New Variable Speed/PWM Cooling Fan Controller from PSM

[CarlC]

Power Systems Management (PSM), a new company founded to design and develop practical and useful control strategies for electrically driven devices, introduces the all new VC1240 variable speed, pulse width modulation cooling fan controller.

https://www.powersystemsmanagement.com/products/

https://i.hmjimg.com/images/2020/05/14/20200209_123401.md.jpg (https://www.hostmyjunk.com/image/VThy3)

The stand alone VC1240 PWM fan controller has the following features:

* Stand alone - Can work with EFI or carburetted applications.
* Compact design - At 2.1" x 2.1" x 11/16" means it can be mounted to the inside of many metal radiator fan shrouds.
* Easy installation - Most applications will have a total of six wires: Power in, Power out, temperature sensor, and A/C override.
* High Current Capability - 40A continuous, enough to comfortably support the largest dual brushed fan applications while allowing a smooth ramp-in/soft starting feature.
* A/C override forces controller on to 50% power when connected to the compressor clutch or Bat+ trinary switch.
* Safety - The controller will tolerate a short circuit to ground or a short circuit to 12V, current overload, and over temperature conditions, and will do so indefinitelywithout damage.
* Under and Over Voltage Shutdown.
* Short Pulse Timing - Will work with all brushed type fans including Ford Contour and Taurus applications without causing unnecessary motor wear.
* Long Life - Designed with the electronic circuitry separated from the high power components means a MTBF that should outlast the application.
* Hermetically sealed
* UL-94 compliant materials throughout.
* A real data sheet: https://psm-protouringcom1.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/VC1245-VC1265-Datasheet.pdf

In development since March 2019 using a 35A Lincoln Mark VIII fan as the benchmark, this controller can drive even the largest twin brushed fans with little trouble. For twin fan applications both fans will run together, hence lowering the at-idle fan noise even more. Here's the prototype mounted to the plastic shroud using a metal plate to provide additional heat sink capability. Pardon the many extra screws, dials, and switches as this allows removal and testing a variety of functions without having to remove the fan shroud. In other words and in full disclosure, this is what a test mule looks like when mounted in the most convenient location.

https://i.hmjimg.com/images/2020/05/14/20200514_1643321.md.jpg (https://www.hostmyjunk.com/image/VT324)

The VC1240 is available from Northern Radiator under P/N Z18350 https://www.northernradiator.com/Product/Z18350?criteria=Z18350 This kit also includes a mounting bracket to allow flexibility (not in-shroud) in the mounting location.

Please feel free to ask any questions and I'll be happy to help.

[Motobrewmaster]

I will be sending people your way. Everyone who has seen my DCC fan and Vaporworxs fuel PWM's working is sold. I'll point them to the site.

Cheers, Steve

[joeko23]

How much is it?

[CarlC]

Thank you for the kudos Steve.

For pricing, please note the link to Northern Radiator. They can provide either pricing or refer you to a local dealer.

[65 drop top]

I definitely want to do pwm fans in my 55 Chevy LS3. I have been looking at the DCC controllers and it appears that this PSM controller is made by DCC, since their name is on the instruction sheet. So what’s the difference? Just a different brand name or are there any new features or advantages? Thank you.

[andrewb70]

How do I make this work with Holley EFI?

Andrew

[parsonsj]

Wow, nicely done! Moves directly on to my list of recommended upgrades.

[CarlC]

PSM is a joint venture between DCC and I. The basics are the same but we both wanted to do something different.

Advantages:
* More compact and efficient design.
* Heavy duty #10 power studs.
* All new circuit boards and microelectronics to allow for mounting inside the radiator shroud.

Andrew, I sent a message on your question. After some thought, I believe we can make it work with the Holley ECM if an output voltage table can be built.

Happy to help JP!

[anguilla1980]

Do you have anything that would be appropriate for an electric water pump? Can this be controlled by a Holley ECU?

[mc1984ss]

I am interested in this as well. Will this control a two speed fan?

[andrewb70]

....Can this be controlled by a Holley ECU?

Carl and I had a chat about this today. Carl will work on work on a little box that will allow the Holley ECU to control this controller.

Andrew

[OldTimer]

I've been discussing this controller with Carl for a couple of months, I'm going to order it this week. Going to be using a Ford Contour dual fan setup with a custom-built shroud. Here's a sketch I just sent Carl for critique on my mounting. If you're wondering, I reduced the Contour setup to just the bare fans and cut away all the plastic shroud which was too wide for my Cold Case radiator core. My serpentine system is tight as far as clearance between core/belts goes, this works. The fab shop is in the process of plasma cutting the shroud and then doing all the bends and welding. Carl noted that this controller has been tested with the Contour fans and that... plus the size/features of the unit made it a top choice for me.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2020/05/42hgxkI-1.jpg

Once I get everything put together, I'll create a thread with all the details.

[CarlC]

Sorry, we don't have a water pump optioned controller at this time.

Regarding two speed fans, that falls into two categories:

* For Ford fans that have a low/high such as the popular Taurus setup, just connect the high speed circuit to the PSM controller. Do not connect the low speed side.
* For others such as the Valeo/Dodge fans, connect both the low and high speed circuits to the PSM controller.

We are working on an interface circuit to allow integration into a Holley or other aftermarket ECM that can produce a 12v square wave output using a temperature vs. duty cycle plot.

[65 drop top]

What is the benefit of integrating the controller into the ecm? And if it is integrated, would it be able to use the temp signal from the ecm so that you wouldn’t need the sensor that comes with the controller?

[CarlC]

Using the Holley ECM does eliminate the need for a separate temperature sensor.

Integrating the controller into the ECM does allow the user more individual control. The standard sensor + A/C over-ride is very effective, but the Holley integration allows for custom tailoring based on the desires of the customer.

[parsonsj]

Now we need to get those Holley systems working with an AC pressure sensor, then we won't need a trinary/binary switch anymore. I assume it can be done with a custom sensor?

