Fabricating New Tail for 79 TA

[JoshStratton]

Hey all.

I had been planning this for about a year or so and finally purchased the parts. I really cant stand the 79 Tail lamps and gas filler so I thought I would try something new. I purchased the tail lamps from PT sponsor, Marquez Design....VERY GEORGEOUS. I also got this gas filler from a motorcycle parts dealership. Hopefully it will look good when installed.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[F70t/a]

I think it will look good man. When do you plan to start?

[redsand]

I would love to do something like this with my ta. Let me know what it looks like

[JoshStratton]

I hope to start soon. I just finished my body cart (just posted the thread). I have a few things to clean up but will start sooner or later.

[redsand]

Don't mean to copy you but damn that would look sweet!!!

[JoshStratton]

LOL to tell you the truth, I am not quite sure how I will do this one. I got the 69 RS tail lights cause I thought the horizontal lines would look good pointing at the filler. I need to get some pics of how the 69 tail lights actually install. I figure I will need to fab some mounting brackets. I really hope to get this done in the next month or so. I wasnt going to post any pics of anything for a while, but it seems everytime I think of something, someone else does it. I will definately document this though. I will probably need some help from some of the first gen guys to describe/photograph how they mount.

[redsand]

I do know what you mean but I'll tell you what I hate my taillights.

I was going to post some pics of my dash insert that I modified and had painted and cleared with white auto meter phantum gauges. I was a little late looks like yody RIP posted first.

Us t/a guys are few and far between any cool ideas and pictures gives me motivation.

[JoshStratton]

lol i saw what he did. I am going to custom fab an insert as well...probably out of aircraft aluminum.

[calereeves]

Good idea! I can't wait to see pics of it all installed!

[71FirebirdLS1]

that will look pretty cool... do you like the 74-77 firebird tail? it looks pretty similar.

http://www.extremefirebird.com/Bodymods.html

[JoshStratton]

Ooo good link! Thanks! Actually the 74-77 tail was what I was going to use until I saw the Marquez Design lights. I KNEW those were the ones I wanted at that point.

[Roger Poirier]

Can you post a pick of what the original lens look like?

R.P.

[JoshStratton]

I wasnt sure if you meant mine, specifically or just any 79 Ta. This isnt mine, but it is the same thing.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2005/12/79_silver_transam002-1.jpg

[ViperBlue68]

LOL to tell you the truth, I am not quite sure how I will do this one. I got the 68 RS tail lights cause I thought the horizontal lines would look good pointing at the filler. I need to get some pics of how the 68 tail lights actually install. I figure I will need to fab some mounting brackets. I really hope to get this done in the next month or so. I wasnt going to post any pics of anything for a while, but it seems everytime I think of something, someone else does it. I will definately document this though. I will probably need some help from some of the first gen guys to describe/photograph how they mount.

arent those 69 taillights?? because I'm still waitin on the 68 ones to be released

[JoshStratton]

Ooops Type-o. Thanks! Yes they are the 69's

[Roger Poirier]

You have a lot more guts than I do. I can't get a feel to what they will look like on the car. Have you photo chopped them on the car to get a better idea?

R.P.

[astroracer]

As far as fabbing the mounts does anyone make a replacement rear panel for the Camaro? If there is one available I would pick it up and adapt it to the Bird... It should also provide the attachments for the filler.
Mark

[JoshStratton]

Actually I was thinking of getting one from Goodmark, but the lines arent quite there. I think it might actually be easier for me to fab one up. Especially since I might have to do some cutting into the rear of my existing panel. I will probably have to create some kind of supports for that area because part of the body framing is in there.

[OLDFLM]

I keep hoping Marquez Design will come out with some billet light assemblies for the 70-73 Firebird's & T/As!

Can't wait to see how yours turns out! I really like the gas cap too!

V/R,
Ty

[JoshStratton]

He said he is working on assemblies for the early 2nd gen Camaros. I think it was Trapin who told me that. Hopefully the early Birds will be next.

[Travis B]

as stated above since the marquez taillights bolt in to the existing holes in a 69. I would get the 69 tailpanel and cut the mounting holes out of them, weld them into your fabbed tailpanel and be done with it.

