aluminum head options for 461 stroker to get to 650hp Pontiac 400 block

[yellow1098Greg]

So my short block is almost finished with a fully forged 461 stroker from butler in a 4 bolt main block. I'm shooting for 650hp and I'm trying decide which top end to go with to get there. The suggested to me by butler were.......
Edlebrock bare castings
Round Port
340cc runners
87cc combustion chambers
2.19" intake valves
.77" exhaust valves
Flow rate: 340cfm @.600 lift
Titanium valves
Port matched

Now the price for these heads was around $3,500 which is a lot so I was trying to see where else I could find something comparable. I was going to check Kauffman racing and SD performance....but I just wanted to get your thoughts on the heads and if anyone knew of some better options hopefully cheaper that could get me where I'd like to be. Thanks as always!

[yellow1098Greg]

163619

163620

163621

[OLDFLM]

I'd go with what Butler recommends... SD performance is very reputable and will probably be around the same price.
KRE D-ports are nice, but I'd have SD do them for you if you go that route.

[yellow1098Greg]

One question I have is the difference between the D ports and the round ports....why would one be chosen over the other? Nice to see your in Orlando also if you know anyone selling any let me know or any other great parts? Haha

[OLDFLM]

The D-port are shaped like a "D" and the round ports are shaped like an "O"... LOL j/k Sorry I couldn't resist.

D-ports are cheaper and so are D-port headers... Round Ports offer more area for porting but are more expensive as are their headers.

imho if you get D's and O's to flow the same numbers there's really no difference, but an as cast 85cc round port will typically flow better (+5% @.500) so that's why they were preferred back in the day before porting/CNC porting.

fwiw I went with KRE 310cfm D-ports for my 440cid stroker with Heddman 28150 headers.

p.s. I'm on the SE side of Orlando.

[yellow1098Greg]

Hahaha I deserved that one.....but I did understand the actually shape difference...I just wasn't sure of the reason for the differences....the headers I am currently running or at least the ones I have a receipt for as they were already on the car is part # 520-3901 not sure why they say they fit an olds and a Pontiac....I live in Altamonte and would love to see your car sometime....

[OLDFLM]

Some Trans Ams came with a 403 Olds engine... those headers would fit that. But you have a Pontiac so you may want to look for something different.

I'm in Avalon Park... PM me and we can set something up most any weekend. The factory made more power with round ports so that's why the aftermarket copied those first... but now there are aluminum D-ports that will flow the same numbers as you know...

[yellow1098Greg]

So after talking with Kauffman today...they were talking about there high ports 80cc heads....how will those fit with my shaker and alittle concerned about the clearance against my brake booster with my billet Pontiac valve covers....any info on that?

[OLDFLM]

I have their 1.20x2.40 ports on my D-ports if that's what they're talking about... and I had their Northwind intake but it was too tall to clear my Formula hood so I went with a Tomahawk intake but had to have the tops of the runners welded to have enough material for the intake gaskets to seal, so keep that in mind. I'm also running TIPs tall BilletTech valve covers but I have manual brakes so I'm not sure if you will have a clearance issue to a brake booster.

[72blackbird]

So after talking with Kauffman today...they were talking about there high ports 80cc heads....how will those fit with my shaker and alittle concerned about the clearance against my brake booster with my billet Pontiac valve covers....any info on that?

KREs 365 cfm high ports will get you to 700 hp with your 461- but of course the all-important question is "what intake are you planning to run?". I put 330 cfm SD Performance 85cc E-heads on my 455- supposedly good for 650 hp, but that's with a 4.5" stroker crank. My 78 TA project needs an engine asap, so I will install it as is (factory crank for now).

Geno

[Skip Fix]

I guarantee the Hi ports won't fit with a Shaker unless you bolt it to the hood. Heck they raise the intake crossover where it does not mate to the timing cover!

650 HP is going to be a tough go with an intake to fit a Shaker. My 78's pump gas 455 is about 550-575 based on mph/wt. It has a Torker II that I massaged. An SD modified Holley intake(pattern for the Tomahawk) dyno'd the same.

A 2.40 intake is pretty tall my E head motors are only 2.300 and 2.350 on the 500" IA motor. Both the T2 and Tomahawk need welding for a 2.300 port.

Then you have to hook 650 HP! Good luck with that on the street.

[yellow1098Greg]

KRE quoted me on the high port 80cc's (hydraulic roller) and KRE north wind intake & crossover....not sure of the fit compared to the Torker 2

[72blackbird]

I guarantee the Hi ports won't fit with a Shaker unless you bolt it to the hood. Heck they raise the intake crossover where it does not mate to the timing cover!

650 HP is going to be a tough go with an intake to fit a Shaker. My 78's pump gas 455 is about 550-575 based on mph/wt. It has a Torker II that I massaged. An SD modified Holley intake(pattern for the Tomahawk) dyno'd the same.

A 2.40 intake is pretty tall my E head motors are only 2.300 and 2.350 on the 500" IA motor. Both the T2 and Tomahawk need welding for a 2.300 port.

Then you have to hook 650 HP! Good luck with that on the street.