[andrewb70]

Now we need to get those Holley systems working with an AC pressure sensor, then we won't need a trinary/binary switch anymore. I assume it can be done with a custom sensor?

If there is an available input, it can be configured for a 5v AC pressure sensor. Then the fans can be activate by either AC pressure and/or coolant temp. Having a speed input is also helpful to disable fans above a certain speed.

Andrew

[dontlifttoshift]

I have used GM pressure sensors with Holley ECMs, no need for a custom sensor. Make your own value table for the sensor. The wire that comes from the Vin Air ecu and goes to the compressor now runs through the Holley ECU. Set your high and low limits and done......no need for binary switch.

Why do we need a separate box in between Carls fan controller and a Holley ECM.

[andrewb70]

I have used GM pressure sensors with Holley ECMs, no need for a custom sensor. Make your own value table for the sensor. The wire that comes from the Vin Air ecu and goes to the compressor now runs through the Holley ECU. Set your high and low limits and done......no need for binary switch.

Why do we need a separate box in between Carls fan controller and a Holley ECM.

Because the only variable output that the Holley can provide is a PWM duty cycle. Carl can answer in more detail.

Andrew

[parsonsj]

I like it. I was thinking "custom sensor" as the Holley would see it. A GM AC pressure sensor is what I was thinking too...

[dontlifttoshift]

Because the only variable output that the Holley can provide is a PWM duty cycle. Carl can answer in more detail.

Andrew

Curious because two boxes between a Holley ECU and a brushed fan puts me in just buy a brushless fan mode.

[andrewb70]

Curious because two boxes between a Holley ECU and a brushed fan puts me in just buy a brushless fan mode.

That's a very good point, as long as those brushless fans fit the radiator. It's a mix of functionality vs. cost.

Andrew

[OldTimer]

Just a Heads-Up... Northern Radiator is a wholesaler so you can't buy direct from them unless you are a dealer/distributor. I called and they referred me to Keystone Performance in Pennsylvania. Don't know if I'm allowed to post phone numbers, so I won't, but Keystone is a regional distributor. When I called Keystone, they told me the item is not in their system.

Carl had originally told me this unit would be available through the normal speed parts retailers and Tony at Northern Radiator said they might not yet have it in their (Summit, Jegs, Speedway, etc.) system... he wasn't sure.

[CarlC]

My apologies that it's taking time to get these parts through the distribution system. CV-19 has not made it easy for companies like Northern to put new products in front of Keystone, Motorstate, Summit, etc., hence the delay. It's frustrating on our side as well.

[CarlC]

These are available on-line now through Dillon Radiator. https://www.ebay.com/sch/m.html?_ssn=dillonradiator&LH_PrefLoc=&_from=R40&_trksid=p2499338.m570.l1313.TR11.TRC1.A0.H0.Xpwm.T RS0&_nkw=pwm&_sacat=0

[G Atsma]

I'm thinking seriously of using this controller to run a 05-07 GM truck fan assembly in my 04 Tahoe.
I would love to hear from anyone who is now using it in their vehicle.
Thanks in advance!

[Build-It-Break-It]

I just installed one on a customers C10 truck recently. The few things I don't like but aren't a deal breaker are, the temp wire is short and the location they require you to mount it doesn't leave a lot of room to route the wire/ temp sender. The temp sender wires seem to delicate but might last. It requires a super tiny diode to be wired in to use ac fans. Seems like this should of been done by manufacturer ahead of time. Id like to be able to mount this box anywhere much like the vaporworks box but it requires you to mount it inside here fan surround between the fans. The box feels cheap but that doesn't say anything about the product because it works. This is all just my opinion so take it for what it is. Not trying to bash it. Id use it again because it works.

The things I do like is, there's no power surge, the fans come on smoothly, the fans stay on momentarily when you shut the car/ truck off cooling the radiator down, this system worked right out of the box.

Ahmad

[G Atsma]

I just installed one on a customers C10 truck recently. The few things I don't like but aren't a deal breaker are, the temp wire is short and the location they require you to mount it doesn't leave a lot of room to route the wire/ temp sender. The temp sender wires seem to delicate but might last. It requires a super tiny resistor to be wired in to use ac fans. Seems like this should of been done by manufacturer ahead of time. Id like to be able to mount this box anywhere much like the vaporworks box but it requires you to mount it inside here fan surround between the fans. The box feels cheap but that doesn't say anything about the product because it works. This is all just my opinion so take it for what it is. Not trying to bash it. Id use it again because it works.

The things I do like is, there's no power surge, the fans come on smoothly, the fans stay on momentarily when you shut the car/ truck off cooling the radiator down, this system worked right out of the box.

Ahmad
It is not necessary to mount it inside the shroud. It should have come with a hat-shaped bracket to mount it on any flat surface that has some cooling airflow around it to keep the box cool. Also, I never read of any resistor needed in the A/C signal wire, but a diode(included) is needed for the key-on power wire if used.
Where did you get yours?

[Build-It-Break-It]

It is not necessary to mount it inside the shroud. It should have come with a hat-shaped bracket to mount it on any flat surface that has some cooling airflow around it to keep the box cool. Also, I never read of any resistor needed in the A/C signal wire, but a diode(included) is needed for the key-on power wire if used.
Where did you get yours?

Oops i meant diode. I'll correct that.


I got it from northstar i believe off Ebay where I was told to purchase it by Carl himself.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Z18350-NORT...EAAOSwLN5e48q-

It clearly states the box is to mount inside the fan shroud. It didn't say outside was permitted or ok due to air flow.

I do my installs based on instructions not assumptions, you run into problems down the road not following directions. Number 2 of the instructions is what I went off.

Mounting it inside the shroud makes the temp sensor wiring to short. With a twin fan set up the mounting points are limited placing the box inside the shroud using the required bracket.

Ahmad

[CarlC]

I'll discuss with Northern about changing the verbiage. It's no problem to mount the controller to the bracket supplied. Mainly the controller needs to be mounted to something to act as a heat sink. The Northern bracket does that just fine. From an overall cooling area standpoint the plate used in the Camaro is smaller than the Northern bracket. It doesn't take much airflow to keep the controller happy.