On a side note I am not sure how tailights mount on a 69, but using a factory style mounting bucket would make since to me

[JoshStratton]

I think it might be a little more complicated than that.

This is what the inside looks like. I need a way to fit that all in there.

I am thinking I will make it so the lights are inserted from underneith. It will be a job where the bumper will have to be removed to do so, however. I would prefer to NOT cut up that back piece.

*Disclaimer, I found that pic, it is not my car.

[JoshStratton]

On a side note I am not sure how tailights mount on a 69, but using a factory style mounting bucket would make since to me
I went ahead and ordered these. Good idea! Thanks!

[astroracer]

I am thinking about servicing the bulbs. It would be a pain in the astro to have to pull the bumper to change a lamp. I know the original light asms pulled out from the front for bulb access but your new ones aren't designed that way.
My '73 has access to the bulbs from inside the trunk and this is probably what you should look at also. Use a modified '69 tailpanel and build a box back to the original so you can get to the bulbs and attachment hardware from the trunk.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2005/12/74bird_tail_panel-1.jpg
Just some stuff to think about.
Mark

[JoshStratton]

pain the astro :lmao:


That is good info as well. I ordered 2 RS housings off of ebay for like 45 bucks each. I think I will start from there and try to reverse engineer the body to accomidate them.

[JoshStratton]

Oh! Sorry, it just occured to me what you guys were saying.

How would I fit the tail panel in there? Cut out the original and weld in the new? Or just cut out the pieces I need and fit them in the original wall?

[astroracer]

You need to establish the plane you want the lights mounted on. Compare the depth of the OE housings to the new ones. You want the mounting plane for the new lights to put them close to the face of the OE lights. That's why I suggested building a box back to the tail panel. You will have to push the new lights rearward a bit to get them even with the back of the fender/spoiler and your box height will be equal to the difference between the old housing and the new housing.

[JoshStratton]

Ok I'm with you now! Thanks so much. I guess while I wait for the housings to arrive I can start my measurements and try to fab up the outer panel.

[JoshStratton]

Well now, things just got a little more 'interesting'. It turns out the mounting buckets are a little deep. I am going to have to cut the rear panel some to get them to fit. This brings 2 issues. I will lose some trunk space, and I will be cutting into part of the support of the car. I am going to need something like a couple of subframe connectors for the rear panel of my car. I will probably just cut up some square pipe and weld them on the outside the trunk (on either side of each light housing) to give some extra support.

[WS6]

well i cant say i agree with you about how the tailights look on a 79-81 TA but i think youve got a pretty cool idea and i hope it works. i love the early tailights on second gens also and this will look similar yet different. good idea. keep us posted on hwo it turns out.

[JoshStratton]

Mark - I was thinking about my layout last night and something occurred to me. You were not recommending I use the 68 housings were you...since they are too deep? You were suggesting I build a custom housing. Correct me if I am wrong. Sorry about that. I am more of a visual person and I mis-read your photo.

I realized I wasnt as much with you as I thought I was until I came up with what I wanted to do. I will do that. I am going to build a custom housing. I will probably spray it with some kind of a reflective paint so it is both protected from the elements and also more reflective for the lights.

Thanks!

[astroracer]

If you can use the housings do it. I was suggesting building a mounting box which will put the taillights at the right installed depth AND allow access from inside the trunk for attachment and bulb replacement. This would neccessitate cutting the stock tailpanel though. It may be possible to leave the stock tail panel uncut if there is room between the light and the panel to put in an access door from the top.
Cutting up a replacement Camaro tailpanel will give you the mounting points for your lights and building a sheetmetal box to bridge the gap to the stock tailpanel is pretty easy.
Get us some up to date photos of your car with the stock lights removed and the new ones mocked in place.
Mark

[CAMAROBOY69]

This is my kind of thinking! I like your idea and cant wait to see how it turns out. :cool: Dare to be different. :)
If I was in your position I would order the rear tail panel from a 69 Camaro then mold it into your body (like stated above). Thats how I would tackle a project like this. :naughty:
Mark also has a good idea about building the box so the tail lights are accessible.

