Holley EFI tuning and wiring

[andrewb70]

Hello Everyone,

I think all of you know me by now as I have been a part of this great community since the early days.

Recently I have begun offering remote Holley EFI tuning services. This is something that I have been doing on the side, but am now expanding into a full-time operation. Unlike most tuner that focus on making a hero number on the dyno, my tuning focuses on enhanced drivability. This is something that a lot of tuners don't take the time to do, because it can be tedious and time consuming. However, there is nothing more important in a tune than having a solid idle and good driving manners.

I have been playing with various EFI systems since the early 1990s, when I installed an analog Holley EFI system on my GTO around 1991. I have attended all three tiers of the Holley EFI training and am well versed in all Holley systems. I have tuned Sniper, Terminator, Terminator X, HP and Dominators.

If you are considering converting any carbureted engines to EFI, or considering a Holley system for your LS, you can enlist my services before making the purchase decision. I can make recommendations and also offer wiring suggestions, which will make your installation reliable and smooth.

I am also moving to the Kansas City area in about a week and will be offering full car and EFI wiring services. This will be done as a mobile service, with me coming to you.

If you have any questions, please post them here, or send me a PM.

Andrew

[SSLance]

I've used not only Andrew's expert wiring advice during my Holley Terminator install but also his tuning service to get it dialed in perfectly. To be honest, it ran pretty good after the initial wizard setup but once Andrew and I worked through the details of the tune, it is flawless now. Andrew is very capable at reading data, listening to user input and using the info to dial in the tune.

I wish him luck with his impending move and the ramping up of his services.

[Sbeck09]

I gotta give a shout to Andrew's prowess as a tuner and being a knowledgeable resource for Holley EFI. I have a Dominator in my built SBF and it has been running amazing with his help. I live in AZ so this has all been 100% remote. I was nervous about paying someone across the country to tune my expensive engine, but he has made great suggestions throughout the process and been very respectful of my time and comfort level. If you follow his instructions you will be rewarded with a safe, but happy running engine. And his instructions all concern driving so it's kinda hard to hate that.

[TheJDMan]

Well I'm currently running an MSD Atomic EFI so I guess you can't help me much with that, but if I run across a NASCAR surplus Holley EFI I will be in touch guaranteed. Best of Luck with the tuning business! Too bad Lance moved from KC to AZ. I have to drive through KC every time we go home to visit family in KS and my brother currently lives in Lawrence so we are in the KC area pretty frequently. Al least with the Kansas Speedway there on I70 and SCCA based in Topeka at Heartland Raceway, you should have all sorts of autoX and track day events in easy driving distance.

[Tsaints1115]

Andrew has successfully tuned the Sniper on my Cougar. I won't have any issues calling on him again.

[eville]

Andrew has been a huge help in getting my Terminator TBI/Hyperspark install running great. He's helped troubleshoot and get the tune dialed in. Well worth the price for sure. Once I get back on track, he'll be helping me live tune my idle.

Andrew, I hope the move is smooth and everything you're looking for. If you ever find yourself out my way the first one is on me!

[CarlC]

Congrats on the new adventure(s)!

[andrewb70]

Thanks Carl!

And thank you for the amazing testimonials!

Andrew

[CTK]

Hi Andrew
So what’s your take on running a new never run terminator on a fresh engine build?

Hydro roller cam

[andrewb70]

Hi Andrew
So what’s your take on running a new never run terminator on a fresh engine build?

Hydro roller cam

It depends on ones level of confidence in their wiring and making an initial tune. There is also nothing wrong with stabbing a trusty HEI distributor and a known good carburetor, and using that for initial break in.

Andrew

[Sbeck09]

Hi Andrew
So what’s your take on running a new never run terminator on a fresh engine build?

Hydro roller cam

I did exactly this with a Dominator just before I started working with Andrew. Everything went fine, but I wish I had already been working with him because he would have helped me catch some things in the base map that would have made the first start even smoother. If you lack any confidence at all in your wiring or initial programming then you definitely want him hired before the first start.

[OLDFLM]

I can't say enough about Andrew's tuning and advice in general! I went from a barely driveable tricked out 950HP to a Holley Terminator TBI and Andrew helped every step of the way!

From his advice on designing the fuel system to putting me in touch with Carl at VaporWorx, his advice and tuning has truly been invaluable!

I put off going to EFI because I "knew" carbs and how to adjust timing etc, but I'm here to say I should have made the switch 10 years ago!

Andrew has truly transformed the car from a tempermental rowdy (fuel bowling) monster to a driveable, enjoyable car with predictable manners that still rips to redline and starts reliably (hot or cold) without issue!

Enlisting his services with your tuning or wiring needs will be the best investment you've ever made in your car!

[joeko23]

Congrats Andrew and best of luck to you!!

[andrewb70]

I can't say enough about Andrew's tuning and advice in general! I went from a barely driveable tricked out 950HP to a Holley Terminator TBI and Andrew helped every step of the way!

From his advice on designing the fuel system to putting me in touch with Carl at VaporWorx, his advice and tuning has truly been invaluable!

I put off going to EFI because I "knew" carbs and how to adjust timing etc, but I'm here to say I should have made the switch 10 years ago!

Andrew has truly transformed the car from a tempermental rowdy (fuel bowling) monster to a driveable, enjoyable car with predictable manners that still rips to redline and starts reliably (hot or cold) without issue!

Enlisting his services with your tuning or wiring needs will be the best investment you've ever made in your car!

