69 Camaro 2" Drop Spindle Dilemma

[Wrobotech]

I'm finishing up my 69 Camaro build and have run into a bit of a problem.

I can only turn the steering wheel about 3/4 of a turn either direction and the tire hits the front of the fender.

I've seen several posts that say NOT to use 2" drop spindles on first gen Camaros.

Not sure where to turn... https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2019/01/confused-1.gif Any info and/or suggestions would be greatly appreciated

My car is currently equipped with the following

TRSD aka The Right Stuff Detailing front disk brakes with their 2'" drop spindles

Viking Coil Overs

OEM Control Arms - I plan to install a set of tubular upper and lower control arms. However, I'm told this will not resolve the turning problem.

Vision Torque 8.5" Wheel 4.5" BS -6mm OS

MT Street Comp Tires 245/40/18

I have moved around the alignment shims and gained a little more turnability but not enough.

Please let me know if you need more info or photos showing specific parts. Look forward to hearing from you soon.

[stab6902]

This might not be what you want to hear, but the best solution would be to run wheels with more backspacing to give you more tire to fender lip clearance.

Luckily, it looks like Vision Wheel makes the Torque wheel in an 18x8.5 with 5.1" backspacing as well, which would give you 0.6" more clearance at the fender. Hopefully that would be enough. Somebody running a similar setup could probably tell you if that size and offset would rub on the sub-frame at full lock. Looks like $142 each on Summit: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/vsw-1438861gmml1/overview/

[Wrobotech]

Thanks for the info Ryan. I considered trying that but as you mentioned it might cause the tire to rub the frame... I don't want to trade one problem for another.

That would be great if someone else on here was successful with the same setup and that backspacing. :)

[77thor]

Dump the drop spindles, they are nothing but problems on first gen Camaro's...

[Wrobotech]

Thanks for your reply 77Thor. That seems to be what most posts say. I haven't seen much explanation why though...

[dhutton]

I dunno. Ridetech uses drop spindles with good results. There can be issues with wheel interference with smaller diameter wheels.

Don

[Wrobotech]

Thanks for chiming in Don. I'm sure there are different applications where the 2" drop spindles work OK. Unfortunately the majority of posts and online research shows nothing good with first gen Camaros specifically 69's. Seems there is never an easy answer to modifying these cool old muscle cars...

[dhutton]

Your issues are not due to the drop spindles imho. Wheel backspacing and alignment are the issues imho....

Don

[Wrobotech]

Hi Don, good news with that scenario is less labor and $$$ :)

[markaaron80]

I'm building my 69 camaro and running Heidts pro G Front subframe with their 2 inch drop spindles. I just mocked up a 275-35-18 tire on a wheel fitment tool so I could order wheels. On my subframe I need my 18x9 wheel with 5.25 BS. The tire is close to my front swaybar at full lock, but I wanted to make sure I had as much clearance on the inner fenders.

[dhutton]

I'm building my 69 camaro and running Heidts pro G Front subframe with their 2 inch drop spindles. I just mocked up a 275-35-18 tire on a wheel fitment tool so I could order wheels. On my subframe I need my 18x9 wheel with 5.25 BS. The tire is close to my front swaybar at full lock, but I wanted to make sure I had as much clearance on the inner fenders.

I am surprised that is enough backspacing. Was the suspension at ride height when you did the measuring?

Don

[c4racer2]

The tru-turn first gen cars seem to be running 5.5-6” bs with a 275-315 tire size. FWIW.

[dhutton]

The tru-turn first gen cars seem to be running 5.5-6” bs with a 275-315 tire size. FWIW.

And a lot of negative camber if I remember right.

Don

[markaaron80]

I am surprised that is enough backspacing. Was the suspension at ride height when you did the measuring?

Don

Yes, it was at ride height. All of the tire and maybe 1/2 inch of the front rim was behind the front fender. Fairly low in my opinion. This was with a 18x9 wheel. So an 18x10 would add another 1/2 inch of backspacing to that.

[CliffsBlueCamaro]

The Vision Torque 18x8.5 with 5.1" Backspacing should be just fine, but I'm not 100% sure with the stock control arms. That backspacing would work for sure with almost any aftermarket control arms. I also suspect that there could be something going on with your alignment.

[Wrobotech]

Thanks again to everyone for responding. Just wanted to share a quick update: I added several alignment shims to the OEM control arms which provided negative camber and positive caster. Listed below are results...

Left turn to the steering stop and does not hit the front of the fender or rear part of the wheel well on either side but it's very close. Also, the inside of tire just barely rubs the frame when its on the steering stop. No big deal. However, not sure but I don't any more backspace will help me?

Right turn is still rubbing the front fender on the driver side and the rear wheel well on passenger side.

Plan on tweaking the shims a bit more... Will report more results soon :)

[dhutton]

Thanks again to everyone for responding. Just wanted to share a quick update: I added several alignment shims to the OEM control arms which provided negative camber and positive caster. Listed below are results...

Left turn to the steering stop and does not hit the front of the fender or rear part of the wheel well on either side but it's very close. Also, the inside of tire just barely rubs the frame when its on the steering stop. No big deal. However, not sure but I don't any more backspace will help me?

Right turn is still rubbing the front fender on the driver side and the rear wheel well on passenger side.

Plan on tweaking the shims a bit more... Will report more results soon :)

More negative camber, you will likely need a lot. Less caster on the side that is rubbing on the rear.

Don

[Wrobotech]

Thanks for the suggestion Don. Some of my research shows that 2" drop spindles allow for additional camber with OEM control arms. Does that make sense or am I misunderstanding how it works?

