cents in and a little experience. If you are trying to protect yourself and the car using halon you need a minimum of a 10 lbs bottle. Safecraft and Firebottle recommend 2 nozzles/ 5 lbs bottles. I also reccomend installing the interior nozzles under the dash pointing away from you as the halon will fill the area under the dash and protect your legs first, and travel rearward. Now this is something I learned the hard way, I had a fire system in my vintage racecar which was about 10 yrs old, bottle pressure was inspected every race at tech. Last year while running an enduro at Watkins Glens I had a fuel fire, as I pulled into the pits, I pulled the cable of the fire system and nothing happened. Thank God for the quick actions of another race team from Texas they got the fire out with minimal damage to the car. Upon inspecting the firebottle I found there was a bit of sand or dirt that kept the pin from firing the bottle. Lesson learned, clean firing pin area of bottle with carb/brake cleaner and compressed air 1 or twice a year, especially if you race in So Cal.

Dales Restorations
San Bernardino

sik68
08-10-2012, 04:00 PM
Hey guys, I found this article on 3M's new "1230" gas....apparently at least a few of the NASCAR teams are using it for their fire suppression...thoughts?

http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/3MNovec/Home/Support/Novec1230-NASCAR/PressRelease/

tAndGWbHUCw

qVG_OQvhXrs

sik68
08-20-2012, 01:18 PM
I really sunk my teeth into this topic in the past 2 weeks, and put together a writeup about this history and science behind fire suppression systems. Fact-checking is most welcome.

History
AJ Foyt's team debuted the first on-board fire suppression system in 1967 at the Indy 500. He used Halon 1301, and it didn't take long for everyone else in racing to adopt the system using 1301. It was the standard for nearly 30 years in almost all forms of professional racing.

Halon 1301 had a big drawback though-that it has to be stored at HIGH pressure to keep it aqueous, which proved problematic in racing applications where heat and other harsh environment factors were causing accidental release failures. This is where Halon 1211 stepped in. With a much lower aqueous pressure and similar suppression effectiveness, it supplanted 1301. Here's the problem with 1211, itís more toxic to breathe. In toxicology speak, it has a much lower LOAEL (lowest observed adverse effect level) concentration than 1301. Using the SFI 17.1 test procedure for enclosed driver compartments, a 5lb system will net you 12X the LOAEL for 1211, versus 1.7X for 1301. Once the SFI procedure was established and racing governing bodies adopted the standard (ie NASCAR) and saw toxicity ratios greater than 1.0 for both systems, Halons got BANNED. You may see that nearly all rule books today prohibit it.

DuPont, seeking to fill the void in the racing market, began promoting their FE-36 product, which is the trade name for the gas HFC-236fa. It passes the SFI 17.1 toxicity criteria with a ratio of 0.83, doesn't deplete the ozone like Halons (in the 1990s ozone depletion was another nail on the coffin for Halon), and best of all, it puts out fires just like Halons. DuPont's FM-200 (chemical name HFC-227ea) is also SFI tested and passed, and there isn't any meaningful information to distinguish it from FE-36. So what you will find are FE-36 and FM-200 are the DuPont products are on the short list of SFI 17.1 approved suppression systems.

3M is now recently in the racing market (last 12months) with their own gas C6F12O, trade name Novec 1230 which is now on the SFI approved list. Discerning if this gas is any better than the DuPont products is also difficult without really digging into the chemistry. The bottom line is there appears to be no citations of meaningful technical differences among FE-36, FM-200, and 1230, so I'm assuming that most racers will decide based on price points. If someone knows more than me on this please fill in the blanks.

Powder vs Foam vs Gas
This issue really has been the core of the discussion on the forums. I believe we can all agree that there is no bad choice. Even an ABC handheld extinguisher sometimes has its advantages over suppression systems, in that you can fight the fire from outside your car (or in a moment of racing comradery, your competitor's car).

Handheld Extinguisher
Here's a great story from my father, who owns child care centers and transports 14 kids at a time to and from school each day. He has a fire extinguisher mounted in the 15 passenger van on the leg of the first bench seat where the 'big kids' sit. One of the hooligans got bored during the drive one day, pulled the pin out and wanted to see what would happen if she kicked the handle with her foot. It was depressed for at most 2 seconds, but the powder quickly dispersed and FILLED the whole van in seconds. Visibility was 0 and so was breathability...the powder induces heavy coughing and discomfort. Fortunately he was going 5mph in front of a school at the time, came to a stop and everything turned out fine, but it could have been a lot worse. The bottom line is it is really is unwise to try to use an ABC powder extinguisher while you're still in the car. The powder is overwhelming, disorienting, and in most situations probably more of a hazard to your safety than a benefit.