A big part of the success here was Carl from VaporWorx and also John Parsons. John did the heavy lifting with installing the new fuel system and installing and wiring the Holley Terminator EFI.

Ty's engine doesn't make a lot of vacuum when idling, so it was a bit of extra work to rescale the load and RPM axes to get more resolution in the areas of the fuel and timing maps where this engine actually runs. I think Ty has more miles on this car since the recent round of upgrades and the tune than he had in the past 10 years since the car has been "professionally built."


Congrats Andrew and best of luck to you!!

Thank you Sir!

Andrew

[parsonsj]

I think Ty has more miles on this car since the recent round of upgrades and the tune than he had in the past 10 years since the car has been "professionally built."Ty's car was quite the mess when I first started working on it last summer. Wiring, plumbing, AC, etc. Lots of incomplete and incompetent work. It's vastly improved now with a custom 2.5" SS exhaust and X-pipe, working AC, power steering, working gauges, fans, torque converter, Vaporworx fuel delivery, and now the Holley EFI. The car fired up on the first try after the installation, and after we figured out the secondaries were cracked at idle, and that we had a bad fuel pump relay, I handed the tune over to Andrew. The car always had good "bones", and now it's got some muscle to go with them. :)

Andrew has improved the fuel economy from 6.5 mpg to nearly 10 over the past few weeks. The car just begs to be driven now, and Ty is obliging it!

[cwylie]

Andrew has been tuning my LSA setup in my 69. Its driveability is phenomenal and its running great. I would highly recommend him.

[968ls1]

Andrew tuned the Terminator X Max system on my 70 GTO to perfection, I have been fortunate enough to live close to him so he actually came to my house for the initial tune as well as recently doing some online "team viewer" tuning to fix an idle issue I had. I would never have imagined that my 500+rwhp hot rod would run and drive so nice and civil. Andrew has also tuned some of my friends cars here in Birmingham with the same satisfying results. I HIGHLY recommend his tuning services, he is not only extremely skilled but an awesome person to know and hang out with (did I mention he likes to eat some good food as well). See you at LS Fest Andrew and all the best to you and Karen on the move to Kansas.

[syborg tt]

Hi Andrew, I will be calling you hopefully soon as I have the new Holley Terminator X going in the 70 Camaro.

[andrewb70]

Hi Andrew, I will be calling you hopefully soon as I have the new Holley Terminator X going in the 70 Camaro.

Shoot me a PM when you're ready and I'll send my number. Looking forward to working with you.

Andrew

[rickpaw]

Good luck on your move and the new adventure Andrew.

[andrewb70]

Good luck on your move and the new adventure Andrew.

Thanks Tu, and thank you for your business!

I am also working with Jay on his 71 Camaro tune.

I hope everyone has a great weekend and please don't hesitate to be in touch for your tuning needs.

Andrew

[79 Camaro]

Andrew,

I'm considering a Mopar project and can't bring myself to swap in a LS so If I decide to build the car I'd go with a 360 stroked to 408. I want to go with some type of fuel injection system. What would you recommend? Not going to be a big cammed motor. Just good heads and lots of torque.

[andrewb70]

Andrew,

I'm considering a Mopar project and can't bring myself to swap in a LS so If I decide to build the car I'd go with a 360 stroked to 408. I want to go with some type of fuel injection system. What would you recommend? Not going to be a big cammed motor. Just good heads and lots of torque.

For a throttle body style injection, that retains the look of a carb, I like the new Holley Terminator X Stealth systems. They use the Terminator X (or X Max) ECUs and have a throttle body that most people will think is a Holley carburetor. I like these better than the Sniper systems because these mount the ECU outside of the engine compartment. I am pretty sure that Holley makes a Sniper distributor for a 360 and I would run that with the Sniper HyperSpark ignition box.

https://www.holley.com/products/fuel_systems/fuel_injection/terminator_x/terminator_x_and_x_max_stealth_4150/

I would also strongly consider installing a under hood power distribution center, which can be integrated with the Holley EFI. It will provide power for the ignition system, fuel pump, and cooling fan(s). The Terminator ECU will also support PWM fan control (there are various solutions for this) and I would encourage doing that.

I would combine this with a VaporWorx fuel system, using the 5th gen Camaro SS pump, which will have enough flow. With this system you don't need a fancy gas tank, any external regulator, or an inline filter. Carl makes a simple modification to these pump modules that makes them run at a constant 60psi. This system is installed in Ty's Firebird and it works awesome.

Andrew

[79 Camaro]

Andrew thanks for the reply.
I've done a number of LS swaps over the years using mostly GM components so FI doesn't scare me. I would use all Holley parts so the system is "integrated". When I did a LS swap I purchased the ecm and harness from one company so if there was a problem I had one company to talk to if there was problem.
I would completely rewire the car so a clean 12 volt source wouldn't be a problem. I hate old crappy old wiring.
What is the advantage of the PWM fan control? On my LS swaps the ecm turns on the fan (typically a 16" Spal with the biggest radiator I can fit) at 215 degrees on and off at 195 degrees.
The car I'm considering is a 74 Dart. Had one in high school. I don't know if the tank has a big enough flat spot for the VaporWorx fuel pump but in lieu of that I would go with a Tanks Inc tank with a 255 pump and C5 FPR.
Again I haven't bought the car yet just trying to gather info.
Thanks again for your reply and info,
Jim

[Sbeck09]

PWM = Pulse Width Modulation. Basically it very rapidly pulses the power on/off in a way that allows the fan motor to obtain full voltage and cause no damage, but by varying the "pulse width" or how long the pulses last you can vary the speed of the fans. This is standard in all new cars including for fuel pumps. It is also known to extend the life of electric motors because they aren't constantly running full tilt. The real advantage is that instead of your engine getting up to 215 and the fan running like crazy until it gets down to 195, the fan would come on slow at 200 and slowly increase in speed as the temp continues to climb and be full power at like 210. Then you could even slowly ramp the speed down as the temp decreases. This is good for your engine too because it keeps a more consistent operating temperature.