The wiring for the sensor can be extended or, if you would prefer, I can make another sensor assembly with a longer wire. For some applications the wiring may be too long, others too short. It's hard to judge what will work for everyone.

As for the the size and type of wiring, what dictates that becomes a decision tree based on many factors, primarily the temperature sensor. The sensor needs to be low-mass so that as the temperature on the return tank changes, the sensor changes with it. The higher the mass, the slower the reaction. Too much mass means the sensor is always a ways behind the actual temperature and will cause improper function of the fan speed.

The wiring for the temp sensor is a duplex pair. There are very few small gauge duplex pair options that meet the UL94 ratings needed that we require. Too large of a wire means putting excess strain on connections and the sensor. Like any wiring job, being careful during installation and providing good support/strain relief goes a long way toward long-term reliability.

The box is made of Noryl, a GE plastics material. It was chosen due to its excellent electrical resistance properties, high temperature threshold, and easy machinability. We have to have them custom made to meet a minimum order quantity since Noryl is not a normal offering.

[G Atsma]

Good stuff!
Thank you Ahmad and Carl for replying and clarifying any misconception.
I think we are mostly on the same page here.
Ahmad- the diode is for the 12v key-off shutdown wire, not A/C

[anguilla1980]

Good stuff!
Thank you Ahmad and Carl for replying and clarifying any misconception.
I think we are mostly on the same page here.
Ahmad- the diode is for the 12v key-off shutdown wire, not A/C

Hey G, where in central Cali are you? I'm in Bakersfield.

[G Atsma]

I'm just about 6 miles east of Hanford.
Are you in town or out in the country?

[anguilla1980]

I'm just about 6 miles east of Hanford.
Are you in town or out in the country?

Ah, so just West of the 99. I used to have a lot of friends who lived in Lemoore over the years. I'm at the very SW of town.

[CarlC]

Yep, the diode is to be used only on the green wire if the fans are to turned off at ignition-off. The way it works is that at IGN-OFF the green wire is then effectively attached to ground through various pathways (bulbs, etc) that forces the controller off. I've grown used to and expect the fan in the Camaro to be on, slowly, for a minute or so after key-off. Plus, it's one less thing to wire.

The AC over-ride can be attached to the compressor clutch or the trinary switch. If connected to the trinary the switched input, which is normally ground, should be changed to IGN+.

[G Atsma]

Thank you Carl! Yeah, the power-off thing springs from decades-old paranoia about things being on after shutdown. Dying batteries, etc....

[G Atsma]

Another angle- any thoughts of putting a temp adjusting pot on these, similar to what DCC uses on his own branded units?

[Build-It-Break-It]

It looks like a comment was deleted by another member from this thread but he suggested that the option of the temp sensor would be given upon purchase.

As of right now a sensor with a different temp rating is an add on which doesn't make sense.

[G Atsma]

That might have been me. I deleted two posts as I figured the one above more closely aligned with my thinking. I agree, having to buy ANOTHER sensor at additional cost if the 180 one isn't right for the application seems silly.
DCC's controllers use an adjusting pot to vary temperature. I was wondering if that wasn't possible on this unit.

[novadude]

The wiring for the sensor can be extended or, if you would prefer, I can make another sensor assembly with a longer wire. For some applications the wiring may be too long, others too short. It's hard to judge what will work for everyone.



Carl - when you say that the wiring for the sensor can be extended, are you talking about just cutting the terminal off and soldering on an extra length of wire between the sensor and the terminal? If I wanted to make a plug-n-play sensor wire extender, can you direct me to the proper terminal ends? If I know what they are, I might be able to find them from some source (online, NAPA, etc). My controller is in transit to me. Thanks!

[OldTimer]

No to confuse anyone, but this is a diagram that I made so I have something to follow with regard to tying the PWM in to my Vintage Air Trinary Switch:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2020/11/AvKvCgR-1.jpg

I am going to rmake one major modification... and that's to use a two (2) post Junction Block and split it with a Relay. One post will be hot 100% of the time, the other will be Switched by the ignition. Going to use the relay to send the power (w/inline fuse) to the 2nd post when the ignition is on. Will run a #8 AWG (with a #12 AWG fusible link) from the + battery terminal to the primary post on the Junction Block. Will feed the relay Pin 30 with a short #8 AWG, and Pin 87 will connect to the 2nd post. Pin 86 on the relay will be connected to a 12v Switched Ignition source with #14 AWG, and Pin 87 will be connected to a chassis ground. Hopefully, this will give me an accessible 12v switched source for the Trinary switch, and also the PWM (unless Carl says "NO").

My eFans are wired with #10 AWG on the Positive and #12 AGW on the Negative, and I used Delphi Metri-pack 280 plugs so if need be, I can remove the fan shroud with the fans mounted and their "harness" without having to disconnect from the PWM. I'm still trying to figure out where I can get a 12v source for a eFan LED indicator that's mounted in my dash.



Mike

[rchaskin]

That is a nice diagram!!

[CarlC]

Carl - when you say that the wiring for the sensor can be extended, are you talking about just cutting the terminal off and soldering on an extra length of wire between the sensor and the terminal? If I wanted to make a plug-n-play sensor wire extender, can you direct me to the proper terminal ends? If I know what they are, I might be able to find them from some source (online, NAPA, etc). My controller is in transit to me. Thanks!

The connector is an MTE connector, for sure nothing an auto parts store will have.

The easy way is just to cut the duplex wire and add in the lengths needed. Crimp/solder + heat shrink are your friend. To make sure it's all working okay, check the resistance at the end of the small plug. Using two small pins or wires, use an ohmmeter to check the resistance across the two wires. Depending on the temperature it may be around 100ohms or so. Grab the sensor with your fingers and note how quickly the resistance changes. If it's doing all of that, you're good to go.

[CarlC]

(unless Carl says "NO"). Mike

"NO". ;-)

The PWM is effectively a high speed, high power, relay. Most standard relays to not have sufficient power to handle two fans and may cause controller malfunction.

