12k LS motor and tranny 500 hp build challengr

[toofun]

Ok everyone says it’s possible to do this but here’s the deal. 100% swap from motor to tranny to ecm to accessories basically to put it all in and have it running. Tell me how you would do it or how you have done it for 12k if it can’t be done say that too . Let’s hive people a realistic from start to finish cost. Easy to say I did this and that to a motor but no one ever talks about to total cost to do it from start to finish. Who can step up and show it.

Thanks
mark

[badazz81z28]

Depends....what engine are we shooting for? Your not getting there with a LS7 or a LT4

[toofun]

LS1, LS2, LS3, LQ4, LQ6, Etc. I just think there are alot of people including myself that would like to know if it is realistically possible and if it can be done. Include everything from an TR6060 6 SPEED to the radiator, motor mounts, modifications, accessories EVERYTHING it would take start to finish to get a 500 HP setup in a first gen camaro. Maybe it is not possible but too many people get into these and then say oh Sh8t i ran out of money or I didnt know I needed this for this amount to make it happen.

Trying to either give someone a realistic expectation or a reality check before they make the jump. Lets make this thread realistic with what you have done. If it is more than that say it, if it was less say that too but lets not put unrealistic scenarios in it like, "my buddy sold me his LS3 motor for 500 out of his wrecked camaro" scenario. Be as realistic as you can.

LS motor with a manual tranny making 500HP. Oh and in keeping with the realistic theme here, lets keep it naturally aspirated. Easy to take any motor and throw an 150 shot of NOX on it and call it the day but we all know that is a short cut not a realistic solution to everyday driving.

Thanks,
Mark

[andrewb70]

I'd start with a LS3 430, add a Tooley stage 2 LS3 cam, valve springs, and pushrods. Back it with a T56 Magnum. A friend of mine has this engine combination in his 66 Fairlane. It's 3900 pounds and he has run a best of 11.65@115mph, through a 4L60e and 9" rear end. If that's not 500HP, it is really close. You won't be able to buy EVERYTHING you listed above, but it'll be a solid combination.

Andrew

[toofun]

I'd start with a LS3 430, add a Tooley stage 2 LS3 cam, valve springs, and pushrods. Back it with a T56 Magnum. A friend of mine has this engine combination in his 66 Fairlane. It's 3900 pounds and he has run a best of 11.65@115mph, through a 4L60e and 9" rear end. If that's not 500HP, it is really close. You won't be able to buy EVERYTHING you listed above, but it'll be a solid combination.

Andrew

So if I was going to get an LS3 and buy a T56 magnum with the mods you suggested what would that cost 12k? What would the rest of what I would need cost? Trying to figure out if I bought a stick set up LS3 with stock T 56 for around 7k what I would need to spend to get it into the car running. Or am I better off finding a short block and building it and buy a magnum t 56

[andrewb70]

I just did a rough cost estimate based on experience. Would you like an Excel spreadsheet with a detailed parts list and best available prices? LOL Start looking up the prices...you have the internet...

As for "the rest" you will need:

ECU and harness...I'd go with the new Holley terminator X Max
I would use the Holley swap components...all of them...pan...mounts...trans...etc...
Hooker also has headers and a full exhaust system that is engineered to work with their swap system
Bellhousing (various options available for the t56 Magnum
Clutch...many options at various price points
Clutch pedal hydraulic components (check with Bowler for trans and related needed items)

There is no such thing as a used LS3 with a T56. The 5th gen Camaros came with LS3 and had Tr6060 transmissions. These transmissions are not swap friendly because they use a fixed output flange instead of a slip yoke. You can get a Corvette LS3 but they used a transaxle.

Andrew

[badazz81z28]

When I get a few moments, I’ll create a buy list. If you’re not particular on the best brand...you can do it. Mind you my list to do it cheap is mixing parts. Buying a Holley kit is $$$...the Terminator X is also not in the budget.

There are cheap mounts out there, cheap crossmembers and headers...

[andrewb70]

When I get a few moments, I’ll create a buy list. If you’re not particular on the best brand...you can do it. Mind you my list to do it cheap is mixing parts. Buying a Holley kit is $$$...the Terminator X is also not in the budget.

There are cheap mounts out there, cheap crossmembers and headers...

If you skimp anywhere, do not skimp on the mounts. The engine needs to be as low as possible, and only the Holley swap system accomplishes this. They are not that expensive and will offer a superior swap.

The TerminatorX is on par in price with the GM kits, and offer easy user programmability, without extra software or being a slave to your local tuning "expert."

Andrew

[dhutton]

If you are looking for low cost build recipes head on over to the conversions and hybrids forum on ls1tech.com. Those guys love to scratch around for low cost.

Don

[badazz81z28]

I disagree on the engine mounts. Myself and others have done LS swaps before any of these fancy kits were around. My first swap used something like this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Stock-Location-Engine-Motor-Mount-Adapter-Plates-for-LSx-LS1-LS2-LS7-Swap/161866459220?hash=item25affe2854:g:sYYAAOSw1zhaa~G 5:sc:USPSPriority!89115!US!-1 in combination with stock SBC mounts. $23 < $158?