Hope that helps. I'm a huge fan of this technology. I use it for my fuel pump to extend pump life and reduce the amount of heat absorbed by the fuel. This is why Andrew recommends the Vaporworx 5th gen fuel system along with it now making the fuel system returnless.

[79 Camaro]

Again thanks for the info.

[Craig7515]

Have you ever tuned a system for E85?

[andrewb70]

Have you ever tuned a system for E85?

Yes with LSA blower. I tend to be fairly conservative. I focus on drivability more than extracting the last bit of power.

Andrew

[dhutton]

Yes with LSA blower. I tend to be fairly conservative. I focus on drivability more than extracting the last bit of power.

Andrew
Sounds like you need a driveway dyno! :)

Don

[andrewb70]

Sounds like you need a driveway dyno! :)

Don

I need a lot of things...lol

Andrew

[andrewb70]

If anyone has any questions, please do not hesitate to ask.

Andrew

[whitepark]

If anyone has any questions, please do not hesitate to ask.

Andrew

Thanks for sharing your knowledge. I have an LS3 in a 68 Camaro, Holley 4150 throttle body, Holley HP ECU. The IAC flares / ramps up on start up, with revs rising to 1700 rpm for about five seconds immediately upon start up, then drops back down to idle at about 1000 rpm. Could you offer any advice on how to lower the IAC start up ramping rpm please?

[andrewb70]

There is a parameter in the idle ICF that can be adjusted to fix this. Also your IAC park might be too high.

[whitepark]

Thank you Andrew

[JustJohn]

Is there a part number on that IAC? We make those for Holley too.

[gscherer78ta]

I'm late to the party here but, Andrew has helped me and my LS3 Terminator swap in my '78 TA. The LS3 is a GM crate motor rated to produce 533hp, last weekend I had a chance to dyno the car on a Dynojet and it pulled 410RWHP! With Andrew's help the driveability has been improved greatly and it's street manners are very good. Andrew is very responsive to my questions and he even provided assistance to a clutch issue I was having- nothing to do with the EFI system. It's been great working with Andrew!

[andrewb70]

Is there a part number on that IAC? We make those for Holley too.

I'll have to look up the number, but generally, on the 4150 style TBs Holley uses the Chrysler style IAC.

Andrew

[JustJohn]

I'll have to look up the number, but generally, on the 4150 style TBs Holley uses the Chrysler style IAC.

Andrew
I could probably ID it with a picture. The only market coverage we don't have is the BMW IAC. As you might guess, it's an overbuilt beast of an assembly.

[SSLance]

I'm late to the party here but, Andrew has helped me and my LS3 Terminator swap in my '78 TA. The LS3 is a GM crate motor rated to produce 533hp, last weekend I had a chance to dyno the car on a Dynojet and it pulled 410RWHP! With Andrew's help the driveability has been improved greatly and it's street manners are very good. Andrew is very responsive to my questions and he even provided assistance to a clutch issue I was having- nothing to do with the EFI system. It's been great working with Andrew!

Nicely done! I can't wait to get mine on a dyno once it's all back together.

[gscherer78ta]

Nicely done! I can't wait to get mine on a dyno once it's all back together.


Even better than the number from the dyno is the feeling I get when I press the pedal on track! A mix of terrified and happiness!!!!

[LastDeadLast]

I have to say, that with all the issues I was having with my 1965 Mustang, I was ready to sell it. Out of desperation, I reached out to him on the Holley forums website for help not even aware that Andrew did tuning.

Andrew not only fixed all the issues with my tune, he gave me great advice to re-architect my electrical system to fix a nasty ignition misfire. I also liked that he showed me what he did to the tune so I can make changes in the future rather than rely on others to do it for me. His time was probably the best money I've spent on that car.

I can't recommend Andrew enough.

-Shannon

[andrewb70]

I have to say, that with all the issues I was having with my 1965 Mustang, I was ready to sell it. Out of desperation, I reached out to him on the Holley forums website for help not even aware that Andrew did tuning.

Andrew not only fixed all the issues with my tune, he gave me great advice to re-architect my electrical system to fix a nasty ignition misfire. I also liked that he showed me what he did to the tune so I can make changes in the future rather than rely on others to do it for me. His time was probably the best money I've spent on that car.

I can't recommend Andrew enough.

-Shannon

Thank you Shannon!

Andrew

[andrewb70]

One of my customers was having some cooling issues, so I suggested using one of the new OEM brushless style SPAL fans. There are a couple of versions that fit many classic style radiators, but we settled on the C7 Corvette fan. It is rated at 600 watts and is an absolute beast. The issue with these fans is that they have a built in speed controller, and can't just be turned on with a simple relay.