[TonyL]

I think you could build a box that fills the entire tail panel area, Looks like about 3.5 inches deep. you could then install the taillamps and filler onto the box. and then weld nuts onto flanges on the inside of the box, and bolt it through the inside making it look seamless.

fab a coupler so the fuel filler mates to the original neck, and you're set.

[JoshStratton]

Yikes. Well, I have an update. This isnt going to be as simple as I thought. I just looked at the panel in detail and found that there is going to be a LOT more customization to this thing than I originally thought. The 79 panels are a lot different than the earlier models. I dont have the tools or the talent to do this. I am thinking I might stay with the 79 Tail panel. If I had an earlier car, this would be a lot easier.

I have some thinking to do :(

[JoshStratton]

Ok. So I went ahead and gave it a shot. Here is what I have so far. Keep in mind this is very rough and a LONG way from finished. I am not sure how it will look yet because the bumper isnt on and the sheet metal is a lot longer than where it will be when done. I just left a lot hanging because I am going to tuck it under and use it for bracing.

What I did so far was cut the stock bucket and create a tiny bracket to mount the 69 tail light to it. This way I can change the tail lamps like stock if need be.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Next, I cut the stock gas door stop off of the rear tail then welded in a strip to bring the metal to the edge of the rear fender.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

I bent the edges down, then cut little strips on the corners so I could fab the curve. I then molded each one and welded them together.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

I cut the wedges out for the tail lights and they fit somewhat nicely. I plan to get a tail panel from a 69 RS (like Travis and some of you others suggested) and weld the tail light holes from there into this one to give them some better shape.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

This pic is with the fuel door Kentucky welded. If you can, imagine it with the bumper starting at the top of that black line there.(The lights are even, my lines are just off)
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

I wasnt sure if I would like it, but now that I have been able to invision it with the bumper, I think I will like it.

What do you all think? I am thick-skinned and can take any criticisms you may have to offer. Fire away!

[srh3trinity]

I like it alot, the curve on the 69 lights follows the body lines better than I would have thought.

[TonyL]

I like it.

here's a quick and dirty chop with a bumper.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[Rocko71]

I didnt think I would like it to start with, but I think it is gonna look really good! Im excited to see how its gonna turn out.

[JoshStratton]

I like it.

here's a quick and dirty chop with a bumper.


Oooo thanks! I was hoping to see something like that. I have about 20 hours in this thing so far and it is probably only 1/3 of the way there. I only go so slow because I dont have the best tools and I am learning as I go.

Rocco and srh3trinity --> thanks for the nice words.

[CAMAROBOY69]

Thats turning out great! I thought you said you didnt have any talent. You underestimated yourself and I am glad you decided to do it. I really really like it!! THanks for the update. :seizure:

[6'9"Witha69]

It's always good to see people step beyond their comfort zone and go for that item that will set them apart. Good job! It's going to turn out nice.

[Ralph LoGrasso]

I did not like the description of this when you first were talking about it either, but wow--that is going to look great when completed (already looks great in bare metal). Nice work, Josh.

[dhardison]

That looks good and will be sharp/unique when complete. I like the filler door as well. Nice job!

Dan

[JoshStratton]

Thank you all for the kind words!

Anyone have any suggestions or tips for improving it? I am kind of learning as I go.

[TonyL]

I think i'd recess (french?) in the fuel cap. Make a "cup" about 1 1/2 inch deep or however deep it needs to be, and leave a 1/2 inch gap around it. That way it wont look like a knob back there, (if it does.)

I'd paint the panel a contrasting color when you're done.

[Martin71RS]

Great plan, it will look very nice once finished I think!

Tony is right... you need a recessed "cup" for the fuel cap. The easy way would be to get a motorbike tank (for which the cap was intended) and cut the top out and weld it in your tailpanel...

good luck!
Martin

[JoshStratton]

You guys are right on! I was planning on frenching it, but I was going to make it just big enough to fit the filler. Do you think I should leave the 1/2 inch gap around it?

I REALLY like the idea of the contrasting color. Kind of like Bob's Cuda.

The bike idea is nice! I dont know if I want to spend the extra money though. This thing is getting expensive :) If I dont get a tank, I will still have about 500 bucks in this thing, including the tail lights and filler and the 69 panel I am gonna get to cut out the tail light holes.