I used dynatech headers at the time, but many more options today. The crossmember was a modified stock one and later the numerous application one from APT. F-body oil pan.


Granted it’s in a nice packaged kit, it’s not the most bang for the buck if you’re on a tight budget.

Also with the Term X....consider extra stuff, can it run the speedo? Reverse lock-out? Relays for fuel pump control, fan control etc. Things to consider when you shy away from OEM.

Seems to be a lot of bugs to work out as I’m watching the chatter on FB.

[jlcustomz]

Cost can vary widely per person & per vehicle with numerous items nickel & diming you. What you may already have & what you can fabricate instead of buy can add up quickly. For a first time ls swapper, I would not piece together an entire engine.
I had an existing efi in tank pump, saved several hundred.
Being done in 2002' I made motor mounts, modded trans crossmember, & cut & reboxed cossmember for f-body oil pan when there were no aftermarkets. Ls1 block is approx. 1 1/2" shorter in backside than gen 1 sbc so I read, was able to use my driveshaft fit for t-5 with my t-56.all these saved a bit.
Had to have power steering lines made for hydroboost & fuel adapter line from old tpi line to ls. Approx $100.
Gauges? big variable already having good ones or buying to go with engine.
Wiring harness. Buy ready to go, have one modified or modify yourself wire for wire for mostly your labor.
Build your own exhaust or pay?
So many variables here & none of us even know what sort of vehicle you're wanting to swap into;;;;another variable.

[badazz81z28]

Due to the above, my assessment is accurate for the average guy. I really couldn’t do anything but bolt it together. I can’t weld, don’t have more than standard tools.

[andrewb70]

I've said what I wanted to say. Getting into a pissing match on the internet is so 2002.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

...

Also with the Term X....consider extra stuff, can it run the speedo? Reverse lock-out? Relays for fuel pump control, fan control etc. Things to consider when you shy away from OEM.

Seems to be a lot of bugs to work out as I’m watching the chatter on FB.

For the record, the TerminatorX can do all that and you don't need HP Tuners to make changes. People on FB can flap their gums all they want. I helped my buddy Tom install one on his 70 GTO a couple of weeks ago.

Andrew

[DT69Cam]

I think my GM LS3 crate (495) and my TKO 600 came in at 11,500. Add, front drive set-up, Holley LS swap kit, Headers, Exhaust, Radiator, gas tank, fuel lines, CAI kit, and a sh** ton of incidentals. The incidentals were a killer.

[dhutton]

and a sh** ton of incidentals. The incidentals were a killer.

Yep, I tell folks it’s a death by 1000 cuts. The little stuff will nickel and dime you to death....

Don

[badazz81z28]

Well the good thing is you don’t need a new crate or a LS3 to get 500hp. In this budget most of the money will be for the engine. That being said you don’t need a new radiator...re-use the SBC rad. Re-use your SBC exhaust system, buy a engine with a front accessory drive. Don’t use expensive Holley parts. I think it can be done...you just need to start out with complete set-ups. It’s when you go off the tracks needing to upgrade everything and use the best parts. On my LS-1 swap about, it cost less than $7k

https://www.ebay.com/itm/06-07-Corvette-C6-Complete-Ls2-Engine-Drop-Out-6-0-400Hp-91K-Mile-Swap-Aa6425/143237841764?hash=item2159a40364:g:pVwAAOSwFmFczGF p

Yep, I tell folks it’s a death by 1000 cuts. The little stuff will nickel and dime you to death....

Don

[badazz81z28]

Iron block count in this?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/LQ9-6-0L-02-ESCALADE-ENGINE-125K-MILES-USED-TESTED-RUNS-GREAT/323774314392?hash=item4b6273f798

[1sikride]

My ls swap went way over budget.
LSA with a magnum.

The guys here are right. You can do it
Cheap but the labour and bloody knuckles and swearing will be high
And then...will it all feel reliable?
If you use top parts it all goes in smooth and usually
Works out great after a couple tweaks.

[badazz81z28]

Yup, the worst part with budget builds is searching for those deals. I learned the hard way....just don’t even have a budget. Decide on what you want and buy it! I think that would have ultimately would have been cheaper in the long run. It’s like government philosophy, save now, but becomes more expense down the road.
I have $12k In my engine alone...that JUST the engine.


My ls swap went way over budget.
LSA with a magnum.

The guys here are right. You can do it
Cheap but the labour and bloody knuckles and swearing will be high
And then...will it all feel reliable?
If you use top parts it all does in smooth and usually
Works out great after a couple tweaks.

[jlcustomz]

Again existing vehicle brings more variables. On the good side of things, LS engines don't need as much radiator for cooling, so if you have a good one that was capable of handling let's say 350 hp with a gen 1 engine, you may be good there.

Not to forget other items further back like you rearend. If it can't handle the new LS horsepower, then it can handle any other engine's 500 hp.