The great part is that the Holley EFI systems (excluding Sniper) can output a signal that will allow these fans to operate at variable speed, based on engine temperature. It is also possible to integrate the AC into the fan control strategy and have fan speed settings for when the AC is on and when the AC is off. The other great part is that the C7 fan can be purchase new for about $200-$250 from various sources. This is a bargain, considering that the fan has a very powerful motor and has a built in controller.

So if you are starting from scratch, definitely consider one of these fans and a Holley EFI system, because ultimately the combination might cost less than other options.

Andrew

[yellow1098Greg]

Are there any services you can provide from out of state?

[OLDFLM]

Are there any services you can provide from out of state?

He does everything remote from out of state... and is Holley EFI trained/certified. You won't find anyone better, more knowledgeable, nor willing to help than Andrew!

[andrewb70]

Are there any services you can provide from out of state?

Greg, I have customers all over the country. Please don't hesitate to get in touch.


He does everything remote from out of state... and is Holley EFI trained/certified. You won't find anyone better, more knowledgeable, nor willing to help than Andrew!

Thanks Ty! Appreciate the kind words.

Andrew

[Tsaints1115]

He does everything remote from out of state... and is Holley EFI trained/certified. You won't find anyone better, more knowledgeable, nor willing to help than Andrew!

You forgot sexy.

[andrewb70]

you forgot sexy.

;-p

[70Uglybird]

Andrew is amazing, really seems to enjoy talking cars and helping out!!

[CapSS92]

I haven't used his tuning services but I follow Andrew on these forums and the Holley ones and he's always a great source of information. I'll be contacting you for a couple of remote tunes on an LS1 and an LS3, if I can ever finish them lol. BTW got anything on controlling the newer GM alternators? I saw Tick is working on a box but if I can run it off the Terminator X, that would be great.

Alex

[andrewb70]

I haven't used his tuning services but I follow Andrew on these forums and the Holley ones and he's always a great source of information. I'll be contacting you for a couple of remote tunes on an LS1 and an LS3, if I can ever finish them lol. BTW got anything on controlling the newer GM alternators? I saw Tick is working on a box but if I can run it off the Terminator X, that would be great.

Alex

Thanks for the kind words Alex. I believe there have been some threads on the Holley EFI forum about the PWM controlled alternators. I don't have experience, yet, but I'm sure it can be done. The down side is that you will use up one of the precious 4 outputs on the TerminatorX.

Andrew

[Stupidnewbie]

The C7 Corvette engine fan combined with the Holley system has me intrigued. Are there any threads with more info? I'm not having any luck searching the forum. I'm a long way off from engine tuning, but I plan to use a Sniper EFI and ignition system on my Pontiac motor. I'll keep you in mind when the time comes!

[andrewb70]

The C7 Corvette engine fan combined with the Holley system has me intrigued. Are there any threads with more info? I'm not having any luck searching the forum. I'm a long way off from engine tuning, but I plan to use a Sniper EFI and ignition system on my Pontiac motor. I'll keep you in mind when the time comes!

Unfortunately, the Sniper does not have the required PWM- output as an option. If you have not purchased a system yet, I would highly recommend going with the new Terminator X Stealth. It uses the Terminator X ECU, which does have the PWM- output available. Better still, do a multi-point system using an Edelbrock EFI intake, couple that with a dual-synch distributor, and Terminator X ECU, and have a fully sequential system on your Pontiac engine.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

Big announcement from Holley yesterday!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gIjXqs9kJY&feature=emb_logo

Andrew

[OLDFLM]

You warned me this would happen!

[andrewb70]

You warned me this would happen!

"That, Mr. Anderson, is the sound of inevitability..."

~~Agent Smith

[Chrisbequick]

Do you have any interest in trying to figure out a driveability issue on a small-block with an Edelbrock TBI system? I'm in the KC metro.

[andrewb70]

Do you have any interest in trying to figure out a driveability issue on a small-block with an Edelbrock TBI system? I'm in the KC metro.

Since you are local, I would be willing to give it a shot. Sending a PM.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

Really excited to be working with Herb on his Chevelle V2.0. Check out his build thread here:

https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/127424-Chevelle-2-0

I did a little idle tuning on it last week, and it sounds amazing!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfKlGE4RIe8

Andrew

[Mr Nick]

Andrew, do you have the pins/plugs necessary to shorten the universal harness that come with the Sniper, to a specified length?

[CarlC]

Unfortunately, the Sniper does not have the required PWM- output as an option. If you have not purchased a system yet, I would highly recommend going with the new Terminator X Stealth. It uses the Terminator X ECU, which does have the PWM- output available. Better still, do a multi-point system using an Edelbrock EFI intake, couple that with a dual-synch distributor, and Terminator X ECU, and have a fully sequential system on your Pontiac engine.

Andrew

Can the Sniper output a 0-5v signal based on engine temperature? Example:

185* = 1.5v
190* = 1.7v
195* = 1.8v

Etc.

[andrewb70]

Andrew, do you have the pins/plugs necessary to shorten the universal harness that come with the Sniper, to a specified length?

I don't sell any hardware. What exactly are you trying to do?

Andrew

- - - Updated - - -


Can the Sniper output a 0-5v signal based on engine temperature? Example:

185* = 1.5v
190* = 1.7v
195* = 1.8v

Etc.

Nope. The Sniper has 4 outputs that are simple ground side triggers.

Andrew

[Josh@Ridetech]

Andrew was awesome with my car. Extremely helpful and answered all of my stupid questions :). I actually need to send him a message again! lol

[andrewb70]

Can the Sniper output a 0-5v signal based on engine temperature? Example:

185* = 1.5v
190* = 1.7v
195* = 1.8v

Etc.