[Josh@Ridetech]

Dump the drop spindles, they are nothing but problems on first gen Camaro's...
Not necessarily.

Thanks for your reply 77Thor. That seems to be what most posts say. I haven't seen much explanation why though...
I have an explanation below for you as to why they're not all problems. :twothumbs

Your issues are not due to the drop spindles imho. Wheel backspacing and alignment are the issues imho....

Don
Correct. At this point, it sounds more like a wheel fitment issue. That's also a little bit taller of a tire diameter than we see these days.

The drop spindle with our kit is designed to do two things:
- Creates negative camber gain because of the taller design
- Lower the car 2"

Because we're using this spindle to get the lowered stance instead of a shorter stroke shock, we gain ride quality and handling by not sacrificing shock travel. It's all set up around factory track width as well. The only chance of someone changing track width with our kit is dependent on what brake kit they choose (which could also be part of your issue with your current setup).

If you're wanting to change to a tubular arm setup, look into our Strongarms, spindles, and coilovers. On the control arms, we've moved the balljoints for more caster, put in delrin bushings for smoother movement of the arms, and have the drop pocket so we can run the longer shock for a better ride. From everything you're saying, I would venture to guess is more of a backspacing/tire height issue though. I still believe that would need to be addressed as well, especially if you're wanting the lowered stance.

[dhutton]

Thanks for the suggestion Don. Some of my research shows that 2" drop spindles allow for additional camber with OEM control arms. Does that make sense or am I misunderstanding how it works?

I think it depends on the height of the drop spindle and where your ride height is. But I am not a suspension guru.

Just stack up the shims and see what you can get.

Don

[Wrobotech]

Hi Josh,

Glad to hear from you - I'm researching control arms and seriously considering the Strong Arms. Emailed Ridetech sales with questions - waiting for reply.

Just curious why tire diameter is a potential problem? Some stock tire diameters were closer to 27" The MT tires on my car are 25.70"

I measured the wheels they are closer 4.75 BS The inside of tire just barely rubs the frame when its on the steering stop. Seems like more backspace will cause tire to rub the frame and reduce turnability.

The ride height is about 25" measured center of front wheel opening/fender.

Another piece of the puzzle worth mentioning is the TRSD disc brake kit relocates the wheels out 3/8" on each side.

Let me know if you have any questions or need more info. Look forward to hearing from you soon.

[Josh@Ridetech]

Hi Josh,

Glad to hear from you - I'm researching control arms and seriously considering the Strong Arms. Emailed Ridetech sales with questions - waiting for reply.

Just curious why tire diameter is a potential problem? Some stock tire diameters were closer to 27" The MT tires on my car are 25.70"

I measured the wheels they are closer 4.75 BS The inside of tire just barely rubs the frame when its on the steering stop. Seems like more backspace will cause tire to rub the frame and reduce turnability.

The ride height is about 25" measured center of front wheel opening/fender.

Another piece of the puzzle worth mentioning is the TRSD disc brake kit relocates the wheels out 3/8" on each side.

Let me know if you have any questions or need more info. Look forward to hearing from you soon.

No problem at all, I'll be happy to help out. The brakes adding to the track width and possibly having the wrong backspace wheels could definitely be your issue.

I read your tire size wrong earlier, it wouldn't be that big of a deal, that's my fault. One of the reasons I believe it's a backspacing/track width issue is that when we built our Streetgrip kits, we had the kit on a '69 Camaro that ran 235/45-17's on the front (25.3" OD). Our fender to ground measurement at ride height was 23.5" (1.5" lower than yours) and the car had full turning radius with no rubbing at all.

If you'd like, you can email me directly with the questions you have! My email is [email protected]

By the way, your car looks very nice!

[Wrobotech]

Thanks for the info and compliment Josh. I will give you a call later today.

[David Pozzi]

Not necessarily.

I have an explanation below for you as to why they're not all problems. :twothumbs

Correct. At this point, it sounds more like a wheel fitment issue. That's also a little bit taller of a tire diameter than we see these days.

The drop spindle with our kit is designed to do two things:
- Creates negative camber gain because of the taller design
- Lower the car 2"

Because we're using this spindle to get the lowered stance instead of a shorter stroke shock, we gain ride quality and handling by not sacrificing shock travel. It's all set up around factory track width as well. The only chance of someone changing track width with our kit is dependent on what brake kit they choose (which could also be part of your issue with your current setup).

If you're wanting to change to a tubular arm setup, look into our Strongarms, spindles, and coilovers. On the control arms, we've moved the balljoints for more caster, put in delrin bushings for smoother movement of the arms, and have the drop pocket so we can run the longer shock for a better ride. From everything you're saying, I would venture to guess is more of a backspacing/tire height issue though. I still believe that would need to be addressed as well, especially if you're wanting the lowered stance.

If switching to a disc brake drop spindle from factory drum brakes, the wheel will be moved outwards 1/2" to 5/8". The drum brake hub has less outward offset.

[Wrobotech]

Hi David,

Yes indeed another 3/8" with the TRSD kit installed on my car. This part of the project reminds me of a mathematics story problem :)

[bruce69camaro]

Hi guys,

Reading this thread just gave me a bad feeling in my guts.
Although I don't have a touring car, I am in the process of bringing my 69 Camaro that I used for drag racing and putting it back onto
the street.
I have a CPP manual disc brake setup on my car and I just ordered 2" drop spindles for it.
I'm running a 15 x 3.5" rim up front on 28" tall MT tires.
I'm reading in this thread that the OP can't turn his wheels without hitting the fender.
Can anyone tell me if my setup may or may not have the same results as the OP?

Thank you
Bruce