Having a complete donor vehicle can cut down on incidentals if you're the right person for the work involved. Can sell off other items & final mess for scrap. Some transplant swaps have included much more of wiring harness and even entire dash with gauges & column & front floorpans with seats. Even entire pullouts complete with everything possible are more cost conservative than crate engine with aftermarket accessory drives.

Now on deciding factors, this is a common one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxW6AIC8OQw

[toofun]

Man ton of great info here guys. I do have one other question for you. Besides the fixed flange yoke is there any other drawback to using the TR6060 6 speed in these swaps? I would figure you could have a driveshaft made or shortened to work. Are there any other drawbacks to it? I see alot of engine/trans combos out there that would save a ton of money over buying an engine then a T56 Tranny. This way you would have it all connected and ready to drop in.

I guess my question is what other factors make it a PITA to go with a TR6060. Are there tunnel mods that have to be made? This will be going in a 68 CAMARO.

Thanks
Mark

[jlcustomz]

Pretty sure you have cooling lines on them, which means a cooler to mount. Extra work is for a useful reason. Roller & thrust bearings fail much quicker under high hp with excessive heat.
On the subject of old trans tunnels, most of em need enlarging for a lot of the modern trans options when mounted at proper height for proper driveshaft angles . aftermarket 5 speed is about as big as will fit many older vehicles without floor mods. Pretty sure there are premade tunnel parts for ist gen f-body swaps.
Just deal with any major changes you need to make & you'll be glad you did it all when you're done.

Sounds like you're catching on Mark.

[79 Camaro]

So here's my .02. On the L92 I had in my 73 Z28. RWHP was 480. I know it's not 500 but the small Texas Speed cam (220I/225E,.615 lift) could of been bigger. The L92 was out of a 2009 Silverado with 5000 miles. Before mods it was $4200. Cam $400. Push rods and springs $350?
T56 magnum now is $3200. Camaro throw out was $120? LS7 clutch kit was $500.Bell housing I just sold one for $175.
Yes as said above it's the motor mounts and front end accessories are not cheap. Tick speed bleeder. I can do fab and other stuff so the price is some what lower for my Z28.

[DT69Cam]

So here's my .02. On the L92 I had in my 73 Z28. RWHP was 480. I know it's not 500 but the small Texas Speed cam (220I/225E,.615 lift) could of been bigger. The L92 was out of a 2009 Silverado with 5000 miles. Before mods it was $4200. Cam $400. Push rods and springs $350?
T56 magnum now is $3200. Camaro throw out was $120? LS7 clutch kit was $500.Bell housing I just sold one for $175.
Yes as said above it's the motor mounts and front end accessories are not cheap. Tick speed bleeder. I can do fab and other stuff so the price is some what lower for my Z28.

This example fits a bunch of guys I would think. It looks like 5,000 for your engine set-up. A GM crate 480/495 LS3 was 6,500, higher now I know. You forgot to mention how much the Tune was ? Another 500.00 perhaps. Harness/ECM mods ?? A little bit more money for a brand New crate engine with a warranty seems like a no brainer. Just my .02

[badazz81z28]

It sure does come down to preference. If I was going to stick a LS3 in my car and it was just going to be a cruiser, I would buy new as well. If you plan on modifying it, I wouldn’t be concerned about a warranty covered engine as you ruined that anyways. For what people charge for used LS3s....crazy. Based on LS engines...seems the LS7 is the only squeak needing warranty replacements. Seem rare you would need to exercise one during the covered period.

Used LS7s was the way to go for me...granted I paid good money for a used one and the end result was the same cost as a new one, I got the heads fixed and CNC ported, cammed, bigger injectors, new lifters, upgraded rockers etc. I’m more happy with this even though it’s got 30k miles on it.

Blueprint is an option as well...I thought I read they will tune the ECM with the purchase. They have 500hp packages and warranties better then GM

[79 Camaro]

Chassis dyno tune was $500. ECM and wiring harness was $800. Don't know about crate GM LS3 engines but all of my LS swaps needed a tune to run at it's best.

[badazz81z28]

I agree, for optimum performance no matter what system, an actually dynamic tune will be needed to get it at its best.
Texas Speed and Frost both did mail order tunes for me and it still needed dyno time


Chassis dyno tune was $500. ECM and wiring harness was $800. Don't know about crate GM LS3 engines but all of my LS swaps needed a tune to run at it's best.

[badazz81z28]

Man ton of great info here guys. I do have one other question for you. Besides the fixed flange yoke is there any other drawback to using the TR6060 6 speed in these swaps? I would figure you could have a driveshaft made or shortened to work. Are there any other drawbacks to it? I see alot of engine/trans combos out there that would save a ton of money over buying an engine then a T56 Tranny. This way you would have it all connected and ready to drop in.

I guess my question is what other factors make it a PITA to go with a TR6060. Are there tunnel mods that have to be made? This will be going in a 68 CAMARO.

Thanks
Mark


I have seen a successful TR6060 in a Sec Gen Camaro. It did require a custom driveshaft which was expensive and he had to modify for the shifter location. Depending on the cost of the unit, you could be ahead versus a Magnum. The tunnel totally depends on the car, I didn’t need to cut much and massaged a little.