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JustJohn
08-12-2020, 05:12 AM
It's coming:
https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/car-accessories/a32354466/electric-crate-motor/

08-12-2020, 06:46 AM
Yeah... I just can't get on board with that...

andrewb70
08-12-2020, 06:49 AM
" $60,000 for the parts alone..." LOL

Andrew

ORBandit
08-12-2020, 10:30 AM
GMs hinted at similar options. When these take-off, ICE of the past will be a joke.

BonzoHansen
08-12-2020, 06:10 PM
The copo gm had at sema a few years ago was electric with a th400, wasn't it?

JustJohn
08-13-2020, 04:04 AM
Yes the first one is expensive like anything else. My daily driver is electric and I can't justify buying another gas burner for every day use.

At some point, probably after we're dead a while, gasoline will be a novelty item that powers museum pieces and relics for the wealthy.

Vimes
08-13-2020, 10:02 AM
Yeah... I just can't get on board with that...

I can totally get on board with it, once the recharge time problem is solved. As long as it takes longer to charge it than it takes to use it, I have zero interest in an electric drivetrain. Once they do though... folks have been building electric cars hitting low 7 seconds in the quarter mile.

JustJohn
08-13-2020, 11:09 AM
Strictly out of wanting to know your perception of this, what do you see as an acceptable recharge time? I plug in to 220 every night when I get home to be topped off in the morning. At 30 minutes for a supercharger station, yeah that's an inconvenience for driving cross country, which I don't do in this car.

When people ask me how often I have to charge my car, like visiting my outlet in the garage is an extra trip, I'm always surprised and usually rephrase the mileage question to time in the car. With an i3 like mine, it's a little over 2.5 hours before I use the range extender. Most months I just run the engine for 15 minutes to keep it lubricated.


I can totally get on board with it, once the recharge time problem is solved. As long as it takes longer to charge it than it takes to use it, I have zero interest in an electric drivetrain. Once they do though... folks have been building electric cars hitting low 7 seconds in the quarter mile.

andrewb70
08-13-2020, 12:57 PM
Y....

At some point, probably after we're dead a while, gasoline will be a novelty item that powers museum pieces and relics for the wealthy.

I actually agree with this completely. I fact, I fully understand how an electric only drivetrain is vastly superior to internal combustion engines. Once the battery technology catches up, there is zero reason to have internal combustion powered cars.

I have actually been thinking about doing an EV conversion on an older VW bug. My wife likes those cars a lot and it would be a fun project. EV West offers kits already, but I am waiting for the Tesla motor powered VW kits.

Andrew

John McIntire
08-13-2020, 05:46 PM
I think it's a cool idea and would even attempt to build one some day, once prices come down and battery technology advances.

I remember when Chevrolet introduced the ECOPO concept and they talked about a crate kit to fit in your older car, but that seems to have fallen by the wayside. There's been no talk of it at all, they even sold the ECOPO!

GRNOVA
08-13-2020, 06:28 PM
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=electric+small+block&docid=607990107221329134&mid=8DA207CF2DE21CFDBF988DA207CF2DE21CFDBF98&view=detail&FORM=VIRE

JustJohn
08-14-2020, 03:57 AM
You could probably package the i3 driveline a lot easier. It's closer to the right size car and probably more readily (cheaply) available.


I actually agree with this completely. I fact, I fully understand how an electric only drivetrain is vastly superior to internal combustion engines. Once the battery technology catches up, there is zero reason to have internal combustion powered cars.

I have actually been thinking about doing an EV conversion on an older VW bug. My wife likes those cars a lot and it would be a fun project. EV West offers kits already, but I am waiting for the Tesla motor powered VW kits.

Andrew

Vimes
08-14-2020, 12:27 PM
Strictly out of wanting to know your perception of this, what do you see as an acceptable recharge time? I plug in to 220 every night when I get home to be topped off in the morning. At 30 minutes for a supercharger station, yeah that's an inconvenience for driving cross country, which I don't do in this car.

When people ask me how often I have to charge my car, like visiting my outlet in the garage is an extra trip, I'm always surprised and usually rephrase the mileage question to time in the car. With an i3 like mine, it's a little over 2.5 hours before I use the range extender. Most months I just run the engine for 15 minutes to keep it lubricated.