[novadude]

The connector is an MTE connector, for sure nothing an auto parts store will have.

The easy way is just to cut the duplex wire and add in the lengths needed. Crimp/solder + heat shrink are your friend. To make sure it's all working okay, check the resistance at the end of the small plug. Using two small pins or wires, use an ohmmeter to check the resistance across the two wires. Depending on the temperature it may be around 100ohms or so. Grab the sensor with your fingers and note how quickly the resistance changes. If it's doing all of that, you're good to go.

Perfect! Thank you!

[OldTimer]

"NO". ;-)

The PWM is effectively a high speed, high power, relay. Most standard relays to not have sufficient power to handle two fans and may cause controller malfunction.

LOL... Thanks Carl. I feel like Sister Superior just whacked my wrist with her 12" Acme solid oak ruler! Again! Happened a lot, I used to make fun of her mustache.

Thanks for the reply, I'm going to use all the recommended wires, probably use 18AWG to connect to the compressor.

I'm going to use Stinger type battery terminals which have two (2) connection ports (had them sitting in my parts bin). The ports have an Allen head crush screw, and I'll put the 2/0 power and 2/0 ground in one of the ports on each terminal, will put the PWM 10AWG in the secondary port along with the jumper 8AWG to the Junction Block, both will have correct size fusible links.

Mike

[G Atsma]

The trinary switch idea intrigues me. How would I wire it in with your control on my 04 Tahoe?
Forgive me if this is a dumb question, but I know ZIP about trinary switches.

[G Atsma]

Anyone have an answer?

[andrewb70]

Anyone have an answer?

The two poles that close at 265psi would be wired to switch a power signal to the fan controller.

[G Atsma]

The two poles that close at 265psi would be wired to switch a power signal to the fan controller.
Andrew, good to hear from you!
Excuse my ignorance, are you meaning hook them to the "A/C wire" of the controller harness? One to the wire, the other to ground?
And which of the 4 trinary terminals are you speaking of?
I don't have one to look at to tell the difference.
If there is a wiring diagram to look up, please let me know.

[andrewb70]

There is a diagram here:

https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/132334-LS3-amp-Vintage-Air-Wiring

[G Atsma]

OK, I think I see how it works with a relay-type of fan controller.
I think that Carl's PWM controller uses grounds a bit differently.
How does the trinary hookup differ in the context of the PWM controller?
Again, please forgive any ignorance exhibited here.
And Carl, feel free to chime in here!
I just need some clarification before I buy anything to avoid doing something wrong.
Thank you, Andrew!

[G Atsma]

Looking at OldTimer's drawing above and extrapolating it with the one in the provided link, the blue wires connect to a 12V keyed source for input, and then go to the A/C input wire on the PWM controller. The green/black output wire feeds the A/C clutch, and I BELIEVE the green/black input connects to an A/C signal wire.
How many amps are needed to feed the A/C clutch?

[CarlC]

To be clear, the trinary switch when used in the VA setup is originally intended to supply a ground signal to a relay. The relay then provides power to the fan(s).

When using the PSM controller the relay is no longer used. So, instead of providing a ground signal to turn on the fan(s), we suggest changing from ground to an IGN+ signal on the trinary to feed the blue AC override wire on the PSM controller. This will turn fan(s) on to 50% power minimum.

https://j.hmjimg.com/2020/12/12/Trinary.png (https://www.hostmyjunk.com/image/g1fvZ)

If using an OEM trinary switch in an OEM application, care should be exercised since IF the trinary switch is switching a ground it may be doing something else besides controlling the fan circuit. It would likely be best in this case to use the AC clutch. If the trinary is switching IGN+, then using the output routed to the PSM blue wire should be fine.

The PSM controller needs very little power on the blue AC override wire to function. The AC clutch power system won't even know it's there.

[G Atsma]

Given what you say about the real reason VA uses the trinary, do you consider it worthwhile to try to use the trinary for fan control, or am I just as well (or better) off using the A/C clutch signal to directly command the fans "on" when A/C is used? It would be much simpler.

[CarlC]

Either will work but the trinary is a more elegant method.

[G Atsma]

Either will work but the trinary is a more elegant method.
OK, thank you!
Within the context of your drawing above and my 04 Tahoe, is the best place to connect the green/black wires right to the power wire to the compressor clutch?
In other words, cut the power wire and connect the ends to the green/black wires?

[Chevy Kid]

Given what you say about the real reason VA uses the trinary, do you consider it worthwhile to try to use the trinary for fan control, or am I just as well (or better) off using the A/C clutch signal to directly command the fans "on" when A/C is used? It would be much simpler.


Its always much better to control the fans with a trinary switch. Having the fans on whenever the clutch is engaged is unnecessary and puts undue drag on the fan motor/ electrical system not to mention it will run when on the highway which causes even more problems.

[G Atsma]

After doing a little research, I discovered my 04 Tahoe has a low pressure switch on the accumulator, plus a high pressure cutout switch on the back of the compressor.
Between the two switches, the compressor is protected from pressure irregularities.
That being the case, I only need the fan activation function the trinary would offer, so actually, wouldn't a binary pressure switch in the high pressure side serve the purpose?
If so, please advise.
I don't want to compromise the present system in any way.

[G Atsma]

Thank you Carl, for helping me with answers to my questions above.
Where does one buy a 250 psi binary switch?

[CarlC]

Vintage Air may have something universal that may work.

[G Atsma]

Thank you Carl, I'll check them out!

[G Atsma]

The binary switch with switching "on" pressures closest to 254psi specified above is Four Seasons #35761 with switching "on" pressure of 235psi, and cutout pressure of 325psi. Would that be acceptable?

[OldTimer]

Carl (or anyone else using this PWM)... gonna fire it up for the first time today. Question: When the key is in the "ON" position, should I expect the fans to be turning at half speed or will they remain off until the engine warms to 180 degrees?

Mike

[dhutton]

As far as I know they will be off unless commanded on by the coolant temperature or the AC.