[6'9"Witha69]

This thing is getting expensive :) If I dont get a tank, I will still have about 500 bucks in this thing, including the tail lights and filler and the 69 panel I am gonna get to cut out the tail light holes.
But the Unique/Wow factor is a value at twice the price!

[TonyL]

experiment with different size cups, make it just big enough to allow the hinge to operate nicely and for your fingers to fit around it. (if they need to to open it)

also, dont forget to graft a small pipe to the bottom of said "cup" to allow fuel to drain when you spill it, and for rain to have a place to go when parked.

[Jagarang]

also, dont forget to graft a small pipe to the bottom of said "cup" to allow fuel to drain when you spill it, and for rain to have a place to go when parked.

Holy crap BATMAN, thats a very important detail I would have totally forgotten if I was doing it!!

The devil is always in the details!

GREEEAATT advise Tony!!

[CAMAROBOY69]

You guys are right on! I was planning on frenching it, but I was going to make it just big enough to fit the filler. Do you think I should leave the 1/2 inch gap around it?

I REALLY like the idea of the contrasting color. Kind of like Bob's Cuda.

The bike idea is nice! I dont know if I want to spend the extra money though. This thing is getting expensive :) If I dont get a tank, I will still have about 500 bucks in this thing, including the tail lights and filler and the 69 panel I am gonna get to cut out the tail light holes.
$500 is not that bad at all for a priceless "one of a kind" look. Heck thats actually very cheap.

[JoshStratton]

experiment with different size cups, make it just big enough to allow the hinge to operate nicely and for your fingers to fit around it. (if they need to to open it)

also, dont forget to graft a small pipe to the bottom of said "cup" to allow fuel to drain when you spill it, and for rain to have a place to go when parked.

Wow. These are VERY good points and Kevin is right! I too would have never thought of that, at least not until I had gas all over my shoes. Actually, I will probably be doing something really custom with this as well. The filler is a little different than a car filler.

There are no hinges. The tab in the middle pulls down and then you turn and pull the center piece out. The seal is included in that center pull. I will try to get some pics of it taken apart.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Another update is that I am starting over. LOL. Last night when I was pounding the crap out of it trying to get the shape just right to fit over the bumper, it occured to me that I should have done it a completely different way, which would have made this MUCH MUCH easier. I am really glad I thought of it because if anyone else trys to do it my old way and it didnt turn out nice, I would have felt bad.

My solution: Pay someone else to do it. Just kidding!

Actually, I am going to cut out the face plate that holds the lights and filler in one big cut. Then I am going to cut and fab up the lips that go around it that will be used to bolt the whole thing to the body and then weld them to the back of the panel. This will prevent all that hammer banging and cutting and fitting. Much easier.

Its amazing what you learn AFTER the fact. :squint:

[CAMAROBOY69]

Its amazing what you learn AFTER the fact. :squint:
I know exactly what your talking about. As you might know, I recently did the entire conversion on the rear of my car for the Lamborghini exhaust and the frenched plate. Well I hated my original idea for the plate and ended up cutting everything all up again. Then I heard about the "Frenched" plate and love it. Lesson learned and I am much happier with the results now. Just like you will be with your project. :)

[HeadInTheClouds]

I was probably like most guys on here and wasnt sure about the idea at first. After I saw the pics Im liking the idea. I look forward to seeing it finished. Keep up the good work!

[awr68]

Looks great, I love the look!!

You might see if any members here have an old 67-68 camaro tail panel you could have, this would give you the recessed fuel door 'cup' that you could graft to your new tail panel and it would flush mount the new fuel cap....sorry but I just threw mine out this week!!

Keep up the good work!!

[71FirebirdLS1]

thats really looking sweet josh... it's starting to come together better than i thought too

[JoshStratton]

Well it would appear that plans have changed YET again. After MUCH deliberation and frustration (and probably lack of planning), I have found that this body style has a LOT of subtle quirks' that would have to be attacked before the tail panel I wanted would actually fit.

Not only did I have to hack into the lip of the tail panel, I would have to find a way to create a new bumper cover. I forgot that the 79 TA bumper had so many curves and my light panel would be REAL ugly with the curve I would have had to put in it.