The HP and the Dominator ECUs can be configured to output a PWM+ signal, which would effectively do this, if the duty cycle math was figured out.

Andrew

[KCR]

Hi Andrew I have a 68 camaro with a 540 using Holley HP. Would like to see if you can help me get this running right.

[andrewb70]

Hi Andrew I have a 68 camaro with a 540 using Holley HP. Would like to see if you can help me get this running right.

Hi Ken.

I responded to your PM. Thanks for the interest.

Andrew

[silvermonte]

How does the mail tune in process work? I have a sniper on a 300hp ish sbc, its nothing fancy. Its hard to start , doesnt matter if its cold out or hot. I have to cycle the key 2 or 3 times and wait till the pump is done priming to get enough fuel in the system to start. Been messing with it for almost a year now and I honestly just want to throw the system in the trash.

[andrewb70]

How does the mail tune in process work? I have a sniper on a 300hp ish sbc, its nothing fancy. Its hard to start , doesnt matter if its cold out or hot. I have to cycle the key 2 or 3 times and wait till the pump is done priming to get enough fuel in the system to start. Been messing with it for almost a year now and I honestly just want to throw the system in the trash.

Miles,

I just sent you a PM.

Andrew

[Mr Nick]

I don't sell any hardware. What exactly are you trying to do?

Andrew

- - - Updated - - -



Nope. The Sniper has 4 outputs that are simple ground side triggers.

Andrew

I'd like to shorten the 'one size fits all' harness to a specified length so it fits better in the engine bay. I'm not looking to buy hardware. I'd like to send the harnesses to a professional to be shortened.

[andrewb70]

I'd like to shorten the 'one size fits all' harness to a specified length so it fits better in the engine bay. I'm not looking to buy hardware. I'd like to send the harnesses to a professional to be shortened.

Nick,

I sent you a PM.

Andrew

[CarlC]

Can the PWM signal voltage be fixed to a specific voltage, say 5v or 12v? If so, this will be super easy to use with a PSM fan controller.

Perhaps also build in tables that can control the fan when the AC is on as well?


The HP and the Dominator ECUs can be configured to output a PWM+ signal, which would effectively do this, if the duty cycle math was figured out.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

Can the PWM signal voltage be fixed to a specific voltage, say 5v or 12v? If so, this will be super easy to use with a PSM fan controller.

Perhaps also build in tables that can control the fan when the AC is on as well?

The PWM+ output is 12 volts. From there the fan control strategy can be configured in many ways and can certainly include the AC, VSS, and even oil temperature. It's just a matter of having the data as inputs to the ECU.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

If anyone needs some help, please reach out.

Andrew

[Oldsmoboogie]

I could use your help on my ls swapped 1988 trans am. It has a lq4, th350, 9” 4:11 gears, Holley hp. What is needed so you can remote tune it?

[andrewb70]

I could use your help on my ls swapped 1988 trans am. It has a lq4, th350, 9” 4:11 gears, Holley hp. What is needed so you can remote tune it?

Sending you a PM.

Andrew

[Bigblockscott]

Andrew,

I sent you a PM

[andrewb70]

Andrew,

I sent you a PM

Sent you an email.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

Halloween bump to the top :-)

Andrew

[Thatorange67]

I sent you a pm. I'd love for you to tune my car now. Its in need if your help.

[andrewb70]

I sent you a pm. I'd love for you to tune my car now. Its in need if your help.

Responded. Thanks for getting in touch.

Andrew

[79 Camaro]

Andrew,

I'm putting together my winter project. 1987 C10 short box. On my engine stand I have a 2012 L92. Corvette LS3 intake and DBW throttle body. Texas Speed cam. 225I/230E .600 lift with 114 cam centerline. I've done this combo before with a TKO 600 and it worked well with the GM ECM.
The C10 project will have an automatic. I leaning towards a built 4L60E as I have done in the past with other LS swaps. The kicker is that as I understand on the 2012 L92 I will need a ECM for the trans (and specific for the 2012) and one for the L92. The early model 4L60E like a 2002 Camaro uses are easy to find around here. 2012 4L60E's not so much. Can the Holley system integrate the 2002 Camaro 4L60E to the 2012 L92?
I don't want to build something weird just like to know your thoughts.

[andrewb70]

Andrew,

I'm putting together my winter project. 1987 C10 short box. On my engine stand I have a 2012 L92. Corvette LS3 intake and DBW throttle body. Texas Speed cam. 225I/230E .600 lift with 114 cam centerline. I've done this combo before with a TKO 600 and it worked well with the GM ECM.
The C10 project will have an automatic. I leaning towards a built 4L60E as I have done in the past with other LS swaps. The kicker is that as I understand on the 2012 L92 I will need a ECM for the trans (and specific for the 2012) and one for the L92. The early model 4L60E like a 2002 Camaro uses are easy to find around here. 2012 4L60E's not so much. Can the Holley system integrate the 2002 Camaro 4L60E to the 2012 L92?
I don't want to build something weird just like to know your thoughts.

The short answer is, yes. Something like the Terminator X Max would support what you are trying to do. It will have DBW and trans control.

Andrew

[79 Camaro]

Andrew thanks for the reply. With my combo listed above could you do a mail order tune with the Holley system?

[andrewb70]

Andrew thanks for the reply. With my combo listed above could you do a mail order tune with the Holley system?