Don

[G Atsma]

As far as I know they will be off unless commanded on by the coolant temperature or the AC.

Don
From what I have read and what Carl has said, I believe this is correct.

[OldTimer]

Everything went OK on the initial startup on Thursday afternoon. Fans were cycling and no leaks LOL. The engine was running a little warm 200°-210° and I knew I had to burp the system because I had drained a lot of coolant and replaced all the hoses, the thermostat, the water pump, the radiator and of course the Vintage Air. After I shut the car down the fans ran fro a little while then shut down.

So yesterday I used one of those funnel gadgets that locks into the filler neck and added about 3/4 gallon (all I had on hand), turned on the heat, and the air bubbles came up. Let it run for 15-20 minutes and temp was about 190° just sitting in the driveway. So then I shut it down, removed the funnel, fluid was about 1" below the top of the core. Put the cap back on and ran it a little more. Temp was hovering between 180-190 and the dual fans went from half speed at 180 to full speed at 190. Then the fans seemed stuck on high speed. I shut the engine down, and the fans continued to run (which I expected) but still at high speed. A while back I set up the upper plumbing and used a KillerGlass tube. I've had them on a couple of rides, love the idea of seeing the coolant actually flowing. Driven thousands of miles with them and never had an issue.

185862

I figured I'd wait and see so I decided to move my snow blower out of the garage and back to my lawn shed. Thought it over and said leave it out on the patio bc its still March and up here in Western Mass we've had snow after Easter sometimes. Plus I would want to add stabilizer to whatever gas is in there.

Got back to the garage and the fans were still running at high speed after 15+ minutes. Turned on the ignition and the temp gauge said 140°. So I pulled the two plugs that connect the fans to the PWM. I used Delphi waterproof connectors.

185861

The fans shut down, and I grabbed my probe test light, grounded one end, touched the PWM side contacts, they were live. This morning I pulled the plug for the radiator sensor, and checked again... no light. So I'm wondering if its a bad sensor or something is going on inside the PWM. I sent Carl an email with some pix and a video of it running, had to use Mail Drop, haven't heard from him yet.

Anyone else experience anything weird like this?

Mike

[G Atsma]

Is the sensor on the lower end of the tank, below the filler?
I'm wondering if it's possible some coolant spilled, ran down the tank, and got in the sensor, shorting it.
I'm not sure that is possible, but just thought of it.

[OldTimer]

Yes... The sensor is at the bottom of the tank on the passenger's side and the filler cap is maybe 18" above it. Very possible some coolant dripped down, but wouldn't that sensor be waterproof? Its maybe 12" from the ground and although I don't drive in the rain, you'd think it wouldn't be affected by any liquids.

Mike

[G Atsma]

My thought on that is that maybe the sensor might be defective in the sense that stray liquids might have shorted it when in fact that should not happen.
Just shooting from the hip here. Hopefully Carl might chime in with some reality, lol.
Do you have any pics of the module install? I'm bouncing between this unit and the DCC FK45. I like the temp adjustability on the FK45.

[OldTimer]

My thought on that is that maybe the sensor might be defective in the sense that stray liquids might have shorted it when in fact that should not happen.
Just shooting from the hip here. Hopefully Carl might chime in with some reality, lol.
Do you have any pics of the module install? I'm bouncing between this unit and the DCC FK45. I like the temp adjustability on the FK45.

Here's a couple of pix, nothing special. I covered the wires with split seam Tech-Flex braid, made the loom long enough to tuck under the battery tray and be able to pull out to access the connectors. Because I have a rats nest of wiring going on along side the battery, and a pretty big black box module that controls the RS headlight motors, I mounted the PWM on the fender well so I could access it without removing the battery.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2021/03/kI26MPP-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2021/03/Or6EcZc-1.jpg


https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2021/03/UpNQIWk-1.jpg

Thats the general layout, the Dual Contour fans seem to be working great, a lot of air is flowing. I think once I resolve what's going on with the PWM, I'm gonna be pretty happy with the setup. The fans are loud at full speed with the hood open and me walking around the car, but at low speed the engine makes more noise than the fans. Time will tell when I'm on the highway LOL. If you have any questions I'll do my best to answer them.

Mike

[G Atsma]

Much appreciated! The pics also put the physical size in perspective. smaaaalll!
You did a clean job putting it together. It's amazing how simple the wiring actually is. Much simpler than doing relays! PWM does cost more, but it is such an elegant solution to a simple situation.
Mike, thanks again for putting up the pics!
Gary

Edit- I notice you have A/C. How did you wire that? Compressor+ or binary/trinary?
I'm thinking of running switched 12V thru a binary to the A/C blue wire on the module.

[BK2LIFE]

is there a comparison between multiple PWM controllers?
i have been using autocoolguy.com for a few years, and just wondering if there is a better system, or do they all do the same thing. ?

[OldTimer]

Much appreciated! The pics also put the physical size in perspective. smaaaalll!
You did a clean job putting it together. It's amazing how simple the wiring actually is. Much simpler than doing relays! PWM does cost more, but it is such an elegant solution to a simple situation.
Mike, thanks again for putting up the pics!
Gary

Edit- I notice you have A/C. How did you wire that? Compressor+ or binary/trinary?
I'm thinking of running switched 12V thru a binary to the A/C blue wire on the module.

Gary... The PWM is very small, its less than 3" square and maybe 3/4" thick (I don't have it in front of me). If I didn't have a stainless cover for the area forward of the core support, I probably would've put it there. Here's a diagram of my wiring up front. The only thing missing in this drawing is I wired in a relay to bring 12v switched power to the upper post of the 2-Post Jegs Junction Block. I used a VA Trinary switch and the Blue wire coming from the PWM is connected to the Trinary as is the Compressor wire. The other Blue wire goes to the 12v Switched Post on the Junction Block. I'm sorting out a few minor things and the car isn't road-worthy yet plus this fan thing has to work correctly or Im not getting on the road.