Then came the debate on what to do for the bumper cover. The original bumper was made of plastic and would take a lot of fabrication to create a new one made of sheet metal. Not only that, but with the shell of the original bumper, it would weigh a TON.

So what did I decide to do? I went to town...and I think me likes it a lot.

I am going to create a deep verticle french for the license plate and i will do cut-outs for the exhausts.

What do you think of it?

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[F70t/a]

Man that looks F*cking sick bro!!!!!! What size gauge metal did you use? 16 gauge? Nice work

[dhardison]

I think that looks slick Josh, especially from the side! From the back the angled plate looks large (i.e. a lot of flat surface area), but I think by frenching the license plate and throwing in some cut-outs for the exhaust it'll break up the large flat area.

I like it! :twothumbs

[CAMAROBOY69]

THAT is a much better route. I thought it looked good before but this looks great. You will like the frenched license plate and its actually easier than most people realize. I have mine posted step by step on my site. Keep us posted with the updates. What are you going to do for a bumper? Are you just going to add reinforcement behind that tail panel where the bumper used to be?
I cant wait to see what you do with the exhaust.

[JoshStratton]

Thanks guys. Yeah I think the cut-outs will help a lot.

I actually used 20 gauge sheet metal. I am going to build some supports to put under it for the bumpers. Overall it will actually be lighter than the original bumper. It may not have the same protection as the original, but if I get rear ended I will have to shoot myself anyways. I have about 60 hours in this thing so far and I still have a LOT to do. It still needs finishing welds/grinding and a few areas need to be fit better.

[JoshStratton]

THAT is a much better route. I thought it looked good before but this looks great. You will like the frenched license plate and its actually easier than most people realize. I have mine posted step by step on my site. Keep us posted with the updates. What are you going to do for a bumper? Are you just going to add reinforcement behind that tail panel where the bumper used to be?
I cant wait to see what you do with the exhaust.

Actually I got the inspiration for the frenched license plate from you! :cheers: I liked it so much and it seemed like the best solution to my dilema.

I am still not sure what I will do about the exhaust because I am a LOOOONG way from getting one. (i dont even have an engine and tranny yet). I like the NASCAR exhaust, but I also like rounds.

[Beastus_Maximus]

Josh, I think you have a good idea here, the only thing I do see though is that it looks as though your piece of sheet metal there just goes down straight, if I was you I would consider making a wooden form to bend it around and get a sharper radius at the botom, if it is too angualr it wont look quite right, Look at the back end of a vette and observe how it rolls under. Also as Dan Hardson said, frenching in a licence plate and some exhaust outlets would be a damn good idea. I dont know what your plans for the suspention are, but with the way the back of that car is constructed if you switch over to a 4 link you will be able to run the exhaust right out there the leafs used to be, that will give you all the clearence you need. I am looking forward to seeing more of your car, I think it is going to be interesting.

[bretcopsey]

Josh, looks killer man!! I can't wait to see it with the lights, filler cap etc.

One small safety point though. When I looked at your pics the first thing that jumped out at me was the cinder blocks-it made my stomach turn. I have heard too many stories of those imploding. At the very least, if you don't have another option, I would turn them so that the hollow cores are vertical rather than horizontal and please don't work under the car like that.
:attn:

Ok, rant off! Now get that rear panel fabbed up, I want to see some progress pics!!

[JoshStratton]

Josh, looks killer man!! I can't wait to see it with the lights, filler cap etc.

One small safety point though. When I looked at your pics the first thing that jumped out at me was the cinder blocks-it made my stomach turn. I have heard too many stories of those imploding. At the very least, if you don't have another option, I would turn them so that the hollow cores are vertical rather than horizontal and please don't work under the car like that.
:attn:

Ok, rant off! Now get that rear panel fabbed up, I want to see some progress pics!!

LOL thanks! I am REALLY nervous about that too. I only did it temporarily for fitting the piece (the fabed sheet metal piece wouldnt go around them). I have since taken them out and put the steel supports back in. I was also using my engine hoist as a extra catch in case something did happen. I dont think I would ever have the juevos to go under that thing with those concrete blocks there.