10 minutes tops. I should be able to pull into a charging station on electrons (otherwise known as fumes,) top up and be back on my way with full range in that time. And before you say it can't be done, here's a couple of promising breakthroughs being worked on.

https://www.design-engineering.com/researchers-recharge-ev-in-10-minutes-1004033965/
https://www.hybridcars.com/mits-liquid-battery-could-refuel-minutes-30157/

So far as charging at home, that's nice until you have an overnight storm that knocks your power out. If it's out long enough, you're stranded until power comes back on long enough to recharge. I can also get into any car I own and drive coast to coast at a moment's notice, can't do that in an electric. It's not an ability I wish to give up, and I do occasionally have the need to drive further one way than an electric car can manage on one charge. If I need to haul people I take the SUV, if I need to go for work I take the truck, if I'm going to a show I'll take my project when it's done. Gasoline allows me to go there and back in a day, electric requires an overnight stay at a motel where I can charge the car, if that's even possible. Might require a 2 night stay, so I can go find a place to recharge the car enough to make it home. EVs are not ever going to be anything more than a curiosity or a city commuter until the 10 minute recharge is a thing, and infrastructure is put into place to support it. And consider, I'm a PRO-EV person. Imagine trying to convince an anti-EV person without the above in place.

Peanut1959
08-15-2020, 06:14 PM
Achieving less expensive buy-in, easy access to quick charging, and weight are the prime impediments. I'm on board once that happens.

MonzaRacer
08-16-2020, 12:30 PM
When it's takes 5 minute or less for charge, doesn't cost arm and a leg to repair and such I might get on electric bandwagon BUT if you run out of juice on road, your hauling it to charging station or home.

mikedc
08-22-2020, 05:43 PM
Electric drivetrains "just need to improve the weight, range, charging times" in the same way that space travel "just needs to improve the speed, safety, and cost problems." These problems are not minor hiccups, they are the whole story. Researchers have been struggling with this stuff for 100 years.


That said, electric cars are probably the future for short/medium commutes. They are simpler & cheaper than IC cars if range is not an issue. Lately the battery tech has gotten good enough that the price math starts to make sense.

I'm guessing EV vs IC will develop into an urban/rural difference. Nobody is gonna be plowing snow in the backwoods with an electric F250 any time soon. It's just not practical to carry the battery equivalent of 30 gallons of gas. Current EV cars are carrying more like 3 gallons worth of stored energy.

Vimes
08-23-2020, 03:16 PM
I'm guessing EV vs IC will develop into an urban/rural difference. Nobody is gonna be plowing snow in the backwoods with an electric F250 any time soon. It's just not practical to carry the battery equivalent of 30 gallons of gas. Current EV cars are carrying more like 3 gallons worth of stored energy.

And in the coming split between the urban EV and the rural F250, the F250 will burn wood.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2020/08/IMG_0029-1.jpg

http://www.driveonwood.com/

TrendSetter
08-24-2020, 01:21 PM
ive been reading around quite a bit the past week about tesla drivetrain swaps. Its a very cool idea, but its still a lot of money and you need about 1000lbs worth of batteries, and range is less than 100 miles.
I dont mind the range, its not like a tesla swapped chevelle or whatever is going to be what i build to drive across the country anyway.

ICrombie
08-24-2020, 06:01 PM
Electric drivetrains "just need to improve the weight, range, charging times" in the same way that space travel "just needs to improve the speed, safety, and cost problems." These problems are not minor hiccups, they are the whole story. Researchers have been struggling with this stuff for 100 years.


That said, electric cars are probably the future for short/medium commutes. They are simpler & cheaper than IC cars if range is not an issue. Lately the battery tech has gotten good enough that the price math starts to make sense.

I'm guessing EV vs IC will develop into an urban/rural difference. Nobody is gonna be plowing snow in the backwoods with an electric F250 any time soon. It's just not practical to carry the battery equivalent of 30 gallons of gas. Current EV cars are carrying more like 3 gallons worth of stored energy.

People seem to wrongly assume that Moore's Law will apply to all of these problems (like they did for computers), and conclude that in ~20 years or so batteries will have orders of magnitude more storage than the batteries of today. Problem is that it doesn't apply, as batteries are physically limited: https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/the-curious-wavefunction/moores-law-and-battery-technology-no-dice/

As you said, batteries have been the subject of intense research for going on 40 years, and are still a very long way from even coming close to matching the range of an ICE w/o 1000+ lb of dead weight.