The Relay setup is fairly simple and it gives me good solid 12v Switched Power right at the junction Block because when the key is turned, current is coming right from the 12v "Hot" post via a 8 AWG 12" wire and its fused as well. I combined a couple of sketches, think this is what I have LOL. Relay and PWM are both mounted in close proximity to the battery, 2-post junction block, and the HD chassis ground.

185899

If its puzzling, I apologize... ask any questions and I'll try to give you my best answer.

Mike

[G Atsma]

is there a comparison between multiple PWM controllers?
i have been using autocoolguy.com for a few years, and just wondering if there is a better system, or do they all do the same thing. ?
Right now there aren't really very many, though it is known that Derale's PWM controller has durability issues, so should be avoided. There are a few others, but with very low amp draw capacity, and really don't apply to the caliber of setup prevalent here.
Autocoolguy seems to do very well, along with DCC's units.
DCC (Brian Baskin), along with Carl Casanova of Vaporworx fame co-engineered the unit featured in this thread. If it proves as good as the DCC proprietary units, there should be no issues.
Hope this helps!

[G Atsma]

Thank you Mike! It took a bit of visual untangling, but I got it! LOL
I see you went via the trinary. Once I figured out how they worked, I deduced that I needed only a binary to enable A/C actuation of the fans. My A/C system already had high/low pressure switch compressor protection, so I saw no reason to interfere with them. I only needed to actuate the fans, and a binary will work nicely, and elegantly.
Thanks again, Mike!
This is a great forum!

[OldTimer]

I've had lotsa' help from this forum and Team Camaro as well. Not only did Carl do his best to explain the wiring to me, but guys like Larry DuBois and many others who are regulars in both forums make them a treasure trove of knowledge and experience. These guys are better than a Chilton's LOL.-Mike

[G Atsma]

I've had lotsa' help from this forum and Team Camaro as well. Not only did Carl do his best to explain the wiring to me, but guys like Larry DuBois and many others who are regulars in both forums make them a treasure trove of knowledge and experience. These guys are better than a Chilton's LOL.-Mike
I have to agree. I'm also on LS1tech, and have learned so much there! Forums like these are great! And now here the education continues.
I always liken forums to a row of garages where we can browse up and down the row, stopping off to check out projects and shoot a little BS, etc.
It's a good thing....

[asicerik]

Hi Mike - new user here, Erik. I have just installed one of these units and I am having the same problem. The fans turned on the first time I engaged the A/C input control wire, and have never shut off since. I have removed power a whole bunch of times, waited overnight, etc. I even removed all inputs to the unit except the power, gnd and fan connections. Same thing.
I spoke with Northern and they said to return it. I am a little more concerned now as this does not seem to be a one-off.
Did you get your issue resolved?
Thanks a lot,
Erik

[CarlC]

Sorry guys for the delay. Got hurt a while back and just now getting caught up.

Erik, I believe you are the person that Northern called me about. Did the controller stay on after the blue wire was completely disconnected from the AC compressor/trinary switch?

[asicerik]

Sorry guys for the delay. Got hurt a while back and just now getting caught up.

Erik, I believe you are the person that Northern called me about. Did the controller stay on after the blue wire was completely disconnected from the AC compressor/trinary switch?

Hi Carl, sorry about you getting hurt! Hope you are ok now.
Yes, that would be me. I disconnected everything from the unit except the three lugs. The fans come on as soon as power is applied. I tried connecting the blue to to power and ground as well, with no change. Is it possible the PWM circuit is stuck in the "on" phase?

I am mailing back the unit to get a replacement.

[G Atsma]

If possible, find out what failed in the controller.
Being that it shares most of its design with DCC controllers, and they are nearly bulletproof, I'm betting it is in the temp sensor since that component is different in operation than the normal DCC part.
Stay in touch!

[Build-It-Break-It]

I just had this fan controller fail on a customer car. It's the 3rd one I've installed but only one I've had problems with. At first it wouldn't turn on. Then it would turn on only at 205 degrees or not at all. The car got to hot on the dyno so they had to hook the fans up to direct power to bring the temps down. I looked at everything again after the dyno session and it's still only coming on at 205 or not at all. I'm going to have to send it back......

Ahmad

[G Atsma]

I'm starting to wonder if the stick-on temp sensor is acting up...

[Build-It-Break-It]

I'm starting to wonder if the stick-on temp sensor is acting up...

You might be right I installed all of them on brand new radiators, sanded the mounted area and cleaned it with lint free rag and acetone.

[G Atsma]

You might be right I installed all of them on brand new radiators, sanded the mounted area and cleaned it with lint free rag and acetone.
Sounds like you did it right! Actually I just had the sensor itself in mind, not so much any installation issues, though you can't excuse that altogether either. Can't wait to see what's going on.
I'm on the fence between this unit and the DCC FK45, which I like for its temperature sensor adjustability

[G Atsma]

Hi Carl, sorry about you getting hurt! Hope you are ok now.
Yes, that would be me. I disconnected everything from the unit except the three lugs. The fans come on as soon as power is applied. I tried connecting the blue to to power and ground as well, with no change. Is it possible the PWM circuit is stuck in the "on" phase?

I am mailing back the unit to get a replacement.
I'm curious to see what happened with this unit. Nothing new?

[asicerik]

I'm curious to see what happened with this unit. Nothing new?

I sent the old unit back, and just received a new one today. I don't know if anyone will let me know what the issue was with the first one.

[G Atsma]

Well, let's hope this one is good. I would bet the old one makes its way back into Carl's possession to see what's what. OR to DCC/Brian Baskin, its designer.
Keep us in the loop on any updates, if you don't mind.
Thanks man!

[asicerik]

Well, let's hope this one is good. I would bet the old one makes its way back into Carl's possession to see what's what. OR to DCC/Brian Baskin, its designer.
Keep us in the loop on any updates, if you don't mind.
Thanks man!

I will for sure. I hope we get to find out what the issue was. All the specs on the unit make it sound like it should be pretty hard to use in "the wrong way".

[G Atsma]

Well, let's just hope it was a fluke, whatever it ends up being.