It's not so much "mail" order as it is remote tuning. I used software to dial into your laptop remotely while we talk on the phone. That's how I tune idle. Before that even starts, I build a base tune based on your engine combination. The short answer, is yes, I can definitely help you.

Andrew

[79 Camaro]

Thanks again for your reply. I'm a big LS guy but always used the stock GM stuff because my builds were fairly mild. This project is again fairly mild but I'm kind of mixing and matching different years of LS stuff. No one local does any tuning. Mid to late November the tear down will start. Unlike previous projects it will be a "patina" build of a CA no rust C10. So I'm thinking mid March I will need some help. Thanks again.

[andrewb70]

Thanks again for your reply. I'm a big LS guy but always used the stock GM stuff because my builds were fairly mild. This project is again fairly mild but I'm kind of mixing and matching different years of LS stuff. No one local does any tuning. Mid to late November the tear down will start. Unlike previous projects it will be a "patina" build of a CA no rust C10. So I'm thinking mid March I will need some help. Thanks again.

Get in touch sooner than later. I can help with wiring and maybe other parts selection.

Andrew

[Oldsmoboogie]

Hi Andrew, this is Erik with the ls swapped TransAm. I have been looking into the low fuel pressure issue and i was trying to power the fuel pump with the green wire in the main harness. After rereading the instructions i should use that wire to trigger a relay for the Areomotive 340 pump. I am loosing almost 6 volts by the time it gets back to the pump! Should i install a relay back by the tank or in the engine bay and run a 8 gauge wire back to the tank? Thank you for your patience as i work the bugs out of this car.

[andrewb70]

Hi Andrew, this is Erik with the ls swapped TransAm. I have been looking into the low fuel pressure issue and i was trying to power the fuel pump with the green wire in the main harness. After rereading the instructions i should use that wire to trigger a relay for the Areomotive 340 pump. I am loosing almost 6 volts by the time it gets back to the pump! Should i install a relay back by the tank or in the engine bay and run a 8 gauge wire back to the tank? Thank you for your patience as i work the bugs out of this car.

Where is the battery?

[Oldsmoboogie]

In the stock location.

[andrewb70]

In the stock location.

I suspect you have a poor connection somewhere. You should not be loosing that much voltage.

[carbuff]

I think he's saying that he's using the wire from the ECU to power the pump which, if I remember correctly, is something small like an 18 gauge or so. If that's the case, it's not surprising he would drop voltage at the pump. That wire isn't meant to power the pump, just trigger a relay.

Whether the relay is close to the battery or close to the pump shouldn't matter as long as the wiring in and out is appropriate gauge. 8 gauge seems a bit much, but a good 12 gauge should do.

Depending on the rest of your setup, I also like the VaporWerx fuel pump controller. It regulates the voltage to the pump to keep from over-running the pump. It does require an additional fuel pressure sensor (preferrably near the fuel rail although I had mine near the pump) and some wiring, but it's not hard.

[andrewb70]

I think he's saying that he's using the wire from the ECU to power the pump which, if I remember correctly, is something small like an 18 gauge or so. If that's the case, it's not surprising he would drop voltage at the pump. That wire isn't meant to power the pump, just trigger a relay.

Whether the relay is close to the battery or close to the pump shouldn't matter as long as the wiring in and out is appropriate gauge. 8 gauge seems a bit much, but a good 12 gauge should do.

Depending on the rest of your setup, I also like the VaporWerx fuel pump controller. It regulates the voltage to the pump to keep from over-running the pump. It does require an additional fuel pressure sensor (preferrably near the fuel rail although I had mine near the pump) and some wiring, but it's not hard.

Bryan,

While what you say is accurate for the HP and the Dominator systems, the Terminator X systems have a 12 gauge fuel pump wire and the ECU can power a pump directly as long as it is rated under 15 amps. Although, reading back through Oldsmoboogie's question, it is not clear which system he is using.

I also agree with you on the use of the VaporWerx system. I always recommend it for all my customers if they enlist my services before making purchase decisions.

Andrew

[carbuff]

Ah, I did not know that... I can see how that simplifies the install. As such, I agree, that kind of drop doesn't make sense unless it's a pump running at much higher current...

[dhutton]

That pump consumes at least 15 amps which is right at the Holley limit and who knows how much margin they have in their design. I would add a relay to adds margin. Back when I was an engineer we would derate something like that 25-50%. Location is not important so long as you use suitable sized wire on the relay.

Don

[andrewb70]

That pump consumes at least 15 amps which is right at the Holley limit and who knows how much margin they have in their design. I would add a relay to adds margin. Back when I was an engineer we would derate something like that 25-50%. Location is not important so long as you use suitable sized wire on the relay.

Don

Using a relay is never a bad idea.

[andrewb70]

Public Service Announcement for today:

For the love of God, please do not use a huge cable throttle body unless your engine combination absolute demands it, in the higher RPM range. And even then, carefully evaluate how your vehicle will be used and determine if a few extra HP are worth the tuning and drivability issues that these big throttle bodies cause! Be extra mindful if you have a manual transmission car, because they are especially vulnerable to the negative effects.

Andrew

[carbuff]

For the love of God, please do not use a huge cable throttle body unless your engine combination absolute demands it, in the higher RPM range.


Want to clarify this a bit? Are you saying not to use a huge throttle body in general, or that it's OK to use a huge one as long as it's DBW? What does RPM range have to do with it?

And what negative effects are you referring to?