[JoshStratton]

Josh, I think you have a good idea here, the only thing I do see though is that it looks as though your piece of sheet metal there just goes down straight, if I was you I would consider making a wooden form to bend it around and get a sharper radius at the botom, if it is too angualr it wont look quite right, Look at the back end of a vette and observe how it rolls under. Also as Dan Hardson said, frenching in a licence plate and some exhaust outlets would be a damn good idea. I dont know what your plans for the suspention are, but with the way the back of that car is constructed if you switch over to a 4 link you will be able to run the exhaust right out there the leafs used to be, that will give you all the clearence you need. I am looking forward to seeing more of your car, I think it is going to be interesting.

I am not quite sure what you mean by goes down straight. Do you mean the bottom of the piece, horizontally? I have bent lips in there so I could bolt it to the body from the bottom. Also, the sides curve in as well. I tried to make it so the rear piece would naturally follow the curve of the body.

Did you mean the curve at the bottom like this?

[Beastus_Maximus]

I am not quite sure what you mean by goes down straight. Do you mean the bottom of the piece, horizontally? I have bent lips in there so I could bolt it to the body from the bottom. Also, the sides curve in as well. I tried to make it so the rear piece would naturally follow the curve of the body.

Did you mean the curve at the bottom like this?

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

I meant a curve under like so.

Then doing the cutous and the frenching. I wouldnt do it like the vette because your back panel isnt as tall.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

I like your idea here, actually if it was me personally id stick the original tail lamps back in, put LED bulbs in them, and then replace the gas door with a piece of form and fit sheet metal and put your fancy filler cap in that. I think it would be much more attractive that way. I think the 69 tail lamps are actually just a bit small for the car, I dont know that your going to be happy with the way they go in, but the removal of the bumper is a neat idea.

Take a look around and find pics of the 70 camaro, look at how the back bumper went on those, I think you might like the way the body rolls under. your going for a some what similar effect.

[JoshStratton]

I am with you now. Last night a guy sent me a drawing of his idea as well. I will try and post it here later on. He had some good ideas as well.

After seeing your drawing, I realized something. I think it will all look different MUCH later on, when I finally get it on the ground. You will not see too much of that rear panel because it is going to be so low. Also, it isnt as big as it looks in that picture because the license plate is probably a little bigger than the one in your drawing.

EDIT: I put the plate next to the panel last night and it is a little closer to this size:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[JoshStratton]

*SIGH* Against my better judgement and the advise of several of you:

https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16829

At least I learned a LOT about fab work. :(

[formula]

wuss!!

[JoshStratton]

LOL actually I am quite happy with my decision. I keep thinking of different things I could do and Photoshop is about to become my best friend :)

[Todds69]

Hey Josh, I love the look of the metal work, but I just don't care for the '69 taillight choice. I just think needs to be similar to the original style but make a less dramatic change. I wish I could think of an example for you but I'm stumped. My 2 cents

[CAMAROBOY69]

Its really a shame to see you give up on this. I think it would have looked killer once finished. You will probably kick yourself when someone else does it. And you know someone will. Well good luck on the decision.

[JoshStratton]

Thanks guys. I am actually really happy with the decision. I have sold the tail lights, but I think I will still play around with the design and make it swapable (if i can get it up to par). I may actually look at an earlier set of Trans Am lights ie 70-73's. For now though, I am going to concentrate on getting the body back into shape.

I dont mind if someone else does it. I hope they do cause I would love to see it complete, should it get that far. I'd more than willing to help out as well. :)

Here is a tip for anyone who does do it. Today, I noticed that the structure of the rear of an 06 Mustang is erily similar to a 79 TA. You may actually be able to use it as a guide.

[67Steven]

That is the best looking rear end I have seen on those cars. Nice work.

Have you thought about the round tail lights from the 70 camaro? I think they would be big enough, and use 3 per side to fill up the space. Just a thought.

Steven

[JoshStratton]

I had not thought of that. I think I would look into using the 70-73 Trans Am tail lights. The 69's looked good, but the curve was off just a little bit. The reason I probably wouldnt use the round lights is because the gas filler I was using is round and I didnt know if I wanted that many circles on the back. I like having them broken apart a little.