[asicerik]

Ok, got my replacement controller today and it seems to work properly. I can see now that the soft start on the old controller was not working. Now I hear that high-pitched whine as the fans come on. I tested with the temp sensor (using a heat gun) and the aux input.

Carl - if you are reading this, I do have a question on the ignition cutoff circuit. I will have mine connected to a relay vs. an actual ignition / powered circuit. I am guessing that will not work without a resistor to ground. If so, what is a good value to use? I have some 2W 200ohm guys laying around, or a ton of 1/4W guys if it is a higher resistance.

Also, if you get your hands on the unit I sent back, I would love to know what the issue with it was.

Thanks!

[CarlC]

I just had this fan controller fail on a customer car. It's the 3rd one I've installed but only one I've had problems with. At first it wouldn't turn on. Then it would turn on only at 205 degrees or not at all. The car got to hot on the dyno so they had to hook the fans up to direct power to bring the temps down. I looked at everything again after the dyno session and it's still only coming on at 205 or not at all. I'm going to have to send it back......

Ahmad

Sorry for the troubles Ahmad. It is for sure odd that it only turns on at 205*. When it does come on, does the controller soft-start and vary the fan speed to maintain temperature? Also, what temperature thermostat and what temperature sensor does the car have?

I did get Mike's back and it had a blown input FET. We don't know why it failed. Getting the controller apart is very difficult since it is an epoxy assembly, and that stuff does not come off easy.

- - - Updated - - -


Ok, got my replacement controller today and it seems to work properly. I can see now that the soft start on the old controller was not working. Now I hear that high-pitched whine as the fans come on. I tested with the temp sensor (using a heat gun) and the aux input.

Carl - if you are reading this, I do have a question on the ignition cutoff circuit. I will have mine connected to a relay vs. an actual ignition / powered circuit. I am guessing that will not work without a resistor to ground. If so, what is a good value to use? I have some 2W 200ohm guys laying around, or a ton of 1/4W guys if it is a higher resistance.

Also, if you get your hands on the unit I sent back, I would love to know what the issue with it was.

Thanks!

Besides the controller connection, what else is being powered by this circuit/relay?

[asicerik]

Hi Carl - nothing else is on this circuit. This is an unused fuel pump relay. I have a eRod LS3, and this is a circuit in the fuse relay box, so it was convenient to grab.
Erik

[CarlC]

If you want to try a resistor, use something between 2.2k - 10k ohm, 1/4w. One end to ground, one end to the green wire that is attached to the controller/relay.

[asicerik]

If you want to try a resistor, use something between 2.2k - 10k ohm, 1/4w. One end to ground, one end to the green wire that is attached to the controller/relay.

Excellent. Thanks Carl, will do.

[Build-It-Break-It]

Hey Carl , the motor has a 185 thermostat. It does soft start. Sometimes it would only come on with the key turned off even tho the unit was wired to direct battery power. It did slowly change speed yes.

I haven't got the vehicle back because I've been working on another car. I won't have the car back for a couple of months to look at the controller or send it back. It'll just be a headache to remove the box because of the rivets.

[OldTimer]

Carl...

I've had some issues with a tiny weeping (a teaspoon) of coolant at the thermostat elbow, I suspect its O-Rings not seating but I'll get it sorted out eventually. Anyway, just a heads up... in the process of draining and refilling I've noticed that while I try to be careful, a few drops of coolant went down the side of the radiator and it immediately wreaks havoc on the sensor, fans go on even though engine is not running and ice cold. Should I smear a glob of clear silicone over the sensor and over to the aluminum? I think once it dries well it'll be functional again. If not I'll peel it off and switch sensors.

Mike

[OldTimer]

Just a heads up on my setup. I've taken a couple of "test rides" of about 30-40 minutes and the new controller does kick on the two fans at around 185°-190° with the new 180° EMP/Stewart 301. I did about a two mile section of highway at 65 mph, ran the cloverleaf and double back. Car was at about 200° when I got off the city streets and onto the highway, fans were running, temp dropped to about 195° on the highway, fans continued to run. Local temp was 93° when I went out for the ride. For the past 5-6 years I had run the car with a 160° thermostat and at 65 mph on a hot day like that it would normally run 175°-185° as long as I was moving. Get in traffic and it would jump to 210° and over, and that was with the stock fan and radiator. Wondering if I need a 195° sensor so the fans would kick off at 65 mph?

I haven't covered the sensor with silicon yet because I may change it. But like I said previously, the stick on sensors are affected by any moisture that gets in there. I also installed high density foam all around the radiator to close the gaps between the core support and the radiator.

Mike

Mike

[OldTimer]

Another update: The new PWM seems to work just fine, so thank you Carl for shepherding that. I got the car DMV inspected this week (it passed) and then on Tuesday I got the Vintage Air charged and checked out. Turned out very good... system is pushing 51° air out the vent at idle on a 85° day with the windows down. The owner of the AC shop said the temp will probably drop to mid-40's at the vents at highway speeds with the windows up. On my way home I had the windows up and had to back down to half speed as it was plenty cool in the car. The AC compressor is triggering the fans and that's good too.

So I'm running a 180° EMP/Stewart thermostat and have the 180° sensor connected. Unfortunately, the car seems to want to run at 190-195 on the highway at 65 mph so the fans won't kick off. Chris Allen had an extra 195° sensor which he sent to me to try out. I placed the sensor 1/4" away from the 180 unit and ran the wire up to the PWM. Went for a drive and the fans didn't come on until about 235° and at that point the temp started going down. I pulled over and disconnected the 195 and reconnected the 180. I think the 195° sensor (brand-new in the Northern Bag) is flaky. My gut tells me that a 195 sensor if its working properly, might allow me to cruise at 65 mph without the fans running. Reason being is that one morning I got out on the highway just as the car hit about 160° and drove for a good 10 miles (no fans on) before the car eventually hit 180-185 and then the fans came on as I was slowing down and getting off the interstate. So it seems like there's enough airflow passing thru the condenser and radiator to keep the engine happy at 65, maybe at 185-90 which is perfect for a warm summer day. I have a Alpine LED indicator wired to the fans on my dash so I can tell when they're on.