And finally, I am guessing you are thinking about the LS front TB style and not referring to a more traditional 4-barrel style large TB in a single/dual plane intake?

Curious what you're running into and felt the need for the PSA about. :)

[andrewb70]

....Are you saying not to use a huge throttle body in general, or that it's OK to use a huge one as long as it's DBW?



Using a large DBW throttle body is fine, even two throttle bodies can be made to have good drivability characteristics as long as it is DBW. Case in point, my Cougar. I use two 87mm throttle bodies on a relatively mild 5.3L engine, with a manual transmission, and you can drive it around in stop and go traffic as easily as a new stock Camaro...or whatever...



What does RPM range have to do with it?

For NA (naturally aspirated) engines, the aiflow requirement is a simple calculation involving displacement, engine RPM, and VE (volumetric efficiency). Let's take for example a 6.2L engine and use 7000rpm and 100% VE, we get a maximum air requirement of about 738CFM. This value is actually inflated, because peak VE occurs at peak torque, not at maximum RPM. A LS3 90mm throttle body flow 1369cfm (https://accufabracing.com/cfm-air-flow). Clearly more than capable of a lot more HP than a stock, or even heavily modified LS3 would ever need.



And what negative effects are you referring to?

Negative effects include hard to control idle speed at a relatively appropriate level. Touchy throttle, which makes taking off from a stop in a smooth manner nearly impossible. Transient fueling challenges due to the non linear flow of a large TB, causing a very fast pressure drop inside the intake when the throttle is opened.


And finally, I am guessing you are thinking about the LS front TB style and not referring to a more traditional 4-barrel style large TB in a single/dual plane intake?

This applies to all engines and all intake manifold configurations. On a more traditional intake setup (single or dual plane) some of these issues are mitigated by the fact that the smaller bores of a 4 barrel throttle body have a more linear flow. Additionally, a progressive linkage can be used to limit airflow at low throttle opening.



Curious what you're running into and felt the need for the PSA about. :)

I am running into all of the above...LOL

Bottom line, it is hard to justify anything bigger than a 90mm (or 1000cfm 4 barrel style) throttle body for most NA applications, and if budget allows, using DBW is highly desirable.

Andrew

[carbuff]

For NA (naturally aspirated) engines, the aiflow requirement is a simple calculation involving displacement, engine RPM, and VE (volumetric efficiency). Let's take for example a 6.2L engine and use 7000rpm and 100% VE, we get a maximum air requirement of about 738CFM. This value is actually inflated, because peak VE occurs at peak torque, not at maximum RPM. A LS3 90mm throttle body flow 1369cfm (https://accufabracing.com/cfm-air-flow). Clearly more than capable of a lot more HP than a stock, or even heavily modified LS3 would ever need.

While I understand the math, my experience with TOW showed that the math doesn't always give you exactly what you need. I was running the highest-rated flowing 4150 style TB that I could find at 1550 cfm. It was 2 large blades with a center divider. I had a ported intake manifold which opened up the plenum and cleaned up transitions into the runners, so it was a good setup. I dynoed this on an engine dyno before installing into the car.

I also dynoed the engine with a 4500-style TB and different but similarly ported intake. This combination offered a much improved upper-rpm power that carried way better than the 1550 cfm 4150 did.

So in my opinion, the math isn't always the answer (of course how accurate the TB ratings are is always up for debate).


Negative effects include hard to control idle speed at a relatively appropriate level. Touchy throttle, which makes taking off from a stop in a smooth manner nearly impossible. Transient fueling challenges due to the non linear flow of a large TB, causing a very fast pressure drop inside the intake when the throttle is opened.

Yes, it took a good bit of work to smooth out the maps in my Holley also. The secondaries on my TB setup used a progressive linkage, and that was a bit tricky to tune, especially the AE tables when that secondary started opening.


Bottom line, it is hard to justify anything bigger than a 90mm (or 1000cfm 4 barrel style) throttle body for most NA applications, and if budget allows, using DBW is highly desirable.

Andrew

DBW would make things easier to tune in some sense I imagine, but I haven't tuned one myself. It was fun learning to tune the Holley, and fortunately the Holley platform makes it pretty easy (especially the helpful forums).

[andrewb70]

...

I also dynoed the engine with a 4500-style TB and different but similarly ported intake. This combination offered a much improved upper-rpm power that carried way better than the 1550 cfm 4150 did.

So in my opinion, the math isn't always the answer (of course how accurate the TB ratings are is always up for debate).

...

What was the power differential?

Andrew

[carbuff]

~15HP and ~10 ft-lb. But how it carried the power was a bigger difference. We stopped the pull at 7500rpm, and that was the peak power point (it was almost flat from 7000-7500). With the 4150, the pull peaked around 6900-7000 and started rolling off. (I can't find the exact plots unfortunately or I would post).

[andrewb70]

~15HP and ~10 ft-lb. But how it carried the power was a bigger difference. We stopped the pull at 7500rpm, and that was the peak power point (it was almost flat from 7000-7500). With the 4150, the pull peaked around 6900-7000 and started rolling off. (I can't find the exact plots unfortunately or I would post).

What was the engine combination?

[carbuff]

What was the engine combination?

