Carbon Fiber Business

[badazz81z28]

Does anyone foresee more entries into the Carbon Fiber business? Seems there are really only a couple making panels for old muscle cars and they charge ridiculous prices and I hear they don’t even fit that great. I’m under the assumption the process is very expensive and I would believe profit isn’t great yet I see these folks building very high end cars. So I assume they have the spare cash to build $100k cars in their spare time they are making big bucks? I hear SEMA showcased some new options.

[BMR Sales]

Tough to say - Expensive to get into and for probably a little return unless they luck out on a product that sells in volume. The companies that I have known in the Porsche circles that made C/F parts moved on to other things

[slimjim]

I feel like it's possible with a bigger production, as it has proven to be with modern cars, BMW's etc. perhaps the demand is just too low for our cars to make it worthwhile? when more detailed tighter-fitting hoods are available all day long for $600-1000 it makes me wonder why they're so expensive for our cars.

[shelteredchevelle]

There is a company that makes parts for WeaponX that does outstanding work. I have a hood, a splitter, and some smaller bits for my CTSV bought through Ben and it's really nice stuff. I don't know who makes it for him, but it is done here in the states. Maybe he would share who it is, I'll ask.
Ford offers CF bits in the Raptor and they are really well done too, although they have had a hard time keeping up with the orders from what I've been told. It's a tough, toxic business, vendors don't seem to last...

[raustinss]

I think half the problem with making parts for older cars is you have to remember the tolerances on these thing is plus or minus 2 inches lol . Newer cars are easier to make parts for because they quite often have only one or 2 plants producing them and very tight tolerances. Spending a few grand to make a mold for a car that you might pop 6 hoods a yr out of isnt a good business plan

[Build-It-Break-It]

Ryan hit the nail on the head. 40 year old cars have all been treated different by each owner and hack body shops. To make panels that fit each car perfect would require each individual car to be fitted for the panels or a person who just simply understands panel fitment.

I think the reason the prices are so expensive is because people expect close to perfection on the panels for the old cars. Look at the import seen, you can buy carbon fiber hoods, trunks etc fairly cheap but look at your a audience. They expect panels to be flawed or fit just "ok". Try to sell the same not so perfect panels to muscle car guys and we'd want better then just "ok".

Most complain about cost but everything isn't for everyone. You want carbon you have to pay. Want trick suspension already designed, you have to pay, don't know how to do panel replacement or body work but want the cleanest paint job, you have to pay.

I purchased a bunch of Carbon blems from Anvil when they did sell them and I'm ok with the flaws, cracks etc. I'll fix them and they'll be good enough for my ride.

Try contacting different carbon shops for the import seen and see if they have interest in making domestic parts?
Ultra carbon makes a bunch of really nice parts but you pay a premium.

[Tsaints1115]

To do carbon parts correctly is very expensive in upfront costs to start the business. I'm sure you'll find the ones doing it right were already in the cf business already and branched out.

[John McIntire]

I contacted Speedkore about carbon fiber parts for first gen Camaros after hearing their interview from SEMA on the Muscle Car Place podcast. They have a hood but the gentleman told me that the mold they made from a car that wasn't perfect and they didn't find out until it was too late. Told me that they do offer it, but you would need to bring them your car and they'll mount and fit the understructure and then bond the top carbon fiber piece to it for a perfect fit. Price was near 3k.
There's another company called Advan Carbon that makes some first gen stuff and a ton of import parts, they have a guarantee it'll fit.
I had a lengthy conversation with the owner of Ultra Carbon, which started with a question about his pricing compared to what else you see online. Was a great guy and really educated me on carbon fiber and all the differences. Bottom line is he uses the best of the best, made right here in the US and guarantees its perfection and will fit your car or he'll fix or replace it free, including shipping. Seemed very confident in his product. If I had the money, it would go to him.
The problem with carbon fiber is that it's so expensive and everyone is expecting to pay fiberglass prices. The parts are out there for us, just how much are you willing to spend?