191393

Prior to adding the Vintage Air, new Cold Case radiator, new fans, fan controller this same car with a 160° thermostat and no other engine mods ran typically at around 175-180 with the 4-core radiator, v-belt driven 7 blade fan and BBC shroud. The only time it would get up to 200-210 would be in stop/go traffic where the car was not moving more than 5 mph on a hot day. I suppose I could put the 160 thermostat back in and see what that does, but its my understanding that a BBC is quite happy running at 190-195 if I can get it there at highway speeds with the fans not being called on unless I switch on the AC. I did also re-install the upper closeout panel which has been off since I started with the VA install. I didn't want to put it on because I wanted the hard lines exposed when we charged the VA system for the first time. And I won't be driving the car for a couple of weeks now as I'm in a walking boot with a stress fracture and torn ligament.

191394

Mike

[G Atsma]

Man, that is CLEAN! Nicely done!

[OldTimer]

I have a question about a "test" I'd like to try, not 100% sure of how to do it correctly, maybe someone with more knowledge of electrical circuitry could tell me if it's feasible. What I'd like to do is come up with a way to disconnect the PWM and disable the fans while I'm driving. Ideally, I'd like a toggle switch under the dash that would either cut power to the PWM or the two fans while I'm driving at day... 65 mph.

So here's the deal... on a nice warm day, 85 degrees and sunny, I'm going down the highway at 65 mph, and my temp is at 200 degrees. Actually, that doesn't bother me but with a 195 sensor, the fans stay on continually. Once I slow down to under 35 and I'm in stop and go on local streets the temp goes up to about 215-220 max, and if I get back up to 40-45 the temp drops back to 200. So I'm wondering if the fans rpm is any kind of limiter for airflow thru the condenser, radiator and shroud. Funny thing is that if I pull over and open the hood, temp goes to about 200 and stays there at idle.

I'm wondering if the fans were off, would airflow increase at 65... and maybe the temp would drop to 195 or below? Disconnecting the fans manually under the hood is difficult with a hot engine. As an aside, one of my buddy's suggested I consider adding a pusher fan on the condenser, but if I did that, I'd still need a way to turn that fan on or off without blowing fuses. I think I have enough CFM from the two 12" fans and I know of someone using these exact fans on his almost identical 461 modified BBC with no problems. But he's got them mounted in an El Camino and there might be more airspace around the engine. Anyway, figuring out how to remotely shut off the PWM or the fans is step 1. -Mike

[G Atsma]

Which thermostat do you have in the car?

[OldTimer]

Right now there's a 180° EMP/Stewart in it. For the past several years, I had been running a 160° thermostat that the engine builder installed. That was with a v-belt setup and regular BBC shroud, fan, and 4 core radiator. The car never ran cooler than 170° and typically it ran between 170-185 on the highway regardless of air temp except in traffic where it would climb over 200 and dead still on a hot day in traffic it'd go to 220. Just for kicks, I tried the 160° thermostat and it stayed a little cooler longer but eventually creeped up to almost 200° and of course the fans kicked in. Driving on the highway was the same as with the 180 thermostat. No difference whatsoever. I do notice that if I get off the highway and putter around stop and go for a few minutes, it goes up to the 215-220, but the minute I hit highway speeds again it goes down to 200. So I know 200 isn't a bad temp for a BBC, its just nagging me wondering if the fan being on limits the amount of road air that can run thru the condenser/radiator. The radiator has a dozen flap openings as seen below:

192139

The engineers at BeCool actually sent me a metal template as a guide for the flap pins and layout. There's about 1/4" of aluminum in the middle that I left in because I was concerned about the flaps getting sucked in by the fans. I think its just another (minor) restriction. I may pull out the shroud and cut those centers out of the top section and see what happens. If they _do_ get pulled in then I will weld in a 1/8" aluminum wire across the span to prevent that.

192140

I calculated the amount of the opening relative to the overall 23" by 16" basic radiator core which is about 368 square inches. But two 12" openings equal about 226 square inches, then there's 24 additional openings which make for 37.5" square inches. So the total opening area right now is approximately 263.5 square inches. Eliminating the dividers would only give me just under 4 square inches which sounds useless, but in terms of air turbulence... maybe airflow would improve?

192141

The inside depth of the shroud is about .9500" and I have taken the time to seal off all four sides against the radiator so there's little chance of the fans pulling in engine air. I also have a full width forward core support cover and a hood pad that seals pretty close.

[G Atsma]

Hey Carl, in your literature there is mention of a 65 amp model besides the 40 amp one currently for sale. Is it still planned to make this one?

[G Atsma]

I think this thread is quite dead....

[asicerik]

I don't have my car on the road yet. When I do, I will post here to let everyone know how my controller is working.

[G Atsma]

I don't have my car on the road yet. When I do, I will post here to let everyone know how my controller is working.
Any news?

[asicerik]

Any news?
Sorry, not yet. Parts shortages have kept me off the road. I JUST received my glass which I ordered back in October last year. Car should be on the road in the next few weeks though I hope.

[G Atsma]

Sorry, not yet. Parts shortages have kept me off the road. I JUST received my glass which I ordered back in October last year. Car should be on the road in the next few weeks though I hope.
Any news here?

[Grayharemustang]

Hey Carl, in your literature there is mention of a 65 amp model besides the 40 amp one currently for sale. Is it still planned to make this one?

Hey G looks like your are 6 mile west of me. Have you purchased any of Vapor Worx stuff. I went all in by faith, without forum research. I picked up Carl's ReturnX Carb PWM, Fan Controller PWM and his Intelligent Relay controller.

it will be a little while before I get to see how it all works out.

[G Atsma]

I haven't. I'm planning on possibly using Brian Baskin's (DCC) new S50 Fan controller. It is simplified from the preceeding FK45.
Sorry I'm late with this. I rarely check this thread, but looks like I should more often.......
Are you in Visalia? I think you did well with buying Vaporworx stuff, his rep his very good!