Vimes
08-24-2020, 09:54 PM
People seem to wrongly assume that Moore's Law will apply to all of these problems (like they did for computers), and conclude that in ~20 years or so batteries will have orders of magnitude more storage than the batteries of today. Problem is that it doesn't apply, as batteries are physically limited: https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/the-curious-wavefunction/moores-law-and-battery-technology-no-dice/

As you said, batteries have been the subject of intense research for going on 40 years, and are still a very long way from even coming close to matching the range of an ICE w/o 1000+ lb of dead weight.

You're correct that Moore's law does not apply, however research will advance the cause. To me, this is the most promising solution (see link below) for EV recharging, provided the electrolyte could be recharged and is not a one-use kind of thing. It wouldn't matter how long it took to recharge the electrolyte, so long as the process to replace the electrolye in the car didn't take more than 10 minutes. The electrolyte could either be recharged on-site, or taken to a refinery for recharging. If the car itself could recharge the electrolyte via a plug-in charger, even if that part did take overnight, bonus. You'd only need to drain and fill if you travel.

https://www.hybridcars.com/mits-liquid-battery-could-refuel-minutes-30157/

JustJohn
08-25-2020, 04:34 AM
You really don't need to match the range of an ICE for most common driving. People grossly overestimate how much driving they typically do, typically being the operating word. I do not think electric cars are a universal solution at this point but the overwhelming majority of households with 2 vehicles (or 5) would be well served by one of those cars being electric, which would be a massive increase in efficiency.

We do plan to switch over to 2 electrics for our daily drivers in the next couple of years and will either rent a car for the once a year cross country drive or take the track car if needed.

CarlC
08-25-2020, 05:19 PM
Many of the issues regarding range can be solved by standardization. If the OE's could use a standardized power center (aka battery) then swapping at a battery station becomes practical. That would only take a few minutes to do.

I would love a practical EV powerplant / power center that could supply the equivalent of an LT5 engine, but the timing for such aftermarket offerings is likely 10+ years away at best.

mikedc
08-26-2020, 07:09 PM
I'm guessing the near/medium future will be households having a "mommy" EV (probably a smaller compact car) and a "daddy" IC vehicle (probably a pickup/SUV).

As for rapidly swapping out standardized batteries at gas stations . . . I dunno. That may be the best system. But it's gonna take a lot of changes to bring that system about. I don't see it happening for a couple more (vehicle) generations of EVs.

Zachalanche
08-26-2020, 08:58 PM
I just hope i can finish my current project before gasoline becomes a novelty. And at the rate i am going. Its going to be close.

mikedc
08-27-2020, 02:55 PM
I just hope i can finish my current project before gasoline becomes a novelty. And at the rate i am going. Its going to be close.

Here's a thought that hits deeper:

In a future EV world where every $15k used sports car can accelerate like it has 700 hp . . . how would that affect your spending priorities? Would you still want to dump a ton of money into a 502" big block or a blown LS3 if it wasn't going to feel particularly fast anymore? Or would you say "Screw it, maybe I'll just run a cheaper engine and put some of that money into other areas of the project"?

Zachalanche
08-27-2020, 06:28 PM
Here's a thought that hits deeper:

In a future EV world where every $15k used sports car can accelerate like it has 700 hp . . . how would that affect your spending priorities? Would you still want to dump a ton of money into a 502" big block or a blown LS3 if it wasn't going to feel particularly fast anymore? Or would you say "Screw it, maybe I'll just run a cheaper engine and put some of that money into other areas of the project"?

I already went the LS route due to "bang for buck". Id probably just put an electric motor in my hot rod. But batteries have to come way way down in price first. But theres always a case to be made for building a particular engine just because its cool. Even if its not tge fastest. Infact, you will never be the fastest anyway.

Vimes
08-28-2020, 02:32 PM
Here's a thought that hits deeper:

In a future EV world where every $15k used sports car can accelerate like it has 700 hp . . . how would that affect your spending priorities? Would you still want to dump a ton of money into a 502" big block or a blown LS3 if it wasn't going to feel particularly fast anymore? Or would you say "Screw it, maybe I'll just run a cheaper engine and put some of that money into other areas of the project"?