[thinkfastroth]

Hey guys,

If you get time and want to take a look, I'm linking a series of videos produced by Easy Composits Ltd., they are a materials and tool supplier for the moulding industry.

The videos show the process of taking an OEM hood, building the moulds, laying out and forming components and then using those components in assembling a carbon fiber hood.

Aside from the cost of cloth, resins, and consumables, producing a quality part is time consuming.

I've had to build moulds to form replacement components or build repair sections on several of the Shelbys we have built so, I am always interested in the processes.

Part 1
https://youtu.be/UgKvDw1E60E

Part 2
https://youtu.be/YWbGx_BJVvM

Part 3
https://youtu.be/P8ucNBRaBYs

Later,
Dan

[badazz81z28]

Ryan hit the nail on the head. 40 year old Cars...Ultra carbon makes a bunch of really nice parts but you pay a premium.


Absolutely true, but I’ve noticed even steel panels don’t fit like OEM. Doesn’t make sense to me. Ultra Carbon is insanely priced...$2000 plus shipping for a trunk lid. I bet his hood when he makes one is $5k!

[BMR Sales]

I think the reason the prices are so expensive is because people expect close to perfection on the panels for the old cars. Look at the import seen, you can buy carbon fiber hoods, trunks etc fairly cheap but look at your a audience. They expect panels to be flawed or fit just "ok". Try to sell the same not so perfect panels to muscle car guys and we'd want better then just "ok".



The Import ( Ricer ) parts are very rarely pure C/F/ They are typically a C/F layer over a fiberglass composite. Fit & Finish there is bad too

[badazz81z28]

Hey guys,

If you get time and want to take a look, I'm linking a series of videos produced by Easy Composits Ltd., they are a materials and tool supplier for the moulding industry.

The videos show the process of taking an OEM hood, building the moulds, laying out and forming components and then using those components in assembling a carbon fiber hood.

Aside from the cost of cloth, resins, and consumables, producing a quality part is time consuming.

I've had to build moulds to form replacement components or build repair sections on several of the Shelbys we have built so, I am always interested in the processes.

Part 1
https://youtu.be/UgKvDw1E60E

Part 2
https://youtu.be/YWbGx_BJVvM

Part 3
https://youtu.be/P8ucNBRaBYs

Later,
Dan

I think a lot of folks are using pre-pregnated carbon mats now that you use an autoclave. Even so, I think once you have a mold, its a little timely process, but touch time doesn't seem to be too much. It seems the critical step is to have a perfect OEM panel to mold. If you use a ****ty panel with issues the end product will be crap. I know when I bought a AMD header panel, it was too narrow and didn't fit. The OEM I bought fit perfectly.

[Build-It-Break-It]

The Import ( Ricer ) parts are very rarely pure C/F/ They are typically a C/F layer over a fiberglass composite. Fit & Finish there is bad too

Anvil sells carbon laid over fiberglass as well. That's my point as well that most want near perfection but at import prices, ain't happening.

If Anvil started selling carbon cheaper at import quality there would be so many complaints.

You have to pay for the higher quality and even what people consider quality differs from person to person. What I may consider nice may be junk to another.

[raustinss]

Anvil is import . Not sure if anyone did or didnt know this , this is why it can take up to 6 months for them to complete an order. It takes alot to fill a container and send it across the pond , thru customs, at warehouse , inspect , ship to you etc
Not to take away from anyone who produces or purchases carbon over fiberglass but, to me I dont see the point its alot of money for a lateral move , a carbon over fiberglass hood can't really save that much weight, yes you get the carbon look . But for a little bit more yu can have both by going to a full carbon piece

[dhutton]

The difference in weight between fiberglass and carbon is negligible imho. All the weight savings is in replacing the steel panel.

Don

[badazz81z28]

The difference in weight between fiberglass and carbon is negligible imho. All the weight savings is in replacing the steel panel.

Don


very true, like myself the idea of the Carbon look and the ability to bolt it on like stock is nice.