Foam System
There are several SFI approved foaming suppression systems...and since they pass the 17.1 test you can trust that they will do their primary job: giving you time to get out of the car, and secondarily, hopefully stifling the fire sufficiently to allow the fire crew to get there. The distinct shortcoming of a foaming system has already been discussed by many of you-the coverage is not omnidirectional. It simply doesnt propagate like a gas; foam can't be relied on to get in the many hard-to-reach places in a car. The other two concerns are logistical: foam is corrosive...so there is appreciable cleanup necessary to prevent the foam from damaging your car, including the metal itself. In fact, the reason foam systems must be sent back for certification every 2 or so years is to ensure that the coating is preventing a corrosive reaction in the cylinder. The second issue is that foam is a surfactant; it's slippery. Foam on the track has been claimed to be a slipping hazard to the cleanup crew, and a difficult to clean up from the track surface. Whether or not your system wets the track is conjecture, but it is something to know in the decision process.

Gas System
The gas systems mentioned from 3M and DuPont are also on the SFI approved list; but have the reputation that the gases are suffocating. In essence yes, it is not sustainable to breathe the stuff; flourocarbons are bad for you. And I can't tell you from first hand experience what the sensation is to inhale these gases. However, the important takeaway that the suppliers emphasize is that the suppression gases are not replacing 100% of atmospheric air in the car with suppressant. The concentration of a 5lb or 10lb system fully discharged in the cabin is between 10% and 12%, which is all that is necessary to snuff the fire. The design concentration of the system is such that the occupants can remain alert and functional. The SFI criteria takes into account LOAEL levels, so you can expect that the system isnít going to knock you out. You can see in the video above a validation of this, as the person walks in and out of the test room seemingly unfazed by the room full of the stuff he's breathing.

The design discharge rate of fire suppression systems is targeted between 0.25 and 0.5 lbs per second, which equates to 10 to 20 seconds depending on the number of nozzles used. Until learning of this, I had assumed that supression systems were an instantaneous "dump" of the tank. Also, another debunked misconception is that a 10 lb system does not inject 2x as much suppressant as a 5 lb into the cabin. For reasons of complying with LOAEL levels, the 10 lb system is designed to be plumbed into the trunk area, not to double down on the amount of gas in the cabin. At this point, it is important to consider the importance of a trunk firewall, as it has important implications on the gaseous concentration of the system.

Conclusion
If there's any conclusions I've reached for myself, is that there seems to be a significant racing precedent for using a gas system. I don't plan to hotbox myself to find out for sure, but think I am reassured that the gas systems are designed to keep occupants breathing. I think the real appeal of a foaming system is that the sprayed surfaces stay "wet" which could suppress the fire for a longer time. If fire crews take a while to reach the scene, this could play out to a real advantage in minimizing carnage. However, personally I am more compelled by the lower maintenance of gas suppression systems, and the omnidirectional coverage of a gas filling the car.

I hope this was helpful! Like I said I'm not an expert at this stuff, just fearful of fires and fascinated by the history, science, and design of suppresion systems. Please contribute if you see areas where I missed or am just flat out wrong.

Link to SFI approved fire suppression systems:
http://www.sfifoundation.com/current171products4.pdf

vette427-sbc
02-02-2019, 04:15 PM
Id like to bump this thread in hopes of getting some setup help... I have a Safecraft LT 5lb bottle of 3M Novitec with 3 nozzles. I havent been able to find a good guide on placement/positioning of the nozzles for maximum effectiveness. I realize this probably varies car-to-car, but at least some general knowledge would be very helpful.
The nozzles in my kit have a 120* spray pattern.
160993

Any pros or cons to mounting with a forward facing spray? Or should they discharge in the down position? My engine compartment (C3 Corvette) is pretty low profile meaning I wont be able to get the nozzle too high up in relation to the engine, fuel pressure reg, oil tank, etc...

For interior placement, the car has a stock style dashboard, is it more common to put a nozzle under the dash in the footwell area? Higher up behind the dash? Ive seen some that dump centrally overhead but I would assume this is not ideal for a gas suppression being the windows will likely be open.

Any info is greatly appreciated!