All you should want and more... :)

https://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamometer-results-comparisons/1888467-434ci-mms-265-heads-super-victor-intake-mms-solid-roller-cam-dyno-results.html


(https://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamometer-results-comparisons/1888467-434ci-mms-265-heads-super-victor-intake-mms-solid-roller-cam-dyno-results.html)

[Thatorange67]

Andrew, I got the car out today and its running so well. The things acts and behaves like a new car. It's always nice to drive a 50 year old car that runs like a 2012 mustang

[andrewb70]

Andrew, I got the car out today and its running so well. The things acts and behaves like a new car. It's always nice to drive a 50 year old car that runs like a 2012 mustang

Awesome!

[TonyV]

Hey i'm all in on the discussion because i'm a potential "victim" of my own engine set up based on what was described. I'm using a Mast 4500 flange intake with Acufab throttle body. I drove it mostly on the track for a year and loved the way it ran but on the street i realized there was no effort in fine tuning it at idle and I realized they just set the idle at 1100rpm. In the test cell a Holley rep was actually there tuning it, here's where i suppose i should've asked more questions. While we were elated with the 750hp pulls i should've also focused on the idle tune. Since then the car has been painted and i'm putting it back together and i'll be "attempting" to figure out the " huge cable throttle body" .....story to be continued.

[no_go nico]

Glad to hear you're a fan of DBW when using a larger TB. I have an LS7 being built now, Holley Sniper intake Nick Williams 102mm TB with DBW should make ~700hp at the crank. Custom ground Comp cam, Callies crank, Callies rods, Brian Tooley valve train, custom ported LS3 heads. Went with the NW TB because I've read rave reviews on the product and choose the DBW set up based on my builders recommendation.



Public Service Announcement for today:

For the love of God, please do not use a huge cable throttle body unless your engine combination absolute demands it, in the higher RPM range. And even then, carefully evaluate how your vehicle will be used and determine if a few extra HP are worth the tuning and drivability issues that these big throttle bodies cause! Be extra mindful if you have a manual transmission car, because they are especially vulnerable to the negative effects.

Andrew

- - - Updated - - -

[Dc2x4drvr]

PM sent

[rchaskin]

Bump for 2021!!

I will support all of the other shout-outs for Andrew.
He got my tune under control, and has everything running great!!
Five stars!

I wired everything and did the tuning wizard on the holley.
It would run, but would not idle below about 1300rpm.
That is where Andrew picked it up.

He had a base tune ready and made several tweeks to get it dialed in.
It only took two sessions to get this thing dialed.
He explains everything as he goes, and has taught me a lot.
He was flexible on scheduling on my time and got me in quick.

Truck starts and idles great, cold or hot.
Engine is super responsive at all RPMs.
It pulls like it is going to throw the bed off...LOL

If anyone is interested, this is my combo...
1976 Squarebody Truck
Drivetrain is a 2007 L92 and a 2006 4L80e. (3.40 Ratio Rear)
I used the Holley Terminator Max Kit 550-928.
I used the Holley 12-308 fuel module in a new factory tank.
Factory L92 injectors.

Modifications are BTR stage 3-V2 truck cam, Circle D 2600-2800 stall, and Speed Engineering 1-7/8" headers.
It has the factory L92 intake and DBW Throttle Body(87mm), and I have the 10379038 CTSV pedal that Holley recommends.

[andrewb70]

Randy,

Thanks for the review. I really appreciate your kind words!

Andrew

[Fierbird67]

Throwing my belated review of Andrew's services out there.

He was great in working with me to dial in my '71 Cutlass (with original tired Olds 350) before going to the Salt Lake Goodguys show in July. He was great in helping with the physical setup of the vacuum lines and timing advance along with the actual tune to try and get the engine running as smooth as it could. Considering the engine came with the car and showed all of its original miles he did as much as he could without physically fixing internals.
The car ran good, but still had a light miss and blow by that I needed to take care of since EFI obviously won't magically fix those issues with the engine no matter how good the tune is.

Recently, I ended up running a half a bottle of Berryman's down the throat of the throttle body. And won't you know, the heads/rings must have been gunked up something fierce. Drove around for about an hour heat cycling and she is smooth as silk now with the tune. Only thing left is to do some power pulls to let the computer map the fuel for 8 functional cylinders.

Much thanks for all your help Andrew!

[andrewb70]

Throwing my belated review of Andrew's services out there.

He was great in working with me to dial in my '71 Cutlass (with original tired Olds 350) before going to the Salt Lake Goodguys show in July. He was great in helping with the physical setup of the vacuum lines and timing advance along with the actual tune to try and get the engine running as smooth as it could. Considering the engine came with the car and showed all of its original miles he did as much as he could without physically fixing internals.
The car ran good, but still had a light miss and blow by that I needed to take care of since EFI obviously won't magically fix those issues with the engine no matter how good the tune is.

Recently, I ended up running a half a bottle of Berryman's down the throat of the throttle body. And won't you know, the heads/rings must have been gunked up something fierce. Drove around for about an hour heat cycling and she is smooth as silk now with the tune. Only thing left is to do some power pulls to let the computer map the fuel for 8 functional cylinders.

Much thanks for all your help Andrew!

Glad to help. Email me when you are ready for a tune review!

Andrew

[andrewb70]

If anyone is going to LS fest in Bowling Green, I will be offering live tuning sessions on a first come first serve basis. I will also be offering a discount if you book a slot in advance. I will be arriving in BGKY on the afternoon of Thursday, September 9th and will leave on the morning of Monday, September 12th. Please email me to book a slot and to discuss the details.

Email: projectgattago at gmail dot com

Andrew

[andrewb70]

Bump for LS fest tuning appointments.

Andrew

[G Atsma]

How did it go at LS Fest?