[WOLF1732]

If you just want the look you can use a stock part make a standard fiberglass mold and lay up your part using carbon fiber and a standard catalyzed epoxy resin. You get the look just not the weight or the strength. I doubt many on this forum
really need or require true " carbon fiber" me included. When I make my front end I am going to use type S fiberglass. near as strong as fiber and about as light. And the big win is you can do it in your garage. If it's just a look thing I would just wrap it. Some Of the wraps I saw at SEMA this year look amazing. Just my 2 cents worth.

[raustinss]

Nobody NEEDS carbon fiber ... just like nobody NEEDS 600 plus hp in a daily ... but we all want it lol

[badazz81z28]

Nobody NEEDS carbon fiber ... just like nobody NEEDS 600 plus hp in a daily ... but we all want it lol


Very true. I want carbon fiber to shed some weight. I know I can do that with fiberglass, but I want a higher end “end product”.

[Josh@Ridetech]

Zach from Zrodz Customs has a sister company opening up that is called Fiber Forged Composites. Their website is still being built but they have an active Facebook and Instagram. All of the parts that I've seen from them are unbelievable. Here's his Camaro: https://www.fuelcurve.com/z-rodz-1971-camaro/

I know he's got alot more in the works now too.

[badazz81z28]

Zach from Zrodz Customs has a sister company opening up that is called Fiber Forged Composites. Their website is still being built but they have an active Facebook and Instagram. All of the parts that I've seen from them are unbelievable. Here's his Camaro: https://www.fuelcurve.com/z-rodz-1971-camaro/

I know he's got alot more in the works now too.


thrilled to see it’s a second gen, not another first gen....

[Josh@Ridetech]

Agreed [emoji16]

[Sbeck09]

I think people forget that when running a business that requires manual labor, every minute has a cost. I noticed this when doing performance and maintenance work on European cars. People would know the cost of the part and then complain that you have to charge "so much" for the labor when it took hours to do what they wanted. Composites are this x10. It takes HOURS of tedious labor to get the panel right. Those molds then have a limited number of uses before they have to be redone. So the added cost is in the labor PLUS the already higher cost of materials. Luckily carbon is getting cheaper with wider adoption. Slowly, but it is. 30 years ago a guy at home couldn't just order up a kit online to make his own panel.

You'll still end up spending over $1,000 minimum to make your own panel. And that's if you don't screw up. So $2,000 for a hood you just order and bolt-on (regardless of fit) isn't THAT terrible. Am I spending that much? Hell no, not right now! I need to be a better driver before I chase 1/10 of a second per lap with expensive lightwieght parts.

As for the complaints about carbon over fiberglass....it's still far less than the weight of a factory panel with the "look." So unless you are building a Lemans Prototype, that 3 extra pounds the fiberglass "adds" to your composite hood is nothing. I'm totally guilty of getting caught up in the whole "I have to have the absolute best if I have it!" But the reality is that anything is really an improvement over stock so it all works out.

[badazz81z28]

I think people forget that when running a business that requires manual labor, every minute has a cost. I noticed this when doing performance and maintenance work on European cars. People would know the cost of the part and then complain that you have to charge "so much" for the labor when it took hours to do what they wanted. Composites are this x10. It takes HOURS of tedious labor to get the panel right. Those molds then have a limited number of uses before they have to be redone. So the added cost is in the labor PLUS the already higher cost of materials. Luckily carbon is getting cheaper with wider adoption. Slowly, but it is. 30 years ago a guy at home couldn't just order up a kit online to make his own panel.

You'll still end up spending over $1,000 minimum to make your own panel. And that's if you don't screw up. So $2,000 for a hood you just order and bolt-on (regardless of fit) isn't THAT terrible. Am I spending that much? Hell no, not right now! I need to be a better driver before I chase 1/10 of a second per lap with expensive lightwieght parts.

As for the complaints about carbon over fiberglass....it's still far less than the weight of a factory panel with the "look." So unless you are building a Lemans Prototype, that 3 extra pounds the fiberglass "adds" to your composite hood is nothing. I'm totally guilty of getting caught up in the whole "I have to have the absolute best if I have it!" But the reality is that anything is really an improvement over stock so it all works out.