SD Performance does use a ported T-II with some of their CNC ported E-heads. My SD 330 cfm E-heads' intake ports measure 1.145 x 2.26- I measured the intake ports on my T-II- they're 2.19 tall, so they might just have enough material for me to do a port match. I am putting the 455 in my 78 TA, so shaker clearance is a priority too. We'll see if the Road Paver delivers 600 hp.

Geno

[Skip Fix]

A T-II and a Holley Demon can work with teh Shaker. Larry Navarro's WFO air cleaner base can work or a "massaged" stock one can. Front float bowl adjustment screw can be massaged with a ball peen, rear one I cut out and welded in the notch from a cheep drop base air cleaner in the stock base. The Shaker will be a hair down in the back since a factory intake has a angle on the carb flange so I have a 1/4" in the front/1/2" in the back wedge spacer. Can't fit the Shaker seal on it but it fits.

Still betting a Hi Port and Northwind won't fit. Heck High ports and the T2 I don't think will fit.

[Alponcho]

I have Tiger Cub heads from Allpontiac (CNC ported Edlebrock RPMs, 350cfm) for the aluminum 535 going in my Formula. I was hoping I could get the Northwind to fit under stock hood (will be using Fast EZ EFI 2.0). A friend used these heads on a very mildly cammed 505 and I recall it made just under 600hp with one of those cheap Shootout (Tomahawk/Hurricane) intakes and the Fast FI. With a bigger cam, AP intake and carb, these heads made just shy of 700hp on another 505.

[Skip Fix]

Never had a set of Tiger heads in my hands but looking at how high the intake port placement is I would bet it raises the intake manifold also.

If you are wanting better hood clearance I would think SD's or some one else's "Wide Port" 340cfm flow round port Edelbrock heads would give you a better fit,especially if you are trying to fit a Formula hood ram air setup or a Shaker-unless the Shaker is bolted to the hood.

My 500" IA block made 695 HP with non Wideport E heads and a Victor.Lots of guys making more.

[Alponcho]

Never had a set of Tiger heads in my hands but looking at how high the intake port placement is I would bet it raises the intake manifold also.

If you are wanting better hood clearance I would think SD's or some one else's "Wide Port" 340cfm flow round port Edelbrock heads would give you a better fit,especially if you are trying to fit a Formula hood ram air setup or a Shaker-unless the Shaker is bolted to the hood.

My 500" IA block made 695 HP with non Wideport E heads and a Victor.Lots of guys making more.

Sorry, I did not mean to imply that Tiger Cub head are Tiger heads, they're not. They're just Allpontiac's CNC'd E heads.

[mean buzzen half dozen]

Edlebrock RPMs,

[Skip Fix]

Sorry, I did not mean to imply that Tiger Cub head are Tiger heads, they're not. They're just Allpontiac's CNC'd E heads.
I see, should be OK in height.

[MonzaRacer]

Edelbrocks aluminum heads for Pontiac are d port but actually have always flowed as good as RAM AIR IV factory race heads and those just blue printed can push 650 .
BUT remember Pontiacs don't need RPM to make torque and the name of the game in Pontiac is TORQUE not horsepower. Also if you push stock block too hard they split down valley! To much power means reinforcement or aftermarket blocks.

[68Formula]

OP probably has his heads already, but I'll add one point. I think the Edelbrock round port are still using inefficient old-school combustion chambers. While their RPM CNC and KRE heads use a modern heart-shaped chamber. These have better swirl and combustion characteristics, and require less ignition advance. I'd go with one of those choices.

[79T/Aman]

Edelbrocks aluminum heads for Pontiac are d port but actually have always flowed as good as RAM AIR IV factory race heads and those just blue printed can push 650 .
BUT remember Pontiacs don't need RPM to make torque and the name of the game in Pontiac is TORQUE not horsepower. Also if you push stock block too hard they split down valley! To much power means reinforcement or aftermarket blocks.

the term "D" port means something different when talking about Pontiacs.

[anguilla1980]

Curious what the OP ended up with. I have a Butler 461 for my 69 Firebird and need to keep the RA II set up so I'm limited to a Torker II intake and I'll be running a Holley Terminator Stealth.

My goal is 650-700ft/lb TQ.

I'll be adding billet main caps and using SD Perf's Deluxe Mega Brace kit to reinforce the lifter valley. My 400 block has had all the bells and whistles done to it in machining as did the rotating assembly.

[TANKMASTERJ]

You probably already know this but in case you don't. If your adding billet main caps they need go with the block and at least be check or most likely align bored .

[yellow1098Greg]

Hey guys I’m back....I am actually ordering the heads in the next week or so....I know it’s been awhile.....here is what I was gonna order from Butler
Pontiac 1967-79 400-455 (tel:1967-79 400-455) 87cc Edelbrock Round Port Heads, Ported to 340+CFM, Complete
ADD TiN Retainers +150.00
Intake was gonna be port matched Northwind from butler also

I was leaning towards the terminator also....but was thinking of stepping multiport setup with the terminator x

i also put the billet main caps on 400 4 bolt main block