In that future world, it can be assumed that the recharging problem has been solved. If that is the case, then no - I would get motors from two of those sports cars for the project so as to accelerate like it has 1400HP. If the cars are using wheel on motor, I'd need some fender flares.

Because the only thing better than speed, is twice as much speed. :revto9k: Second place is just the fastest loser. :thankyou:

mikedc
08-28-2020, 03:20 PM
In that future world, it can be assumed that the recharging problem has been solved. If that is the case, then no - I would get motors from two of those sports cars for the project so as to accelerate like it has 1400HP. If the cars are using wheel on motor, I'd need some fender flares.

Because the only thing better than speed, is twice as much speed. https://static1.pt-content.com/images/smilies/revto9k.gif Second place is just the fastest loser. https://static1.pt-content.com/images/smilies/thankyou.gif

It's already recognized that there's a finite amount of HP you can practically use on a street car. That won't change just because it starts coming from batteries instead of gasoline.

EVs will bring sports/muscle cars to that point pretty easily, and not just the exotic expensive models.

Then they will push past it. The electronic driver aids will become mandatory. I mean not just for legal reasons but for performance & safety. Military fighter planes already crossed this point decades ago.

Trying to retrofit all this stuff into a 50yo car . . . incorporating the driver aids successfully . . . I don't see a lot of that happening.

I see a few guys doing the rebody thing, where they take the lower half of a modern car and weld the roof & sides of a classic body onto it. But at that point it's less like PT and more like body-kitting a modern car.

Rolling_Thunder
08-29-2020, 11:13 PM
I wouldn't mind a EV as a daily - I actually will probably end up with one in the coming years as my career actually allows me the $$$ to afford one - for shorter commutes I don't see a negative especially if you work in a company that had EV charging stations at work... But not sure doing classic car EV system swaps is something I can truly support - to me it defeats the purpose of having a classic car... but that's just me.

I just can't imagine my Charger or Polara with an electric motor as propulsion...

67-LS1
11-23-2020, 10:04 PM
I would definitely put an electric drivetrain in my 66 if I could purchase a battery that would fit and give me 200 miles of range. And I could afford it. I think all three of these issues will be solved but the question is when.

I also think the next big push in electric vehicles will be short haul trucks. Delivery, cement mixers, garbage trucks, contractors, etc. Every kind of application where the vehicle returns to the same yard each night. They can afford the infrastructure to charge every vehicle at night (when the rates are cheaper) by redirecting the money the currently spend on gas or diesel.
Most of these vehicles donít drive 100 miles a day although they would use more kWH due their weight. Not the same for long haul trucking where electrification makes zero sense to me.
Iím actively looking at companies I can buy stock in for growth opportunities in these applications.

badazz81z28
12-08-2020, 10:17 AM
I think it will be more likely 20-25 years until we see a massive movement with electric cars...I remember when they tried to convert over to E85 hybrid cars...boy that sure took off....That was 25 years ago and we are still use regular fuel.

Vimes
05-20-2021, 08:38 PM
https://www.motortrend.com/news/tesla-crate-motor-ev-conversion-small-block-v-8/

Revolt has a crate motor based on a Tesla, which uses small block Chevy mounts and has a driveshaft yoke. Looks like it fits mostly in the trans tunnel, so once you worked out the battery issue you can convert. 11,900 bucks for this setup, 533HP and 800TQ at the yoke. Run that through some 5.33s and it would probably rip the meat clean off the rear tires, since on an electric it's max torque at 0RPM. With 2.56 rear gears it would likely still run like a scalded dog at WOT but use practically no power at cruise.

Peanut1959
05-21-2021, 03:46 AM
I really hope the latest aluminum ion battery technology lives up to its potential. This could be a game changer.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeltaylor/2021/05/13/ev-range-breakthrough-as-new-aluminum-ion-battery-charges-60-times-faster-than-lithium-ion/

Just 1 More
05-21-2021, 05:30 AM
I'd love to build a 1968 Camaro AWD EV :6gears:

Larry Callahan
05-21-2021, 08:38 AM
I'd love to build a 1968 Camaro AWD EV :6gears:

Oh yeah!