More like $4000 for a old muscle car CF hood. $2600+ship from Anvil. I agree labor takes time...That's why in any business, you need to sell products to stay afloat. You can't make a single product...sell a single product and make a business. The problem is when you sell an item for a ton of money, you only sell a few products. You sell them for a price many will pay, you'll sell more product. In the end that is more sustainable for a continuing business. You're gonna run out of clients in short time unless you widely expand your catalog with ridiculous prices which will end up costing you even more money. We all like the high life too...but everyone expects to get rich off this and that drives the price up too. I'm not educated in any automotive trade skills, but I know how to swap a starter, an alternator or a water pump. Should I get paid $80 an hour to do this? I don't even get that in my Master Degree educated profession in aviation. We pay our automotive folks a ton of money and it shows with all the builds they do. You can easily get a 100% carbon hood for your modern camaro for less than half of that for the older cars. I suspect this is the "quantity" they sell to achieve the price point. Probably got the wrong stuff, but the CF sheets don't appear to be horribly expensive https://www.fibreglast.com/product/Prepreg_3K_2x2_Twill_Weave_Carbon_03101/PrePreg_Fabrics

[dhutton]

I’m going to guess the market for carbon fiber parts for muscle cars is small regardless of price so selling cheap on the assumption it will drive volumes higher may not be accurate.

Just my opinion.

Don

[badazz81z28]

I’m going to guess the market for carbon fiber parts for muscle cars is small regardless of price so selling cheap on the assumption it will drive volumes higher may not be accurate.

Just my opinion.

Don


I don't know...A lot of companies make a living selling OER steel body parts. Hypothetical...if you needed a trunk lid and you could either get a carbon Fiber lid or a steel lid for roughly the same price, which one would you buy? I seems more people modify their cars these days versus concourse restorations.

[dhutton]

I don't know...A lot of companies make a living selling OER steel body parts. Hypothetical...if you needed a trunk lid and you could either get a carbon Fiber lid or a steel lid for roughly the same price, which one would you buy? I seems more people modify their cars these days versus concourse restorations.

I seriously doubt that carbon parts will ever be the same price as steel. At least not anytime soon.

Just my opinion,
Don

[jlcustomz]

At some point in time , I want to try doing a cf overlay on some existing custom parts I made. A rep at one supplier (fiberglast??) once told me I could use surfboard resin instead of epoxy, which would also be better near high heat , such as an under hood cover. Black pigment is many times used in overlays.

Biggest time thing I see with overlaying existing is you basically have to bodywork (sand ,recoat or spray, & repeat) the thing till smooth enough to then buff. Some finish up process with a few coats of automotive clear, which sands easier. Also have concern with how hard it would be for fabric to stay laying down perfect in the resin on it's own till dry, particularly at hard curves & angled corners. Would have to be lighter fabric for sure. Also cutting parts of fabric to line up on overlay I think would be even harder than laying in mold.
As far as any composite product weight goes, least resin per fabric ratio is the main thing to provide lighter weight. The stiffness of cf or even s-glass over standard glass allows for overall thinner product with acceptable stiffness.

[OG-Stage2Buick]

About 20 yrs ago I did a tour at VFN fiberglass near Chicago . During the tour of the facilities they they showed us the massive roll of fiberglass material they used for producing their parts . Right next to that was a roll of carbon fiber also . They said any thing in our catalog we sell in fiberglass we can make with carbon fiber . For about double the cost .Im sure they are no stranger musclecars . I know they do custom orders too . It may be worthwhile to contact them or another vendor that is already established , local , and experienced with older vehicles .

[TheJDMan]

I don't know...A lot of companies make a living selling OER steel body parts. Hypothetical...if you needed a trunk lid and you could either get a carbon Fiber lid or a steel lid for roughly the same price, which one would you buy? I seems more people modify their cars these days versus concourse restorations.

AMD currently sells a 70-81 Camaro rear deck lid for $159.99. I don't see anyone selling a CF version of that deck lid for anything remotely close to that price anytime soon.

[badazz81z28]

AMD currently sells a 70-81 Camaro rear deck lid for $159.99. I don't see anyone selling a CF version of that deck lid for anything remotely close to that price anytime soon.


Not in this industry. It’s not about providing a product, it’s about making money. I know you won’t see parts this cheap, but if you could, who would pick the reproduction steel over CF?

[southernfriedcj]

Not in this industry. It’s not about providing a product, it’s about making money. I know you won’t see parts this cheap, but if you could, who would pick the reproduction steel over CF?

I'd take steel over CF any day. I don't need to save 3 pounds and I can't stand the look of CF. Looks ricer to me.

When it coms to aesthetics on a muscle car/pony car I like stock. Billet makes me puke. If I want frenched lights and bumpers I want them on an old Merc.

[dhutton]

I'd take steel over CF any day. I don't need to save 3 pounds and I can't stand the look of CF. Looks ricer to me.

When it coms to aesthetics on a muscle car/pony car I like stock. Billet makes me puke. If I want frenched lights and bumpers I want them on an old Merc.

Don’t hold back. Tell us what you really think.... :lol:

[drummerdad]

Carbon fiber done right is going to cost. In order to make the part stronger and lighter, it needs the excessive resin removed. This is where the weight savings comes in. The reason fiberglass hoods weigh the same as cheap import CF hoods is they didnt remove the resin. Its still heavy, and weak. In aviation we build and repair structural components made from CF and it is a very specific process and time consuming.

Then there is the people factor. I attempted to get something going a few years ago with a 3rd gen f-body club I was in. I found a guy who would make me a mold for the hoods. I can work carbon fiber myself. I went to a short school for Bell helicopter to learn how to do it. It just seemed easier to get another guy to make the molds. The cost wasnt bad. When I posted about the opportunity online, I got 20 requests for CF hoods....in about 7 or 8 different styles. It would take 10+ hoods to make the money back for the mold. Everyone wants something unique, which costs even more. Race weight CF is the best for weight savings, and probably closest to aviation standards. Thats why its expensive.

It would be tough to keep people happy, and make money. Most people are cheap. I am for sure. If I need CF parts, Ill make them myself. If you just want the look, 3M makes a di-noc textured sticker that looks close to CF.

[Canadianwraith]

Someone suggested Feathercarbon for panels. I made the mistake of ordering a deck lid 2 months ago. They won't even reply to emails about delivery after several "I'll find where it's at"

[badazz81z28]

Someone suggested Feathercarbon for panels. I made the mistake of ordering a deck lid 2 months ago. They won't even reply to emails about delivery after several "I'll find where it's at"


well FWIW...I bought one from Anvil in November and still waiting.

[dhutton]

well FWIW...I bought one from Anvil in November and still waiting.
Did they give you a date? I tell folks to order their stuff at least six months before you need it unless it is in stock.

Don

[badazz81z28]

They said Feb.

[raustinss]

That means april lol

[Canadianwraith]

That time frame is crazy, but I could live with it if they gave a date. I've sent an email a week for the last 3 weeks, no reply. Just tell me if you made the mistake of working naked and your junk has been glued to your forearm for the last week; weird yes but I at least have a reason.
On a plus, going to Kindig-it this Friday in Utah; should be an awesome trip!

[BMR Sales]

On a plus, going to Kindig-it this Friday in Utah; should be an awesome trip!

I've met Dave at a Good-Guys Show. I would love to go to his Shop someday. Enjoy!

[southernfriedcj]

Did they give you a date? I tell folks to order their stuff at least six months before you need it unless it is in stock.

Don

That's crazy. I can build you a house in half that time.

[badazz81z28]

I've met Dave at a Good-Guys Show. I would love to go to his Shop someday. Enjoy!


amazing what a TV can do for your popularity.

[raustinss]

amazing what a TV can do for your popularity.


I had heard of and seen some of they're cars before the show started , maybe it depends what circles you run in ??

[badazz81z28]

I had heard of and seen some of they're cars before the show started , maybe it depends what circles you run in ??


Born and raised in Utah, his shop was right down the street and never heard of Kindig before the show.